I was following the request for this forum so I thought I would post. All the drillings I have seen for sale were $1000+ Are there less expensive drillings or would those be junk?

1000 bucks IS an inexpensive drilling. Extremely useful guns.

Most $1,000.00 drillings are worn out junk with obsolete rifle chamberings.

There are a few in 16ga with 65mm chambers and 9,3X72R rifle barrels in that range that are still shooters, however. When buying a drilling or cape gun you need to know what you're doing, or you will end up with an expensive wall-hanger.

A decent drilling will start in about the $2,000.00 range these days. DON'T use the auction sites as a guide to prices! Few offering drillings there know what they have and it's realistic condition. Their prices are about double the guns' real values.

Care to give some pointers to folks new to the game? Short of buying a NIB gun how can we tell if a drilling is going to be of serviceable use and not just a wall hanger?

Think of it this way: a drilling nets you a double barrel shotgun and a single shot rifle in one go (or a double rifle and single shot shotgun). Price out some period examples and compare it to the cost of the drilling. The drilling is often cheaper. Buying new is even easier to make the comparison... most modern drilling makers also make doubles and single shot rifles. That should net some workable figures when it comes time to pry the wife's hands off the purse strings.

luv2safari,

I had a feeling I wasn't in the ball park in terms of money. I will have to rethink my price range.

Alectoris,

I like the way you think. Maybe your logic will work on the wife. She is now giving the ok for rifles with pretty wood, now I need to try another angle

Cabelas sometimes has nice drillings in the $1400 range. It pays to look there. I got a nice Sauer 16/16/9.3x72 for that price last year. Very good shooter. I'd say stay away from 12 ga. The ones I have handled (including my Colt /Sauer) handle like clubs.
Guns international has a lot of them and right now there are some nice ones in the $2500 range.

Good find on the Sauer for $1400.

Usually, the cheaper ones are cheap for 2 reasons.

1. It's Junk.
2. Someone needs quick Cash.

Go to www.frankonia.de and do some translating and see what you can get shipped over. I know it's a lengthy process but you may save some $$$.

Sometimes the only problem with older drillings is a little looseness. This can be fixed reasonably cheaply, coinsidering the overall cost of a drilling.

Good bargains can also be found in outside-hammer drillings. My first drilling was a Daly/Sauer 12x12/.30-30. Sauer made a bunch of these for the American market, in American chamberings. They're back-action sidelocks and are very good. Mine has a typical fold-down aperture tang sight. I shot it for the first time with 170-grain Federal factory loads and they printed 2" high at 100 yards with the tang sight.

I've taken mule deer and a bunch of gamebirds from sharptails to pheasants with it.

drducati,
I will keep a look out on Cabela's.

7x64,

I looked at the link to the website you provided. I hate to sound stupid, but what language is it in?

More like uninformed,definitely NOT stupid. Big difference.

John,

Are there any tips to looking at a used drilling to make sure I don't get a "problem child"?

Yes uninformed

German. Look at the web address - .de is a domain registration reserved for german registration/use.

If you download the browser Chrome (from HERE), it will offer to translate webpages to English on the fly for you.

The translation is done by computer of course, so sometimes the English is "interesting" but it will be useful.

I have tried to have Chrome translate kawi's posts into English, but they are gibberish in ANY language.

John

This one seems to be decently priced. I think it's a lot like yours and would be a very useful gun.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=331379257

I think the price came down recently, too.

Check out this link for the for sale guns. I know they export but it is a lengthy process. Fortunately, I was able to ship mine in my furniture/household goods and get the ATF stuff knocked out w/o a hitch.

http://www.frankonia.de/waffen/gebrauchtwaffen/topcategory.html

These links are frustrating, in that there does not seem to be any English translation, unless I am overlooking something?

barm,

The biggies are chambering, bore condition, soldering between the barrels, and looseness of the barrels on the action. Of the three, looseness is the one that can be easily and relatively cheaply fixed. I had one of my drillings tightenered by Briley of Houston, and they did a good job for a very reasonable price.

Barrels with the soldering going loose can be determined by taking the barrels off the action, hanging the barrels by the "lump" on your finger, then ringing the barrels with a coin. Barrels with tight soldering will ring clearly like a bell, but if the solder's separating the sound will be dull.
This can be fixed too, but will typical cost more than tightening the barrels on the action.

The chambering can be a real problem or not. Many are easily reloadable, but one oddity is that 8x57 drilling bores were often .318" long after al most all bolt-action 8x57's has .323" bores. The .318" bullets aren't commonly available, though you can swage lead-cored .323's down. Then there are a bunch of older rimmer rounds that are tough to find brass and dies for, and they tend to be expensive when you can find 'em.

A lot of people get worked up over whether the shotgun barrels are chambered for 2-3/4" shells, but the typical "short" chamber is actually usually a little longer than the nominal 2-1/2" or 2-9/16", and in reality 2-3/4" shells can be fired safely. If you're nervous about it, short shells are pretty available these days, or the chambers can be lengthened slightly.

