And in that same burn range? Something that meters well and is suitable for a 223?

Lever and CFE 223 are in that range, meter well, but seem way more temp sensitive.

Have you tried StaBall Match?

How does TAC stack up?

David your question is a valid one but honestly you may be overthinking a problem that may not exist in most temp ranges. I’ve posted about this numerous times and done quite a bit of testing from freezer to a closely controlled oven all over my reliable Oehler 35. This was done after a prairie dog hunt in Western CO in near 100° temps. I was shooting a 243AI loaded to the limit and the ammo was left in the sun for hours. Had these loads been backed off half a grain I doubt I would have seen flattened and cratered primers. Either way they shot great, no stiff bolts, no issues at all. So unless your loads are pushing the envelope and your not looking for 1/2” groups all the WW ball powders I use will do the job from 120° to -10° at very good hunting accuracy. So though progressive burning ball type powders are technically temperature sensitive it’s more of a ballistic test concern than actual field applications.

Rick

understood. Thanks Rick.

In my friend's custom 6mm CM, SB6.5 is about ultimately stable, as he gets the identical velocities in winter and summer at the range in Rifle, CO (that's with the 103 ELD-X). I have not shot SB6.5 in my own rifles enough to develop a data base. Currently using it in the 6.5CM and the 338-06. But in working up loads for a friend's 30-06 using SB6.5 and the 165 NAB, I saw what might be considered mild spikes at the high temp end in the Tucson summer. There were no pressure signs other than a ~30 FPS velocity increase in 90+ ambient conditions.
I have some SB-HD I look forward to wringing out in the 7mm RM but nothing yet to report.

Varget is mighty stable, so you have set a high bar.

Cheers,
Rex

I'd be inclined to try that. I know CFE223 is pretty stable in the 308w, but in a 223, that may be a different story. StaBall 6.5 seems to be pretty consistent and stable, so I'd think StaBall Match would be similar. The only problem I've seen with StaBall is it burns kind of dirty. Compared to other powders.



Good post.

Do you find it leaves hard powder fouling, or easily swabbed out dark residue from the copper fouling reduction agent?

Staball Match is much different, especially burn rate, than Staball 6.5.

I've just started working with it in 5.56 & I don't think it's all that dirty, so far. And it's MUCH better suited to that round than 6.5 is.

MM

to my understanding TAC is one of the better ball powders for temperature stability. but it's still not as good as like vargot or 8208.
but as has been pointed out many areas of the country may not need to be nearest concerned because their temperature swings aren't near as cold

TAC has been very stable for me in the .223AI and .223 with 75s. And it gets pretty cold around here.

Yeah Tac has been my go-to powder when loading for .223 Rem, i get better velocity than I do with Varget and I have experienced no temperature sensitivity but I have never tried it in extreme temperature situations say below zero type temps but it does stay stable from 20 to 90 degrees....Hb

May not be ball powder but is as temp stable as Varget and meters well, as a bonus since Australia's extreme Hodgdon powders have gone sky high pricewise.....

VihtaVuori N140 is a bargain

The description of TAC states it was designed for heavies in the 223 and match 308.

I've found it to work extremely well in that application.

I just zeroed a new scope on a .223AI:


And tested TAC in another .223 SAAMI:

Maybe I’m chasing a boogeyman.

The proof, they say, is in the putting.

And it doesn’t seem like getting good results or consistency is too hard when ball powders are loaded near their top end for a given cartridge.

More of a hard powder fouling. Takes more patches to clean out the bore. Worse than powders like Hunter and Big Game as well. One thing about CFE223, is it seems to burn clean. When shooting in really cold weather, I'll see more smoke with Big Game and StaBall as well. My favorite, AR Comp, is the best compromise from what I've seen.


Sounds great. I need to try some of that Match powder.

Sometimes/most times it's good to use a magnum primer too. I was getting some slight hangfires the other day with CFE223 in my 22-250. Stopped using it, and went to AR Comp. Problems solved. I know that does not help with your 223, but figured I'd reiterate that, when using ball powders. I was using CCI200's in my 22-250, and probably should have been running CCI250's, but my brass was primed and that's what I used. It wasn't even really that cold that day either. Around 30 degrees.

Is AR Comp a stick/extruded, disc/flake or a ball powder?

It is said to be a "reformulated" RL15. It's a stick powder, but the kernels are small. It actually meters through the uniflow very well. These are loads that I dropped from the uniflow. I found these 62gr TTSX for really cheap, so I've been messing around with them in my 1 in 8" twist Tikka. I figured if I could find a load that shot 1/2 moa for 3 shots out to 400 yards, I'd call it good enough:




CFE223 and Big Game did not shoot as well.

AR Comp is an excellent powder & one of my favorites but for the last 3 years or so it's been very hard to get & now that it's pretty available again, at least for now, it's just crazy expensive.

