I've a new Springfield AR that I like quite a bit except for the trigger. It HAS to go! I'm looking for something in the 2.5-3.5 lb pull range, price < 200 $.
I am flying blind when it comes to ARs so any advice is appreciated.

I put a Rise trigger in my last lower build, so far it's working well. I had a CMC trigger in a Stag several years ago that also worked well but was more $$ than the Rise and no better.

Geissele SSA-E trigger. On sale right now at Brownells and a few other places.

SSA-E Trigger

I'd also look at the Geissele SSA-E, or even the RRA 2 stage match trigger. Both great triggers for the money. Buy them when they are on sale though. $79.00 for the RRA and $100.00 more for the Geissele... Be aware though, the RRA may need a little polishing to make it better.. The Geissele will be damn near perfect right out of the box..

It sounds as if the Geissele is pretty darn nice. Gonna have to check out the Rise trigger, also.
Appreciate the input, folks!

It just really depends on whether you want a 2 stage trigger or a single stage.

Also, what is your use.

Geiselle's are 2 stage; you can buy the SSA-E as suggested for around $240, or maybe get it on sale for something less. Or you can buy the G2S, put a 3.5 lb trigger spring on & have the same trigger as the SSA-E for a lot less.

If you want a single stage trigger, the Elftmann Match trigger is unsurpassed, period. and expensive at $250.

Or the Elftmann Service trigger is also excellent for a little less.

I also have the Rise 535 & it is the best of the Rise triggers & is excellent...............it's non-adjustable but breaks like glass @ 4 lbs. each & evey time. It's a great trigger. But it's not cheap...........I got it from them gratis or I probably wouldn't have bought it.

MM

Trigger Tech makes a pretty nice drop in. They have an adjustable model but think it is over your budget.

I just finished updating one of my AR's and part of that was a Geissele SSA-E. Very happy with it. Bought 2 on sale.

The RRA 2 stage varmint trigger is about 3.5 lbs and a 3 min install and will cost about 90 bucks to your door. Best value in a AR trigger IMO.

Not knocking great triggers, but have to wonder "Why" unless one is going into combat, shooting competitively or the factory trigger sucks. (And yes, shooting "competitively" against yourself counts.)

I have a Timney on my 6.5-06AI. Great trigger, but I built the rifle for 1200 yards and use it to shoot clay pigeons at 600. For my other rifles, which never get shot past 600, a good trigger is "good enough", whether AR or bolt or lever. Given a decent trigger, I'd rather spend upgrade money on good barrel, better optics or a better stock.

Full disclosure: In addition to my Timney, I have a Wild West Guns trigger in my Marlin 375, a Ruger Elite 452 in one of my ARs and I've given a dozen Ruger bolt guns trigger jobs. One of these days I will probably buy Daughter #1 a replacement trigger for her Ruger 10/22 because the factory trigger feels like it has sand in it.

My question is basically this: In your experience, what does a $$$ Geisselle or whatever do for you that a a $90 RRA match or $150 CMC trigger won't do?

In all seriousness, I've never changed out a trigger in anything. It's always been a matter of learning that weapons quirks and flaws. The only trigger I've even installed was in the lower for my AR, and that was donated to my build by a friend as he upgraded to a Timmony trigger. I see the price tags on some of these triggers, and can't see how it could be worth the money.
This might sound like sacrilege, but to me, a trigger is just a trigger.

Well, that's really easy................gets rid of creep, grittiness & mushiness & replaces it with little or no creep, no grittiness. little to no take up, glass rod break & usually a faster reset, oh, did I mention consistency?

CMC triggers are not bad & I have used them, but surely not in the class of some of the other, better single stage triggers. (Read the assessment & look at the chart for a graphic view)

Read through this....................might help you out a bit.

www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/04/jeremy-s/ar-15-drop-in-trigger-roundup/

Of course, YMMV, & trigger feel is subjective & means more to some than others.

