I've NEVER been able to get Barnes bullets to shoot consistently. Yesterday I bought another box of 338 185g TSX bullets to check pressures with the Pressure Trace unit I recently acquired. I've never gotten better than 2" groups with them, usually well over that, but thought I'd give them one more try and check pressures at the same time.

This lot of bullets had an ogive .015" different from the bullets several boxes of bullets out of one lot that I had tried before and tried to develop loads. Their inconsistency, at least for me, continues. On the plus side I checked about half the box for consistency and the greatest disparity I found was about .004" difference in ogives which is a lot better than some other premium brands. Not sure why I'm wasting my time with Barnes. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing and hoping to get different results?

You guys that use them with success are obviously doing something different. What is it?

I find myself frequently starting over with Barnes. Getting ready to go on a July hunt and find out Barnes no longer makes the .375 caliber 250 gr. X but now have a 235 gr. Also just switched over from VLS to Triple Shocks for the .284. I suspect the VLS will no longer be available in the not too distant future.

Look on the bright side, it's fun to work up loads and it gives you a reason to go shooting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm with you...I have Never worked up better than 2" groups
with barnes.
I think it's the twist/bullet lenght combo that makes them shoot or not.
All my rifles must be the nots.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Try this:

1. Clean ALL previous copper fouling out of the barrel: I scrub it till the patches come out clean. JB Bore Paste helps.

2. Shoot enough to re-foul with the TSX copper. If using Chrono you can tell when the velocity get consistent.

3. Dont' shoot any other bullets through your barrel until you find the TSX load you like.

4. If you can reach the lands, ty em .030 to .070 off the lands.

5. Use the TSX bullet weight that is closest to what you already know will shoot in you gun with another brand.

6. That's about all the help I can give but will encourage you to keep trying....the TSX shoots very well in ALMOST every gun I've tried it in (still having some issues in a .222 & 220 Swift with 53 grain TSX).

Good luck.

bobski
Funny I look to you for advice so i will try to help if can. I have found with the tsx the starting from the clean barrel is everything.Playing with seating depths i have found .40 off the lands seem to work the best for me.Like most everything posted above is good advice..One more thing i have found is the faster you push them the smaller the group.I have never shot a grouping that big with any Barnes bullets so I'm kinda puzzled.Try PMing Bart185.He seems to play with the tsx quite a bit.

Perhaps it's just the way I load, but I have found powders on the faster end of the spectrum to produce better results with Barnes bullets.

They also seem to be abnormally sensitive to runout.

The TSX's have not been especially finicky about fouling in my barrels. I can shoot them after other types with no ill effects.

Have you thought that maybe the twist in your 338 caliber isn't appropriate for 185gr bullets? Thats an awfully light bullet for the caliber and I would bet that there's a lot of 33 caliber rifles that might not like them.
I've had a number of rifles that shot Barnes bullets into less than 1" groups, including 1 at 300yds......................DJ

Gee thanks fellas, I was venting and really didn't think I'd get that many helpful thoughts. I've been fighting Barnes for over 10 years!!

I've tried the clean barrel bit and the fouled barrel bit and neither have ever helped but if it's been a help to one person, it could provide my answer. I'll try it again. I also hold my runout to .002" or under on all test loads so that isn't an issue. I've even tried a bit more bullet grip since the TSX's seem to not hold as firmly with a .002" grip. Neither seemed to have much positive effect other than the tighter grip holding the concentricity a bit better.

I've also considered the twist rate and that, plus the velocity may be my problem, but I've shot them through several configurations of 338's all the way up to 3300 fps and it didn't seem to matter. This barrel is a 22" 1:10 but in other cartridges I've used a 1:11" gain twist and a 1:12" and it didn't help.

I've also tried varying distances off the lands as Barnes recommends but I've even kissed the lands and also gone "into" the lands about .010" with little effect except hard bolt lifts. Occasionally I get two in one hole and one way out. The particular barrel I'm working with checking pressures seems to like the bullets a bit further out than I do normally but the Barnes seemed to work best around .030", occasionally a few thou � from that like .020" and .040". Some groups with the longer jumps were 6"!! I'm reasonably sure I'm doing something wrong and maybe some of your thoughts will help.

