Ok, quick background, rifle that Mickey put a Rock barrel on years ago. First shooting it now.

Rem 660(600? I forget) anyway short.

Having to seat bullets 2.830. That MIGHT be whats driving me nuts.

22 inch barrel. what should have been mild loads over the chronograph were about normal. 140 grain bullets.

Even the ones that clocked like 2600 fps could hardly open the bolt.

Flash forward bolt timing way off, had a new bolt handle put on by a top gun in that field.

Starting over again. 2800 fps first load, and the bolt always opens until the cam point just fine. at 2800 I had to bump it a bit. By the time I got to 2920 I had to hit it to get it open. With the palm pretty hard. IE no way I can cycle this gun on my shoulder and its my guiding backup gun for me for moose/sheep/grizzly this fall. I may have to fall back to my 338-06 but I really wanted the 284.

So at the moment I'm not sure what is making this last bit of bolt opening so hard. At this point I'm going to burn more 2nds of 140s around 2800 to see if it groups well enough( I was expecting this to be well under MOA as a shooter) and if the bolt opens easy enough I can live with it. If so I'll swap to 139 LRX and hope like heck they group well enough.

I"m open to comments and if I left out info please ask. There is a lot I have not put like brass brand etc....

Your guiding,you can't afford to have any equipment around that has any reliability issues. It don't sound like anything you would loan a friend either. You can get that level of performance from a stock 7-08 to. Do what you need to to have 100 % CONFIDENCE in your gun. MB

Possible problem could be neck thickness. SAAMI max neck is .320." Check the diameter of loaded rounds, make sure they are plenty below that. But I'll bet Mickey's reamer was way below SAAMI max, so measure fired cases, make sure they are at least .002" above the loaded rounds.

But you are a very experienced hand, so I am sure you know all of that.

Send it to Shooter71. He'll sort it out.

Sounds like pressure problems. If loads are what should be “in the book” perhaps it could be a tight chamber, tight bore or a combination of both. Have you tried different powders? How about OAL? If bullets are being forced into the lands pressure can be seriously jacked.
Sometimes, for whatever mysterious reason, some rifles just can’t be safely loaded to what would normally be considered safe maximum velocities. I have a 7x57 that is like that. I can safely achieve about 2800 fps with most 140 gr. bullets and about 2770 with 145s. I know there are others on this site that have claimed about 2900 or better but that is simply out of reach with my rifle. I don’t lose any sleep over it - I just live with it. It kills game just fine.

To change the subject slightly. The 284 Win. is a fine cartridge and if I had the luxury of accurately placing a properly constructed bullet into a unsuspecting grizzly I wouldn’t hesitate. However, if I were in your position, where there’s the possibility of facing a seriously p****d - off wounded grizz at feet rather than yards range in a choked alder thicket, I’d much rather be carrying your 338-06 (or my 35 Whelen) stoked with good 250 grainers. I realize that you’re a guide while I’m just a hunter but....just sayin’.🙂

Brass, reamer and dies have to be the same dimensions, or you will always have issues. Had the same problem with my 6.5 X 284.

Tried to get a 284 to work in a SA LH Rem 700 limited on bullet selection 284 bullets on factory rounds were all short for reason. 145 Gr Speer is probably your best bet. Ended up going with the 7-08 for more choice in bullets.

Thanks for the words.

It will be reliable or it won't go. Thats why I'm sorting through it now. It ran perfectly as a 308 for years...

I did a check check on the necks long ago and it was all fine, but I'll remeasure, maybe I read it wrong.

No clue who shooter 71 is or if its a joke.

Powders. Started with RL17. Gave me same bolt issues which led me to cam issues.... since I don't have it down here, I"m starting with 4350. Get the same results. I don't think changing more is going to help. Seating depth, its no where near rifling. Thats for sure. And I don't dare seat em any deeper in the case than they are already. Kind of stuck right there unless I have room to open the box somehow but I doubt that

About bears and such. Understood. Barnes bullets and I'm comfortable with it and thats pretty much it to me. My 338-06 will get the call if the 284 doesn't finish out this spring, but again, a 140 mono at 2800 will stop any foolishness as long as you are calm and accurate enough.

KK I had not thought of it exactly that way. No way of knowing reamer, I know he borrowed it from another smith as he did with my 7x300 wtby. Reloading I can stick whatever bullet in it and if its not a mono for what I want then I'll just step up in round size.

