I have my Colt 6920, a couple 6.8 builds, now I want a AR-10 in 338 Fed. I don't know much about the variations besides the DPMS and Armalite parts don't interchange (I think?). I was planning on building one from a Mega upper & lower but may just go for a S&W MP10 and shoot it as a 308 until I find the 338 barrel I want. My question is, are there certain barrels that will and won't work with the MP10 upper or should I be able to buy any 338 Fed AR barrel and he set?

Zero personal experience. A friend worked for a company in Iraq (early) and use an Armalite 308 off of a lot of rooftops, even out to 600yd using M118 with a Kenton turret. No issues with it.

Glenn Zediker says that AR10 are fragile, based off of their early use in the national matches. Of course, that is based on 20yo guns.

There isn't the same level of standardization with AR10's as with AR15's. You go with some no name stuff you may have something obselete in not too many years.

If a 308 will suit your needs, look to the Rock River Arms LAR-8. It's a much better gun then either the DPMS, R-25, or S&W MP10. You get a much more refined gun for the same basic money. It is also available in 7-08 and 243 if that suits your needs.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=402

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=257

The MP10 may not work with DPMS barrels and bolts, I know for fact it won't work with DPMS uppers.

I'll send you a detailed PM on Monday of what I have found with the MP10.

I don't recommend the RRA for what you are trying do.

Thanks for the fast input guys, I'm really not sure where to start since there are a few specific routes to go. Like stated earlier, not being able to find certain parts because of an outdated or obsolete design is the scary aspect, that's what I really like about the basic AR15, its customizable to no end and I can find any part I need easily. I just need to go with the AR10 design that will most likely be around down the road (Armalite?).
Anyway, thanks again. Keep the ideas flowing!

Cory

Please Explain? No gunsmith or barrel maker can make a 338fed or 358win barrel to "screw on" a LAR-8? They do mount up like any other AR.

Sure, the barrel can be made, and I'm assuming you know the mechanics on the RRA .308 platform much better than I do for installation.

But, RRA uses their own AR design in the .308 platform, their parts only fit their rifles...a common problem in the .308ers.

IMO, it's a Ford-Chevy argument, I like the MP-10, you like the RRA.

Let it be known, I bought a SCAR 17S, and I even have magazines for it!

[quote=AH64guy]Sure, the barrel can be made, and I'm assuming you know the mechanics on the RRA .308 platform much better than I do for installation.

But, RRA uses their own AR design in the .308 platform, their parts only fit their rifles...a common problem in the .308ers.

IMO, it's a Ford-Chevy argument, I like the MP-10, you like the RRA.

[/quote

Actually, it's more of a Cadillac-Ford focus argument. A semi-custom gun like the LAR-8 is heads and shoulders above a mass produced gun like the S&W MP-10/DPMS.

I've owned both Caddy's and Fords. So you mean it's like the Ford is just as good but with the Caddy you get to pay more for parts when it breaks down?

Just go here:

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.as...ory=f4bd4a13-55d1-41aa-aea0-49488ec48776

and order your Model AR10T .338 Federal from Armalite. It will have a heavy stainless barrel, and will shoot well. Just be warned they are relatively heavy rifles.

You are correct that Armalite barrels & uppers do not interchange, but parts are readily available. Lower parts, like triggers and stocks take regular AR15 components. The magazines are proprietary to Armalite, but they are not hard to obtain, nor especially expensive.

Armalite does have a lower that accepts PMAGs, but it is only available in a light .308 carbine, and the heavy barreled SASS .308 model.

Yeah they're very heavy rifles if you plan on hunting them like I do. LGS has 2 Armalite AR-10's in .260 Rem and I think the only way I'd buy one is if I could lighten it up and get a light or standard 338 barrel.
I realize LMT is spendy but I always see their ad in mags for their rifle that can swap calibers easily and 338 Fed is an option, it'll likely be over my price range though.

And I do realize any AR-10 or variation is going to be 9+ pounds but that Armalite felt like it was 12+ pounds.
I'm hoping to stay at 10.5 # or under including 10 rounds and a VX-3 1.5-5X20. I think it can be done.

