Surgeries last year have left me very recoil sensitive. I need to change my hunting load. I want to develop something mild - at about 2750 fps.
I sold my Hornady reloading manual. If any of you guys have one, would you mind sharing the min. and max. charge for the following combination?
30-06 - 150 Hornady Spire Point - Varget Powder
Thanks in advance,
GB
I started fooling with recoil reduction in the ol' '06 after shoulder surgery. Outstanding results with 150 gr bullets and 4198 and especially Reloader 7.
I know you wanted to use Varget, but in my rifles, when you started to back off the charge, got some pretty smokey cases and some pretty wide velocity swings.
40 gr of RL-7 and the 150 gr Hornady gave me moa groups, velocity around 2700 fps in 22" bbl, with near single digit velocity variations.
If you can find some H4895 load 45 gr w/150 and smile works w/ 180s as well.
Thanks for the reply guys.
Finding powder and/or primers is not an option...especially after the so called "election."
I buy Varget and H4350 anytime I see a pound on the shelf. That's what I have and are my only two options.
Anyone with a Hornady manual lying around?
I have a hunt coming up this weekend.
Thanks flintlocke and dusty. I think I remember seeing some RL-7 in a store about 40 miles from me. Those are the numbers I'm looking for.
GB
Surgeries last year have left me very recoil sensitive. I need to change my hunting load. I want to develop something mild - at about 2750 fps.
I sold my Hornady reloading manual. If any of you guys have one, would you mind sharing the min. and max. charge for the following combination?
30-06 - 150 Hornady Spire Point - Varget Powder
Thanks in advance,
GB
Try 48 grains and tweak if necessary. That shoots very well for me under 150 grain Sierras in Federal cases.
My very old Hornady data shows the following for 150-155gr bullets in the 30/06 with Varget - all with a 23 3/4" barrel:
41.0gr - 2,500 fps
43.6gr - 2,600 fps
46.3gr - 2,700 fps
49.0gr - 2,800 fps
51.6gr - 2,900 fps
I've hunted enough with loads that start around 2,650 fps at the muzzle to know that out to 250 or even 300 yards, I would be happy starting with about 45 grains of Varget and working up from there.
Thanks Southpaw,
And I agree.
GB
GB, In these times of supply chain disruption, we gotta use what we got. But the whole point of using faster burn powders and lighter bullets is recoil reduction. Using your 150 gr bullet and a 7.7# rifle on 'shooters. com' recoil calculator as an example...a 46 gr powder charge, at 2750 fps will yield 16.6 ft lbs of recoil. Drop to 40 gr at 2700fps, you will get 15.05# recoil...doesn't sound like much, but it's a hair over 10% reduction. Develop a load with 130 gr Hornady, with small charges of fast powder and we are talking serious recoil reduction, below .30-30 levels.
In the recoil formula the powder charge weight is significant (called ejecta). Play with the formula, you will quickly see the benefit of reducing the total ejecta weight.
Hodgdon, Nosler, and others have their data online at no charge. At the charge levels you specify, a little substituting shouldn’t cause any trouble.
For the future, be on the lookout for H4895, which is excellent and safe for reduced loads. Unless you’re reaching out there, you can go pretty low and still get good results on game.
Speer shows a starting load of 49.0 gr of Vargay for 2,587 fps.
https://reloading-data.speer-ammo.c...aliber_308_dia/30-06_Springfield_150.pdfHodgdon online data show a starting load of 47.0 for 2,808 fps.
Quite a difference in loads and speeds there.
I use 44 grains of H 4895 for my Garand load. Easy on the shoulder in a bolt gun.
GB, In these times of supply chain disruption, we gotta use what we got. But the whole point of using faster burn powders and lighter bullets is recoil reduction. Using your 150 gr bullet and a 7.7# rifle on 'shooters. com' recoil calculator as an example...a 46 gr powder charge, at 2750 fps will yield 16.6 ft lbs of recoil. Drop to 40 gr at 2700fps, you will get 15.05# recoil...doesn't sound like much, but it's a hair over 10% reduction. Develop a load with 130 gr Hornady, with small charges of fast powder and we are talking serious recoil reduction, below .30-30 levels.
In the recoil formula the powder charge weight is significant (called ejecta). Play with the formula, you will quickly see the benefit of reducing the total ejecta weight.
Thanks for the heads-up on the recoil calculator.
