The day after the incident both my wife and daughter ask why I wasn’t carrying my 44 Mtn Gun ? I took them to our range and set half a dozen 2x4 scraps of lumber on the ground 10-15 feet away and then asked each to hit as many as they could, as quickly as possible and handed them my light weight S&W 44 . Then we did it with the 9mm.
It’s a good exercise , especially if you can generate some adrenaline first
I carry a 12 guage 870 with truball deep penetrators. A couple of friends suggested having the first shot being a shot shell to hit them in the face with when they are charging. The idea is to blind them first. So my first shot is now a 2 shot nitro mag.
I carry a 12 guage 870 with truball deep penetrators. A couple of friends suggested having the first shot being a shot shell to hit them in the face with when they are charging. The idea is to blind them first. So my first shot is now a 2 shot nitro mag.
Any thoughts?
To me, I would only shoot a bear if it was a life or death situation. And if I am shooting in that circumstance, I want every chance to kill the damned thing before it kills me. I wouldn't waste my first shot on a non-lethal option. Ron Spomer also had a pretty good video on the penetration abilities of various cartridges, including shotgun slugs. They don't necessarily penetrate well enough in the head-on charge scenario to get through to a vital area.
Great video! Years ago, Phil wrote an article on handguns and bears. I thought at the time it made more sense than anything else I had ever seen and it still does.
Here's the some simple math. Let's say a bear is at 25 yards (75feet) and charges you at 30mph (45feet per second). 75 feet/45feet per second = 1.67 seconds before you're bear food. Let's say you're a competition grand master shooter with weak 9mm target loads. At that skill level you'll be able to draw in 0.9 seconds, and have .25 second splits after that. So 1.67sec - 0.9 = 0.77 secs. 0.77/0.25 splits = 3 shots.
So if you are the best of the best of the best, you'll get three shots off in a 25 yard, full speed charge. And you'd have to be Jerry Miculek to stand a chance to have all three of those shots be in a vital zone on a moving target. Maybe as the thing is gnawing on you, you'll get another shot or two at point blank range. That's 5 shots. I don't get this 17 round magazine preference for this type of defense. I know I'm only going to get 1-2 hits on the bear, I figure shoot it with the most powerful thing I can, and that's not 9mm. First shot speed does not change with caliber.
I carry a 12 guage 870 with truball deep penetrators. A couple of friends suggested having the first shot being a shot shell to hit them in the face with when they are charging. The idea is to blind them first. So my first shot is now a 2 shot nitro mag.
Any thoughts?
To me, I would only shoot a bear if it was a life or death situation. And if I am shooting in that circumstance, I want every chance to kill the damned thing before it kills me. I wouldn't waste my first shot on a non-lethal option. Ron Spomer also had a pretty good video on the penetration abilities of various cartridges, including shotgun slugs. They don't necessarily penetrate well enough in the head-on charge scenario to get through to a vital area.
Curious what slugs Ron was using. Have not seen that video yet. Not saying that you are not right.
Here's the some simple math. Let's say a bear is at 25 yards (75feet) and charges you at 30mph (45feet per second). 75 feet/45feet per second = 1.67 seconds before you're bear food. Let's say you're a competition grand master shooter with weak 9mm target loads. At that skill level you'll be able to draw in 0.9 seconds, and have .25 second splits after that. So 1.67sec - 0.9 = 0.77 secs. 0.77/0.25 splits = 3 shots.
So if you are the best of the best of the best, you'll get three shots off in a 25 yard, full speed charge. And you'd have to be Jerry Miculek to stand a chance to have all three of those shots be in a vital zone on a moving target. Maybe as the thing is gnawing on you, you'll get another shot or two at point blank range. That's 5 shots. I don't get this 17 round magazine preference for this type of defense. I know I'm only going to get 1-2 hits on the bear, I figure shoot it with the most powerful thing I can, and that's not 9mm. First shot speed does not change with caliber.
Can't disagree with that, but I don't think Phil's 9mm held 17 rounds. I don't carry any 17 round 9mm ever. Round count isn't why I carry 9mm. I don't think of it as a bear round either, but if it was all I had, all I could carry with the rest of my load, or all I could shoot well, I'd load it with Buffalo Bore for the outback and carry on.
To touch on the above videos. The one video compares the 2 3/4” truball deep penetrators and 3” mag slugs. They all penetrate 7 to 8 boards. So the 2 3/4” truball compares with the 3” mags that have regular soft lead.
The other video is one of three. The vloger had issues with a couple of bear encounters with a regular slug from a 2 3/4” chamber. He just uses jell with no barrier. Brenneke was 29” Truball was 32.5” Regular Super x was 14.5”
Here's the some simple math. Let's say a bear is at 25 yards (75feet) and charges you at 30mph (45feet per second). 75 feet/45feet per second = 1.67 seconds before you're bear food. Let's say you're a competition grand master shooter with weak 9mm target loads. At that skill level you'll be able to draw in 0.9 seconds, and have .25 second splits after that. So 1.67sec - 0.9 = 0.77 secs. 0.77/0.25 splits = 3 shots.