That's because it was 12+ lbs Any of the AR10 "T's" are straight bull barrels, all the way out to the gas block, then they're smaller straight profiles. The .260 and .338 are 22", the .308's are 20"

This one is right at 11 lbs including a Troy sling (not shown) empty. The barrel is a 18 inch Rainier Arms/Shilen Ultramatch, with Vortex hider.



I do have a Armalite 16" stainless barrel, which shot reasonably well ~1.5MOA, and is lighter than the Rainier. If you build I'd let you have it at a reasonable price.

A CTS stock, 16" barrel and A2 hider would approach than 10.5 lb number. Lots of metal in those actions, and they'll never be lightweight.

the RRA LAR-8 predator is 8.5pounds with a heavy match grade stainless barrel.

maybe, but the ford isn't too cheap to fix either , and it cost 1/3 the money of the Cadillac when you buy it. In the case of AR style rifles, the S&W MP-10 sells for $1400+ dollars. The RRA LAR-8 Pradator sells for $1500. So which would be the better value? the OVER PRICED S&W, or the priced correctly RRA? When you factor in all the premium features on the RRA guns, why would you buy anything else unless you were going to buy a Armelite, Lewis or Larue?

I won't buy a RR simply due to the fan boy mentality.

No one is as blind as the one who refuses to see.

Glad to know you also have money to burn. Anyone that thinks a DPMS or S&W compares to a RRA, isn't thinking correctly.

I'd be curious what they are calling "heavy". Armalite's "heavy" 7.62 barrels are 1" diameter under the handguard, and 7/8" at the gas block.

FWIW I was real interested in a RRA Predator a while back, and checked one out (a 5.56 model) The bolt did not function smoothly and I wasn't very impressed with it.

I've said before, my 308 is a bolt gun. I've been down the AR-10 road before and none of the new offerings impress me.

Keep those blinders snugg.

I have had a DPMS LR-308 AP-4 for about 4 years now, and while 'basic' is a good term to describe it, it has been a very good performer overall. One thing I would seriosuly advise is to budget accordingly for a proper trigger. if you do this, even my 'budget' AR-10 will shoot 1.5 MOA at 200 yds with factory Remmy 150 gr. ammo. I know because I have done it repeatedly, and I am not a world class shot, this is what it does off a quality Harris bipod. Here are a few observations based on my experience with the gun thus far:

I have the gun with a 16" barrel, this puts factory 150's at about 2500fps, plenty for me. Negative of this is the considerable BANG, although the DPMS factory FH on it does a fair job of pushing the blast out away from you.

The gun is very heavy. I have and ACE stock, and a DPMS free-float carbine length tube, long with a scope mount of unknown make (although a good one at that). My gun is 11.5 pounds with 6 rnds of ammo, VX-3 #.5x10 scope, and magpul mag installed. Try dragging that when you are dragging a deer (where I hunt, ATV's are not allowed, only un-powered hand carts, aka-SC public land). It is a pain, to put it mildly

In the next year or so, I intend to replace the ACE stock with a Magpul locking/adjustable, and suggest you seriously look at it for yours too, like this:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...llapsible-ar-15-lr-308-carbine-synthetic
I have one on my AR-15 and love it. I am also considering getting a carbon fiber HG, and again, so should you. Here is one I would like to have, although I admit it is super-pricey:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...guard-quad-rail-dpms-lr-308-carbon-fiber

I am not tyring to start a fight, but when I got this gun, at the time I also had an M1A Brush gun, and the AR's ergonomics and ability to eat just any ammo (M1A op-rod issues are real) made it a natural, so when I had to sell one to help pay for wifey's surgery, that choice was an easy one!

Anyway, there it is. PM me if you have any other questions I can help with

My LAR-8 predator barrel measures .740 at the muzzle and .875 at the gas block.

did you fire the RRA? I'd be more worried about function, accuracy, and reliability. I have friends who own Larue guns and they were impressed with my RRA guns.

The RRA LAR-8 comes with a 2 stage match trigger and winter trigger guard. That goes to my point about getting a semi-custom RRA gun for a basic gun price.