I just recently checked pressures and accuracy with 180g Noslers @ .020" off the lands and got groups in the 6's with H4350. This rifle is a 338WSM that is just a tad slower than a 338 Win Mag. Those .6" groups were fired near 3200fps. Put the Barnes in there and the groups go all to hell at similar velocity.

The two biggies to me right now are the speed (my gunsmith keeps telling me to push faster,) and the burn rate of the powder. I tend to load with the propellants on the slower end of the spectrum. After reading some of these great suggestions I've loaded up a ladder with Big Game at .030" off the lands all the way up to 73g which is pretty potent and I'll be checking the pressures closely. I think that powder is fast enough though I have tried RL15 and Varget which are faster and it didn't help, but then I wasn't pushing them to the edge either. As Eremicus on this board will tell you, at the range I'm called "Maximum Bob" and guys don't usually sit at the benches adjacent to me, so it's somewhat ironic to get the suggestions of pushing them faster!!

Thanks. I'll know more tomorrow.

Bobski-that is the one bullet from the TX line that I am boycotting from now till the end of time.

It is a shoot on Monday but not on Tuesday bullet 4 sure.

I've tried to no end to make that 185 shoot in my 338 wsm and in my 338/06.

But it just about drives me to drink.

DJ wondered about the twist and it is a good question but most all 33's are 10 twists. And every one of them from 338/06 to the 338 wsm to the 340 I've worked with will flat out shoot the 180 NBT so I dare say it is not twist related.

Personally Bob I say give up on it, that is what I finally did after going thru about 4 boxes or so of them.

Mark D

If the 180gr Noslers were the new Accubonds and they were shooting into the .6's I think I'd just forget about the barnes and call it good. Maybe the 180gr 338 TSX just sucks.
If the Noslers were Ballistic tips I can see why your frustrated. I shot a deer with a 33cal ballistic tip at about warp 3 and the process was ugly. The Accubonds weren't available then...................DJ

Bobski,

Have heard all the stories of loading with Barnes X. Here is Australia the 300gr .375 TSX is $90 for a box of 50 & that is the discounted price!!! I got some of the old Barnes X 300gr at a close out price & got 2 boxes.

Had my gunsmith to work out some loads for me in a 375 RUM on a rechambered M70 Stainless formerly a 375H&H. Here are the groups. You need to be lucky with a Barnes X. But this rifle is blessed with an excellent barrel. Very easy to clean & shoots anything really well.

The objective was to get the 300gr X & the 350gr Woodleigh to shoot to the same point of impact at 100yards. It seems AR2209/H4350 is the powder for it.

Regards
JohnT

dj-I've not test drove the 180 Accu yet in the OKH but I am gonna. The 180 NBT shoots like a varminter and it runs them at 3K.

Sort of an 06 on steriods and or a 300 WSM except with the ability to go to the heavy boys (250 Noz at 2600) if I like.

The 200 Accu shoots well, but not super. I hope to give the 180 Accu's a run in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks for the reminder.

Mark D

Mark,
I definitely agree with you. I'm way ahead of you on the boxes of Barnes I've tried though, something like 10 or 12, and I've had the same kind of "luck" with the 225 TSX's. It just kills me that others, like some of the guys in this thread, can have such good luck with them and I can't make them shoot. If you get curious about pressures on your wizzum give a shout. I'm pretty well ringing them out right now with the Pressure Trace.

DJ,
The AB's are basically the same BC as the BT's and I got them before the AB's came out. I thought I might consider them for mule deer should I decide to put in, but I mainly got them to experiment as I'm basically an elk hunter and I like SD for them. I'm pretty well set for most anything in 338 except light game.

IMHO,the .338" 210X is THE one.........................

PLEASE don't make me try them! I've spent too much on Barnes already with no success. Plus I've not had great luck with 210 Noslers either!

Just relating what's worked best for me.

The 210's,IMHO,boast the most inherent attributes,both in theory and application.

Nosler's ain't my gig......................

bobski, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I have fooled with Barnes bullets a lot over the years and esp with the TSX. They are ok and will shoot but are not, and never have been, as accurate as some other bullets in any of my rifles that I have tried them in.

BCR

1

Bobski-thanks for the offer, I am more than curious as to the pressures on "Fat Bastard", which is my 338 WSM.