MM

You are a better man than me. A bad trigger drives me nuts!!!!! Although, if you are a spray and pray shooter, any trigger will work. For precision type shooting, a good upgraded trigger will really make a difference. If you don't believe me, ask the top 5-10 shooters in the black rifle challenge here, what kind of trigger they use. I bet most (if not all) will be using a matchgrade trigger of some type.

No, I was taught not to waste ammo. I will sight in a gun with two shots (as long as the first is on the paper) zero, fire, rezero, adjust to hole. Fire to confirm.

I love it!
The guy knows he wants a better trigger and has a $200 budget, and some of you guys that don't believe in good triggers are giving him advice.

Only on the fire.

How's wasting ammo & sighting in with 2 shots got anything to do with a bad or good trigger?

MM

It has to do with not being a spray and pray guy. I don't waste ammo.

I guess if you only fire three shots on a trip to the range to zero your rifle, a trigger becomes a minor thing.
I'm not sure exactly what "wasting ammo" is defined as, but I usually fire at least 100 rounds on each range trip, and I have found an excellent trigger adds immeasurably to both the enjoyment and the precision of my shooting.

I'm not arguing with you, nor telling anyone how to spend thier money. I am saying I can't see the benefit to me. It might be diffrent, if I were shooting competition, or maximum range, but the longest class A range here is 100yards. The nearest range is only 75 yards.
Ohio is fairly new to rifle, so I'm used to the accuracy of a shotgun for large game, and even with a sabot barrel, a rifle is more accurate than a shotgun. (With any factory trigger). And since I hunt meat, not scores, and what I pull a trigger on tends to oblige me, how could I justify the cost of the upgraded trigger?

Now, I'm not trying to derail this thread. I just mentioned that I couldn't see the value vs the cost, so I'm walking away here, to return this thread to it's intended path. My apologies to the OP.

A good trigger like a RR greatly improves Offhand shooting and even helps benchrest shooting. With a good trigger, you will actually have fewer misses in Offhand. Doesn't matter if that Offhand happens on the range or in the field.

Every now & then I try to ignore it by fielding an AR with a stock trigger, even one that feels pretty good to me. It never works. I always end up replacing the stock trigger.

I've never used a RRA Match trigger - are you saying they have "creep, grittiness & mushiness"? The CMC and some other lower cost (vs Geissele) triggers I've tried seemed pretty good but I've never tried a Geissele so I don't have a comparison point there, either.

While I hate crappy triggers (and love good ones), there seems to me to be point of diminishing returns. Caveat - I don't shoot competitively except against my previous efforts, and the chances of me seeing combat at 67 years old are pretty slim.

Larue MBT when its on sale for 99 bucks, I like it just as well as my more expensive ssa-e.

I think he misspoke there. Talking about stock triggers.


There are diminishing returns. The big jump in cost is from adding adjustability. Other than that, there isn't a whole lot of difference. Rolled steel instead of cast. The Geissele gives you a little faster locktime, but you probably won't notice that unless you compete at above a 95% level in HP Standing.

Good call...

First off, RRNM triggers are $120 list and on sale for around $89 and the Geissele G2S lists for $179 and goes on sale for $120. The $30 difference is worth it to me. The $279 triggers may be the berries but I'm not to that level.

You can't compare a bolt trigger with an AR trigger. The design of the standard AR trigger has some built in safety designs that won't allow it to be tuned good enough to compete with a good trigger and remain safe. I've seen too many "tuned" standard triggers have problems if they're shot enough. I have had a few decent standard triggers (after firing about 500 times) that were good enough to use on my Colt 6720 and a 6920 with irons and red dots or so I thought until I broke down and installed G2S's in both of them and I started shooting better. On a bench any trigger can be made to work but I shoot these 2 guns off hand and the 2 stage G2S's made a big difference. Maybe it's just me.

I don't waste ammo but I do shoot quite a bit and every shot I try to learn from.

I like things that work and if I'm hunting a coyote or shooting a match, there is no room for sub par parts. It has nothing to do with combat.

Amen!

Putting a quality trigger in just takes one more variable out of the equation. You can learn more and become more proficient with fewer variables to work around.

Ed

Best trigger in the world wont fix a bad barrel or a host of other problems.