I loaded up 10 rounds at 48 grs. of Varget. Accuracy was excellent. Recoil was still more than I wanted. I ran the shots over the chrony but the sun came out bright and clear and I missed the data.
I'm taking southpaw's advice and dropping back to 44 grs. If accuracy holds and recoil reduction is significant - I'll be happy at 2600 - 2700 fps.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
GB
I use 44 grains of H 4895 for my Garand load. Easy on the shoulder in a bolt gun.
H4895 and RL-7 are on my watch list.
Thanks,
GB
I'm sorry the 48 grain load was still too much. I wish the chrono had reported correctly. John Barsness got just under 2700 with that load if I remember correctly. (I got it out of his loading for a Garand article.) So you may be looking for something closer to 2500 to get the recoil down enough.
44 grains under a 150 gives just under 2700 from my 300 Savage. I believe it will give less than that in the larger 30-06 case.
44 grains under a 150 gives just under 2700 from my 300 Savage. I believe it will give less than that in the larger 30-06 case.
I think you are correct in your thinking.
I've loaded the following:
5-Rounds @ 44.0
5-Rounds @ 45.0
5-Rounds @ 46.0
Going to the range this tuesday with the chronograph. Plan is to get there before noon. I seem to get better results in the morning or in the afternoon when the sun is not directly overhead.
If I get some data, I'll post it. I'd be happy with easy recoil and anywhere between 2600 and 2700 fps. My rifle has already proven it likes the bullet/powder combo.
GB
I'm sorry the 48 grain load was still too much. I wish the chrono had reported correctly. John Barsness got just under 2700 with that load if I remember correctly. (I got it out of his loading for a Garand article.) So you may be looking for something closer to 2500 to get the recoil down enough.
44 grains under a 150 gives just under 2700 from my 300 Savage. I believe it will give less than that in the larger 30-06 case.
He got about the same velocity I do with that load in a Garand. I also shoot the same load in an 03A3. Recoil is more noticeable in the bolt rifle.
If you can get in the 2600 to 2700 fps area and stand the recoil, you'll be good to go, nobody complains about how a .300 Savage or .308 Winchester kills deer.
Hoping you find a load that don't hurt and lets you get back out there.
Surgeries last year have left me very recoil sensitive. I need to change my hunting load. I want to develop something mild - at about 2750 fps.
I sold my Hornady reloading manual. If any of you guys have one, would you mind sharing the min. and max. charge for the following combination?
30-06 - 150 Hornady Spire Point - Varget Powder
Thanks in advance,
GB
Min. 44.7 grains=2500 fps
Max. 53.6 grains=2900 fps
Hornady case and WLR primer and from a Winchester M 70 with a 23-3/4" barrel.
Here's what I got on 11-24 guys.
Federal Cases - WLR Primers - Varget - Hornady 150 SP - 24" Barrel - 67 Degrees.
5-Shots each charge. Just for the data.
44.0 grs. - AU 2437 fps
45.0 grs. - AU 2466 fps
46.0 grs. - AU 2518 fps
47.0 grs. - Skipped the charge
R-P Cases
48.0 grs. - AU 2621
I am disappointed with the Hornady/Varget combo - surprised really!
I would have been happy with the recoil of the 46.0 gr. load IF I were hitting 2600 fps. BUT taking 48 grs. of powder to hit 2600 fps---that was a shock!
Thanks for all the help guys.
I have a line on some H4895 and a friend is bringing me over some 150 gr. Nosler BT. I have high hopes that I will find what I am looking for with that combination.
GB
Varget is a good choice but you might find H4895 a little better with 150 grain bullets.
