I have been looking at RRA AR-15s lately and other makers. So far RRA are the only maker I have found that claims a certain level of accuracy from their guns. The guarantee is 1 MOA to 3/4 MOA depending on rifle. That includes match and hunting bullets, this from a response I received from them on the question of what bullets were they using. Has anyone found their claims to be true?

Also, have you found other brands to be just as accurate (or more so)?

Stag 6 has a 1/2" guarantee and lives up to it with good ammo. I've never read of a maker giving that claim with a specific bullet/ammo tho.
Les Bauer gives a guarantee as well but their guns aren't cheap. A stag 6 runs about 1K and the value/return can't be beat in my opinion

Most guarantees are for a 3 shot, or in a few cases, maybe a 5 shot group.

Lots of stuff will do the 3, so that's pretty meaningless, IMO.

I'll take them seriously if the say a 10 shot group & mean it & back it up..............so far no one does that I know of.

Ammo is huge & the shooter is not insignificant either.

A few barrel makers guarantee <MOA or user satisfaction ...........

MM

I had a RRA predator pursuit, didn't have any problem shooting moa or better for 5 shot groups. That was with bulk 55 gr varmint bullets over 24.5 gr of H-335. A generic load for my .223's, not one worked up for that rifle.

I have no doubt a good AR will put three shots well under moa consistently. I don't think guarantees make the guns more accurate, I'd expect most "varmint" AR's to shoot like that.

Not a target gun, but I use KAC, for high volume and hard use. Their rifles, however, have been amazing in accuracy, especially being they are geared toward professional use, not match shooting.

I've never even heard of them.

Is that for all their uppers/rifles or is it model specific?




Travis

Bro..that accuracy gaurantee is only for their model 6. It's a 24" heavy bastid but they do what they claim. 1/8 ER Shaw barrels on the 6 btw..
My brother and I both shot one in the black rifle challenge..
After shooting mine and my brothers 5 friends have made the move
This was the two tens with 75's and those flyers were all me..

A buddy's group with 52 amax

On there website they list most guns with an accuracy standard of 1 MOA and 3/4 MOA depending on rifle, but not just there heavy barreled models.

I really like the accuracy you are getting from yours however.

Yes, IMHO, they are what they claim and I've found very little wanting over 6-8 years of using their parts. I own/have shot/shoot RRA uppers in 5.56 and 6.8, all uppers have been at least MOA over a sampling of probably 5-10. I have a Coyote that had been waiting for a range session, that I would expect to be sub-MOA.

If you venture into your own build, White Oak, Kreiger, Wilson Combat, and similar quality barrels will get you the same results.

Match and hunting needs aren't always the same bullet, or bullet weight, so do your homework on what it is that you are trying to achieve. You'll need to think a bit about how much twist you want, and if one twist is "good enough" for all you want to do.

Interestingly enough I checked stags website and I can't find where they make that gaurantee anymore. Must have gotten tired of complaints about guys not gettin 1/2" with Tula...;)
Anyway I would still buy with confidence if that's the type of AR you were in the market for

I like accurate rifles, but I have no interest in a 12 pound AR....................

MM

I had a 24" RRA and it was an accurate SOB. But a heavy SOB. I have a lightweight RRA for my coyote gun, it is also an accurate SOB.

I think most guns with a guarantee will meet it, in some form or fashion.

Generally speaking accuracy does not come with hunting bullets out of the box so to speak.

It does NOT come from ball FMJ stuff.

It comes from match grade, meaning maybe to the point of brass prep, sorting, unified pockets, tested primers, tuned powder charges, proven seating depths and neck tensions. PLUS a TOP line shooter.

That said if the twist works, and it won't shoot federal gold medal match 69s, it may not shoot much of anything.

Beware if its 3 shot or 5 shot groups, distances guaranteed etc... although 3 shot groups, if repeatable, should be more than good enough for 90% of the folks out there.

RE weight... I have a ACCURATE 308 bolt rifle... its also veyr heavy... in there is a theme of sorts, light super accurate are not as common by far.

True, all that.

But here on the 'Fire, only 10 shot groups define an "accurate" rifle, or so I've been led to believe.

But then again, seems like everyone's rifles all shoot <MOA, all day, everyday, as long as the shooter does his part.

Or at least as long as we're only talking about 3 shot groups.

MM

I'd hate like hell to "guarantee" accuracy with anything... seeing what some people put on their rifles for optics, or the shooting techniques they have. Not to mention the ammo they use.

