I want to change the Butt Stock on my Colt HBAR. What do I need, Mil Spec or Commercial and for future ref.,what is the difference?

Thanks
Steve

Mil-Spec 1.148" tube diameter

Commercial 1.168" tube diameter

Mil spec is the better option and is what Colt runs.

If you're starting from scratch and have no other collapsible stocks, it doesn't matter one bit. If you already have collapsibles on other guns, I'd try to be consistent with those.

The Milspec diameter (not to be confused with actually being a "Milspec" extension) is actually smaller and thus slightly weaker, at least in theory. Again, there is no difference on a practical level.

With that said, I'd go Milspec.

How is it being smaller in diameter weaker? Am I brain farting here or not?

For a given wall thickness, a .020 larger diameter tube, although slightly heavier, will be slightly stronger. It would be a trivial amount.

I've never measured the ID of a commercial tube, are they the same as a mil-spec tube? I would think since they use common springs and buffers the ID specs would be the same. That would give you .020 more wall thickness(.010 per side), which would be quite a bit stronger.

Nope, the smaller mil spec tube is stronger than the commercial. Has to do with how it's made.

Commercial is cheaply made and the threads aren't full point, they snap off right behind the castle nut. And yes I have seen em break not just something I'm guessing about here.

This is what I was thinking...

That's a blanket statement that is not accurate in all cases. I can provide you with commercial diameter extensions that are absolutely identical to the mil spec extension in every way but diameter. Additionally, the vast majority of the extensions that are commercially available as "milspec" extensions are not actually made to meet the specs.

I am sitting a few yards from a several thousand true "milspec" extensions that are headed to the military as I type this, btw.

That must be why all high end AR's have milspec extensions?

Blanket statement it is. I stand by initial statement.

I have no doubt other companies would make a mil spec sized but commercially made extension. That's why I deal with known goods.

Most commercial diameter extensions are made from 6061-T6 aluminum at best. Some mil-spec diameter extensions are made from 6061-T6 aluminum. Proper quality mil-spec extensions are made from 7075-T6 aluminum. People talking about mil-spec receiver extensions often only think of the diameter and not the material composition.

I agree that not all milspec dimension tubes are the same and that a poorly made milspec tube is as bad or worse than a commercial but the ones made that are used by LMT, BCM, Colt and a few others are not worse than commercial tubes.

This explains it alot better than I did.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101

And FWIW, my favorite is LMT. I have of course used Colt and VLTOR as well. These are mil spec.

Thanks all, I think. I'll figure it out.

I wasn't referring to any specific items, just a theoretical comparison to answer a previous post, assuming equal materials and machining quality. In a perfect world, both tubes made out of the same thing and machined using the same standards and methods, the bigger tube wins for strength. That's just physics.

Obviously in the real world, that doesn't happen as often as it should.

Understood, I just used the quick reply and was actually replying to greentimber.

In a perfect world you would be correct, same material only thicker would be stronger but the commercial tubes used by BM RR dpms and the like are compromised at the threads and possibly the material. Another corner cut...

Sorry for the confusion.

No problem.

You'd think someone would take the oppurtunity to make a "bettter than mil-spec" tube for the commercial stock owners out there.

Evidently Greentimber knows of one as good, maybe he will share the mfg.

But if I were gonna replace one, it'd be with an LMT mil spec tube.

From the ground up on a new rifle or build, I would too, but if you had, say a MagPul stock with a commercial tube, of the low quality type, it might be nice to just replace the weak piece, instead of having to replace the stock as well.

If you're ready to buy 5,000 or more I'll give you my number.

LOL, nope, I have no use for commercial sized tubes as there is no commercial sized SOPMOD stock.

Why would anyone bother making a good commercial sized tube with no good commercial stocks? (excluding the CTR/MOE)

Just a question...how many here that just have to have everything "mil-spec" are "mil-spec" themselves? Probably not many...

I was not in the service so I guess I'm not mil spec and neither are my AR's.

Mil spec is just a standard, some individual parts are as good as they get while other mil spec parts of the same gun, there are better options.

So let's look at it a different way. How many here go through life demanding something that might work?

I want my stuff to work, there is a difference between a range toy and a good gun. Sadly some people are like democrats and they know so much that just is not so.

Let's see if I have this right- if an AR has a commercial buffer tube it's not going to work? PS- Please leave politics out of the discussion.

I am sorry I offended your people.

No problem, they aren't my people. I'm an independent who can think for himself and doesn't need anyone to tell me how to think. BTW, you didn't answer my question.

MILSPEC is such an overused and misunderstood term. A lot of manufacturers of what I consider to be substandard guns claim they are MILSPEC.