This is what QL shows for the 150gr Hornaday and Varget:
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 150, Hornady SP 3031
Useable Case Capaci: 64.410 grain H2O = 4.182 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon VARGET *T
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.971% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-09.7 81 46.50 2540 2150 35497 7846 94.4 1.361
-08.7 82 47.00 2565 2192 36465 7937 94.8 1.346
-07.8 83 47.50 2590 2234 37457 8027 95.2 1.331
-06.8 84 48.00 2615 2277 38475 8115 95.6 1.314
-05.8 84 48.50 2639 2320 39520 8202 95.9 1.297
-04.9 85 49.00 2664 2363 40591 8287 96.3 1.281
-03.9 86 49.50 2688 2407 41689 8370 96.6 1.265
-02.9 87 50.00 2713 2451 42816 8451 96.9 1.250
-01.9 88 50.50 2737 2495 43972 8530 97.2 1.234
-01.0 89 51.00 2761 2540 45158 8607 97.5 1.219
+00.0 90 51.50 2786 2585 46375 8683 97.8 1.205
+01.0 91 52.00 2810 2630 47623 8756 98.0 1.190
+01.9 91 52.50 2834 2676 48903 8827 98.3 1.176
+02.9 92 53.00 2858 2721 50217 8896 98.5 1.162
+03.9 93 53.50 2882 2767 51565 8962 98.7 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
+04.9 94 54.00 2906 2814 52949 9026 98.9 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 90 51.50 2826 2659 48668 8700 98.8 1.179
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 90 51.50 2743 2505 44097 8631 96.4 1.232
Wow AS.
Thanks for your input. Those numbers almost mirror my results. This is a confirmation. I thought my chronograph was giving me bad data.
Kudos to you my friend.
GB
Wow AS.
Thanks for your input. Those numbers almost mirror my results. This is a confirmation. I thought my chronograph was giving me bad data.
Kudos to you my friend.
GB
Happy to help old friend.
Good luck in the field.
Another option, maybe again for the future when stuff reappears, is to drop down more in bullet weight to 125 or 130gr. I picked up a couple of boxes of 130gr TTSXs to try in a 6 1/4lb .308 with no recoil pad. They sorta turn the .308 into a .270 of sorts when pushed hard, but should work okay ru a bit slower too.
Another option, maybe again for the future when stuff reappears, is to drop down more in bullet weight to 125 or 130gr. I picked up a couple of boxes of 130gr TTSXs to try in a 6 1/4lb .308 with no recoil pad. They sorta turn the .308 into a .270 of sorts when pushed hard, but should work okay ru a bit slower too.
The 125 gr. Sierra is fantastic!
Keeping notes guys. Thanks!
I normally load 4198 and RL 7 for what I call kid loads, because that is who I normally load them for..
I have NO use for reduced loads using H 4895, unlike most others... If you have to use 4895, pick up some IMR instead...
Surprised there was no one suggesting good old 3031....with a 150, ( I recommend Nosler Ballistic Tip because they open at low velocity)
try anything from 35 grains to say 44 grains...
as far as velocity needs, consider this....
An antelope is 14 inches from back bone to breast bone....so smaller than a deer...
Cut that in half is 7 inches....consider that your window of opportunity...
you can check this on a ballistic chart if ya want, but any spitzer bullet, regardless of weight,
if launched at 2250 fps muzzle velocity, if zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, it will be pretty much dead on at 200 yds
and 3.5 inches low at 230 to 240 yds....hence considering that 7 inch window of opportunity I mention above...
Since 90% of most game is taken at 100 yds or less, and 95% at 200 yds or less...
if one can hold steady enough to aim on hair, you should be able to hit your 7 inch window of opportunity...
most 150 grainers in 30 cal are made to operate at 30/30 speeds, and be effective...and do their job on a deer..
So that being considered, if your shoulder needs relief, 2250 fps to say 2400 fps, you have a load that will be more than up
to the task at hand....you are in the 300 Savage - 30/40 Krag operating range...
This is the logic I finally had dawn on me years ago, loading ammo for kids and women... and it has certainly brought home the venison
on most of the shooters... only times it didn't, their shot missed the deer...
also in that thought process, is added the fact that I was a military medic in the Army, from 1975 to 1982.
So I understand and know Anatomy and Physiology, which is included in that thought process...
either way, hope you heal up, and best of luck in your endeavors...
cheers,
seafire
I normally load 4198 and RL 7 for what I call kid loads, because that is who I normally load them for..
So that being considered, if your shoulder needs relief, 2250 fps to say 2400 fps, you have a load that will be more than up
to the task at hand....you are in the 300 Savage - 30/40 Krag operating range...
cheers,
seafire
seafire, I savvy everything you said - I can follow and agree with your logic.
The reason for the recoil reduction is not for "shoulder relief"....it is for brain relief. After having 3 major brain surgeries last year, I have become very recoil sensitive.
I went out Tuesday with my heavy barrel 223. I can shoot it well...and can tolerate the recoil.
BUT you put that 30-06 in my hand, and after 6 shots - my head is pounding - pressure inside my head rises - causing the top of my head to go numb.
