Hello all -
Let's re-ask the question.
Want a grouse dog for Vermont, NH, and Maine.
Cover can be close - there are no pheasants.
Will probably never hunt ducks or geese.
Dog will be a pet as much as a hunter.
Uninterested in black labs.

Thoughts and comments, please?
Harold

Here's my opinion, and as always, it is subject to change without notice. Vermont gets cold, so a dog with a substantial coat is optimal. Grouse and Woodcock (ought to be one word) hold well for pointing dogs and there is a certain ambiance about a handsome setter on point, in a New England grouse covert, with the forest ablaze in fall color. There is nothing that would fulfill this sportsman's fantasy of mine like one or two of those stunning Gordon Setters of Bucktales'. A dream walking, in my opionion.

On the more practical side, a black dog might disappear in some of the dark, tight places I find Ruffies. So an English Setter might be a better choice. The other consideration is your experience with dog training. Pointers are a bit more complicated to train than flushing breeds, so a well bred spaniel is probably the best option if you have never trained a hunting dog before.

I have a young Golden Retriever and he is a pretty good upland dog who puts up birds on our walks. He started doing so with very little training beyond basic obedience and he naturally stays within gun range. Great nose and he quarters naturally. My Golden is a bigger dog than a dedicated Grouse hunter needs, though. Many field bred Goldens top out at 60 lbs. or so, but mine is over 80 in fighting trim. His coat is coarser--and less flowing--than what people imagine when they think of Swamp Collies, and it is self cleaning. One good shake and all the mud flies right off. Much lower maintenance than he looks. A field bred Golden is an easy dog to get along with--if a bit hyper as a youngster--but the dogs are not widely available.

Bottom line: I'd look for a good Springer Spaniel from a strong hunting pedigree. If you ever decide to jump shoot ducks in a beaver pond, a Springer will bring them back, dead or alive. Personally, I wouldn't trust a man who could not love a Sringer Spaniel. They are great family dogs and good hunters. Boykins and American Water Spaniels are good choices, too, though tougher to locate.

If you like a bigger dog, PM me and I'll hook you up with my pup's breeder. She's in northern NY and probably closer to you than to me.

I'd look for a good springer or brittany spaniel. I'd look for one from lines that aren't too "energetic" (hunting rather than competition field trial) or at least one that can turn it off at home. Either breed should be great around the house.

Either of those Spaniels is a great choice as well as an English Setter. As you know I'm a bit partial to my Gordons even though they are black. Don't overlook a good hunting stock Red Setter. Not the ones the bench crowd messed up. Tough to find but a fine dog.

bucktales, could you give us some more pics of those beautiful dogs of yours?

Having owned and hunted with labs and other dark colored dogs I agree that light colors are good for hunting. However such a dog will leave the visible hair all over. Perhaps it should be cleaned up anyway.

Here is a guy you want to talk to. I have never met a nicer person. Tom Gingher

He owns and runs the Knob Mtn. Kennel

I just brought home my English Cocker Spaniel two weeks ago. Slightly smaller than a Springer, about 35 lbs. max. Otherwise very similar. Colors range from blue roan to black, like mine. "Shadow" will be a pheasant and grouse dog. We named him "Shadow" because he is black and can't be seen at night and he is always attached to your foot. Very pleasant dog. I have 3 boys, 10, 7 and 5 and they love him. My wife has really taken to him after being hesitant about having a dog at all. He will be perfect for a house/pet/hunting dog.

http://www.ecsca.org/fieldbredecs.html

English cockers are hunting dogs. Not the lop-eared, bug-eyed, pee monster, show dogs that American cockers have become. My dogs grandfather was Canadian National Field Champion. He has many other FC and FTW in his bloodlines.

Fast Ed

I'd look into a french brittany.

I'll second a English Cocker, there a great little hunting dog and a great companion. I judge spaniel hunt test and am realy impressed with the little fellows. I've had an AWS for the last 14yrs and finally retired her this year, a dark dog is hard to see in heavy cover but a orange bandana around their neck will cure that.

