This might stir the pot a bit but.....
Why do I as a Canadian require the services of an Outfitter/Guide to hunt in my own country? Here in Alberta as a resident I can hunt any legal species of game yet travel to another province and all of a sudden I am not qualified to hunt on my own. A deer is a deer, a moose is a moose, an elk is an elk etc.
Move to another province and I am a resident qualified to hunt there after a few months. Other than economics, is there a good reason why this is so?
Just seems to me, if I am born a Canadian then I should be able to hunt/fish as a Canadian.
What say the "Fire?

troutfly;
OK, now you�ve done it!

Until 9/11, it was less hassle for folks in BC to go down to Wyoming or Montana to chase pronghorn than to hunt next door in Alberta. That from folks who tried or did both, not personal experience.

I think I can now go back to the farm in Saskabush and chase whitetails without a guide, but I don�t believe I can chase mule deer with my nephew around Moose Jaw even if he�d guide me.

Frankly I can�t think of a logical reason that these rules are in place other than they were put in place at the behest of the guide/outfitting industry.

If you�ve followed any of the guide/outfitter vs. resident �discussions� that take place here on this side of the hills, you know it�s a hot topic. If you go onto the HuntingBC site sometime when it comes up it makes the Campfire seem downright polite and sedate!

I could see having a guide maybe for �wilderness areas� or for grizzled bears where the neophyte can get beaten on I guess, but that would presuppose one born and raised in downtown Vancouver is better equipped to deal with bears than an Albertan from a ranch near, lets say Edson for the sake of argument.

Anyway, as I�ve said before, I�ve friends who guide and friends who strongly believe there should be no non-resident hunting, so I�ve heard most if not all sides of the debate.

For myself, I�d like to chase mule deer on the Milk River maybe, perhaps with that nephew near Moose Jaw or even near my grandfather�s old spread on the Forty Mile Coulee without having to hire a guide or get a resident sponsor.

Being nothing if not a realist with a slightly pessimistic lean, I�m not holding my breath!

Here�s to a good weekend for you and yours.

Dwayne

troutfly,

I'm not Canadian, but I surely do have an opinion. It's BS and that's all it is. I've no doubt there are some "Guides" who would disagree. Some states in the U.S. also have such restrictions.

This is the last year that Non-Resident Canadians can buy a tag for whitetails in Saskatchewan.I believe next year there will be a draw to limit numbers.This regulation was pushed through by Saskatchewans Guide/outfitters.The Guide Outfitters of BC will make sure that other Canadians cannot hunt big game unguided in BC.They are very successful in their lobbying of Government,to the point where their allocations are increasing while those for BC Residents are decreasing. Monashee

Dwayne, I know I've "gone and done it" with this post. lol

Just thought it was worthy of serious discussion. It is something which I have given much thought to over the years.
And yes, I do know how much of a hot button issue it is in BC.

Seriously though, I feel if one is a Canadian citizen then one should be able to hunt and fish across Canada without the need for a guide. When I was in the Forces, I was posted in Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario. Within a few months of moving to each province, I was deemed a Resident and could hunt/fish/trap at will as the seasons dictated. All I had done was live there for a few months. Move away and all of a sudden you are required to hire a guide to hunt if returning on vacation. What changed other than my address?

I realize there are some who are against anyone hunting/fishing in a province if they do not live there. I also agree that anyone who is not a Canadian Resident should be required to hire an outfitter/guide to hunt, after all those folks are not Canadian residents. Same as if you or I were to travel to another country. What I am struggling with is the concept of being born and bred a Canadian yet being treated as though I am not competent enough to find my way in the wilds of Canada.

I am a "Resident Hunter" ie I only hunt where I live but I do live in Canada. I'm not a trophy hunter, I hunt for food and pleasure. I would like to climb into my truck and and just head out across this great land of ours and hunt and fish at my leisure. Tired of Rotten Ronny burgers on the road? Look over there, that is a nice cutline over there beside that beaver pond. I sure do like pan fried trout along side roasted fresh grouse breast, but dang it, I don't live in Newfoundland so I can't legally harvest those grouse.

For the most part, our Fish and Wildlife regulations are pretty much the same Canada wide so that would not be an issue. So yes, you are quite correct in stating that it is likely industry driven. I realize there are folks in Canada who travel across the country to go on outfitted hunts but compared to the money spent by non-resident alien hunters I think that the industry would still survive if Canadians were able to hunt unfettered across Canada.

