Hey all you AR pros, I have an older Armalite AR-10T and want to purchase a new 16/18" barreled AR in 308, are there any better makers or newer upgraded mods being built today?

Although I've never had any trouble outta my old rifle [circa 2002] just looking for a more handy setup.

Thanks in advance,
Gunner

Gunner,

Never thought of you as a black gun type...

Those are Assault Weapons, don't you know...

DF

If you are going to replace the upper, just remember that the Armalite upper is cut different than the DPMS upper.

We are waiting on somebody here to buy one of the new DPMS Gen 2 and wring the snot out of it. Initial reports are good.

DPMS, RRA, CMMG are good "middle of the road" rifles, Noveske/POF/etc are upper price tier, really depends on what you want to do with a 16-18 inch barrel.

A couple of us have MP-10s, they are holding 1-2 inches for accuracy, and OK, nothing stellar. One RRA on here that is a tack driver from the pictures, and I'm sure there are others.

Won't a 16"-18" .308 be super noisy?

DF

Huh?...

Yeah DF, if they go BOOM I like em.

Gunner

Thanks AH, no upper install, just loking for a complete rifle, accuracy is only a mid-level concern, function will be paramount as this rifle will be mainly a spare for varmint ridding.

Gunner

Really liking the looks of the Armalite A10A4CBFX so far.

Gunner

Gunner, you declaring war on hogs..??

I've seen hog hunters using suppressors to cut down the racket and not spook hogs as bad.

DF

No, no cans or bacon, jus two leggers.

Gunner

Hope to be able to use the same load I do in my other Armalite AR-10, it runs the 130 gr TTSX's to 3000 fps in it's 20" barrel.

Gunner

I get the picture.

Just sounded like a porker set up. Didn't know if you Okies were into hogs as bad as those Texicans...

Wouldn't a .223 be lighter and handier for two legged varmints..?

DF

Yes, but barrier/thump champ it aint.

Gunner

OK.

Guess that explains the TTSX's.

DF

Jerry, my AR10 carbine is likewise about 10 years old. It came with a 16" barrel and brake, and was fair to middling accurate. The muzzle blast was ugly, so I bought a 18" Rainier Arms Ultramatch barrel, and added a Vortex brake.



So far It seems to be about a 1.5 MOA rifle, but I have more tuning to do on it.

Here's a link to the barrel:

https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2236

If you want to buy a complete rifle, I'd look at S&W's 7.62 rifle, as they come with 18" barrels. There may be other folks who have them.

I'd acquire some extra ejector springs for whichever -10 variant you buy; so far that's been the only reliability issue I have seen with mine.

I like your doorknob display rack...

DF

The new Windham Weaponry SRC 308 is perking my interest. At 7.5lbs is seems like it could be a nice lightweight option compared to the AR10's of old.

The other option I like is the new S&W M&P10 at 7.75lbs with the 18" barrel.

I need to do a little more research but one of these will be coming home with me soon.

Thanks for the tips Patrick, I have considered the Vortex and Breacher flash hiders for my new set-up.

Gunner

AH64 and I have MP10's. The best I can wring out of mine in a 5 shot group is an occasional 1 MOA group. It is on average like he indicated a 1.5-2MOA gun. The good is that "it works" every time with reloads, factory, some surplus junk ammo I had laying around of unknown origin. The barrel is about 21 inches long when you count the 3 inch long flash suppressor. It does not foul much due to their 5R rifling, the melonite coating inside and out make it corrosion resistant,its mid-length gas, takes normal AR15 handgrip, stock, trigger, the balance is not bad and its not a beast regards weight. Next up I am going to try some Federal 168 grain Match in it to see if I can get a few SMOA groups. The DPMS G2 looks good as well, and you could have your 16 inch Ear-gone-ringing blasting barrel.

Sounds good Jimmy, [MP10's?] you talkin HK's? A couple Buds of mine have MP5's, little 9 and 10mm machine pistols.

They also have 308's in HK 91 and PSG1's.

Thanks for the info,
Gunner

No sir, Smith and Wesson M&P10.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/..._757785_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

OOPS, Thanks again Jimmy, I'll check 'em out.

Gunner

Jimmy and I have been running a discussion on the MP-10 we own for a while. He's light years ahead of me on reloading for it.

Here's what I'm seeing with mine, from the bench:



I'm assuming I threw one out of the group:



Range conditions:



Same ammo from from a Remington 700 custom:

Nice, and thats plenty fine for my intended purposes, I looked at the M&P 10's, the 18" barreled camo rifle isnt to bad, are the 5R barrels chrome lined?