[/quote] The gun is very heavy. I have and ACE stock, and a DPMS free-float carbine length tube, long with a scope mount of unknown make (although a good one at that). My gun is 11.5 pounds with 6 rnds of ammo, VX-3 #.5x10 scope, and magpul mag installed. Try dragging that when you are dragging a deer (where I hunt, ATV's are not allowed, only un-powered hand carts, aka-SC public land). It is a pain, to put it mildly. [/quote]




My LAR-8 Predator weighs 10.5 pounds field ready with the RRA one piece scope mount, 3-9x50 Bushnell elite 3200 scope, nylon web sling, 20" heavy match barrel, factory stock, factory aluminum mid-length hand guard, metal 10 round mag loaded with 6 rounds of 150gr ammo.

I also own a 308 bolt gun, but My LAR-8 will shoot with any 308 I've seen at the range.

I'm sure the RR's are fine but I prefer AR's to be light and "alive", that's why I stick with 15's and carbines.

Here's my 308, (it weighs a little over 9 pounds) and a 5 shot 200 yard group that I messed up on.


I've owned and shot a couple of 16" AR-10's and shot a few really accurate 20" Target models, all Armalites. Had some over gassed issues when I tried to run a 150 gr bullet over 2750 fps in the carbines and the 20" guns were just too heavy to hunt with. Stuff a heavier high BC bullet in there and that's where the bolt guns win.

I went and looked RR's heavy barreled gun (varminter) weighs 10.4 pounds so its about the same as the other offerings. The Predator weighing 8.6 would be a good way to go if that's what you wanted.

Not much but, I ran an older Armalite AR-10T for a lot of years, it was a nice shooting brute, and never failed me, the 175 gr Sierras and Varget were it's favorites.

Gunner

Yeah the two I seen in person were the heavy 260 Armalites. When I hunt I'm usually in the stand from day break until 2-3 hours later then I'm walking until about 330 then sitting again so light is right for me. I should have kept my 338 Fed Kimber Montana! Although.... the guy that bought it was SUPPOSED to send the barrel back as part of the deal so I could build another one but of course he TOLD me he was going to keep the barrel after he got the gun.......
The 16" is a 338 Fed barrel?

Now I'm still learning so don't bite but, what's so semi custom about the Rock River compared to the others? I know the S&W comes with basic furniture but I don't really care what any AR type rifle comes with unless it's a ACS stock and Troy handguard since I'd be switching to them anyway. Is the BCG coated differently or a better barrel? $100 isnt much more for a better gun so maybe I should look at RRA's semi customs.

I just really don't see what makes them any better than DPMS or any other. I've had a S&W MP15 OR and it was as good as my Colt LE6929 is, I have a 6.8 SPC I build with primarily DPMS parts and it's awesome. I'm just saying if the only semi custom part about the RRA is having a better than "normal" stock or handguard that really doesn't matter since I'll be putting what I know I like on their anyway.

I do like that DPMS is a local company. Their HQ is less than 45 min from my house....

I like my DPMS.

Semi-custom because you can pick from a long list of options to customize your gun as you see fit, right from the factory.

Semi-custom because you get custom type features like:

air gauged barrels

cryogenically treated barrels

factory lapped barrels

two stage match triggers

winter trigger guard

accuracy guarantees

factory hard cases

Hogue grips

free=floated hand guards

and lifetime warrenty

[quote=dubyaThe 16" is a 338 Fed barrel? [/quote]

No, it's a .308

Get a dpms gun of your liking and enjoy an accurate, reliable, and great all around ar platform.

My LAR-8 Predator weighs 10.5 pounds field ready with the RRA one piece scope mount, 3-9x50 Bushnell elite 3200 scope, nylon web sling, 20" heavy match barrel, factory stock, factory aluminum mid-length hand guard, metal 10 round mag loaded with 6 rounds of 150gr ammo.

The RRA LAR-8 comes with a 2 stage match trigger and winter trigger guard. That goes to my point about getting a semi-custom RRA gun for a basic gun price.

Funny you should mention the LAR-8, it is a very good gun! At the time that I bought mine, a guy had an LAR-8 and the DPMS on hand, and my bud got the LAR-8, we actually flipped a coin for it, and that is how it shook out. one thing I do not care for is that the LAR-8 uses an FAL mag, and those prices can be low or very high, depending. With the DPMS< you have DPMS, Magpul, and at least one other maker out there, so 2-3 sources for mags is better than basically one. Also, many of the uppers and associated items for AR-10's will not transfer over to the LAR-8 platform. If prices ever reach levels of sanity again, I intend to build up an upper in 338 Federal. This is not nearly as easily done with the RRA product, do some research and see.