Nope. Won't cure crappy shooting techniques, either.
Just one more variable eliminated.

Ed

Have you tried a Geissele SSA-E? IMHO it's way better than a RRNM. It's just nearly as good as a good bolt action trigger in the second stage and the 2 stage design makes it as safe as a stock trigger. On the second stage it only takes 2 lbs more to break. Just as you think you might be able to detect the smallest amount of creep it breaks,leaving you wondering if you really felt any creep at all. It's very easy to stage to the wall for targets,or just pull through in rapid fire.

The main thing is that the 2 stage design is safe and dependable. You aren't operation on minimum sear contact,like a single stage where a drop or hard hit could set it off. It's also an open design that isn't prone to being clogged up with debris like the closed box designs. IMHO it's the very best in a combat precision trigger. You aren't giving up anything over the GI design and you are gaining quite a bit in precision.

And a bad trigger won't help the best barrel out there... I can't tell if you actually like AR's or are trying to join the bolt only club.

I haven't tried the SSA-E mainly because I'm content with my G2S's, all 5 of them. I have in the past used Jewel, RRNM, Bushmaster, Millazzo, CMC and a few others out there but I like the G2S. It's got a clean break, fast lock time, won't break the bank and is as reliable as anything else out there without anything to come loose, break or wear. I can't say that for the RR, BM or Jewel for that matter.

I'm kind of indifferent to ARs even though I own three (.223/5.56, .300BLK and .308W). Much prefer bolts for most of my needs as I hate chasing brass and don't care for having a brass catcher attached to my rifle.

But that doesn't have much to do with my questions about AR triggers I've already swapped one out for a Ruger Elite 452. Would a Giessele really do anything for me? I'm not convinced.

Probably not. Every report I've seen on the Ruger is that it is a decent 2-stage trigger.

I've got four Geissele triggers; two G2S triggers, an SSA-E, and a Hi-Speed National Match.

The G2S are a great trigger and a bargain when they are on sale; I picked one up for $116 a couple of years ago. This trigger has the same pull weights as the SSA: 2-1/2 lb. first stage and 2 lb, second stage.
Brownells also sells a G2S-E enhanced version that has the same pull weights as the SSA-E: 2.3 lbs. first stage and 1.2 lbs. second stage. For the price this is probably the best bang for the Geissele buck.

I did not find much perceptible difference between the G2S and the SSA-E triggers, in fact when we measured pull weight on one of my buddies new SSA-E triggers and compared it to a broken in G2S I had, the G2S broke lighter.

The Hi-Speed National Match definitely provided a very noticeable improvement when shooting from the bench or prone, but I don't think it would be worth the extra cost if your shooting is mainly off-hand. It is an adjustable design that will go down to a .6 lb. pull on the second stage and it's a bit more complicated to install and adjust.

One thing about the open style (parts) triggers as compared to the cassette style "drop-in" triggers is you have easy access to the springs should you decide the trigger needs a bit of tuning.

The SSA-E trigger I linked to earlier is no longer on sale at Brownells but the G2S-E is now on sale with free shipping.

G2S-E trigger

Probably be a good idea to go to Geiselle's website & review the differences between the G2S, SSA & SSA-E triggers.

Or maybe read the post above which lists some of the differences correctly.

MM

And that's why I stated earlier that triggers are subjective..............what one person feels & wants & needs is not necessarily what another feels & wants & needs. Everyone is not created equal.

But rest assured, that for any kind of precision shooting, a clean & relatively light trigger will improve your scores or POA hits, with clean being more important than weight, within a reasonable range, but 7lb vs 2 lb is not a reasonable range to me, whereas the difference between 2 & 3 is.

MM

All I'll say is if you are pulling through the 2nd stage in a rapid fire string, you are not doing it correctly and in my prime I"d have beaten you every time.

Thats the joy of the 2 stage, you don't have to ignore the 2nd break, you expect it, get used to it, and ENJOY it for what its doing for you.

Lots of bolt gun shooters in across the course shot 2 stage also... and in long range. I'm not sure what the crowd goes with now as we only shot service rifle and I'm even lost in that crowd these days.