Gunner

No sir but they are nitrited and smooth to the patch. I trust the nitrided as much as chrome and SS.

Greg what scope are you using on your rifle?

10-4, the Smith with the 18" barrel has to be miles ahead on user friendliness when compared to the Sig 716 308 pistol with a 12" barrel I looked at.

Talk about trying to stay stuck to the back of a live fireball. lol

Gunner

yes sir and the odds of the MP10 gun actually working are a lot higher than the SIG actually working.

Going BOOM do indeed trump all else.

Gunner

Hey Jimmy, do you and AH see/like something about the S&W's over say the same gun in ArmaLite?

Gunner

mostly just the lighter weight of the gun. On my scale a fully loaded 20 round P mag with 147 grain bullets weights a pound IIRC. Here is the gun with a fully loaded magazine, scope, mount, cheap sling, magpul stock, hogue grip.

10-4 on the weight difference, I'm hearing both the S&W's and newer Armalites will take the P-Mags, and some are availiable in 25 rounders to boot.

I may try one of the Aimpoints on this new setup, gave my last EoTech away to a traveling Bud, a zeroed and railed Aimpoint along with a 2.5-10x24mm NF scope zeroed in it's own QD mount should about cover any scenario, no?

Gunner

It's a SWFA fixed 10X in mil/mil, traded it off of Tanner last year, it's the range pig for swapping on/off AR style rifles for basic accuracy checks.

The MP-10 was a better balance to the shoulder for me than the DPMS line-up, and much easier/cheaper to find in my local area than Armalite. I caught my MP-10 in a local shop at retail price when they were getting flipped for $2500, and we didn't know if the fall-out of DEC12 was going halt production. I've seen them on sale this year for as low as $999. I don't have anything against the Armalite line, but I think they offer less options than the DPMS patterned rifles.

The MP is set-up from the factory for ambi controls, and in familiar locations, so learning the rifle isn't a switch. Armalite is the same. The MP-10 barrel was a seller with the thinner profile and the melonited treatment.

My hope was that the MP-10 and DPMS would interchange uppers/lowers, and they DO NOT interchange. Still not a deal killer to me, as the rifle loaded isn't horrible to carry. Yes, it takes the PMAGs and the new 25 rounders if you are inclined that way. I use the twenties, and prefer the tens. I saw the first of the new 25s with the window at the gun show this weekend.

Gunner, with that set-up, IMHO, you'd be set for the life of the rifle, and could cover everything you wanted to hunt, or that could be a practical threat. My only comment would be that this size of .308 would a PITA for any clearing in a home type scenario, I'd prefer a pistol or a CAR sized rifle/shotgun over the MP-10.

I talked to one of my old friends last night, actually very early this morning, he's the same one I gave my last EoTech to, he said he had enough good parts to build me an AR 308 outta Noveskee? and Lewis Tool? parts, is this guy on crack or something?

Gunner

If he's not...he's a VERY good friend.

None of those part brands are cheap by any means. Noveske follows the Armalite school of dimension IIRC with their rifles, not that it's bad, just a standard they follow.

LOL, he said he'd build me a good one when he gets his boots back on US dirt, also said my money was no good, this is sounding good.

Gunner

I really hate to keep buggin you guys, but I cant find whether Noveskee or LMT makes a lower big enough for the 308 sized family of cartridges, trying to figure out what my bud is gonna build me or, will it have another brand of 'larger' lower?

Thanks again,

Gunner

LMT had their version adopted by Great Britian.

I'm not sure on Noveske's lower or not but their uppers are top of the line and on the Armalite pattern. I figure keeping with the same mags would be a plus vs going with a RR or dpms.

Advice; be excited and plan something special for your friend.

Thanks TWR, I am excited, and when I asked my Bud why my money was no good his response was a reminder that I yanked him from satans grasp about 25 years ago, I guess lucky for me he's got a good memory.

Gunner

Money means little when things like that are considered.

Good on both of you.

You bet TWR, I saw great potential in that young buck so many years ago, for once, I was right.

Gunner

Gunner - Google up Noveske N6 308 - you'll get some hits.

This will give you an idea what the rifle looks like:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/902171940/Noveske_N6_308.htm

Noveske and Armalite are pretty well in synch on their products, I haven't really looked at how LMT fits in. At least one of the LMT .308 upper offers the ability for the shooter to swap barrel calibers in the .308 cartridge family.

I think the DPMS is all proprietary. Midwest ind makes a key mod tube for it is all I know. So there is the Armalite floor plan and the DPMS floor plan?