So if you are the best of the best of the best, you'll get three shots off in a 25 yard, full speed charge. And you'd have to be Jerry Miculek to stand a chance to have all three of those shots be in a vital zone on a moving target. Maybe as the thing is gnawing on you, you'll get another shot or two at point blank range. That's 5 shots. I don't get this 17 round magazine preference for this type of defense. I know I'm only going to get 1-2 hits on the bear, I figure shoot it with the most powerful thing I can, and that's not 9mm. First shot speed does not change with caliber.
Can't disagree with that, but I don't think Phil's 9mm held 17 rounds. I don't carry any 17 round 9mm ever. Round count isn't why I carry 9mm. I don't think of it as a bear round either, but if it was all I had, all I could carry with the rest of my load, or all I could shoot well, I'd load it with Buffalo Bore for the outback and carry on.
When I moved to AK in 2006, I was told a 44 mag was the minimum for carry. I don't typically trust the minimum, so I went with a 460 S&W Mag. After carrying it 2 or 3 times I realized I didn't want to hike in fishing with what felt like the anchor for the USS Enterprise. I went to a S&W 329 PD 44 Mag and I got a Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull customized by Wild West Guns. The 429 was no fun at all even with light loads, but was a pleasure to carry. After customization, the Ruger was easy to carry and a pleasure to shoot with 45Colt or 454. My last year, I had a Glock 20 that I carried exclusively. What Phil said above is what made me switch.
I had a friend up there that has been on every kind of hunt you can imagine and he had me do the same thing Phil said, but with my rifle. I had to set up paper plates at 50, 25, 15, 10, 5 yards and see if I could put a round in each one in under 7 seconds. Doesn't sound that hard, but its pretty difficult with a big bolt action. I got to thinking about it and I set up some stuff at 10-20 yards and did it with my pistols. That 429 PD was useless after the 1st shot. I couldn't get it back on target very well. The Super Redhawk was more manageable with the porting. I was much better with the Glock. I wasn't going to get 17 rounds in a charging bear, but I was better with it than the heavy caliber revolvers. And I wanted to extra mag capacity because of the exact situation Phil was in. I might have to defend my wife and son and I wanted as many bullets as possible and felt like I might need them if the adrenaline was pumping. I carried spray when I was going to be around bunches of people and I didn't think shooting would be safe. Like at the confluence of the Russian and Kenai during the sockeye run. Way too many people for lead to fly but some days there were plenty of bears around. I did carry a .357 for possible 2 legged critters with the spray though.
I now live in AR. My woods carry guns include 9mm (Glock and CZ), 10mm (Glock), .327 Fed Mag (Ruger), and 357 Mag (Ruger Speed Six). With hardcast rounds, I'm confident in any of those calibers for the black bears we have around here.
Since I've seen three black bears in the wild naturally I'm knowledgeable (NOT!) Biggest one was maybe 225 lbs small head biggesh looking ears 80 yards away I felt safe with my .260 and 140 grain corelokts backed up by my Ruger .45lc and 255 semiwadcutters. We don't have a season and the bears are protected but every year the population grows better to be safe than chomped.
Bangflop! another skinning job due to .260 and proper shot placement.
Here's the some simple math. Let's say a bear is at 25 yards (75feet) and charges you at 30mph (45feet per second). 75 feet/45feet per second = 1.67 seconds before you're bear food. Let's say you're a competition grand master shooter with weak 9mm target loads. At that skill level you'll be able to draw in 0.9 seconds, and have .25 second splits after that. So 1.67sec - 0.9 = 0.77 secs. 0.77/0.25 splits = 3 shots.
So if you are the best of the best of the best, you'll get three shots off in a 25 yard, full speed charge. And you'd have to be Jerry Miculek to stand a chance to have all three of those shots be in a vital zone on a moving target. Maybe as the thing is gnawing on you, you'll get another shot or two at point blank range. That's 5 shots. I don't get this 17 round magazine preference for this type of defense. I know I'm only going to get 1-2 hits on the bear, I figure shoot it with the most powerful thing I can, and that's not 9mm. First shot speed does not change with caliber.
As the boxes say, everyone has a plan - until they get hit
Thank you Mr shoemaker. Your insight is always intelligent. Apparently something peed in that bears coffee that particular morning. He was very angry. Glad it worked out for you and friends. Living, working and recreating around the weaponized GYA bears is challenging. How’s the book coming?
Mr. Shoemaker I enjoyed the video. Kudos to you for keeping your composure and taking care of business!
For all interested, our very own Mackay Sagebrush (Lost River Ammunition Company) is loading 9mm+P 148 grain flat nose hard cast if you’re looking for some good ammo for your 9mm.
As mentioned, a bear isn't impressed by a miss in the dirt, if it's a full on attack you had better stay in the fight & use something you can hit with. If that's a big gun then you're ahead of the game, most people can't. Good bullets that penetrate can very well save your life. I set around camp last year in New Mexico & listened to Phil & he's very down to earth & still alive after decades of guiding, you can learn a lot if you listen.