In the end my buddy keeps telling me lets rip the tube off and put a shilen in 338 federal on it.... but I paid so much for and have had such great results with Rock tubes..

I still may think about buying the stuff to polish the chamber and see if that helps any on extraction.

Jeff, shooter71 is a gun smith here on this site, He seems to be gaining a reputation for doing quality work.

[quote]....buying the stuff to polish the chamber....

Possibly a rough spot or a burr? Never thought of that.🤔. Any suspicious marks on your brass?

I love my 284 and 6.5x284 but..... they belong in a long action (mauser or '06 length).
Even if you get the feed and extraction working fine in a short action, there are
overall length issues.

How does your brass feed and eject before you load a charge. Are you having
shoulder or length of brass issues????

Since you are going to use this for relatively up close and personal situations, maybe you could
find a sturdy round nose bullet of say 150 gr. and be able to get a full charge of powder in the case
when you figure out the extraction/pressure problem.

Reloader 17 works great for me and also H4350.

Can your local smith borrow a set of 284 Win reamers and gauges and clean up your chamber????

Thanks!

Not really, but the guy that retimed the bolt said the chamber looked like a corncob and the barrel a gravel road. But then he doesn't like Rock and then finally said the barrel looks like it should shoot fine... LOL. Who knows.

Feeds perfectly. Smooth as silk for me. Ejects just fine.

Its not so much up close, we don't kill grizzly that often but more a backup for a moose and sheep which can be long range affairs hence the use of a higher BC bullet. When it comes to real bears on bear only hunts, the 458 comes out.

Good to know I should be ok on powder.

I will check with my friend, I know he does not have a 284 reamer but we could borrow maybe... I'll have to let him scope it I guess. I sure had thought the timing would solve the issue.

Shoulder length I have no clue, I don't have a case gauge for this one. OAL of brass has been fine. No growth to speak of.

Had an issue once on forming 257 wtby brass and had to learn to anneal it first. Maybe this needs annealing or I should see if I can get actual 284 brass instead... see if it matters. But on the 257 while it was hard to chamber to fire, once fired it came out fine...

I'm missing one thing here I THINK... I just gotta figure out which one.

Sure hope I don't have to rebarrel or buy a new gun. I just love this gun for some reason. Guess I should have left it in 308 years ago...

Well hard to say for sure, maybe the area where the bolt lugs contact the action needs some polishing. Could be some physical reason for it instead of pressure.

From above-----"or I should see if I can get actual 284 brass "

What brass are you using if not 284 Win brass?????


I snagged a bag of 50 pcs of new Winchester 284 Win brass a week ago. Not anxious to sell, but
would consider if someone is really struggling.



" OAL of brass has been fine. No growth to speak of."

What is the actual O.D. at the web before and after firing/???

What is the actual trim length before loading and after shooting ????


Using only new brass or some reloaded also???
Sure your sizer die is set right????

Just thinking out loud.
Tim

The current trend toward shorter cases, 1.920" for the 6.5 Creedmoor, suggests that the 7mm-08, 2.035", might be a better fit, COAL wise, in a short action Remington magazine box than the 284 at 2.170".

I have 6.5-284s on both short and long actions and don't have any COAL limits in the long action, but do it the short actions.

Kinda late for that...

284 is special run mostly at least when I bought brass years ago... so I bought hornady 6.5x284. Run it through the die, done. Just can't fathom it being an issue related to the bolt not unlocking.

Have shot both brand new brass and 1-3 times fired, all same, all same gun.

new 2.157 Fired 2.162 after 3 firings. After one its 2.157/158. Not growing much.

Web basically .498 to .500 and same after firing.

This is what bothers me the most. Not sure I can have a way to really figure it out. Last time I checked the lug bearing surfaces both were bearing and nothing looked weird. I"ve never lapped lugs and IIRC there is just normal bearing, not lapped into like 100 percent both lugs or anything like that.

OTOH where would this be, the bolt lifts smoothly until that last little part where its supposed to help cam the ejection out..

Anyway I have a few loaded at a mid load, if it clocks 2800 or better, bolt works ok and the accuracy is close, I'll swap to the barnes and see what they give for accuracy and speed. Got tired of burning up barnes while looking for the issue.

