using Varget in 223 with a 69 gr SMK, varget meters like dog chit. Whats the best ball power to replace the Varget?

TAC

You may also want to try CFE 223. It's showing a little better velocity than Varget.

What about AR comp? Heard about it but never tried it

Re-15 is your friend.

AA2520 meters great.

kwg

Meters just as bad as varget. Need ball powde

AR Comp is a good Varget substitute but it's stick too, it's not going to meter well either. If I remember right the grains are a bit shorter than Varget so that might help.

I'll second the CFE223 recommendation. More temperature sensitive, but gives good velocities and meters well.

CFE 223 flows like sugar

H335 was the WC852(? not sure of that number) govt contract powder for Ball M193 and enough of it was used by the benchresters to establish it's bona fides accuracy wise. If you burn a bunch of it you will see some variation of lots and will need to tweak the load a little if your rifle is picky.

If you really want ball powder it is hard for me to recommend CFE223, I have never got top accuracy out of it in anything..........
To me H335 and H380 are the Dog Schit of the powder universe, that leaves W748 as the powder you are after......

TAC?

Otherwise pretty hard to beat Varget with those 69 grain bullets.

Contrarily, I've not had issues with H 380, have had with H 335...

But I'll agree with BoatAnchor via W 748.....BLC2, W 748 and CFE223, are so close, they seem interchangeable in my needs...
If I had to pick one, it would be W 748 First, BLC2 second, and CFE223 third....

I use a lot of AR Comp, and RL 15....

I gave up on Varget long ago... as the above mentioned powders worked just as well, and they had one more key feature...AVAILABILITY..

Loaded up some TAC, CFE223 and some WW748 only cuz it was handy.

All with 69 gr SMK. We shall see what happens.

AR Comp is re-formulated RL15 designed to meter better through a powder measure. It drops though my RCBS uniflow very well. Passport may need to look into a different powder measure, if it is metering that poorly. Mine will also drop RL15 very well, but AR Comp works better. I gave up on Varget for a couple reasons. Got better accuracy with AR Comp and RL15, and it didn't meter well through my powder measure. Both good reasons to switch.. I've also tried CFE223, but don't get the accuracy from it as I do with AR Comp.

I've used both TAC and CFE223, can't imagine anything flowing better than them.

I'd say it flows better than water when it hits the floor.

Burn 8208 in a variety of bullet weights in 556

If TAC and CFE223 are the options I'd go with TAC without a second thought. I wasted some time and money trying CFE223. I've never heard or read of anyone finding top accuracy with it.

Hodgdon introduced Varget in 1995, I bought a couple pounds at the LGS. I tried it and LOVED it.......went back and bought all they had. apparently I bought enough to last me 21 years, when I ran out 4 years ago and bought a few pounds of the new Varget I found out quickly the new Varget and the original Varget are not the same at all.
I don't know when the Australian manufacturer changed the original formula to the EXTREME formula but it was not a positive move for Varget !!!!!!!!!!
I have been searching for an alternative myself using mostly RL15, unlike the OP I try and stay away from the temp issues of most ball powder.
Never tried or even thought about AR Comp, picked up a couple pounds today and cant wait to try it (when the temp gets close to freezing or above)

In my experience with AR Comp, I don't think you are going to find any thing to worry about as far as temp sensitivity...

I haven't seen it, and I've probably gone thru 20 plus pounds of it so far...

I was picking it up since it came out in 8 lb containers... online orders

I was shooting H380 in my 22-250's but wasn't happy with how it behaved when it got hot on the prairie dog fields, it does some pretty wild stuff when it gets hot. I experimented with several powders and settled on AR-Comp. It gives me good velocities, accuracy, temp stability, and it was widely available at the time which was about five years ago. I laid in a bunch of it and still have 16 lbs in the locker if I remember right.

I like AR-Comp a lot, it's a very versatile powder with a lot of uses and it's consistent which is something I can't say for a lot of others.

Metering isn't something I pay much attention to because I've got two chargemasters side by side I use to weigh everything.

It sure does, just bought two 8 pound jugs.

Been shooting the 69 TMK in the 223, TAC and CFE 223 run about the same accuracy, CFE runs faster.

Yeah but how accurate is it ?????.......or is that not a concern for your needs ??????????

Kinda off topic but I hit the local Sportsman's Warehouse this morning. They had put out a few pounds of Varget. They were only allowing 1 lb/customer. I snagged a lb of Varget and a lb of H4895. Seems like a little powder is dribbling through the supply chain.

I also use CFE223 for my .30-30 loads with 170 gr Hot Cor FN bullets.....

TAC works great, but Benchmark , although not ball, is my favorite for .223 rem. Its accurate, good velocity, and meters well.

Set a meter a grain under, or even a specific size powder measure scoop, then use and auto trickler to top it off. No more issues with any powder

That would be WC844.
WC846 = Blc(2)
WC852 = H380. Be careful with 852, there were some fast lots that didn't meet milspec that were surplused, so start a bit lower than normal when you work up with it.

Shooters World Match Rifle's another good alternative, but right now the best powder is the one you can get.
Glad I stocked up when I did.