I pull to the 2nd stage, refine my aim and finish. It's all in one motion sort of but it gives me a safe light trigger. I find myself doing the exact thing with my Apex'd M&P9 pistol, it just works.

I think some target shooters have a different definition of "rapid fire" than the rest of us. I'm guessing MM was talking about pulling the trigger as fast as possible, not 1 round in 10 seconds or whatever the long range target shooters think is rapid fire.

MM -

I fully agree that a "clean & relatively light trigger" (what I would call a "decent" trigger) beats the heck out of a crappy one when it comes to precision shooting. That's why I've replaced a couple and reworked many (my Timney came pre-installed on a naked Interarms Mark X action that became my 6.5-06AI).

Tried to clean up a crappy, standard AR trigger (against the advice of rost495 and others) and ended up with a smooth trigger that fired twice - once on the backstroke and once on the reset. Now I see commercial triggers that do that, so maybe I was just ahead of the times. That AR got the Ruger trigger, which cut the group size considerably.

That's a good read. I found the comparison of the "casset" type drop-ins with a Geissele pretty interesting.



"For an even easier-to-visualize comparison, that’s the Geissele in bold sharing the same chart as the ELF, at the same scale as the graphs in this article. It travels more than twice as far and is a total creep monster in comparison. Heck, the $129 RISE black trigger is crisper and shorter than this $260 Geissele. Again though, nobody in their right mind would say that the SD-3G isn’t an excellent trigger."

Tmitch,
There's about 25 different Geissele triggers; which one would that be?

If you read the article it says SD-3G

LOL! The SD was *designed* to have a lot of creep!

That’s a pretty poor comparison. That trigger is designed and marketed as a “rolling break” and it really shouldn’t be compared to a traditional trigger.

Ummm NTIT is as fast as you can get aimed fire down range. Even unaimed if you don't care about winning... that was generally around 40 rounds give or take in 50 seconds including a reload....for me... tad bit different than 1 round in 10 seconds. Click,click, bang, repeat... faster than one can type it... IIRC the most hits I"ve ever had was 46...

That's funny. I guess some of these guys do suppressive fire with their semi autos.

Ever try to hit multiple small hogs running like Hell before they disappear into thick brush?

In this case, "suppressive fire" means trying to suppress the sheer numbers of hogs on a piece of property.

Ed

Dang sure a yes on pigs... doesn't take long for them to escape. Dang sure never got a 20 round mag off on them.. and the one dang time I found a sounder in an open field my nephew had my gun and was just wasting time... I should have taken it from him, but I really wanted him to get a hog.. that time I co uld have gotten 20 aimed shots off.

Tyrone, I wouldn't call aimed fire suppressive when each round hits the target.

Well it would still be suppressive if it him em wouldn't it?

Pigs, the one time I found a flock of them I was in a bad spot and my cousin dumped 6 or 7 of them after I got my one shot off. I've never been lucky.

Only hits count. If you are shooting faster than you can make good hits on your target, you are shooting too fast (unless it's suppressive fire). You are not going to make any hits, much less good hits, pulling the trigger as fast as possible unless your target is huge/close.

I'll let you all in on a little secret - Just because you have 60 seconds to get off 10 sustained fire shots doesn't mean you have to take that long. You just have to slow down enough to make good hits.

Some of the smart cookies finish with enough time to take care of any malfunctions/other screw ups.

How do you waste ammo if you like to shoot?

I guess "waste" is entirely subjective. To some, sighting in their rifle once a year or checking to make sure the rifle scope is still zeroed right before deer season is the only time they shoot. Those types have no clue what a "good/great" trigger is all about... I'm about to go to the range right now and "waste" some targets ... Absolutely NO ammo will be wasted. I'm taking my Noveske AR15 with its Geissele SSA-E out and compare that to my new AR10's national match trigger... That's a good measure of how one feels over the other. Just printed out some targets... Ye hah... See ya...

Um, I believe I know all that. LOL. Always had a buffer in rapids.