OF course if this works itself out, I will run a lot of ammo through to make sure it continues to work before committing to it, with the 33806 back somewhere as secondary backup or maybe just the 458. I really like the 458 actually. Its just not the ideal thing in case we are after a sheep

There is a difference in original WW 284 brass and other 6.5 X 284 brass. If you can find original brass try it and see if you have the same issues. Also, use a felt pen on sized brass to see where it is large in your chamber.

Go back to the basics, see if dies, brass and chambers should be the same dimension, felt pen and brass should tell the story.

I think you have a mechanical issue with the gun, but I will send you 5 brand new
pieces of Winchester 284 brass if you want to take that step.

Is it ever too late to install a new, or at least different, barrel if doing so makes the rifle more useful?

Jeff,
I dont think it's ever too late.
But don't you suspect that rost has an issue within that chamber...and if so, wouldn't that be more of an issue versus his C.O.A.L.?

And maybe, if there's enough shank, the barrel can be set back a twist, and the existing chamber can be cleaned up.?


I'm just asking, in light that it could be my situation and I'd want to know what is causing that issue.

Thanks.

Have you slugged the bore? It might be undersize, causing pressure issues. Once I loaded ammo for a fellow with a beautiful Griffin & Howe custom 270 on a Mauser action. It had all the bells and whistles. However, my standard 270 load (55 grains of IMR 4350 under a 130 grain bullet) was too hot at about 3,150 fps. I backed down, and ended up several grains under what I started with. I didn't slug the bore, but have little doubt that was the problem. An undersize chamber was not the problem.

Another thought - a chamber cast would show whether or not you have a tight chamber. If that is the case, a small base sizing die might solve the problem.

A friend brought me a 788 in 6mm a while back, said he was having a hard time getting the bolt open after a shot and thought his rifle was screwed up. Turned out to be the brass...Federal factory loads. When I fired a round of my handload put up in Hornady brass extraction was as normal as can be. Could be anything though...the possibilities are endless.

Well yeah but I want to try to work this out. LOL. Hate to waste an expensive Rock tube if its something else.

Sure tells me weird though its just that last 10 percent of camming open hard thats tough.

I hope it does not quit raining, but when it does I"ll fire a few more tests to see.

maybe time to order cerosafe for the first time in my life too.

Undersize barrel, yes, could be but IIRC I was under the impression that pressure was related to MV to an extent. IE I should be getting a better speed but at less powder...

KK AK, your PM box is full....

Rost its mt now

had a 99F savage in 284. couldn't find brass. bought Hornady 6.5x284.
would have to rod tap the fired cases out to get the lever open. tried turning necks and every other damn thing I could think of to solve it.
finally solved it by throwing the Hornady brass away and getting some Winchester. never did figure out WTH.

That would be wild... but sure could be. Like I said I had similar making 257 wtby from once fired RP 7 mag until I annealed cases really good before running into the WTBY die. Solved chambering issues.

had a 99F savage in 284. couldn't find brass. bought Hornady 6.5x284.
would have to rod tap the fired cases out to get the lever open. tried turning necks and every other damn thing I could think of to solve it.
finally solved it by throwing the Hornady brass away and getting some Winchester. never did figure out WTH.[/quote]

6.5 X 284 Brass is larger than 284 WW brass when you fire form it not much room for expansion in a 284 chamber esp. a tight chamber.

Go back to the basics Brass, Dies & chamber should be similar. Or you will have issues, cost me a lot of money and time to figure that out.

Jeff,

Had a similar mystery a few years ago, with another cartridge. Turned out to be soft brass. Had used the same brand for years with no problems, but you never know.....

Do you have other obvious pressure signs on the primer or case head? Bullet drop in a fired case? Brass not too long for chamber? Rings or weirdness in fired brass? .284 varies, by that I mean geometry of the saami lever chamber and a “match” chamber differ.

No real pressure signs until I hit about 3050 or so but by then you had to open the last bit of bolt by mallet. But brass didn't expand that I could measure much. Primers not flat but had lost round edges but that varies so much by brand at times.

I don't see a mark on the brass for the chamber IE being to long, but I have not ordered cerosafe to cast chamber YET.. maybe today is that day. No way to find what chamber since Mickey died.

Nothing weird on fired brass really, other than some mild scratches that match what the retiming guy said rough chamber. but nothing deep.

If I had a set of 308 size Redding plus/minus shell holders maybe I could size it more... am waiting out some new brass from a campfire member before ordering lots of brass..to see if it makes the difference or not.

bullet drops into fired case.