Jimmy - if I understand your question, yes, the Armalite lower has a flat angle at the rear of the upper, so that a DMPS upper with the round radius will not close/pin on the Armalite lower.

The Armalite upper is the same length and pin depth of the DPMS upper, and will pin on a DPMS lower, but you have a gap through the lower where the carrier moves.

Here is a piture of the gap:

http://308ar.com/compatibility.htm

If you want something with more options check out the Noreen Arms site these rifles are not mix and match but 100% made by Noreen. Having the option of 30-06, 270, and 25-06 is very interesting and they are in some local stores now.
http://onlylongrange.com/bn36.asp

Amazing! any AR15 upper and lower from any vender work fine together! Interesting they have not settled on a common 308 platform.

Preshade it AH, does the lack of a Forward Assist on the Noveske plarform alarm you in any way?

Gunner

Thanks 264, damn, talk about a nightlight, that '06 would lite a dark warehouse at night.

Gunner

RRA .308 20" with a couple modifications, shoots right along with my bolt .308
Bottom pic is 5 shots at 100yds with the RRA 168gr FGMM.

Nope!

Nice Rock JMAC D, and 10roger on the 'nope' AH.

Gunner

The RRA guns are nice just a tad heavy.

Hey Jimmy, what is it about the Sig you have concern with? different design, or maybe inherent factory bugs that are still present/not worked out?

Just wondering because me Sig pistols run like a greased sewing machine.

Thanks
Gunner

just various posts on M4 carbine and in general about the 516's having a lot of issues. I never had any issues with the sig 220's I owned.

10-4 and Thanks, is the 516 the same base design as the 716?

Gunner

The 516 is the 5.56mm version of the 716; I think it is piston operated, like the 716.

Some Sigs seem to always run very well. Others, they seem to have taken established models and cut corners on them, harming reliability. I like the 716's features for a piston 7.62x51; but I'm not sure pistons really buy you that much. And I don't want another 16" .308

I think I'd look at either the M&P10, or the Colt LE901, which can use 5.56mm uppers. Or rebarrel an Armalite, which is what I did.

Thanks Tex, trying to figure what folks dont like about that design, the small picture my mind generates says a much cleaner firing mechanism/weapon.

Gunner

I think that SIG pistol with the "arm stabilizer" was a 10.5 inch barreled 308...

I bet you would say "yo mamma" every time you lit one off in a room...same as you do when you light them fire crackers off in your ears..

Tex sounds like you don't like 16 inch barreled 308's much either!

Pretty sure the 516 is DI, and the 556 is the piston model. We listed them out on the "Would you trade?" Thread.

to me it says stuff rattling next to the barrel

Assuming everything is well made & assembled, with no one cutting corners on parts, a piston gun might be more reliable or perhaps go longer without cleaning. The LWRC REPR or the H&K 762 would be examples. But both are pushing $4k

plugs, under a good headset, and they are tolerable. At least in the open. Shooting one inside a building might be damn unpleasant, anyway

You might not notice any noise during a real fight, but one shot and you probably couldn't hear much, unless you took time to put on hearing protection.

I had a 16" barrel for mine, with came from the factory with a brake. Shoot it at a public range, and no one would shoot next to you I can't imagine how bad a 12" barrel would be.

By the way, Gunner, I still have an Armalite 16" stainless barrel, that shoots okay. I'd make you a good deal on it, if you want it.

The little Sig 716 'arm hair cutter' has a 12" barrel.

Gunner

10-4, Thanks Tex, dont know why I keep buggin you dudes and trying to learn about different designs and discussing costs, thinkin my old Bud is gonna build and give me one if I'll just chill and wait awhile. lol

Gunner

I am thinking to find one of those DPMS Gen II jobs with the 20 inch barrel and carbon float tube. I like the recon model but Tex has a good point, a 16 inch 308 for what I do (shoot at animals in the woods) would be deafening. I did this once with one of those Marlin's with a ported barrel...never again.

Hopefully, it's not buggin' anybody.

I joined the Campfire to learn about the various aspects of hunting, shooting, wildlife, and outdoors things in general that I'd like to know more about. The forums here are still pretty good for that purpose, with a few noted acceptions, and members.

If a buddy was going to deliver an unknown rifle to me, I'd try and find out as much about it as I could before the delivery. So, I don't think you are out of line, or out of bounds...

Ok, so I really joined the Campfire because a buddy put me onto a great deal on a Sauer 202 in Classified, but you get the idea.

No doubt on the ear wax melting BLAST there Jimmy, my 20" barreled ArmaLite aint no church mouse either.