My real issue is I am trying to prove to the Doctors and to myself that I am past this trauma in my life.. Apparently the Drs. are right - and my body confirms it.
If I get another chance to hunt this year, I'm lugging the heavy 223. It shoots sub MOA out to 100 yards with 55gr. Barnes TX bullets. And as you pointed out, 90% of my shots over the last 45 years have been in the 100 yards or less zone.
If God allows, I am going to hunt again. If I go out - I wish to go out living.
Thanks for the input.
GB
I normally load 4198 and RL 7 for what I call kid loads, because that is who I normally load them for..
So that being considered, if your shoulder needs relief, 2250 fps to say 2400 fps, you have a load that will be more than up
to the task at hand....you are in the 300 Savage - 30/40 Krag operating range...
cheers,
seafire
seafire, I savvy everything you said - I can follow and agree with your logic.
The reason for the recoil reduction is not for "shoulder relief"....it is for brain relief. After having 3 major brain surgeries last year, I have become very recoil sensitive.
I went out Tuesday with my heavy barrel 223. I can shoot it well...and can tolerate the recoil.
BUT you put that 30-06 in my hand, and after 6 shots - my head is pounding - pressure inside my head rises - causing the top of my head to go numb.
My real issue is I am trying to prove to the Doctors and to myself that I am past this trauma in my life.. Apparently the Drs. are right - and my body confirms it.
If I get another chance to hunt this year, I'm lugging the heavy 223. It shoots sub MOA out to 100 yards with 55gr. Barnes TX bullets. And as you pointed out, 90% of my shots over the last 45 years have been in the 100 yards or less zone.
If God allows, I am going to hunt again. If I go out - I wish to go out living.
Thanks for the input.
GB
If or until things change, your 223 will do the job admirably. No deer requires a 30 caliber bullet, and the 22 cals will kill (quickly) far bigger critters than many guys are willing to admit, just with chest shots.
Where the 223 isn't legal I'd say a 6mm of some type would do nicely.
Ditto on the 130TTSX.
Full house 243 with the 85TTSX is an easy shooting combo...
When people talk about recoil reduction loads, they want to reduce velocity, but they never seem to list the ranges that they are usually shooting those loads at....
in an 06, if its deer they are after, a 150 grain is plenty good enough, to take any deer whoever walked...
while most game (90%) is taken under 100 yds.....95% of all game is taken under 200 yds....
a deer is 16 inches from back bone to breast bone regardless of the weight of the animal...
if you look at a velocity chart, any spitzer bullet regardless of caliber,
if it leaves the muzzle at 2250 fps... if zeroed at 3.5 inches at 100 yds, it will be dead on at 200 yds, and 3.5 inches low at 230 to 240 yds...
in an 06, if you use a 150 grain bullet with an MV of 2400 fps, which equates to a 300 Savage equivalent.... you are good to 230 to 240 yds
without any compensation on your scope elevation ( if zeroed 3.5 in high at 100 yds)...
This formula give a window of opportunity of 7 inches... 3.5 inch high at 100 to 3.5 inches low at 240 yds..
on an animal that is 16 inches window of opportunity from back bone to breast bone..
30 grs of 4198 or RL 7 will give you 2400 fps MV with a 150 grain bullet....and give better accuracy than a lot of other reduced loads..
a cast bullet manual is your friend... I use a Lyman Manual... I have two, the other is the lastest edition for newer powders..
the older ones are from the 1980s.... who use a lot of data even older than that...
2400 fps out of an 06 is more of a slight push vs a punch style of recoil....
The conversation about reduced loads should always include bullet performance, too. I think that the 150 Interlock is a great choice and like has been stated, even dropping to a 125-30-grain bullet would work well. These low velocities, in my mind, exclude the monos, which can be problematic at times, when the velocity is low.
H-4895 and a 125 Accubond or Ballistic Tip at 3000 to 3100 fps. Sample of one, last year a 125 AB on a 185 lb buck went through the meaty part of both shoulders and stopped under the skin on the offside. Perfect mushroom and the buck stumbled about 20 feet.
A 130 TTSX might be the ticket at the starting load. I’ve killed some pigs with them in a 300 Savage. They hammered the pigs in their tracks.
I’ve found 4064 is far less recoil in 270 and 30-06 and accuracy is good