Check here. I know of a person who bought one from them and he was satisfied. I have personally never bought anything from Simpson but have talked to them a couple times. Only reason I didn't buy was the firearms weren't quite what I was looking for. They seem to be a good outfit.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/advanced_...c19e85a65f44b68b299e372e&x=6&y=9

And, to add what Mule said, if you reload, there is virtually no rifle chambering out there for which brass can't be formed. Some will be more expensive and labor intensive than others but it's a pretty safe bet it can be done. Just check with someone before you jump. All some require is necking a parent case up or down. The same can be said for bore sizes if you are willing to shoot cast bullets. There are custom mold makers who will make a mold to the dimensions, weight and length for twist for a barrel for about the same retail price as an RCBS mold.

Thank you all for the information and links provided. This is all new to me, I primarily use bolt action rifles, so I do have much to learn.

sharps4590,

Good post.

I'll add that sometimes things aren't as they seem, especially in older drillings and combo guns. My wife bought a really nice, older 16/9.3x72R combo gun a few years ago, and it even came with a box of RWS ammo, half of which had already been fired in the gun.

I was trying to decide what to shoot in it, thinking about possibly paper-patching some .35 bullets, so slugged the rfle bore. Turned out it WAS a .35! Ad by that I mean the bore was .350 and the grooves .358, which are both a little different than the 9mm bores of some German rifle cartridges.

That really solved the problem: Eileen shoots 180-grain Speer Hot-Cores designed for the .35 Remington at about 1900 fps, which work perfectly, both in the rifle and on deer. She neck-sizes the cases with .357 Magnum dies.

Another idea is to use a slug gun for now until you find a drilling or combo. gun you like.

I used an Ithaca Deerslayer with good effect on grouse and it will shoot slugs with accuracy as well.

When I was a young Airman, my good buddy had 1 shotgun...An Ithaca Deerslayer. It was an awesome bird gun.

That's a nice stock on the Deerslayer you've got there.

That Works!

Mule, point well stated and should be well taken. An acquaintance of mine is quite adept at coming up with ways to make firearms work. He has often mentioned what you discovered about your 9.3. That is that often .357 size stuff will work just fine for it and you may have most of what you need already on your bench.

I have a rule that I adopted from a fellow GGCA member. I don't shoot any older drilling or try any ammo in it until I have made a chamber cast and slugged the bore. As an example: I bought my Thieme & Schlegelmilch with the understanding that it was probably a 9.3 X 74R and it was nearly so marked. The seller and I corresponded at length and the plain truth is he didn't know a lot about German firearms or how to determine the rifle chambering of any. That is not an indictment. I would buy from the gentleman again. Old European firearms firing obsolete and obscure cartridges is not something everyone has an interest in. We came to an agreement and everyone came away happy. Anyway...I digress. The proof house mark for length was "74 1/2". Now what the blue blazes does the "1/2" mean? I didn't know at the time but believed I knew of enough resources to find out. A chamber cast revealed that the cartridge was definitely NOT the conventional 9.3 X 74R. Case neck and mouth were the same and length was for all intents and purposes identical. But the rim, case head and case body about half way up the case from the head are quite a bit smaller than the 9.3 X 74R. None of my sources listed any measurements even close. By good fortune a fellow GGCA memeber in Germany took my posted dimensions and compared them to his cartridge collection. Turns out I have a propietery cartridge from Thieme & Schlegelmilch called the 9.3 X 75R Nimrod. The action of the drilling is also a Nimrod. By making a few comparisons of my own and asking for advice from folks who really know about such thing a box of brass that could be reformed was fairly simple to come up with and the operation to reform wasn't all that difficult either. It wasn't necessarily inexpensive but the old drilling is back in service and I hope to take a deer with it next season....perhaps even a hog between now and then. And, as a somewhat important aside to me, I have an uncommon and unusual cartridge chambered in a unique drilling. It's unique in that the rifle barrel is shorter than the shotgun barrels by about 10 inches.

Moral...if there is one...make a chamber cast, slug the bore and remove all doubt.

sharps4590

Excellent points all the way around.

I've has the same sort of surprises you described (and in my previous post) several times! Apparently Germans were as fond of wildcatting and proprietary cartridges as Americans are, and perhaps more. I have a pretty decent reference library and have never seen anything on the 9.3x75R Nimrod that I can recall.

Thieme and Schlegelmilch firearms are good stuff!

Mule, I'm not real knowledgeable of Continentil rounds or the history over there, but I am learning. You probably know light yeaers more than me. Here's what I was told about the Nimrod proprietery line of cartridges. Nearly all, if not all, were sort of transitional cartridges during that era when smokeless was introduced but black still ruled the sporting world. I've been told that none of them lasted very long. My impression was around 10 years. I believe the 9.3 X 75R Nimrod dates from about 1905 but my info is sketchy. I know there was also a 9.3 X 82R Nimrod and a few others but I don't know what. It's rather a sleek looking devil. 3 inches long, slight bottleneck..kinda like a 40-90 Sharps Straight. My thought was the same as yours, Americans don't hold the records for wildcats. Geezz...look at all the wildcats based on the Mauser A base case. As bad as the -06 family.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to check out some of my books more closely.