Probably 99 out of a hundred claims would be clearly "user error".

1. Yes. Sample of one rifle of course. Won't do it with military style ball but otherwise good to go with six other types of ammo.

2. No. Sample of three rifles.
Very disappointed with the spendier of the three. I own/have owned two Mini-14's that shot better.
The other two are Ruger AR-556's with RRA triggers and
2-7 Leupy's. They are OK but not in the RRA's class.

Wilson barrels, IE RRA, are generally some really good bang for the buck. FWIW. Maybe not sub moa, but for what they cost, they usually are pretty up to snuff. I"ve personally never seen one that was worse than MOA, most around 3/4 moa at 100. One or three had to be recrowned, evidently old dull drill bits dont crown well. LOL

IMHO 10 shot groups is a good representation, or at least enough repeatable groups in both size and location, to prove similar.

Accuracy is what you need it to be, no more, no less.

I"ve shot my acccurate 308 a bit over the years. Generally one shot at 100 at the start of the season and its never been off more than 1/2 inch max from desired/expected impact. But I still know the gun is more accurate than that leads one to believe.

The problem is, its much easier to get a fluke 3 shot group in one hole than it is a 10 shot group. Hence the desire to see 10 shot groups.

I shot my Colt light weight last weekend with a VX6 1-6 scope and IMI M193 ball ammo.yes a chrome lined pencil barrel and FMJ ammo.

Shot 10 shot group, no cooling but I did notice I was aiming low and adjusted. Still shot a 2.5" group at 100 yards.

The thing that I was reminded of was a few 3 shot "groups" were under MOA and the rest could've been called flyers. That's why 10 shot groups matter.

3 shot groups would matter if folks would be honest. but they are not.

3 shot groups have to have same size and impact center... thats hard to quantify...

Flyers, either you shot it there or its a flyer. same regardless.

but we know exactly what you are saying. 2.5 at 100 with ball is not bad. I used some TZZ many moons ago that was also decent. And some FNM. I"ve not shot anything else much in ball that was as good. HRT was good in 308, actually awful good, but I digress

You can't load the same way for an ar 15 like you would a bench rest bolt gun. In my experience you get great groups here or there on a day here or there but for me no ar 15 is really capable of producing anywhere near the pure consistency that you can with a custom bolt gun. I don't care whoes barrel is on your ar.

If your seeing 3/4 moa on a consistent basis your getting about all that can be gotten on a reputable everytime basis with an ar 15. Barring uber competition guns or something like that. I know others will say mine shoots in the .2's "when I do my part" ok fine. I just call it like I see it. With that said, I don't do factory guns anymore. But i still have a 16" rra carbine. That gun shoots just about anything into 1.25" or less including steel case. It also shoots most stuff to the same point of impact. I would be happy if every ar barrel I owned shot as good as that barrel with so many different loads. Does it shoot half or .25" groups? it has before but it's generally around 3/4 with the stuff it likes. That is more accuracy than I need to the cartridge effective range of 350 ish yards. I just wish rra would update their product too many hbar heavy barrels. If they offered more contours I might just use their barrel instead of whatever top shelf stuff is out there

You haven't learned to shut your mouth when you don't know what you are talking about yet?

everything into a 1.25 MOA group, even steel case ammo! Wow! Well anyway most people know you and your routine by now, so why don't you just say everything into .5 MOA, its just as believable.

I have to disagree.

I've seen some AR's that shoot better than any bolt gun I've ever seen -- comparing off the shelf to off the shelf -- 10 shot groups.

Rock River has several barrel contours now. Every RRA rifle I've owned or shot has been extremely accurate.

They make some lightweight rifles now, but the majority of their line is heavy.

Put a RRA Competition and a 700 Varmint on the bench side by side. Shoot a 10 shot group with quality ammo from each. I know where I'd put my money....

I'd listen to certifiable. I seem to remember you doing very well in the black rifle challenge. I've looked at the stag 6's and they seem to very nice rifles. At one time, I had almost decided on the RRA varmint, the Daniel Defense or the Stag. Couldn't quite make up my mind and still haven't, but your post may push me over to Stag...and as far as the thread title, I probably wouldn't listen to anyone that wasn't involved in the black rifle challenge. I like it when someone puts their money where their mouth is....

I totally agree Rost. A 10 shot group (or a few on the same paper) goes a long way in proving the shooter and the rifle... .... This, "IF I do my part", is the funniest quote I always seem to see here...