No buffers in NTIT because the targets just go away and you are "never" out of ammo depending on your fire plan.

I loved shooting straight away. But they generally had me as a swing man because I shot well and could snag NPA so I was still centered on the 2nd target after the mag change. I don't recall missing many shots. Only if the wind call was wrong.

And then you had to shoot so slowly at first for the coaches watching you, to see if the wind call was good before you could pick up the pace that it was annoying...

Anyway I don't shoot faster than I can make hits. Its counter productive IMHO.

Good thread, guys. I'm thinking of going with a Geissele, but we will see. Thanks for all the info.

340boy,

Give this a look when you have time, From the CEO himself, Bill Geissele lays it all out.

I like watching his videos.

I was gonna say Damn, Bill got some gray finally... then I looked in the mirror. LOL. Have not seen Bill in probably 15 years.

But knew him well enough to so if he makes it, then if its not the best, its gonna be damn close.

IMO the Rock River two-stage is tough to beat for the money. Especially when on sale.

I installed a Trigger Tech in one of mine not long ago and I love it. Pretty much anything you buy will make you happy over the factory trigger in your AR. And I think the Saint triggers are pretty good actually.



Travis

Incredible insight.

Thanks for sharing.




Travis

all can depend on how accurate you might want to be. Or how picky you are on a trigger

Well, A trigger is very important to me. I got spoiled with 1 1/2oz benchrest triggers. I am very sensitive to triggers. I've used mostly Geissele's on ARs, a Milazzo-Kreiger, and now looking at a Elftmann. The Geissele would be hard to beat.

I won some stuff at Perry once, when my M1A trigger went south and some soul "helped" me with some emory paper and I had a 7.5 pound trigger the rest of the matches.... but then again those places, likely would have been even higher with the trigger the way it was supposed to be. LOL.

I recently installed a CMC 3.5 lb. single stage trigger in my Bushmaster and it made all the difference in the world. The trigger change and finding the correct bullet weight changed it from a 5" shooter to a 1" shooter.

On sale, Geissele SSA-E. PSA runs then on sale with mags sometimes.

As a self admitted trigger freak, I would have been all over this discussion in years past. I now realize that triggers are a personal choice and not everyone likes their triggers as crispy as I do.
Here's what NTIT aka "Rattle Battle" looks like. Maybe not 3 gun fast, but probably a bit more precise. I can't figure out where the magazine change was or if it was lost in the edit;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ym5T6zb6c

That's a pretty good illustration of my earlier comment. Some (apparently rost495 for example) consider that rapid fire; for others that is considered more precise controlled fire, and rapid fire is something different entirely (and yes, still hitting the target, not spray and pray). 3 Gun is a good example. There is a difference in trigger manipulation between the video above and someone ringing steel with .1-.2 second splits.

Huge difference in targets too.
2 - 3 1/2 MOA for NRA HP and probably 20 MOA for most of the 3 Gun rapid fire targets. And unlike 3 Gun, in HP misses count.

In HP it's really hard to shoot fast enough to make up for a miss.

In my mind, when you get to where misses don't count other than the time it took to squeeze them, you are getting into suppressive fire territory.

Kinda cool video. I'll have to see if I can save it.

I THINK I could hear at least one mag change. And for those that say the shooting is slow, remember its slow when it starts to make sure the traces are center, and towards the end it picks up.
PLus they are limited on ammo due to the fire plan that maxes out the score.

Most folks are somewhat amazed when you see this done quickly at 600 yards with irons out of sling.

But then again the speed of 3 gun amazes me because I've never shot it. I don't doubt that getting that down too, would require some work, but that its doable for most that really want to.

Be nice if there was a vid when they were allowed to start firing and dump as many as they could at 600 without waiting on the coach for confirmation, IE just playing around.

I didn't say it was slow. I said there's a difference in how one controls the trigger between that and what's considered rapid fire in other shooting circles. If you don't try to take my words out of context, you might not feel the need to get defensive.

Tyrone, your comments about suppressive fire really have nothing to do with the discussion. We're talking about triggers, not whether one group of people shoot more precisely than another.

