I'm looking to buy/build an AR that will end my desire for an accurate .223/5.56.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Money is always a consideration, but I'm not looking to skimp. I would like to keep the cost under 2500, excluding glass, but lower if possible. Accuracy trumps all of my desires, but have no time to hand load. I'm looking to shoot factory match ammo to around 300 yards with setup that will outshoot me.

My preference, if only for simplicity reasons, would be to purchase a completed rifle from a company like JP so I don't have to deal with making one from pieces. Some say that's a gross waste of money (it's about 3500 for their billet receiver model, target stock, etc.). If you suggest building one (or having it built), what/who would you recommend? Would a gunsmith be necessary? Where on the gun should money be saved, and where should it not be spared?

I've shopped around a bit and listened to a lot of talk. Everyone seems to have a different opinion - all with equal conviction - which is not helpful. Please post some fact-based or experience-based advice here, I'd be grateful.

Thank you

White Oak Precision... for the upper... you will come in with a tack driver for way under 3500... thats a ridiculous, to me, price.

Upper being 100 buck range, float tube 200 buck range somewhat. Add a few misc parts for 200, top line barrel is 300-400 max, and maybe 250 to put the barrel together, and then assemble upper a bit more...

All you do is come up with lower... with whatever stuff you need on it.

Fact based that we did a lot of competition shooting to 1000 yards with irons with Johns work and John is a top line shooter and national civilian champion with the AR....

Money not a consideration, start reloading...

Then spin one together, with a good bolt, barrel, trigger, scope and bases. It's easy peasy for anyone with basic wrenching skills.

Krieger or Lilja, brand name bolt, RRA NM or better trigger, SWFA 10x mil/mil on some solid bases, and you'll be in the game.

If you want to buy the most accurate AR15 in .223, and your budget is under $2500, Les Baer is the way to go. My Les Baer Super Varmint will shoot 1/4" 5-shot groups all day long! It's not only the most accurate AR-15 I own, it's the most accurate Rifle I own.
My choice for a lower priced Accurate Factory AR would be one if the Rock River heavy barrel models. JMO, though. For whatever it's worth.

Stag 3G for a street price of $1300-1350 is hard to beat, even building.

SS Shaw barrel is 410SS, would have rather seen 416R, but everyone I've talked to says < 1MOA.

Stag 3G

MM

Doubt you'll beat the White Oak Precision with a top of the line barrel just don't confuse them with White Oak Armament. Same company but they use Wilson blanks from what I understand. Not a bad choice but not the best.

I've bought or built several AR's, a few were accuracy minded and the most accurate barrel I've shot was from Krieger. I sold it due to weight and it's super tight chamber.

I now have 2 Noveske barrels that shoot half to 3/4 MOA which is all I need.

Another sleeper though is a BM Varminter, I know of one that shot under 1/2 MOA with cheap reman ammo.

Most varmint type AR's will shoot better than most people can. For 300 yards, you won't need heavy bullets so a 1/9 twist would be ok but I'd go at least 1/8. Stay away from billet hype, you won't get any better accuracy over forged receivers. It might look cool but they are heavier and 3 times the price.

77smks take every bit of 8 twist to stabilize generally. Not sure anyone shoots 69s at 300 anymore.

If BM is Bushmaster, they can have some really good barrels and some so so ones. Just FYI.

And another note, Krieger is not the only top line barrel but the worst I"ve ever seen from them has been 3/4.... Rock is now my current choice but hear they are hard to get at the moment... THere are a couple others.

But don't miss teh quote about Wilson tubes... they are moa or under solidly, but they are not a top barrel.

Was it what they call a "Match" chamber.........whatever that means, & did it cause problems? Or was it just that the brass had to be sized down for it a bit more than normal? Tight or minimum headspace?

I'm considering one, so that why I'm asking.

MM

LB SV without the PRS stock option is $2640. He's a reassuring man to talk to - not to mention the .5 MOA guarantee (which he says he NEVER has anyone return guns over). He also says his the gun will do two .25 MOA 5-shot groups back to back. Not saying I can do that. Said 1:9 20" will spit 69-grain Fed Gold Match out to 900 yards. He said having them build the entire gun will help ensure accuracy, since they hand-fit everything. Are you gunnin just the upper? What ammo?