The English Cocker was my next choice in dogs, but took on a GWP for a friend that has health problems and couldn't keep his dog any longer.

erich

Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. I've had two, and they are very
versatile gun dogs for the foot hunter. There is a lot of WPG
activity in your area (and NY, Conn, Mass, RI, etc), not to
mention the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon Club of America for help
finding a good hunting-dog breeder.

Mine have been extraordinary.

Harold: Get a Gordon Setter and don't look back. I'm on my second one and it's mainly used for grouse and woodcock. It seems
to automatically know how far or near to hunt pending on the cover, conditions and number of hunters. It has also has hunted
praire chickens, sharptail, pheasant, hungarians, quail and even
pointed a few ducks. A pleasure in and out of the field. Rugged
with few trips to the vet and a tough hide. Takes alot of abuse
from the grandkids without batting an eye. Easily managible with
a minimum of training compared to some bird dogs. Leaves a few
"fuzzbunnies" in the hair department, but, their on the floor
rather than clothes. Great memories in remembering what to do
in a certain cover,tho you may not have hunted it since the
previous year. Good luck in your decision.
P.S.- Better give it a "buzz" haircut for hunting season.

All of the suggestions above.

Add in Weimaraners, and Boykin Spaniels, pick the one that "speaks to ya", and you'll have a helluva dog.

IMHO, there ain't a bad one suggested yet.

So....are you running for some political office?

Actually, I agree with you. Any dog--even a poor one--is better than no dog at all.

Where I hunt grouse the bear season is open during the grouse season. I have used a dog and its not worth the bother. Better to just woods roam and hunt everything. Some years there are no grouse anyway or so it seems.

On the other hand if you want a dog then get a dog. If I wanted a dog I would get one with some color that I could see and not a Gordon. A dog would be good as an alarm.

Tom Gingher of Bloomsberg, PA is the best person I know who trains and breeds hunting dogs.

Two thoughts on the above: I always heard that hunting with a
poor dog (untrained) was worse than hunting with no dog at all
(and I've had that experience more than once). Now, for just
bummin' around in the woods, any dog should do.
Also, Gordon's are not that hard to see(locate) when wearing a
'beeper collar' or if their in lighter grasses/weeds or snow.
I still prefer them to my last 'white' dog. If your going to
use a bell only in heavy/early cover your argument has validity
however,I've had trouble finding 'white' dogs to.
Good luck in the dog search----

Good points too, I'll second that.

We had a couple of black labs and I have hunted in Vermont for 55 years. Not every day mind you but I have owned the 'camp' there since 1964 thus I have some experience with the topic.

The labs were ok for grouse hunting but as you say untrained. However I don't recall them messing up a grouse shot and more to the opposite they would flush birds that I may never have seen but just walked by. Of course they would retrieve the birds too.

The idea of a beeper in the grouse woods really is not for me. Better to stay at the camp and do something else than listen to a beeper. A red or orange something on the dogs neck is a good idea anyway. I like that.

The bear season in VT used to open April 1'st and now opens on Sept. 1'st. It ends when they den up in late November. The upland season (grouse, squirrels etc.) opens Sept. 28 th and closes at the end of the year. By the time the deer season is over in November I am hunting deer in Connecticut and the snow in Vermont is already a problem.

Now if some guy did not want to hunt big game and just hunted birds and not only that but belonged to a club that had pheasant hunting then of course a dog would be outstanding for that hunting. Otherwise I would rather not have a dog what with wanting to get away on the boat and the kind of rifle hunting that I prefer.
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I walked out of the camp and down the dirt road to go grouse and bear hunting. My 'combination gun' for such hunting was a Ithaca Deerslayer loaded with slugs in the mag and bird shot in the chamber. A dog came walking towards me. My dog was back home with my parents.

I called to the dog, a lean black lab male, and it came over and I petted it on it head. It seemed to be lost. I told the dog to follow me and it did. We went up the hill on a logging road and in a clearing a black bear ran across the clearing. I shucked the shot out of the chamber and closed it on a slug and got to see the bear run out of sight. Too far, too fast.

While this was going on the dog ran off when it saw the bear.


Best grouse/bear gun since 1968.

My wife always said, she didn`t know which were dumber, my hounds or my chickens, but that Labs were smarter than most of there owners.