I had something more to share, but on second thought I won’t since it would take the discussion a bit further into the weeds.

That was a comment, not a dig. The shooting does seem slow compared to other sports. No doubt. But thats mostly due to the distance, and the fire plan. Plain and simple. No out of context or anything, I was simply explaining it a bit further.

And for sake of commenting, if you use the timing of highpower "rapid" fire strings the shooting gets even slower. Becuase of time allowed. If less time was allowed...

You know each game has its own rules.

That said we shot carbine now and then in IDPA and I never had an issue with 2 stage triggers there at all. Targets were big and time was in issue, and while I wasn't winning, we never faired bad either.

But as Chris notes triggers are very much an issue to the owner and if the owner is happy, thats all that matters, its why its so hard to comment really, without others saying, try this, try that...

And in a perfect world I'd love to try them all... but it won't happen and then you'll only have the opinion of ( at one time or another) NTIT, NRA and CMP highpower, IDPA, IPSC, plinker and hunter. No more no less.

Rost, how do you feel about a good national match trigger?

Crisp break, is about the most important thing for me, since our rules said we had to have 4.5 pound minimum triggers meaning we ran closer to 5 so we would never fail a weight check.

I've yet to pull a single stage AR trigger that I like.

But as I've noted, its all so personal.

We still have some Krieger Milazzo from back in the day. Today I'd get with Bill at Geiselle since I"ve known him and shot with him and let him guide me if I needed more serious triggers.

In the meantime I make do with RRA varmint and tweak em a bit if I have to.

Thanks rost. Lately, i seem to like the national match triggers. I like them smooth/clean and crisp too. I really dont like them too light, want to feel the pressure wall, for a more controlled feeling. Hard to explain. One thing i do know, i dont like a gritty trigger..

And I think the term is supposed to be 2 stage triggers. National Match just should mean that it conforms to the national match rules. Generally service rifle at 4.5 pounds minimum, match at no minimum?

I've had Jewels on bolt guns 2 stage 8 oz triggers, trust me you can feel the 2nd stage... but its not good training to go back to a 4.5 pound trigger then. LOL.

"National Match" is the term for rifles built by or modified to specs put out by the arsenals. I believe it started with the 1903 Springfields and applied to the M1 Garand and the M14. There never was a "National Match" spec put out for the M16 and the modifications were largely driven by the civilians (aside from some early efforts at Rodman Labs). We in the highpower competitive world chuckle at the proliferation of "National Match" labeled AR parts and rifles (Some of which are clearly not Service Rifle Competition legal) when there really is not a NM standard.

You simply are leading a very sheltered life, then.

The best single stage triggers like the Elftmann Match & the Rise 535 are everything that you are saying you want in a trigger except that they are not 2-stage.

............and they will be dead solid crisp with zero creep.

MM

I will be putting together another lower on Sunday.It will have an Elftmann.Never used one, but will soon.

I need to get up to speed on the new generation of single stage AR triggers. Back in the early days of AR triggers, you basically had JP and Accuracy Speaks and later JARD. Crispy was achieved by reducing engagement, which ran counter to safety in a semi auto. The true two stage triggers captured hammer until you hit the 2nd stage, so there was a huge extra measure of safety. Jeff's and my baggage is that we shoot/shot service rifle which mandated a 4-1/2 lb. or higher trigger. That was asking a lot for a single stage to achieve while getting to crispy. I'll see if I can find someone with a Elftmann or Rise trigger to educate myself.

Both Rise & Elftmann make several models; the Rise trigger to buy if you want the highest level of performance is the RA-535 Advanced Performance Trigger.

With Elftmann, the Match Trigger & the 3-Gun are both great; they both have a half cock notch & are adjustable from 2.5 - 4 lb.

The Rise RA-535 is non-adjustable at 4 lb. & is a little heavier than I'd really like, but probably the cleanest trigger AR trigger I've pulled. Noticeably crisper than any of the Geiselle's that I have.

The Elftmann Match is about as clean, but can easily be adjusted down to 2.5 lb. & with the half cock notch, is very safe.