Precision Reflex makes great uppers/rifles using Douglas match barrels. Uppers range from $1000-$1500 for an upper based on configuration.

Only an idiot would shoot 69s at 900 yards. I wont' even shoot em at 300 anymore since there are much better bullets.

I've shot 69s at 600 before.. it ain't fun. At 900 it would be a waste of time.

Building the entire gun does help just a tiny bit. On the order of about 0.10 group size less at 300 yards on 10 shot groups.

Much better bullets in factory loads? I'm all ears, let me know. Edit: Les Baer tests their guns with 69g Fed Gold Match

$2600 to shoot factory ammo???

69 GMM sometimes ain't bad... you can match accuracy, generally beat it most of the times, but sometimes its just good.

Not that its worht a flip in the wind past 200... no 68/69 is

I'm not able to reload at the moment. Maybe down the road. But for a few years I'm going to be shooting factory match only. I don't want to buy a different setup when that day comes.

Can you suggest a bullet/ammo that is? This could affect the barrel I end up with. Thank you.

Black hills 77 gr OTM. While I've had a true 1/9 shoot the 77's and never seen a 1/8 that wouldn't, all mine are and will be 1/7.

MM, it was a minumim spec chamber, made segregating brass and loads a must. I could run a 1/2 a grain more powder in other guns I had. It still reached velocity with less powder but I'm want to like to standardize.

The Krieger chambers are accurate, but as noted, you have to segregate. Went to Kriegers and had em chambered Wylde or other after that...

Thanks.

Segregating is not a problem for 1 gun & just size to headspace accordingly.

If functioning was the issue, I be more concerned.

MM

Thanks for all the input guys. I ended up getting a Stag Model 6 Varminter. So I'm back looking for some suggestions on factory match ammo to try through it. Purely for accuracy purposes. 1:8. Thanks a lot

Try federal match, hornady match, black hills, asym, pretty much any good brand of ammo that uses a "match" projectile. I'd try and find a load that worked well with a 75/77gr bullet.

Thank you, will do

Fiddy, I just logged back on after a while and saw your PM. Sounds like you've got it worked out already.

I've heard some good reviews about the CBC 77grain load and that's it's a cheaper alternative.

Depending on the distance you want to shoot at, Atlanta Arms has a 60grain VMax load that's cheaper than most "precision" loads and has been very accurate in several rifles for us.

Just put your money in the barrel and you will be good to go.

just buy a 500.00 ar it may shoot as good as the one you spend 2k on.

I've never seen a 500 buck one shoot as well as a well built one with the best barrel you can buy. Ever. But a 500 buck one might shoot as well as whatever your demands are.

On a recent range trip, there were at last 30 guys at the range with AR's, and I was the only person actually shooting groups.

There was some expensive AR on the line and not one of them would of been able to tell the difference in accuracy between a .5 and a 2k rifle.

Of course, if you know what you are doing, a good barrel will make a difference.

Not everyone shoots for the same reasons and group size isn't always what determines price. Lots of shooters could care less what kind of accuracy they can squeeze out of their rifles, this may be why the mini-14 still has its following.

i have plenty of tack driving rifles but i don't consider any ar15 to be one of them. i've owned armalite,stag,daniel defense,colt,remington,dti,s&w,sig sauer,dpms and a few others. to me they all the same.i do gun shows and get to play with them all.

You are correct, reloading does have a lot to do with it. I purchased a Rock River arms Lar 15 last year, I have tried several powder/bullet combinations and almost all of them shoot under one inch at 100 yards, one of my loads shot a group measuring .295, same load shot a 300 yard group measuring 1.9 inches.

Thanks a lot for the information! I already received my shipment of R&D ammo but will definitely be trying some others down the road, and I will refer back to your suggestion.

Do tell!