She said that a dog is smarter than a human? Thats ridiculous.

The main problem with the dog is that it takes so much care. You have to deal with the huge thing in the vehicle, walk it, feed it etc. not to mention that it might run off or worse chase a deer.

Now if you luv your dog all thats nothing.

One more thing on the practical side is that there are really not many grouse at all in Vermont. Hardly ever. This year looks good though I admit that. If there can be a lot of shooting then a decent hunting dog is fabulous. Take the forest where all you see is two birds all day and a chipmunk and to me I left the dog home. To each his own.

There certainly aren't any in New York. In fact, I believe they are listed as extinct in this state. So don't bother coming around here looking for any.

They go in cycles from absolutely none to almost none. This year however they must be at the top of their cycle near the camp. I have been jumping them all year, seen them walking on the road etc.

Its a good time to scout for deer, get in shape, and hunt bear also. The grouse is just a treat if you get one, two is better and enough for a meal for both of us.

Haven't seen one in Ct in 25 yrs too.
Savage, I know what you mean by the cycles. I hunted VT. for 27 yrs up till 2 yrs ago.

Either your assessment of Labs is too low or, more likely, your assessment of people is too high.

Savage, If you don't mind me asking, wherebouts is your camp (general area)? As I said, I Spent a bunch of time up there, 20 of which I hunted GMNF in the Stratton/Sunderland area. Hunted the kingdom for a few years before that. Winter bunny hunting was good back then.

A german shorthair has always worked well for grouse for me in the woods of the N.W.

I am near Wardsboro. When I hunt alone there I just walk out of the camp. My buddy wants to hunt near farms so when he is at the camp we drive through Manchester and hunt near the farms off of Rt30.

I have hunted all over the state from border to border with the exception of little time spent in the CT river valley area.



The fine print on the sign reads "Parallel parkers will be shot"

Big game reporting station.

The first lab that we got was free. My late dad and I were hunting up in Stratton in a fairly level area on some crusty ice in the winter. The snowshoe rabbits were in season. As you know they turn white for some reason. The lab was with us and I shot a rabbit with my old Remington hammer SXS. The dog picked up the rabbit and ran off with it. It was really time to go home and we had to be in work the next day. After calling and calling that dumb dog we got in the car and drove off and there was the dog running down the road ahead of us. She had lost the rabbit.

Savage, those pics made my day. That was my old stomping grounds. Does Kip still own the store? Checked in my Blackie from '93 on that old grain scale next to Kip's. I used to spend entire rifle and BP seasons up there. Mostly hunted the Stratton/Arlington road near the top on the right side as well as the "real" kelly stand ,not where the plaque in the parking lot is. Black Brook,Lye brook, the IP road, Little Stratton, five beaver ponds in, man, I can go on.
Probably passed by you more than once.
Thanks for posting.

I am not sure who owns the country store. I do know that the gunshop is gone from it. Word has it that constant break in's made that necessary. I buy my Lic. there and asked again about the gunshop owner but I got a guarded answer. I asked if he still had his FFL and the clerk 'said' she did not know.

What years did you hunt there? Back in the 50's, 60's and early 70's it was pretty good there. Of course some guys never got anything. There used to be a game trail that went right past the camp but its been gone now for years. The deer would walk that path on top of the snow all winter long.

To add that the 'Arlington Turnpike' that you hunted off of is some pretty big woods for that country. That road is about 14 miles or so long and the only one around there. They don't plow it in the winter from Stratton towards the west as you know.

I think I have a good pic somewhere of your woods and I will look for it later.

Here is a picture of an area we hunt north of Manchester. I won't forget the pic. of your Arlington Tpke. area but so far its not showing up.

Early 80's till 04 I hunted there. Right about big woods, One BP season I tracked a large buck at daybreak on the Arlington road. He headed NorthWest all day. I broke it off at 2:30pm and didn't get back to my rig till well after dark 3 miles away. I kept thinking I was going to end up at Orvis in Manchester if I kept walking.Good thing I didn't catch up to him, I'd probably still be draggin.Covered a lot of ground and Didn't cut another track all day either.