Lastly, I think the weight issue is pretty easily resolved when you realize that the scope base I have weighs twice what a Burris Mount weighs (not sure who made it, nice but heavy), and I am always looking on the heavy side at stuff like this, especially when you consider that I think 8+ pounds is pretty darn chunky

In the end, I think that the RRA product may be a hair nicer, but the DPMS has more parts that are easily available, so in the end, with either of these, you will not go wrong

There are advantages of the FAL magazines if you live on one of the communist states in this country. They are ALL Pre-Ban 20 round magazines, and in most cases they are the only legal High-cap mags allowed. The second advantage could be the longer FAL mag allows HEAVIER bullets to be loaded to longer COAL.

I wonder if anybody realizes how detracting it is to the orignal poster to have his post turn into this.

Ar10's/ar-308's have come a long ways from what they were, it's that simple.

One point to remember is that ar10/ar308 are not milspec, period. It's very easy to find what fits what and how much they weigh.

If weight and interchange ability are a consideration look at the cmmg MK3 38A20FB, Mine was 7lbs 10 ozs out of the box including the 20rd pmag. With a 10rd 308 mag and 3-9x40bdc scope it's still a tad under 10lbs.

And to make it better their customer service is very good and prompt, and the trigger is ok from the factory. Building a ar10/ar308 simply takes a little research to make into what is perfect for you. ( i just checked my notes and cmmg is 7lbs 10 ozs without the pmag, sorry.)

Please post the link to this information, many of us could use it. Thanks.

The first place i would start is ar15.com, you can find almost any ar platform information you need there. Yes it can be clicky but the info is there.

After that you could try predatormasters.com while it isn't as complete as ar15. there is still good input from people who make and sale ar platform rifles there and their willing to help, just ask.

Next a seach of any of the search engines like google etc. will turn up info on barrel weights and compatibility, Snipershide can help as well, but again clicky.

I guess i should have said there isn't one single place to get the info you need, but it is out there and ar15.com would probably come the closest to having it all.

Depending upon what search engine you use you should be able to just type in what you need such as barrel weights etc. and come up with a list to start with and that list will most likely take you to other places to look.


I hope that helps some. blue

Blue, I'm still wondering what this has turned into that it doesn't on any other site.

Arfcom is good to sell stuff on the equipment exchange but the general info is so cluttered with BS and "dealers" input that the truth is hard to find.

PM is a joke.

Google searches can certainly fill up your day but in the end it's still all speculation at best.

No the AR-10 copies aren't mil spec but Armalites version has been issued to a few countries around the world. LMT is mil spec for England. DPMS and Remington have both submitted guns to the SASS (I think that's right) program. LaRue Tactical has one entered as well.

Basically, it's all still just as muddy as it ever was. Find what you like and use it. I personally don't want to waste 2 pounds in a buffer and carrier just to make the system work.

The original Stoner design was the AR-10 but the Army wanted a lighter rifle for good reason. Thus we have the AR-15.

Well lets start at the begining, it does happen on most every other site, i didn't say otherwise, i simply said it's distracting to the orignal question.

I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one to find the the information i'm searching for on those others sites as well. As for being a joke, well everybody has an opion thats what makes most of us interesting.

In spite of the current politics saying that the world does owe you a living the truth is that if a person isn't willing to do the research, then they don't really want it.

Anyone willing to take the time to look can find any ar10/ar308 info they want. (My mispelled words are cuz of me).

Oh info is easy to find but forums that are run by advertisers will only tell you what they want you to know.

Have a good day.

Yes, sometimes you have to wade through the mess to but overall ARFCOM has the most information available I have found for AR type rifles. You have to accept that all forums are going to have people who just run their mouth. On larger sites this will seem more common. Have thick skin and don't take any of it personally.

This is a great source for .308 based AR platforms.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/413443_.html

ARF.com is pretty good if you can stomach their flacking for moslem terrorists.

Thank you CBMJR, that should help those looking. There is also a great gas rate/buffer/bufferspring chart showing where your empty brass should be landing over on 6.8 forums for those whose brass is flying 10-20ft in front of them.