And a big Rah-Jah on that too AH, my old Buds that live, breathe and bleed this stuff are all world star traveling hands and are 99% of the time not available for questioning, I just didnt want to pester you guys too much, but will admit to being very excited about the build, and price.

Gunner

I know a little but have a lot to learn.

same here!

I am right here as well. Just how much louder is a 16" vs a 20" .308. Is it enough to make a difference?

Yes my DPMS 338 Federal requires the hearing aids be muted prior to shooting as the blast is extremely hard on one's ears.

I had an 18 inch model 7 which seemed louder to me than a 22 inch 30-06. It had a distinctive report according to folks I hunted with.


223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 inch barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 � 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB

Me three.

Gunner

Based on the '06 numbers, it is substantially louder.

looks like DPMS released a 16 inch hunter model with carbon float tube, and collapsible stock!

Damnit, I'm gonna go ahead and buy something before I get mine built.

Specs/weight? would this be one of the new Gen-II's?

Gunner

And Gunner joins the Dark Side....welcome!

:-)

Well thankee AH.

Gunner

the hunter G2 with fiber float tube, fixed stock, 20 inch SS Teflon coated barrel is 7.7 pounds, they just released the 16 inch hunter in May I don't know how much it weights. I am between the devil and the deep blue sea, 16 inch barrel and adjustable stock (hate barrel length like adjustable) or 20 inch barrel and fixed stock ($70 or more for "fix" to adjustable stock)!

Go with the 20". If you want it shorter, you can always have it cut back to 18" and still have the advantage of the rifle length gas system.

I have the MOE rifle stock on my .308, love it! I like it better than the PRS it replaced.

thank you and Happy Birthday!

^^^This^^^
I'm torn between which of these two models I want. I haven't got to see the 16" Hunter Model yet. My LGS has been trying to order one with no luck yet.

I've been wanting a AR in .308 ever since I ordered the Suppressor for my .300 ACC Blackout, since I can use one Supressor for both rifles.

Ah heck.
Just get a 24" stainless, fluted, and go kill stuff.....

Nice! What scope you using?

Fixed stock maybe, and barrel cut to 18" sounds pretty good to me, I tend to favor the fixed stocks over the adjustable for the extra protection it affords the recoil spring and buffer tube, bend that little bustard in a scuffle and you got yourself a nice club.

Gunner

Yes, I have the 20 inch hunter on order, traded my MP10 for it, I was having last minute angst as I prefer a shorter LOP than 13 inches in a black gun. ON the other hand, a 16 inch tube would be a pain in the ear for the guns intended purpose. I figure I will try it and see and if the LOP does not suit me then just order the parts to convert.

I think you will like the MOE rifle stock with a 20" barrel. It balances nicely and LOP is same as a collapsible stock when out 2 or 3 positions. I am 6'5" so the extended buttpad was even a nice addition for me.

That's a leuold 3.5-10x40 tactical.
Its now wearing a 6.5-20x50 lr side focus.

That is the problem with guns, having to buy new optics!

Truer words I've never read.

Gunner

Just returned from the LGS after checking out 308 AR's. They had an offering from Windham, DPMS (NOT the G2) and the S&W MP10. The latter was quite nice. Fit and finish looked great. Bolt and carrier felt smooth. The Windham and DPMS guns were cheaper and not just in price. The carriers felt like they had sand in them. The safety on the DPMS took both hands to disengage. Looks like it comes down to the Ruger 762 or the M&P10 if you can't spring for a SCAR or a Larue.

Thinking if I'll just chill my old Buds gonna build me one hopefully close to equalling the last two mentioned in your post.

Gunner

Don't know what DPMS you had safety problems with but my DPMS 338 federal just takes a flick of the thumb like all ar15's.

The G2 Recon I looked at was very well made, the upper lower fit was not as tight as the MP10, but there was nothing that jumped out at me.

Great thread.

I am a total newbie to the AR platform but have recently become interested in AR-10.

A friend will be stocking these in his store from a local builder.

Do the specs look ok for the build price?

Hopefully they will have one in a week or so so I can handle it.

http://mcduffeearms.com/wp/product/firearms/rifles/mlr-308-broadsword/

The Armalite has 2 floor plans it's self. The A and the B.

The A is the original plan and the B is the plan that allows you to convert M-14 magazines to be used in a Stoner design. Armalite as a company went to the B plan in 1994 with the assault weapons ban. It's my understanding they have discontinued the B and have gone back to the A. I'm not sure if the A plan and the DPMS plan can use the same magazine but I believe it can. It's my understanding the A plan can use the Promag magazines. I'm sure someone will jump in and answer that question if I'm wrong. kwg