I'm a big fan of Wilson Combat and their match grade barrels (fluted, or unfluted, it doesn't matter). Last year I had them build me a 16" upper chambered in 300 AAC Blackout for taking pig and Axis deer and what I received is a sub-moa tack driver. Their custom shop is great - they installed my Geissele rail and barrel nut and still certified it as a complete Wilson upper covered by their warranty. Sure it was a bit pricy, but I couldn't be happier.

there are cheaper routes that will be less costly than the big names and shoot as well or better, but if you are happy wiht the results and the expenditure thats all that matters.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9957234#Post9957234

Guys

Thanks again for all the suggestions on the gun and the ammo. I went out for maiden R&D today. Results are posted in the thread link above, although I didn't go into much detail there with the various ammo I tried. I bought a range of manufacturers with boolit weights from 52 to 77. Wish I'd have bought more BH 69MKHP while it was $10 off a box of 50

I'm an idiot. I have that same rifle and it will same hole five shot groups with the 69 gr if you can shoot that good, which I can't. Personally I don't care much for eating paper anyway and Prairie dogs don't seem to know the difference between 40,50,69 or 77 gr bullets.

You eat prarie dogs?

Well, rock on with 69s at 900. enjoy the headaches...

I don't follow.

He is just being a little on the sarcastic side about trying to shoot 900 yards with the 69 gr bullets. He means they aren't the best weight or just to light for this type longer range shooting

Oh ok I see it. Well, I'll never go out that far anyway probably, or if I do maybe investigate the possibility of heavier bullets

not many average AR Shooters go that far and the 69 gr will do anything they ask for from their AR

wind drift. Its a killer at 600 with a 69. At 1000 even the 80s get bucked around. ITs the reason I went to 90s.

Even at 300 the 69s drift more than comparable 75/77/80ish bullets.

Anyone can grab a rangefinder and adjust elevation, its the windage thats a SWAG.

Miss with a 69 doesn't kill a PD but a hit with a 77 will....

Someone here, I thought it was Fiddy, commented about the 69s shooting very well all the way to 900. Maybe I got the wrong guy, sorry.

Jeff

If I were a betting man I would bet that well over 50% of the people who own AR's never shoot farther than 300 yards if that far. I certainly have rifles better equipped for 900 yd shots than even my Les Baer.

rost495 everything you have said so far is correct and hard to argue against. to me bullets are like girlfriends, sometimes the one that makes the most sense isn't the one you like the best.

Nah I didn't comment about shooting to 900 - I wouldn't be qualified to do so.




Yeah I fall into that category. I'll probably never shoot farther than that, and I'm probably never going to hunt anything a la prairie dog, either.

I only use my AR's only for hunting mostly Coyotes, Groundhogs and Deer. Shots never over 300 yards , most under 100 yards

I'm only somewhat qualified to comment, but thats due to competition. 300-600 is considered mid range, and my Long Range High Master classification came early with ONLY 600 yard and 800-1000 yard matches. 300 and under even 500 and under don't count.

I'll stick by the fact that 69s suck at 600. Its a reason the wife bought an M1A after shooting a windy 600 yard match once, that really took her score down low, and she was handed an M14 the next morning with boxes of 168s( THANKS- Alonda and Arch!!!) and shortly thereafter we had another M1A in the vault.

It's an indisputable fact of physics that higher BC bullets are less subject to wind drift than lower BC bullets in the wind conditions.

MM

I would say you're MORE than qualfied to comment. What twist do you prefer when shooting the 80-90 gr bullets. My 24" LB is 1in9 and they highly recommend nothing over 69gr.

Hey Jeff, which M1A did your wife get?

Springfield Armory, sold the stock, put a Mc Millan on it, then pulled the barrel and put a 10 twist Krieger on it, and had it bedded, and tuned/trigger job and match sights.

Only thing I regret in some ways on both of our guns is they were not double lugged recievers.

my buddy shoots 9 twist on purpose, but its a full and actual 9 twist, hot loads with 80s, sometimes 77s won't stabilize.

I shoot 7 twists for 80s, nothing less than 6.5s for 90s. 20 inch tubes. Obviously MV makes a difference and barrel length affects that.

What a coincidence. I was just looking at a stag 3GL comp. Looks damn nice for the money ($1,350.00). I'm not the op, but in the same boat as him and trying to narrow it down... Don't know if I want to go strictly left handed AR though. Maybe bea or someone else has started a thread on pros and cons of that: Left vs. right handed AR's????

I have shot right handed m16/m4 for 17yrs and I'm a lefty, I shoot them left handed and it does not bother me. I see no advantage of having a left handed one. The brass deflector works very well.