MM

What is a "half cock notch" on an AR?

Currently I have AR's with timney, cmmc, RR national match and Larue tactical. I have used most variations of the Giessele. Bang for the buck, the larue is hard to beat, great price, good feel and durable as hell. Best advice is to try few triggers that your friends use and see which one best suits you.

Sheltered. Just the way I like it. And hopefully soon we won't have to see many people each day. Don't care for people that much either. LOL.

At some point, since I have 1 or so lowers in the safe, I'll buy an elftmann just to see. Figure can't loose much if I don't like it anyway.

Isn't it great that the AR continues to develop, and more and or better options?

The flip side is when you and your wife have likely shot a million times with the AR, you get used to what you use and other things don't feel right. Heck we are both still getting used to the feel of Glock triggers. The good thing is we can bounce back and forth between all kinds of triggers and still do great.

Elftmann has a half cock notch on the hammer that functions same as a 1911..........if the hammer drops w/o the trigger being pulled, as in being dropped, the H/C will catch it & stop the gun from going off.

MM

If you don't like it, I'll buy it from you...........or trade you a Geisselle for it.

MM

So if I went to buy one today, rise or elftman?Any specifics I need to know before googling?

Elf is adjustable & has a half cock safety notch; Rise is not adjustable & is a 4 lb trigger.

Maybe a slight edge to the Rise in feel, very slight, but the other features of the Elf make it the overall better choice, IMO.

And it's crisp.

If you watch the sales at Granite Ridge Outfitters, I've found the lowest prices on the Elf there.............but only occasionally & usually right around $200-210 for a $269 trigger, Match version. I have not used their 3-Gun or Tactical versions.

I got the Rise out of the factory for free; it's about $235 retail, & I rarely see the RA-535 model (by far the best of the Rise group) discounted at all.

MM

I"m not using a single stage thats 4 pounds. LOL. The purpose of single stage to me is to be light. 2 pounds or so would be what I"m after in a single stage. If I used a 4 pound single stage I'm pulling 4 pounds.. If I use a 4.5 pound 2 stage I"m likely pulling around 2 or 3 pounds max on the 2nd stage...

I'l check out the Elf some. And maybe watch the sales!

To me, it's not just a matter of weight, it's also how crisp it is & how it breaks.

Also depends on the use.

I'd rather have crisp 4 lb trigger than a creepy/mushy 2.5 lb one............& the Rise is extremely crisp with absolutely no take up & the breaks is absolutely like glass. Maybe not as light as would be preferred for a pure LR rifle, but for just about anything else it works just fine.

MM

I"m with you on the mush, so I"m learning, Elf might be lighter but must have some mush. Rise has none at all, I'll go back and look at them again, maybe they have a 3 or so pound one. 2.5 would sure be nice, but we'll just have to decide one day.

That's a weird way to think of it. Even if the second stage is 2 pounds, you're still pulling that weight plus the initial 2.5 pounds; it's 4.5 lb total either way. That first stage doesn't go away when you get to the second stage. At the break it's not really any different than a single stage 4.5 lb trigger.

It's the trip not the pull. The first stage is pulled to the wall and held then it only takes 2.5 lbs to break the shot. It's the finesse at the end that disturbs the sights less than a solid 4.5 lb pull.

You're talking my language! I like crispy. The Geisselle is very crispy. The crispiest I have are the Knights.
A while back there were folk talking up the AR Gold Triggers being the most crisp ever. I got to play with one on the range. Then I pulled out my Service Rifle with a 4-1/2 lb Geisselle (HS-NM). That ended that discussion.

We Service Rifle shooters play tricks on ourselves to manage a 4-1/2 lb trigger. (mine is more like 4-3/4 lb). Loading most of the weight on the first stage can allow for a 2nd stage break that appears much lighter than 4-1/2lbs. It goes something like this...you're shooting standing in a decent breeze...your sights are wobbling from one side of the 8 ring to the other side. While you're on the black, you take up the 3-3/4 first stage, and hold it at the 2nd stage stop. When the sights drift back into the 10 ring, your subconscious mind pushes that last 3/4 lb and the shot goes. There is danger in putting too much of your weight on the first stage...we also have to shoot a "rapid" fire stage and pulling through (missing the 2nd stage stop) is a definite issue when you have too much bias on the first stage.