Yes it is for the 6.8 however it will point you in the right direction as to if you need more buffer weight/ less buffer weight or more or less gas for your ar.

Seems like DPMS AR's in 308's are in good supply around here. One dealer has them for around $1100. Plain with rails, so you have to add sights, scope, laser, or whatever you want to add.

Smith & Wesson M&P-10 should be a great 308.

The technical forums are as good as anywhere. You do have to learn who to listen to, but that is like anywhere. The shenanigans mostly stay in GD.

I know DPMS and Remington share the same magazines. Does S&W use the same as DPMS? If so, their style magazines will probably win out over the long run. Wish they would make a Mil-Spec for the AR-10 platform. Might help bring costs down on those. I know DPMS and Rem have uppers for 243, 260 Rem, 7mm08, 308 of course and 338 Federal. Wouldn't be hard to make a 358 also if someone wanted to. Sure gives a lot of standardized calibers for that platform.

There is a mil-spec for the .308 AR. The M110 and Mk11.

That does not mean the platform has been standardized like the AR-15 though. The SR-25/DPMS type magazines are becoming the standard. Even Armalite is going back to them for the AR-10.

S&W MP-10 uses the DPMS magazines and the Magpul style as well.

So the only other option is the Rock River LAR8 which uses FAL metric mags. I have a FAL, but a Rock River LAR8 is several hundred dollars more than the $975 DPMS I have seen around here. Several hundred would buy some magazines, sights, and scope or reflex sight. However, if I went with Rock River I could keep my FAL magazines and just sell my FAL. Rock River is about $1,500 though. $500 would buy sights, scope and 8 magazines. Another reason is DPMS offers several caliber uppers if I decided I wanted a 338 Federal for big game hunting out west or Alaska, a 243 or 260 for varmit/pronghorn hunting. 308 gives me a good all round hunting caliber. In Alabama we can use semi-autos with no magazine limit. Lots of states like that.

Now if all manufacturers would only standardize the attachments for the uppers.

Read about two pages back from the "DMSBandit" for what you get for the extra money. If it works for you, RRA are good rifles.

Agreed, I'd like to see more upper interchange, or even some stripped uppers from the ones that don't share sizing, for caliber experiments.

I've seen them, and I'm not impressed. Pencil barrels and cheap looking like a sportacle, and the same price as a LAR-8.

I've seen the S&W and the DPMS side by side. The S&W cost about $200 more and had a thinner barrel. The DPMS had a heavier barrel. Both used the same magazines. I think with S&W you are paying for the name. Haven't seen an LAR-8, only online for about $300 more than DPMS plus you have to order through a dealer and pay more. However, the use of FAL magazines would be a plus for me.

The Smith has a ambi-mag release, ambi-saftey, and ambi-bolt release. The controls are in the places you expect if you have handled AR rifles.

The gas block is "clunky" looking, but same plain as the receiver for sight mounting.

The Smith factory stock and handguards are functional, not fancy.

The RRA bolt release is ambi, but forward under the front of the trigger guard, and pulls down IIRC.

I can't guarantee that the S&W will shoot (but I'd be willing to be that it would) I can, however, guarantee that the DPMS won't. They use junk barrels, unless you spring for the SASS model, and that thing is "crew-served" heavy.

I thought "light weight" was a plus with these rifles. Isn't weight the #1 complaint directed at AR-10s?

Well The Armalite AR10s will shoot

I have had one for at least 15 years...

Snake

I remember now about the ambi mag release and safety. I am right handed, so that isn't a concern. Haven't heard the DPMS isn't accurate. I would want more accuracy than my FAL gives. Might have to consider the LAR8.

Winner for me, which is why I went S&W over the others. I've put five rounds through it to get it on the same paper, haven't tried any accuracy work. Hope to do that in the next couple of weeks.

Hmm. I do know the Rem and the DPMS use interchangeable uppers. The holes on the S&W upper were in the same place and looked like the same size. I may wait a while longer to see what washes out.

Here's some of my notes on DPMS and Smith interchanges with another Fire member: I picked an MP-10 up earlier this year, I really LIKE the rifle, as it has an ambi safety, mag release, and bolt release from the start. It�s also a bit lighter than the DPMS rifles, and has an 18 inch barrel.