One simple example:

Take the takedown detent pin from a M4, M16, or a COLT LPK and one from a Bushmaster or DPMS LPK and look at them. The military and COLT pin is rounded on both ends and can be installed either way, the DPMS and Bushmaster are Flat on one end and will only work one way. They are not MILSPEC. Will this particular part make any difference in the operation of the firearm? Most likely not but it is not a MILSPEC part and neither is the firearm. This is just one of the many shortcuts they take to build guns cheaper. There are many other parts that can be likewise compared and if you can't see the difference its because you aren't paying attention or don't want to see it. Anymore MILSPEC is nothing more than a gimmick term used to sell guns.

The first Armorer school I attended was as a Private in 1982 and although I only worked as a unit armorer for a short period the things I learned were invaluable throughout my career. As a Small Arms Master Gunner I handled thousands of M16s and M4s and there is a difference between them and your Bushmaster, Oly, DPMS, Stag etc. There are some top flight makers out there that I feel are the equal or better of the military guns but the $700 ones you buy at BigMart aren't it. Will the cheaper guns work, maybe most of the time but that's not good enough for me. Sorry.

And yes I am MILSPEC Retired.

Very well said.

The saddest part is the price of the non mil spec guns is getting so close to a Colt for example due simply to internet "+1's on my gun is just as good as".

I add a few things to my guns that aren't mil spec but serve my purpose better.

Well, since I'm retired SF, I guess I qualify as "milspec", but a friend of mine doesn't. He's never been in the service, but he's been a nationally-ranked 3-gun competitor for quite a number of years and he walks around all day on spent brass that he didn't pay for. He says most of the hoopla about "milspec" is BS, and he has no qualms about going to high dollar matches with DPMS components in a gun. Of, course he's shot the piss out of said gun and know's it'll run. The guns either work or they don't, out of the box. The standard Bushmaster Armorer's Course projected service life for all the various parts applies to all AR's, even the "milspec" ones. That means springs, bolts etc have to be changed periodically. So much for some people's theories.

I have the misfortune of having to maintain 19 Bushmaster rifles. They broke bolts at a very low round count, Under 5000. I contacted Bushmaster on what they considered a reasonable service life and these weren't even close. So much for that theory. By the way all parts in the guns have been replaced by COLT parts and now they run fine. Of course tightening the carrier keys to proper torque and staking the bolts and replacing half the barrels that didn't have proper headspace from the factory helped also. Bushmaster is a Joke.

All parts are not created equal and neither are all guns.

For recreational guns I don't get to wraped up about some parts as you can see in the post about my 3 gun build. For a duty gun substandard parts are not acceptable. My opionion for what its worth.

3 Gun targets don�t shoot back.

"Under 5000 rds" could be one round or 4999. About how many "under 5000"? Are you telling me those barrels were still accurate with 5K rds through them. You don't think the barrels needed changing? If you did, you put a used bolt in an old barrel?

all your arguments are academic,it can work all the time and not work one time and its now an expensive club. I want a gun whose parts are tested per a military protocol. Buy what you want, I had a RRA and a Bushmaster once myself. Knowledge of a stream of failed remington 7400 etc. semi autos over my lifetime has left an indelible mark on my conscious.

Well, Jimmy, by refusing to answer my questions, you have in fact answered them. I will from now on refer to you as Walter.

Whatever, what have you ever done or been where I should give a chit about what you think? Let me know so I can care.

You do know who Walter is, don't you? Walter Mitty. He's just like you, a salesman who daydreams a lot to make up for his boring life. He "needs" everything just like the military because he has fantasies about the world going to hell and him strapping on his chest rig and thigh rig and saving the world for decent people. I meet them every day at the gun range.

tell us about yourself uphiker, are you someone that we should give a chit what you think? You anyone special?

Nope, just a normal guy with a few guns and no surrealistic fantasies. Like Clint Smith said in his column a few months ago when he was talking about the overweight, out of shape, tacticool people who sometimes came to his center- "be who you are, not who you imagine you are".

If i was building for hunting i could care less if it is Mil-Spec or Commercial, but if building for a duty weapon i would prefer Mil-Spec because they are built stronger and can take more abuse. For the average guy the difference between the Mil-S and Commercial is about 25 .00

My first AR15 was a RRA A2 Tasc rifle. It was nice and I never had any trouble with it. It wasn't Mil-Spec. I sold it because I wanted one with a A4 flat top so I could use the removable carry handle and some type of optic. Last month I bought a Stag complete lower and upper with the Plus Package. This one is Mil-Spec. I went with the Plus Package because I'm keeping this one for good. So I wanted to get all the parts and QC checks that go with a Mil-Spec AR15. If I was only going to use it at the range and/or hunting, Mil-Spec wouldn't matter.