I'm not suggesting a Canada wide tag, the provinces should still control them as each region has management goals etc. Just factor in X number of tags for the travelling Canadian. Price them fairly and drop the requirement for hiring a guide. I have never been on a guided hunt nor do I want to go on one. I can think of much better uses for the several thousand dollars an outfitted trip often costs. No, I don't holiday in Mexico either, I spend my money at home. (I do visit Branson Missouri fairly regularly but that is because my Mom and Dad live there. We do take in the shows but my reason for being there is family)

I thought it was likely similar in the US. Same thing, there: US resident should be able to hunt hunt country wide w/o guide restrictions in your own country.

The only situations in the USA that require a non-resident to hire a guide is Alaska for Mountain Goat, Sheep and Grizzly/Brown Bear. Non resident aliens in Alaska need a guide for all big game hunting. This was started because there were parties of over 50 hunters coming in from Northern Europe and the First Nations people and the residents got upset which is understandable. If they would have limited there hunting parties to 2 to 4 hunters no one would have complained. I far as I know no other state restricts non-resdient aliens to guided hunts.

In the wilderness areas of Wyoming a non-resident needs a guide. This law will one day be tested in court and if over turned then the Alaskan law will follow. I do not know if it will effect t he non-resident alien law.

Within the last few years, I have become aware of a number of Canadian hunters in my home state of Montana. I understand one wanting to hunt antelope. One of the reason is that they are here is because of the guide laws in Canadian for non resident hunters. If one is from eastern Canadian and wants to hunt elk in Canadian then they must hire a guide so instead they come to the states -- I welcome them. I am not for allowing Americans to hunt in Canadian without a guide because the same situation would happen that happen in Alaska.

The best kept secert is New Zealand. One does not need a guide as of yet.

Caribou hunting: non-residents can only obtain the hunting licences for sector B of zone 22 winter and for the zone 23 (north) autumn and winter. Non-residents must use the services of an outfitter. A specific licence is available for non-residents domiciled in Canada.
White-tailed deer hunting: non-residents are not entitled to hold a licence to hunt antlerless deer (random draw) or a 1st harvest antlerless deer hunting licence (random draw).
Moose hunting: non-residents are subject to the measure that applies to the zone licence (see page 8). He may however use his licence even if it is bought during the firearm hunting season. He cannot be the holder of a moose cow hunting licence (random draw).
Black bear and american woodcock hunting: non-residents must make use of at least two services of an outfitter, including lodging, unless they are hunting this species in a wildlife sanctuary or a controlled zone (zec). Furthermore, the non-resident who hunts black bear at an outfitter without exclusive rights in zones 13 and 16, must in addition to his regular bear hunting licence, be holder of a special licence issued by this outfitter.


taken from http://www.mrnf.gouv.qc.ca/english/...ulations/special-rules/non-residents.asp

can be understable for Caribous as most hunters never been in the far north and are urban so mostly we can agreed on that but and for canadian from other provinces there is a specific tag ... that question is so true for black bear and woodcock nothing can tell me why ...!!

Yeah, I hadn't checked for all 50 states, but the Alaskan example was what stood out to me when I first saw this thread and made my first post. I hope it does get challenged and falls. I can understand with foreigners, especially if coming in such large groups. But I fail to understand the need for Alaska to restrict American citizens that way; likewise, for Canadians in their country.

I think BC30 hit the nail on the head when he blamed the guiding industry. They're the only ones that have a stake in it so they're the logical suspects.

You think it's bad down there, try moving North. 2 years to become a resident to hunt big game. Then deal with the "private lands" in the various settlement areas and it's near enough to make you want to move.

That is one of the reasons I never tried to get a posting to Yellowknife. Most postings to areas like that are only two years so I would have been living in paradise yet unable to sample it without spending mega bucks.

This a good discussion. That was my reason for posting it, just to get folks thinking and some honest, non BS opinions. I truly feel that one should be able to hunt anywhere in your own country but as BC30 said, it is an industry driven requirement.
Can it be changed, I don't know? Constitutional challenge?
It is interesting that the Outfitter/Guide industry hasn't the same sway as here in Canada.
Have a great weekend folks.

Money.

Okanagan;
If I wanted to, I could have written a response that succinct too�.

OK, maybe not�.

Oh, they are starting to get some cherries in Osoyoos I hear. Is there any particular type that you are looking for?