I found it locally last week at $56 / lb.

But it's clean, accurate, meters well & gives good velocity & has good temp stability.

In today's powder mark market, TAC is a deal, but does not give top velocity & I have never done nor seen a temp stability test on it.

If Jordan Smith vouches for it being temp stable, it probably is.

Varget is an excellent powder, but it doesn't meter well at all & in a small case, that matters for high volume loading.

I use it for low volume when I am willing to trickle up to weight & for target loads or for testing where I want the best accuracy.

If I really wanted to use it in a small case for regular use I'd invest in an auto measuring feeder.

MM

The folks on Snipershide suggested StaBall Match as a ball powder with great temp stability and next to Varget on the burn rate charts

Haven't used TAC much with bullets much heavier than 60 grains in the .223, but my very first cold-weather test with it 20 years ago when it was first introduced resulted in the same velocities and avrage accuracy at 70 and zero Fahrenheit.

But that's not surprising, since it was originally developed as a temp-resistant military powder for the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rounds.

It was also developed to result in minimal fouling, due to use in automatic rifles. Which it also does, if loaded to normal maximums. Have shot up to 500+ rounds without cleaning in some rifles, and group size didn't change.

Because of my good experiences with Staball 6.5 I started using Staball Match in .223 and 6mm ARC, and have been quite happy with the groups, velocities are good, but not as high as LVR. The testing that's out there seems to show that Staball Match has very good temp stability, especially for a ball powder. I have Staball HD in the lineup next to try in my 7PRC, hopefully it does as well as the other two.

Is that what they really say? putting?

I'm thinking the stuff Bill Cosby pimped

In my experience what they actually say is that it’s in the “pudding.”

The saying has two versions

“Generally, the expressions are used to say that the real worth, success, or effectiveness of something can only be determined by putting it to the test by trying or using it, appearances and promises aside—just as the best test of a pudding is to eat it.”

“The putting”’is correct.

The other saying is “the proof of the pudding is in eating it.”

I was discussing the proof being in the doing. Not in the eating.

what does that have to do with being temp insensitive ?

Must be an American thing as here it is 'pudding'.

I have seen AR Comp and due to a few of you, I wanted to grab some, but as MM mentioned, it's kinda pricey and LVR is still pretty reasonable.

TAC for me has been super stable in a somewhat compressed 358 win load from 30 to about 100 degrees F, maybe a 20 fps change across those temps, but loses/gains almost 1fps/degree from 50 to 100 degrees F when used in a not-quite full 9.3x62 case under a 250AB. It's definitely pretty poor case fill in the case of the 9.3.

I have found TAC to be very temperature stable. It's what I use in my competition service rifle ammo.
Most loads are 77gr and 80gr SMK's, but I use it with 52's for 100 yard practice.

I can't say about the American thing, but in the southern US it's 'puden'.

LVR is $36/pound here. I guess I should buy some more?

I've had similar experience. 22-250 and H380 with CCI 200 - I was running 100-120 fps slower than multiple books on the same powder charge. I built up another load with CCI250 - and my velocity matched the published velocity and powder charge weight.

I tried some staball HD in a 300 win mag just by tossing a few rounds in the freezer and shooting them as fast as I could and I could tell little to no difference between the round that was room temp and the one that was in the freezer.

I've used TAC in the .308 with 150 grain bullets in very hot weather in Africa with no problems, so it seems to be quite temperature stable. It's somewhat faster burning than Varget though.

Reloder 15.5 is also quite temperature stable but is slightly slower burning than Varget. RL-15.5 is probably closer to Varget in burn rate than TAC.

I have found WW ball powders to be very sensitive to temperature changes. Especially going from cool to hot. I had an accurate load worked up with a WW ball powder in my 300 Win Mag. No signs of pressure and listed in reloading manuals. I took that load and rifle to the range. It was about 100 degrees Fahrenheit, maybe a little more.
The first round no signs of pressure. The bolt was sticky on the third round. The fourth round, I had to take the rifle back to the shop and pound/pry the empty case out of the bolt.
I walked to the target 100 yards away and back between shots to allow cooling and a consistent time between shots.

Take this with a grain of salt, nothing was ever proven or tested, but back in the 80's Hodgdon was selling various mil surp ball powders for dirt cheap. All us High Power competitors were using it, the price was too good to ignore. We started getting failures to fire on the line...disastrous to rapid fire scores. Many competitors were using CCI primers, which had no goop...avoiding Federal primers which had goop but also a rep for slam fires. Well, just theory, but some pretty knowledgeable shooters opined that the super fine H380 and BLC-2 was getting down in the primer under the anvil, actually cushioning the firing pin strike. Enough of us believed it, that we started using Federals again which had a generous dollop of goop to keep powder from migrating between cup and anvil. Misfires did dramatically decrease after that...which kinda sorta lends some validity to the theory.