On the 210 TSX, it shoots in about one tiny hole in my 340 but can't quite get it to perk in the OKH and or in "Fat".

There is just not enough case room to put it and the amount of powder in it that I want. It keeps wanting to back itself out.

I'll get with you though for sure.

If you don't mind PM me your phone #.

Gotta run, daylight is burning and I've many miles to run today.

Mark D

Done. I DID have good luck with the 210 Noslers in this one, the first time I've had any luck with them in any of about a dozen barrels. Mostly they were marginal at about 1.2" groups in others. They came in under MOA near 2900 fps in this one. Working on 185 TSX's and 225 AB's today. Gone shooting!!

When you get back from trying the 185's again pour yourself a drink and then let us know how it went...If I was a drinking man that is what I'd do...

Bob you taken much for game with the plain old 200 Horny at about 2800 or so? My 338/06 and my Fat Bastard absolutely love that head.

Mark D

77grains of 760 behind the 185 brings it home at .6

su-what cal are you speaking of?

Thx

Mark D

Mark
I think he's speaking 338 with that load.But you already know that.

Didn't do much better with the 185 TSX's yesterday but did manage to finally get TWO groups under 2", one at 1.41" @ 3144fps and the other @ 1.873" @ 3200 fps. They were WAAAY overloaded but the cases took new primers fine requiring a bit of "normal" pressure to seat when I reloaded them today. I'm loading down a bit and trying a bunch of seating depths with the load that produced the 1.41" group. In both cases there were two holes almost touching and the other bullet way out, not in the same sequence. Maybe Eremicus hexed me on the first group as he and other buddies put the pressure on me for the third shot after I announced they were touching. In the other case the first two shots were the widest and the third fell in between touching the first shot, same ol' same ol'. I have 41 bullets left in this VERY LAST BOX of Barnes bullets I will ever use!!! (Unless they decide to shoot!)

I wasn't too impressed with my pressure measuring device either. None of the loads showed pressure over 60,000 psi and in the "ladder" I shot with 1g difference, the pressures didn't vary 1000 psi from the lightest to the heaviest load and yet I had to use a crowbar to open the bolt on the heavier ones.

I gave up on Barnes bullets a long time ago due to their inconsistant performance. Gave away a couple hundred dollars worth of their bullets. If I find need for extra penetration, I will go to partitions, accubonds or A-Frames. They all give a better wound channel and usually exit. But I will continue to use cup/core bullets for my deer and hog hunting. The rest of the loaders of the world can have my share of Barnes bullets.Rick.

Actually 7 STW I didn't know which cal he was talking about, that is why I asked...

Mark D

I've had a few consistancy problems with Barnes bullets. The 100 gr. .25 XLC's did OK, the 75 gr. .25 X merely required my trying about six different powders before they'd shoot at all, and then there was the 120 gr. 7mm XBT. Shot fine, like .2 - .6 in my custom .280. But, if it was really cold, in the 30's or less, or really warm, like close to 90, they shot "about" twice that. Then, good old Barnes changed the point shape. Never did get them to be as accurate, but at least they weren't so touchy.
I thought they got away from those long, sloping noses in their bullets. Their latest versions of the 120 gr. 7mm XBT were. Their 168 gr. .308 XLC's were, and they shot fine out of both of my .308's.
So, I bought a couple of boxes of the new XXX bullets. The 140 gr. 7mm version has a shorter nose. That's OK. But their 150 gr. .308 are even longer than my 168 gr. Hornady .308's ! I don't have fancy custom barrels to shoot them in. :
I sure hope they don't give me fits like some of their others have. All in the name of squeezing a bit higher BC or giving the buyer the warm, fuzzy "wows" when he looks at them. We'll see. E

Me Neither. I went back to Noslers and Sierra. Double GGRRRRRRRRRRGH. Regards. Rick.

We thank you......................

I tried Barnes bullets in the early 90's when a sliver of lead got into the wifes venison chop. I had spotty luck with them accuracy wise but it was the petals breaking off in tests on water cartons and the small diameter they expanded to when they did not break off made me loose interest.

There have been other reports that they don't always expand for some reason and then Barnes can't get paperwork straight with a manual that has too hot loads and BC's that are a pipe dream.