I will hunt down folk with an Elftmann and Rise triggers. I do know that the "go fast" crowd likes a shorter reset than we do (although we can kinda get there with a "Trophy" trigger technique.)

I have 3 Knight's, including one LPR...............while they are good for a factory stock trigger, they are not as good as a Geiselle (depending on version), an Elftmann, or a Rise, by good amount, IMO.

The trigger that was in the Knights's LPR, has been replaced & now resides in a gun intended for things not quite so demanding.

MM

No not really, it still takes 4.5 lb to break the shot; it's 2.5 lb more on the second stage, not 2.5 lb total. Like ChrisF said, it's just a way to trick your mind, but the physical effect isn't much different than just preloading a single stage trigger by the same amount.

It is different. A lot different.

I don't know how to explain, but when you take a 4.5lb trip over a sear, it's a lot different that taking a 2.5lb trip over a sear. The 1st stage isn't moving sear engagement. All the movement of a single stage is moving sear engagement.

You don't have to try to explain it, I shoot some 2 stage triggers as well, but your explanation really isn't accurate. It's still 4.5 lb to trip that second stage, the first stage just makes it feel like less. It's really not less, and the effects from release and overtravel are the same as a single stage 4.5 lb trigger.

"It's really not less, and the effects from release and overtravel are the same as a single stage 4.5 lb trigger."

I'll have to disagree with this statement, that goes against the whole reasoning behind the 2 stage trigger but it's no big deal.

That is sort of true. ...but can you preload a single stage to 3-3/4 lbs consistently? I certainly can't. I take that back. I coach junior sport air rifles. Some of the untuned Daisy triggers have a mile of creep, and some have a repeatable "hitch" just before it breaks. I can use that as a hold/stop before I bust it.
It's easier to add that last 3/4 lb on demand than it is to add 4-1/2 lb on demand. That 3-3/4 lb you're holding on the first stage fades into the background and is a non issue. I don't know a single Service Rifle competitor that shoots a single stage anymore.

MontanaMan,
That is 180 deg counter to my experience. I had to go check the KAC webpage to see if the trigger design is the same. The few pics I could find look like a rougher version of what I have. Mine were made in Vero Beach. FWIW, when GD Tubb ran a large frame AR, he felt the KAC Trigger had the best feel. I'll try to get some pics up.

That's interesting; as far as I know, all 3 of the ones I have were built in Titusville & are not special in any way, so far as the build goes.

The LPR was one of the very last MOD 1's to be built with the heavier Kreiger 18" barrel before they lightened it & changed it to a MOD 2, & I'm not sure they still use Kreiger barrels exclusively anymore either. The trigger was way better than any stock trigger, but not quite as good as a higher end Geiselle..........it's better now as I cleaned it up a bit & put a lighter trigger spring in it, but it's in another gun now.

The other 2 are just run-of the mill 16", SR-15's; one is a MOD 1, one is a MOD 2. Triggers in both of those were not quite as good as the trigger in the LPR, but still waaaaaaaaaaaay better than a stock AR type trigger & are perfectly fine for a tactical or home defense weapon.

Best guns available IMO................they just flat out work, everyday, all day.

MM

I've never felt, and read that right, FELT, that a single stage 4.5 feels the same as the 2nd stage of a 4.5.

All there is to that, is MY FEELING, well that and most others I shot with.

YMMV of course.

No disagreement with that, but I didn't say a 2 stage trigger feels the same as a single stage. How do you completely miss what I said there?

You keep saying 4.5 is 4.5... at least thats the way I quickly glanced at and read...

After 11 pages, you'd think we are all now educated on drop in triggers..

Ha Ha! Well, not as bad as the Deer Hunting forum where some misfits from another forum have filled 107 pages over a theoretical change to WI crossbow season.