Dwayne

Hi Dwayne,
I guess that means the BC fruit trucks will be in Medicine Hat soon. Sure is nice to get fresh cherries, buy a basket and they don't always make the 15 min drive home.
Have a great weekend,
Jeff

The main political reason for exclusion of / discrimination against non-resident Canadian hunters is the Natural Resources Transfer Agreement dated about 1935. The feds gave up the administration of non-migratory wildlife. Each province has exclusive jurisdiction over wildlife resources, - and in every province, the attitude is "the rest of Canada be damned". One of the many ways our federation is less than perfect. Our wildlife department is not legally required to cater to non-voters, so they gouge them or shut them out.
As far as mule deer hunting is Saskatchewan goes, ( or Elk for that matter) it never was available to guided hunters, so the argument that the restriction is due to the outfitters is not logical. Mule deer and Elk have been restricted mostly because of supply and demand, and the influence of the Wildlife Management advisory board, which has been strongly influenced the the Sask Association of Rural Municipalities. SARM has lobbied against out of province hunters on our agricultural land for some time.
It is kinda sad if access to whitetail hunting is becoming more restricted to other Canadians though, I wasn't aware of that.

Jeff;
Thank you kindly, we will do our best to do that.

As it was a late spring here, I'm not sure how many cherries there will be.

I live here in the apple growing part of the world and I prefer cherries.

You folks have a good week end as well Jeff.

Dwayne

castnblast;
Thanks for that explanation, I either forgot that was the case in Saskatchewan or never knew in the first place.

Thanks again and I hope you and yours have a good week end.

Dwayne

Dwayne, thanks for the update. We're after the dark red cherries: Bings, Lapins, etc. I think the yellow ones like Royal Anne ripen first.

I'm heading to a wedding in Merrit today and it is tempting to go on over the hill. If you're around your computer this morning, PM me. Another week sounds like it would be closer to prime cherry time.

The simple fact is that hunting and fishing is regulated by the provinces,not by the federal government.As such,each province can do as it pleases.

We have the same instances here in the states. A hair dresser can move to Alaska and hunt all manner of game on their own after a year. As a nonresident I will need a guide for brown bear, sheep, goats, and musk ox. Same if I want to hunt in a wilderness area in Wyoming for elk. I'll need a guide there, but not on the rest of their national forest.

Me thinks it's due to successful politicing by the guides and outfitters. If one can not generate a product or service that will stand on its own in the market place, have the government mandate it use.

It is a serious PIA, one I realize won't likely change but I had to ask for discussion sake.
I fully understand hiring a guide in another country but in your own country it just makes no sense.

Why only hunters and in a few instances, fishermen but anyone can wander off into the back country to hike or pick berries etc totally on ones own.

Anyhow, I posted this to get some good discussion going, not to rant or troll. Off season idleness kicked in, and it was time to inquire as I have been thinking about this for quite some time.

Have a great season folks, catch some fish and hopefully all who applied for hunting draws get what they need.
Due to work commitments, I'm only hunting birds this fall, grouse, pheasants and waterfowl. Should keep me busy though.

One of the reasons stated for the hiring of guides for out of state/ non-resident hunters is the extra costs incurred by the host in locating and rescueing "LOST HUNTERS" unfamiliar with the area.

Guide and outfitter agendas aside, sure i'd like to hunt Whitetails in the breaks in SW Manitoba or the grouse and woodcock in Quebec but I've got all the sporting opportunities I need here in SW Ontario.

Now the cost of Rocky Mountain Bighorn or Dall ram, that's another subject...

Revenue from hunting licences has never paid the bill for wildlife management in B.C. The total costs are supported from monies from within the Provincial general tax base. Non-resident Canadians do not contribute to the general tax base here or in other provinces. Simply put the B.C. Government wants you to leave more money behind (guide fees e.g.) so that a portion will find it's way into the tax base. Of course the guide outfitters will support that concept and always have but I don't know that they originated the concept. Allowing residents to get permits for accompanying non-residents is one of the last of the reciprocal arrangements (not formalized at all and could disappear anytime ) that exist and it is really no more than a courtesy.
At one time we used to get a deal on Alberta bird licences. That disappeared many years ago.

I too am quite happy with the selection of wildlife available to hunt here in Alberta. Each province and territory has it's own bounty of game, some the same animals, others different. It just seems odd that as Canadians, we have to spend incredible amounts of money to hunt our own country.