I still wish Barnes well however and in fact I am going to buy some of the new MRX's and give them another try. I understand that they may be out this summer.

Reading between the 'lions' I note that some aim for the bone with X's and like to roll them in moly. I like the .358. I aim for any vital area and it always works. No special bullet required expept for lead in the chops. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

I moly everything and don't live in a locale that is condusive for tearing lungs outta things and watching them run off and die in the pucker brush. Hide and Seek ain't my idea of the highpoint of a Hunt.

So I shoot with that mindset and drive tools that are commensurate................................

That matters around here too. There may be a hunter over the hill that puts the last shot in what you shot first or a land border where you can't trespass if the wounded animal makes it there. When doing crop damage control these conditions are there in spades as it's usually summer and lots of people are around.

When in the woods up north however when the visiblity is 50 to 150 yds and a buck might appear just like that and then disapear in the trees again a fast shot is good if you want to get something. I would take a shot at any vital area and on a running animal as well if it were close enough. For this a large wound satisfies us as better.

To each his own. When in Rome do as the Romans do etc.

It takes more than moving Venison,to slow me down.

One in the ass,is better than two in the grass.

X marks the spot..........................

Legend has it that satisfaction comes from both length and girth. This is close range advice.

Placement dictates the final outcome.

Always has,always will..........................

A larger diameter deeper wound increases the odds of placement.

I call it "The Case For The Large Humane Wound"

HUH???

Follow the link added above.

"Placement dictates the final outcome.

Always has,always will":


This don't require a link.



7Shamu/120 moly V-Max at 3350fps muzzle velocity,impact at a little under 200yds via 6x42.

I'd term results being beyond predictable.................

Like I said....huh...

Mark D

You missed the point.

Don't look like I missed a thing......................

man, thats hard for me to look at...rather look at a human with his dome blown apart! Usually it is for good reason. Exactly why I dont head shoot my deer.

Well...you crazy couldn't like the 257Wby.................(grin)

Followed by "Placement dictates the final outcome. Always has, always will....."


Is it just me or did we quit talking about wounds for a minute? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've shot every Barnes version in my 300 win mag (stock) and I've gotten all of them to shoot under an inch.

From view of things, I think the guys who get Barnes bullets to shoot are paying very close attention to consistency in loading, OAL compared to the lands and grooves, and correct bullet weight for caliber.

I think there is just something that the guys that aren't getting them to shoot, are not giving up about their reloading techniques because they know that it may not be the best thing. Or they just don't want to put much more effort into it than they already are.

JMO

Like many, I had what might be MIXED results with X's, and had gotten pretty tired of it it--until the Triple Shock came out. Probably loaded them in 12-15 rifles now, in various weights.

The largest groups I've gotten were around 1.5", and that from an old pre-'64 Model 70 in .270 with a pretty worn barrel. Generally I expect under an inch, and have gotten much better.

I load them like any other bullet, just off the lands, and so far have not had to fool with seating depth. Also, in most rifles with decent bores have had excellent luck switching back and forth between TSX's and "regular" bullets. I do not moly anything anymore, and have found that TSX's generally foul only about like standard golding metal bullets in the same bore.

So don't know what to tell you! The TSX's have just worked for me ever since they appeared. They are also made to expand FASTER, and they have done that on animals from 25 to 2000 pounds.

MD

Check out these groups all shot with TSX's.The groups on the metal gongs were shot at 300 yards, the paper target group was shot at 100 yards.

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...p;page=1#108976

Just to put a close on this issue from this end, I followed some of the suggestions made by a couple of posters, faster powders and more velocity. SUCCESS!! Thanks for all the suggestions.

Varget gave me a .934" group @ 3088 fps. (This is a 22" barrel, gun weighs 7# 14 oz.) RL15 @ 3122 fps and 63,000 psi a 1.2" group, and Big Game @ 3095fps a .552" group.

Guess the slower powders were my problem. I learned something. Thanks for all the suggestions, now if I can duplicate some of these groups tomorrow and they were not just an aberration I've accomplished something, but my using Barnes in the future isn't likely.

Barnes needs a jolt of at least 40,000 psi to upset the copper bullet into the rifling and seal it, or it never will reach its potential velocity, and fluctuations in muzzle exit speed will vary more, shot to shot.