When my sister graduated from college she and her room mate got into the Peace Corp. I invited my sister up to the camp to get some hiking in as she already had the plane tickets for Peru. My parents and I did not want her to go at all.

She brought her friend along who also was going to Peru. Back then I was really in shape. I know that some mountain men are better at it that I ever was but I could run for miles at a very high rate.

I took them right over to the trail that climbs Stratton Mountain and up we went to the top. You can be sure that the pace was fast but on the way down I went really fast. By then their legs were mush. My sister never went to Peru or for that matter into the P.C.

If my bearings are correct, I shot my 93 bear off the backside of that first ridge in the foreground, one heck of a drag.Thanks again for the pix, memories of some good times.

Please don't forget the Gordon's English cousin! I live in Michigan Upper Penninsula-country that looks a lot like your New England landscapes and with similar weather. The "classic" English Setters share a lot of personality traits with the Gordon. I have a pair that serve as house dogs and hunting companions. I never cease to be amazed as the Jekyl/Hyde personality transformations these critters experience around hunting. The same dogs who languish unobtrussively around the house all year long turn into "Popeye on spinach" when birds are on the menu. Still, they're eager to please and hunt cover well.

Yes, I know that type very well. We have friends in Europe that breed "traditional, old school" English and Gordons.

GROUSE DOG

GROUSE DRILLING

You have it dialed in perfectly, my friend. I love your drilling, and am realy interested in your dogs.

Same here, re dogs. Also, enquiring (sick) minds want to know
about both boxlock and drilling: brand, age, gauge & caliber,
and all available provenance. How sweet it is...!!!!

Box lock is a better grade pre-war Sauer 12ga with a second set of cape gun barrels in 12 & 8X57jr with a Weaver K3 60-B P&CH in claw mounts. I used it in Africa for warthog and duiker, steenbuck, etc. I like having one barrel of heavy buck and one rifle round for close cover PG or here for deer and chuckar or grouse hanging out in the same haunts with bird shot, instead of buck.

The drilling is a full sidelock Prussian Sauer made Charles Daly Superior Grade 16 (2 3/4") over 30-30 with the coveted side cock-uncock lever for the rifle. It has a top tang safety, not the Greener side safety, and when one cocks the rifle the rear trigger fires the rifle barrel, then the left shotgun barrel if pulled again. To uncock the rifle all you have to do is hold the lever down, pull the rear trigger, and lift the lever slowly. This my favorite drilling configuration, and I have the 12ga version of the same drilling. They both have the folding tang peep sight and a flip rib mounted rear sight.

Both guns have a lot of drop, which is shoot well. The drilling stock is uncut with the original butt plate.

Ms. Scarlet doesn't care what I carry, as long as we get into birds and I drop a few for her.

slobberslobberdrool - and I don't mean Ms. Scarlet, neither,
as she clearly, visibly has too much class to do such a thing...

I guess I will second this completely. I have a 6 month old english setter who is the most amazing dog I have ever owned. I grew up with labs, and while they are amazing family dogs, they always seem to be a pain in the butt until they get to be a couple years old and calm down a little bit. I always loved the looks of english setters, and a great breeder/trainer lives not to far from me, so when I found he had puppies ready I loaded up the clan, 5 boys(2-17) and my wife and headed to his kennel.

He had a small female setter, 8 weeks old there, well, it was love at first sight and she came home with us. One thing that had always concerned me with setters was how hyper they were. I have done some training with her, real easy stuff, she's only 7 months old or so, and when you get her out hunting she is a complete machine, but as soon as she comes in the house its like someone swaps her with a 10 year old black lab. She lays around and snuggles up to anyone who sits down. She plays with all of the kids. My wife even made me let her sleep on the bed with us. I go on, but I couldn't possibly recommend any dog more than I do her.

That is some nice country there. I back packed a bit of the Greens during the 90s.

Sounds just like my Cookie, a Llewellin. They are English setters for the most part and wonderful hunters and family dogs. Her mother, Ms. Scarlet, sleeps in her bed on the floor in the bedroom until 6:00 a.m., then hopps into bed for another hour every morning.

Setters seem to have a great affinity for man. They live to please us; it is their reason for being...