How did you do in the black rifle challenge here??

I used to shoot High power competition and spent a few years reading and buying competition grade AR's then progressed to the point of building them myself.

I think learning what to look for is more important than identifying who claims what.

In short there are a couple of things that make it accurate, and those have to do with precision built (trigger, barrel, and chambering type per what you are shooting, and free floating the barrel).

There are also a few things that have to do with how easy they are to shoot. Those are how they fit you, and how consistent you can be with the rifle as it recoils back.

Past that it's just quality of materials...

Most rifles have something shooters want to change over time, buttstock, forearm, ... so depending on how much your rifle cost it might be smarter to piece part it. This would be someone who wants a AR with features of the 1800-2800 off the shelf price range.

The $500 jobs will not have a "great trigger," or Match barrel so long term if you keep it and upgrade those you are throwing away money ....

Now if you move to 308 AR platforms the equations change drastically, but for the common AR, it's pretty much that way.

At the moment there are plenty of good sales so if your careful you can get what you want and not toss too much in the trash when buying an off the shelf rifle.

I haven't seen any really good prices yet on top end guns (or parts); lots of low end, entry level stuff at decent, but not great, prices.

If you know of something specific, let us all know.

MM

^^^^^ Please^^^^^^^^

Here is the offending group. You can clearly see the low group (with a flyer) and the one on target but you can also claim some 3 shot groups in there.

If you are honest with yourself, 3 shot groups can be ok but it's hard to argue with a 10 shot group.

Hoping Daniel Defense comes up with a 6.5 Creed that doesn't weigh 10 lbs.

Evidently not at all.
I will give you that .2 groups out of an AR are not everyday though. But the same goes for bolt guns. But I digress

Yep, but if you took deviation from center on multiple 3 shot groups, it would really end up all the same.

Just easier to see it by far in a 10 shot group.

Off topic a bit, but I won't shoot big groups when load testing. Heck I usually use the Audette anyway, and then play with 3 shot groups... because if the first 3 shot group is horrible, why would I want to shoot more shots... another 2 to 7....

But on final testing, I'd shoot what we shot generally, IE if it was testing for 10 shot rapid fire ammo, I'd shoot multiple 10 shot groups.

I never did shoot 22 shot groups off a bench though for the slow fire strings, though I would test them in matches from the sling and irons, different batches of 22....

That almost looks like a bi-modal distribution for those 2 five shot groups...........if they were actually shot as 5 shot groups.

Almost like you changed your rest or your hold or subtlety changed POA.

Just doesn't look like normal distribution of shot or flyers.

MM

I have seen several AR's with promised accuracy that couldn't deliver and if I were the owner of said rifle I'd be chapped , especially when a premium price was paid for it. This group is from a Palmetto State Armory sporting a Burris 3-9 Scope with no accuracy guarantee , 10 shots of factory Hornady 55 gr vmax, if only I hadn't pulled the one.

Shoot another 10 shot group like that one, post it & you'll go to the top of the Challenge list...........assuming that wasn't out of a fixture.

MM

I see they also sell the upper only for about 6 bills. Pretty good deal!

Yes I shot the first 5 then looked in the spotter and realized I was aiming low. Raised to center and fired 5 more. I really need to shoot 10 more and see if I can duplicate a 1.5" group with the setup.

But it was an awesome day where all the planets aligned... I started off shooting a coyote square in the mouth as he was barking at my decoy/caller. Then I shot another one on the run at about 275 yards. The range trip was just a good ending to a great morning.

I thought you said that you had adjusted, thats what I saw in the group too, an adjustment after 5.

IF you can get a 1.5 repeatable I want to know what ball ammo, because its a really good lot and I might buy some for the hell of it.

Did you call it high and a hair left, out at 11?

Nope

Upper is a stainless 18", fluted and chambered in 223 Wylde 1/7. It shoots bug holes! Set me back a whole $380 shipping included.

Jeff that's that IMI M193, it's good hot ammo and gives acceptable groups for what it is. The gun is a Colt pencil barrel that I cut down the gas block and free floated.

I rarely shoot it off the bench but I'm gonna pay better attention to it. I was basically checking zero differences between the M193 and my hand loads. Same point of aim!!!

You DID have a good day............

That IMI 193 stuff has been pretty good for me too & I see the price looks to be down a little as of last week.