You don't see to many Thieme-Schlegelmilch guns over here, since they're one of the firms that didn't Csurvive WWII (as I have occasionally, perhaps partly due to pronunciation problems). But the few I have run across have all beem very well made, including my 9.2x74R double rifle.

Luv2safari is one of the really experienced guys with German guns on the Campfire. In fact I bought one of my two present drillings from him.

Moral...if there is one...make a chamber cast, slug the bore and remove all doubt

Ain't that the truth! My first drilling purchase was a disaster, through no fault but my own ignorance. I bought what I(and the seller) thought was a pre WW1 JP Sauer 12x12/9.3x74R. It turned out to be an oddball proprietary 9.3 Sauer, after having it checked out by Lee LeBass. Have since educated myself considerably, thanks to guys like luv2safari, and others, as well as organizations like the GGCA.

Jeff

I poicked right up on 2safari's knowledge.....sharp fella, him!

I was completely ignorant of T&S when I started the correspondence on this one. Before I pulled the trigger I knew enough about them to feel confident. There had been little to no interest in the drilling because of the shorter rifle barrel. I learned a lot about that too, before buying. It does look a little hokey but it's grown on me. I have to agree with the concept that the shorter rifle barrel makes for a more lively shotgun. A good price didn't hurt anything either.

Your DR is a T&S, eh? Does it have the Nimrod frame and is it hammer or hammerless?...(you do realize that hammerless is just a passing fad..no way THAT will catch on). Fine chambering too!

jeff, were you able to form something to 9.3 X 72R Sauer?

Vic

jeff, were you able to form something to 9.3 X 72R Sauer

Vic,

It will take a 9.3x74R case. Lee suggested just loading Norma 232's at around 2000 fps. I have not even fired it again, since I now have a Simson in 9.3x74R. Would like to put it up for sale eventually, and accept the fact that I'll be taking a bath on it! Live and learn!

Jeff

Jeff,

I believe I have handled that 9,3 Sauer of yours. Is it a sidelock/sidecock like the Daly I have presently. If so, it's a nice gun in a b@stard rifle round. I saw Lee shoot it with 9,3X74r-cased ammo if it's the same gun.

I believe I have handled that 9,3 Sauer of yours. Is it a sidelock/sidecock like the Daly I have presently. If so, it's a nice gun in a bstard rifle round. I saw Lee shoot it with 9,3X74r-cased ammo if it's the same gun.

Bruce,

Different rifle Bruce. Mine is a snap action. Haven't talked with Lee since he took over the Mauser USA operation. Hope he's doing well. Sure was helpful figuring out what the heck this drilling really was. I do appreciate you putting me in touch with him!

Jeff

I saw that one, too. I didn't handle it much, however.

sharps,

No, my double isn't on the Nimrod frame. It's on a relatively small boxlock action with a stout Kersten fastener through what are essentially "ears" on either side of the barrels. It isn't nearly as fancy as some German guns, either, though not exactly plain, either. Apparently T-S built relatively few rifles, but did make some minor changes in the geometry of the standard boxlock trigger pulls to make them better. However, while both triggers of this rifle are single-set (naturally) the unset pulls are still pretty stout, especially the front trigger's. The rear trigger's unset pull isn't too bad, at 5-1/2 pounds.

I am indeed aware that hammerless guns are a fad! That's why my other drilling is a hammer Sauer 12x12/.30-30, with a side opening lever. The original Charles Daly firm imported a bunch of Sauer drillings in typical rimmed American rifle chamberings, including .25-35 (would love to find one of those) and as I recall .32-20 and .25-20. What looks like a typical top-lever opener is actually the switch for the rifle barrel. It was never equipped with a scope, but does have the folding tang aperture sight found on many drillings. Most of the Daly-Sauer drillings I've seen have been hammerless, so I'm kinda happy to have this one!

JB,

They also brought in a lot in 38-55, a very useful round, still.

Mule, your DR must be an OU? I have handled one combination gun OU and as my son who was with me said, "Dad, this thing is like a Swiss watch AND a bank vault". I do believe it was the first time he'd handled a German sporting firearm. One one auction site or another there is a drilling in 25-20 for sale but I have not seen one in 32-20. One occasionally sees one in 25-35..that would be a good one to play with.

L2S...I still want something in 38-55 and it doesn't have to be a drilling or combination gun!!! What a neat old cartridge!

Whether or not your like Cabela's prices on used weapons they do offer a nice service if you see a drilling or combination from one of their stores in another state; they will ship it to a Cabela's closer to you for a $25.00 fee. You can look it over without having to find an FFL to accept shipment, additional shipping costs, getting a refund if the seller's description falls short of reality.