Couple of points on the Smith, it is NOT DPMS compatible. The upper pin lugs are longer on the Smith than the DPMS rifles. The Smith upper WILL NOT close on a DPMS lower without some fitting, I believe the rear lug is wider to prevent the installation. I don't know what the gap would be between upper and lower, we didn't go that far once the rear lug clearance was identified.

A DPMS upper would close on the Smith lower to about 30 degrees, maybe a bit less, and then you could feel the metal-on-metal bind of the shorter DMPS lug against the Smith lower. The upper would not close any further without forcing it.

The SW factory furniture is utility grade, and nothing more. I made a swap to the Magpul in OD Green. The MOE grip does not fit the back of the Smith receiver, I had to go with a MAD grip to close the gap.

I'd like to swap the gas block "block", but it's same sight plain and very functional as is. The Magpul handguards cover enough of it to be less "block-ish". I don't why it bothers me; maybe the square lines remind me of unfinished work...


No post is complete without pictures....

DPMS and the MP-10 uppers/lowers together. Note the heavier walls of the DPMS and the cut out for the bolt stop:



Another side by side view:



DPMS upper closing on the SW lower, the binding of the front pin stops it about here:



And here:



You can see the binding over the top of the MP lower lugs:



Pressure points of the bind on the DPMS upper from the MP lower:



DPMS upper free-set on the SW lower, will fit, but you can see the cresent moon of the mis-alignment of the shorter DMPS upper lugs in the hole:

[img]http://i1077.photobucket.com/a...7-000014BAB654E1F7_zps9bc41e35.jpg[/img]

SW Upper on the DPMS lower, will close, until the rear lug makes contact, could be shaved to fit. Also note that the bolt catch is hit by the upper, and raises it off of the lower shelf where it rests:

[img]http://i1077.photobucket.com/a...7-000014BB6928881B_zps1df6c6cc.jpg[/img]

Short version: what looks like a simple swap-isn't. And we haven't looked into the bolt and carrier issues that may be out there as well.

Wish they all would get together and Mil-spec them. I think the prices would lower then, and you can have better choices. AH64guy, do you have both? I've heard that all the AR style 308's are more accurate than the FAL's. I guess some more than others. Also, barrel thickness can be thin with very good steel or thick with bad steel. However barrel vibration on thiner barrels can cause worse groups. At least it seems everyone is standardizing on the Magpul magazines, DPMS, Rem, S&W, and I think Armalite is also now. Maybe others will follow. If they would all standardize on the lowers, then all the uppers would fit.

Why not just get a Springfield SOCOM? No shortage of parts or magazines. The whole no standard and reading has kept me from getting an AR10, so it is an open ended question.

There's probably more Armalite aftermarket stuff out there than any other. Simply cause its been around for the longest and being based off the original Stoner AR design doesn't hurt either.

Never seen the need to swap parts back and forth in the real world, so I'm not following why the "need" for mil spec. There's so much divergence from Mil spec these days that that argument doesn't hold up.

The LAR-8 bolt release is IN FRONT of the trigger guard. Right where it should be if you really think about it. No need to remove your hand from the gun or hit a lever with your palm like a standard AR-15 type release.





Does your S&W come with accuracy standards? Is barrel break in needed? What is the barrel spec?

64' what sort of groups you gettin'?

just a little smaller than 64'

Do you know what kinda groups 64 is gonna get? Cause if I read it right he's only fired 5 rounds through it.

Get a clue.

MOA of range fan at the moment.

Hope to get some time in the next two weeks to sit at the bench and see what it will do.

For me, this thread isn't about arguing for the "best" rifle, it's an information exchange of what each rifle has, and what fits between them, and what doesn't.

With any luck, I'd hope we've saved somebody some money and headaches by posting our trial and errors issues.

I await with baited breath. I'll decide whether or not to sell the SCAR 17S.

The post comment was 64' from "take a knee". that is 64 FEET. He didn't have AH64GUY in his comment. Excuse me for actually reading the comment correctly.

AH64Guy, please let us know how well your S&W shoots.

AH64Guy, were you able to try out your S&W this weekend?