I despise brass trimming and have no clue where my trimmer is right now since the move. BUT I'll have to look and trim some back under the trim length and fire one that way with same load just to see.

Will keep on this bit at a time as I have time for the next month or so to see what gives or if I'm going to run the 338-06 instead this fall if I can even get back to Alaska and we even hunt. LOL.

I had a 270 Wby that the dies wouldn't quite resize the brass enough. I took a spare shellholder in vise-grips and used the bench grinder to take a little off the top allowing the dies to resize just enough. Just a thought.

Good luck.

Buy some 284 win brass . Joe Russo has new 284 brass for sale at Long Range Hunter site.

Try a box of factory ammo....
I know that it is expensive and can be hard to find, but if I have a gun that is not shooting reloads as expected, I try a box of factor ammo as a standard..
So far as brass, try Buffalo Arms...
https://www.buffaloarms.com/284-winchester-cases-made-by-winchester-284win

If your LGS doesn't have factory ammo, here is a link for you
https://ammoseek.com/ammo/284-winchester

Have WW new brass coming to try.

Haven't seen a box of factory 284 in a long time, but its easy enough to order. That thought totally slipped my mind.

But I am fairly confident at this point the different brass will make a difference. If not there are a few other things I"m checking in the meantime... and will get it figured out.

Cerrosafe on the way too...

If it had came in my shop with that complaint, I would coat a factory loaded round with spray on "prussian blue" or "steel red" or last choice, magic marker. (do not use any dye product with a lubricant medium)....fire it, extract it and read the evidence. Handloads in the diagnostic phase just introduce more variables into the possibilities. My early suspicions would center on the bolt handle re-attachment, (the handle is timed to perform primary extraction at the exact degree of rotation that the locking lugs clear the locking abutment in the receiver) IF a belled chamber is eliminated. Full floating reamer holders, that many gunsmiths like ( I don't) by their very name imply a degree of risk of runout. The reamer is dependent on the pilot and the absence of flaws or changes of hardness in the barrel steel, to cut a good chamber. Reamers, like people, if allowed want to take the path of least resistance. Before I get flamed for picking a side on the proper technique for reaming, there is old skool, and new skool, each has it's advantages.

I may have this solved, but only a none rainy day and enough time will answer.

Seems the brass I have is BIG and the Redding die doesn't size it any smaller.

I have new smaller brass thats a lot smaller and once I test fire a warm load with it, we will see if I have to go further.

Handle timing, done by the best in the nation that I know of, but again we all can make a mistake.

Not sure if it would help, but if you want to check the chamber I have go/no go gauges I'd loan you.

I"ve been waiting to fire more tests but just have not made time lately. Getting so much done around the farm thats needed doing for years its hard to stop to just shoot. At least I trimmed the tree by the bench that drives the Oehler 35 nuts with shade at times...

So fired one round. One round with new much smaller brass. That case had similar case capacity, IIRC the ones I had issue with and the new ones were about 4 or 5 grains different. Not huge.

But the WW cases were quite a bit smaller cross section at the expansion point.

Loaded the same charge that gave me a miserably hard bolt lift that needed a hard thump to get the bolt open... that one single round did not chrono good under the shady tree... 1256 which we know is way off... should have been 2900 or so.

BUT the bolt lift was like butter. Case didn't expand as much as the unfired hornady cases. Sizer die sized it a bit, so I'm still working on a small base body die or custom die.

I'll report back later but I think the whole dang issue was much oversize brass. Thanks to Keith here on the fire, we've had some long emails... and I"ve learned a lot. Part of it that 284 brass and chambers can be all over the place. Never experience that before. I was about to order lapua brass... found out that would have been BIGGER than the Hornady brass and likely not chambered at all in my chamber.

Live and learn and thanks for all the input. Its been actually interesting and fun while totally frustrating. Actually due to covid 19 I'm stuck in TX for way longer than I wanted which gives me time to work and shoot more than I expected so its now less stressful. LOL.

WW brass is smaller than most, had same problem in my 6.5 X 284, RCBS dies would size brass more than Redding dies also. Dies , brass and chamber must be similar dimensions.

Good to know about the RCBS dies. Have a supposed smaller Lyman die coming at some time.

Want to call Harrels about a custom die for it, but just keep forgetting during the day when I'm out working. LOL.