Stocker and others seem to have hit it on the head, it is a money issue driven mainly by the Guide Assoc in each province, more so I think than by the Provincial Govts trying to top up the coffers. I wasn't suggesting paying less for the tags, just not hiring a guide. The govt makes the bucks from the tag sales.

I'm not anti guide/outfitter, if I were to hunt in another country I would expect to hire a guide/PH and expect Non Res Aliens in Canada to do the same.

Anyway, its been a good discussion, no blood drawn I think and as it is now Sunday evening lets have this one close. Thanks for the opinions.
Jeff

Exactly,we as residents of Alberta pay taxes that build and maintain the roads,pay the forestry staff,game wardens,etc to maintain our roads,forest,and to monitor the hunting a fishing in our provinces.I don't feel obligated to offer hunting to people from other provinces unless they pay more towards our province and the maintaining of our resources and facilities.The extra $100 or so for a license does not pay their share.

Revenue from hunting licenses has never paid the bill for wildlife management because it never got the opportunity to do so. Instead, it went right into general revenue where it was then allocated to various projects and administration. That the monies for wildlife management came from general revenue, is a red herring.
Having said that, I see no reason to not charge more for non-residents (Canadian or otherwise) to hunt but also see no reason to mandate the hiring of a guide/outfitter other than to satisfy the Association. GD

I would be perfectly content to drop the guide requirement,but raise the cost of non resident tags by a few hundred dollars in return.Let the non residents pay their share.

greydog:
The fish and wildlife budget has exceeded licence revenue by a large margin for a lot of years. The budget is subsidized by general revenue. No red herring there at all except in your mind

I'm going to assume you have a better source than I can find for this. The budget doesn't even list Fish and Wildlife expenditures or revenues as a separate item. The Ministry of the environment is so all-encompassing that it's pretty difficult to separate out Fish and Wildlife spending from amongst all the other Evironmental/Parks/Special Strudies spending. In the Ministryof the Evironment revenues, hunting and fishing licences are not listed as a separate item. In the overall budget they are undoubtedly part of the 2 1/2 billion in revenues listed under "other licences and fees". It would take me months to sort it out but I'll try and get to it.GD

Within the Ministry the greatest part of licence revenues is for water licences. Hunting and fishing licences are a drop in the bucket by comparison. I worked for and maintain contacts in the Ministry.

Are you sure stocker?I pay well over $200,some years $300 for various licences and tags.My water licence is $36 for 5 years! Monashee

Monashee: but you aren't B.C. Hydro or Alcan with their huge dams or a commercial/industrial user or farm irrigator or major city I'd guess. I don't know if any of those escape significant user fees. Individual domestic use is relatively low priced as you generally supply your own works. Start by looking at the total number of resident hunters. Somewhere under 100,000 now, I think closer to 70,000. Some are seniors like me and we get a cheaper basic licence for both hunting and fishing . Many of them buy no species licences as bird hunters or only one to four. I'd guess a provincial average for residents is closer to $100.00 each or thereabouts. Non-residents higher of course but much fewer of them. All combined might pay the base salaries and field operating costs of the C.O. Service alone. That still leaves fisheries staff, wildlife staff, administrative staff from Victoria through almost every office in the Province, senior management right to the deputy Minister level, building rentals for offices and warehousing , vehicle leasing, equipment acquisition (other than cars and trucks, all leased and that ain't cheap) but including boats, quads, snow-mos, aircraft/helicopter rentals .etc.. It would be a far stretch to cover those from fishing licence sales.

Its a revenue and a liability issue.

They know that their wild game is a valuable resource that people will pay through the nose to acquire, and that there is a lot more money to be made for both the gov't and local economies if people can't "DIY" it. Of course they can't do that w/ those who live in that province cuz they're the tax payers.

They also don't need the bad publicity of some know-nothings getting lost and dying in their wilderness.

I'm a state's rights guy, so while it is disappointing, I shrug and figure that they can charge whatever they want to, and I'll take my money elsewhere unless whatever they have is valuable enough that I think it is worth my while to hire a guide.

It's pretty simple to me. If you want to hunt a province unencumbered by provincial non resident regulations, then move to that province and become a resident, with all the positive and negative things that come with that province. I don't expect other provinces to freely share their natural resources with me, so why should they expect that of my province?