NYH1.

Overweight, out of shape, and tacticool with a cheap Colt.

does it look like I imagine I am someone else uphiker?

That scope doesn't look mil-spec. It'll probably fail on you.
PS-I never had a man post a picture of himself on the internet for me before. I think that I'll be scarred for life.

why all the fuss between you two over a buffer tube. If if fails just replace it. If you are going to war then carry a spare.

No need for spare if going to war, plenty of guns laying around for the taking in war if yours croaks...
I always said if its a SHTF war type thing that happens, my 22 will net me whatever I need.. guns, ammo etc...

I am not sure how it got off on buffer tubes. My point was on construction regards testing, material, etc and in general, I think I may have a commercial buffer tube on one of my rifles.

In my humble opinion, to many people get hung up on Milspec, either your gun will run, (and has proven it will run) or it won't. To carry on that my gun will last longer, kill more people, and never fail during a SHTF situation, is ridiculous at best. If my primary weapon fails during a SHTF situation, I will simply acquire another weapon, and shoot it, till it fails or runs out of ammo. I guess what I'm saying is, you have NO idea when your gun could fail!

I just like quality stuff but this is getting a bit rediculous.

If someone is ok with a cheap gun, then that's fine but I don't see too many people comparing a Remington plastic stock to a McMilian... It is what it is.

Common sense isn't allowed here!

I like quality stuff too. What I'm saying is our "quality" stuff could malfunction at the worst time. If that happens we will just have to deal with it. That McMillan stock could get run over by the jeep on safari, and the Remington plastic stock didn't. Now who has the more functional gun. If "Joe Smith's" Bushmaster/dpms/oly has gone bang every time he pulled the trigger, then he's probably got a good one. Your AR either works or it doesn't, if it doesn't, get it fixed, or replaced with one that does.

I did have the end of a no-name buffer tube I ordered out of shotgun news many years ago just snap right off on the second or third shot. My first clue should have been the fact that the anodizing on it was nearly purple.

Truth of the matter is, the military needs to change its Milspec, which is over 40 yrs. old. There are much better materials available today, than there were 40 yrs. ago. Does anyone think that 4150 is the best steel available for a bbl. today? It's not, but it's Milspec.

I vote we equip our Seal teams with Oly built M-4's, I mean if it runs it runs why spend that extra money on all that testing and specifying steel types, chrome lining etc.

The minimum standards for any M4-pattern carbine should be:
1) 4150 (or better) barrel steel
2) HPT and MPI barrel
3) Chrome-lined chamber and bore
4) 5.56 chamber
5) Properly staked key on an M16 carrier
6) Shot peened, HPT and MPI bolt
7) Proper extractor spring/insert
8) "Milspec" (or 1.14" OD) receiver extension

I think the Seals are equipped even better than that. I'm talking about average shooters, that are constantly told their guns are no good because one or more parts aren't milspec. If it breaks, replace the part that broke and continue on.

In the beginning of this thread, it was asked which should the op get, commercial or mil spec for a Colt. I said mil spec cause it was better and what Colt used. Not a single poster here can prove that to be wrong.

The problem I see is a standard is set but companies who cut corners don't meet the standard yet I'm told I'm at fault for explaining there is a difference.

No you have the correct answer. He has a Colt, which comes with a milspec tube and should be replaced with the same. I was mainly talking about some of the folks on AR-15 that constantly chastise people about their choice of AR. If it works and is 100% reliable, in my opinion, it's a good one. If a part breaks, replace, or upgrade if necessary and go back to shooting.

always buy the best you can afford in parachutes, life vests, and firearms.

Ok. So I need to buy two complete adjustable butstocks with tube and springs. What do I buy? To say this thread has confused the [bleep] out of me is an understatement.

O

What's confusing? You can buy a Mil Spec LMT or VLTOR that is as good as you're gonna get or you can buy a cheap commercial tube and take your chances...

I'll bet the price difference is less than $20. you decide.

Buy whatever you think will work for you. Some people choose to spend a few more dollars to insure top quality parts. Some dont. Its up to the end user. All my receiver extensions are BCM. They are noticeably better quality than any of the commercial extensions I have replaced.

I agree. That's why I went with a Stag with the Plus Package. My FFL hooked me up really good. I have a total of $844 invested, that includes tax and shipping. It has all the material and QC checks that all the AR's on the "so called chart" that guys on other sites consider biblical. In fact, Stag w/Plus Package is on "the chart"!

NYH1.