The IMI 77 gr (SMK) OTM stuff has been good too, for factory ammo.

MM

At the risk of beating a dead horse, it's a great deal. If you order the upper from [email protected] he will get you a better price

If you didn't call it out, then its a non shooter induced flyer that will show again. My point was if you didn't call it out, then its an indicator of actual full group size, not just a fluke...

Good point..

Folks are quick to call a shot out of what they think should be the group, a flyer.

And it is. But is it related to a poor shot RE form or such, or is it just out of the small group, but something that will continue to happen?

I still have a custom bolt gun that shoots flyers, The gun shoots them. So in reality they are part of the group. And I know that. The gun is not nearly as accurate because of it, but many of the shots go into one large hole, but there is always a flyer in there. Usually 1 out of 3 or 4 shots. Aggravating but its reality.

We tend to think of ourselves as perfect.... LOL

So your AR15 shoots nice, tight little groups.

Until you touch off the last round in the magazine...

That change is something not many people click to.

Speaking of flyers, that is.

Have not seen the last round in the mag be an issue on our guns. I do know for some reason both the first and last can be in some guns, must be harmonics of an unstable barrel metal IMHO.

1st shot out is often due to poor bolt fit in the barrel extension. Too much fore-aft clearance.

Then first shot should be that way in slow fire then to every shot?

Like most first round "flyers," I think it's a shooter issue. The only thing I could imagine truly effecting the first round would be the method in which it was loaded. Even this is rarely an issue though unless you have less than sufficient neck tension and rounds from the mag have bullets slipping.

if you have less than good neck tension its going to be tghat way on every round out of the mag, IMHO.

And if that neck tension is variable, that will equal flyers.........

MM

I'm not perfect. I get those one shot flyers with my 10-22!!!!!!



It's frustrating to say the least..

top left had more flyers than one. OR it was just a larger group with zero flyers... LOL

Need to keep notes and learn which shot is typically the one thats out....

I agree buddy. I was testing different ammo in that rifle. The ammo that grouped poorly was the most expensive chit I've used in it. The rifle is kind of a finicky bastid, I'm glad I found a couple types of ammo it likes. I'm pretty sure the flyer was me, but it's been so long that I shot those groups I can't remember calling the shot or not...

This is an AR forum. Nobody gives two fugks about your 22LR.




Dave

My RR Predator Pursuit 20" averages 1" or slightly under(5 shots). With an indoor range(or perfect conditions), higher magnification scope, and possibly a better shooter, the 3/4" group claim should be easily met, probably bettered.

Lots of folks think that others can shoot better than they do, but its not always the case, but then I hang around what I call proven shooters, so I may be a bit biased.

Oh ok dumbphuk, post some one shot flyers from your AR. Or even better yet, some one hole groups. Here's a picture that has a 1 shot flyer in the second group shot. The first group was getting used to the trigger and how the AR shot (first time out). I also used this in the black rifle challenge here:



I'll wait to see your target pics of the subject that was being discussed. Thanks...

Yeah, my 20" Wilson H-Bar consistently does 3/4"-1" with run of the mill 55 Hornady SP's and no particular brass prep other than sorting the LC brass by date. By getting anal with brass prep and shooting Bergers I get 5/8"-3/4". I'm satisfied.

So was the flyer ammo or shooter?

Good to see you're catching on.



Clark

No doubt it was the AR...




Dave

I have a RRA Lar 15, I have two hand loads that will shoot groups under quarter inch at 100 yds, same loads shoot 1.7 inch groups at 400 yards. Yes, RRA Ar's are very accurate.

Holee crud... UNDER a .25 inch group at 100? Or is that one shot groups.

Thats flat amazing.

I'm fair and have some fair guns, but I can recall 1 or 2 that had the possibility of doing that....

3 shot groups here and there, yes. 5 or more shots as the norm, IE an average, nope.

Did we give you the link to the thread on group shooting wiht an AR here?

LOL

My Rock River varmint will shoot 3/4 with 62 grain Barnes. This bullet slays pigs. Rips them up.

Little late here but after tinkering with a few factory rifles i decided to just build my own and have been doin alot better.

20" ARP 8 twist Barrel
Trying out different brass after sorting and prepping it.

100 yards
10rds new lapua brass
10rds once fired full length resized lapua brass
10rds once fired Neck sized lapua brass
73gr ELDM H4895 CCI BR4

Neck sized again and tested at 600 yards and goin to use that for my F-class load.