I wouldn't worry to much about regulations this summer and autumn. The AUPE that represent 125 fish and wildlife officers announced that they wouldn't be able to patrol in a proactive manner since of budget cut backs. Unions just do what they want I guess. LOL

That is my point: I can and have moved to several provinces, become a resident with all the hunting/fishing opportunities as a resident without doing anything other than moving/living there for x amount of months there. What is the difference between that and being born and raised a Canadian and being able to hunt as a Canadian across Canada without requiring an Outfitter/Guide? FWIW, I chose to retire from the Canadian Forces in Alberta because Alberta offers what I see as the best hunting ops for me and have no desire to relocate again. Just thinking outside the box as a Canadian.

I would like to know for sure on the Sask hunting thing...I have heard that it isn't true as well. We go every year and it would suck if that had to stop. I am sure local businesses will voice their opinions soon if that happens...there is alot of money dumped into the local economy the small towns when the nonresident hunters come. I know for our group we dump a couple thousand dollars into the locals pockets between gas and lodging for a week.

On the other hand I do see it from their point of view...meaning the sportsman, not the guides/outfitters.

AS for the guide thing, personally I think they should be limited in Alberta to guiding only on crown land/forestry, and only for animals that residents can get general tags for...if residents have to put in for a draw for an animal, the outfitters should not be given tags for it.

I dont see anything wrong with the hunter host type of program either, its good to be able to have your family/friends come in to hunt with you.

The difference is that wildlife is owned and controlled by individual provinces. If someone wants what a province has, move there. You don't want to relocate, but that is your choice.

It seems like this is a discussion involving two-and-a half provinces! B.C., Alberta and Sask. Oh yeah, almost forgot Que jumped in once or twice.

I've lived (really with my wife and family)in four Canadian provinces: N.B.(my native province, Quebec for about 20 years, N.S. for four, and Ont. for 30). As to hunting opportunities (variety of game, costs, etc)I'd rate Ont. first, N.B. second, N.S. third and Que. last because we lived in the Montreal area and had to go too far to hunt. Now my wife and I live in Central Ontario and hunting on Crown Land is within a hour's drive from my door. Private land hunting is well within one-half hour, depending on species. For moose (adult), I have to go to the N.W. of the province to be assured a tag. That's expensive. Bear hunting is close by as well as coyote hunting. I don't hunt deer much any more as it's difficult to get permission on private land that's not over crowded. To a certain extent, same goes for public land. Few residents hunt bear so there are lots of opportunities and I bait on both private and Crown land. It's now my favorite hunt because basically I'm alone in the woods, except sometimes with a partner. I wolf hunt in the same area as I bear hunt, only later during winter months. I've NO lack of opportunities to hunt in my province. I'm also a member of a well known gun range, so I've no lack of opportunity to shoot as well. I'm a rich man (not really - but you know what I mean)

The policy of the Ontario Gov't has been, for several years, to make the Ministry of Natural Resources (hunting and fishing dept's)self sustaining. It has meant some cuts but by and large they've succeeded. I've no complaints about that, and no need to hunt in the rest of Canada as we have an ample supply of big game in our province. Although, I nearly went to Que. this past spring for a bear hunt on a zec that is only 4hrs. from here. On a Zec I didn't need an outfitter. The only reason I decided against it was because a partner I was counting on was unable to go because of other committments.

The only restrictions on my hunting activities are time and finances. I assume it's the same for all hunters, worldwide. I really have no complaints.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

interesting topic legislators legislate driven of course by the squiky wheel guides outtfitters ..burocrats dominate politions we can try to chane them but there is now death taxes and user fees good luck .....a spinnnnnnn off topic why do i need adifferent drivers licence because i move to a different provencefor 6 months ...ba humbug.

Rob,check this years Saskatchewan Regs or the Website Re:Non Resident Canadian Whitetail hunting.It says changes are in store for 2010,and all my buddies back there tell me it will be a draw,so many permits per area or WMU.

I always thought it was more of an issue regarding knowledge of the local hunting regulations, not whether or not a non-res can hunt by him/herself.

Good to go in Manitoba as a non-res canadian. Only caribou requires outfitter. Moose,bear,deer,bird licenses are available over the counter.
Non-res cdn can go in BC without outfitter as well for certain species, just have to get a friend to sponsor you.

I had forgotten that about Manitoba. Thanks for that.

All, FWIW, I posted this thread not to discuss non-res tag prices, just why do Canadians need to use a guide in thier own country. Two different subjects. I wasn't meaning to insinuate that all Canadians should be able hunt for the same price across the country.