Benchmark is excellent, and it does meter nicely (maybe just not quite as smooth as H335, but not a problem). AR-Comp is an excellent powder, too. It's not quite as smooth metering as Benchmark but it's not nearly as balky as Re15 and the like.

CFE 223.

Winchester 748

Actually, the snobs here may scoff but the Lee perfect powder measure does pretty well with extruded powders. I keep a Lee and an old RCBS on my bench. I like extruded powders and the Lee does not cut the sticks like others do.

Are you saying "the Lee perfect powder measure does pretty well with extruded powders" because the measure doesn't bind up, or because you get consistent charge weights? Consistent according to WHAT scale, and consistent as in "within a half-grain," or what ?

I have 3 differennt powder measures gathering dust. The Lee is the only one I use. With Varget and 4895 it’s usually within a tenth of a grain. Close enough for general shooting. For special loads I set it just a hair low and dribble in what’s needed. My personal observation. Edk

I use IMR 8208 BR with the Sierra 69 gr SMK. Very accurate in my rifle.


Dan

Very accurate in two Rock River AR’s.

This is some good info. Thanks for posting.

The most accurate loads I've put together for the AR all featured milsurplus WC846. It's really good stuff, just work up your loads in the summer.

Same for the .338 Win Mag, but with WC852. I've shot some really good groups with it behind 200gr NBT's, but I'm not comfortable with just how hot those loads are, so I stick to the non-canister H4831-sc I have for the rifle.

Agree. I could not get CFE to shoot accurately in .223. I have a lb of BLC2 I'm going to try. If I can't get it to shoot I will go back to AA2520 and 748.

kwg

The most accurate load I've ever shot in any 223 that I've had, and that's been a bunch, has been with WC846 and a 50 grain VMax bullet, Winchester cases and Remington 7 1/2 primers. I have an 8 pound jug left, and I'm probably hoarding too much.

I believe that.
Substitute 50gr Nosler Varmagedons, and CCI 450's for me.

Same.

I've had better luck with TAC.

Shooters World Precision Rifle

Curious if anyone has tried IMR-4166 as a replacement for Varget

I lucked out with the last two 8 lb ers of varget from Recobs just a couple weeks ago. So I’m setting good for a while.

How was your experience with it?

Shooters World "match". Is a nice flowing ball powder in that burn rate. I get mine from Midway when they have the free shipping
so i pay only 12.50 haz-mat.I wish i would have found this powder before burning up a couple of pounds of CFE 223, which i
like in my 17Rem but nowhere else.

RL 15 or Win 748

I find that AR-Comp meters pretty darned well. Not as nicely as TAC or H335, but not bad at all. I use a baffle in my UniFlow, so maybe that helps.

Tac or CFE 223 as has been discussed.
Tac has a ton of other options in other calibers (not unlike varget but for faster burning applications). Not sure if CFE 223 has quite the amount of load data.

I guess I'm the odd man out. I absolutely love CFE-223. It returns excellent accuracy in my couple .223's, meters beautifully, and for me at least in my barrels, lives up to its copper fouling reduction claims. The folks I know in "real life" report the same - it's only on the internet that I hear CFE-223 bashing. (Kind of like with Leupold scopes - no "real life" bashing but plenty of it on the 'Fire.)

As for metering issues with stick powders, I use an ancient Belding&Mull and a newer Harrell's and get very very acceptable results, such that I don't bother weight checking each load on a scale. I found that I can't tell a difference on paper between loads of Varget, 4895,4064,4350, etc. that are individually weighed versus simply measured. My suggestion to someone frustrated with his measure: get a different measure. Just because it is painted a shade of green doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.

Agreed that for any given application there is a ball/spherical powder that will do as well as Varget.

Disagree that there is any single ball/spherical powder to use for Varget in every application..

Tac certainly in a .223/5.56 and similar but not in a .376 Steyr..

I suspect but I've never tested it that stick powders may shift less in the case and so have a more consistent burn than ball powders that may be closer to case head/primer or just under the bullet when fired. This as the flip side benefit of not metering well. Hence I will pay the price in nuisance and use say IMR 4064 for some accuracy loads especially in gas guns.. I am often reminded of Mr. Oehler's pistol load that was supersonic with powder back and subsonic with powder forward and the fun he had with it.

That said I use measures from a Little Dandy through a Harrell's to a Quickmeasure for large stick powder loads. It doesn't get the attention it deserves but a search on this board will find a number of people who like Quickmeasure very much..

A good manual measure is approaching the electric powder thrower price range and the only drawback to those is maybe a little slower. I won't replace the Little Dandy but IF I were still competing or loading prairie dog/ground squirrel for the next day I might use two electric alternately on a progressive.

I use 15 and Varget in my .308, both shoot tiny little groups. Both outstanding powders.

Just picked up an 8lb jug of Shooters World Precision to try out.

You may need to start a thread on AR comp with 22-250. I've never tried it. Always run H4895, H380 and the like. I love AR Comp in the .223 rem (bolt guns and AR's) and 308w (ar10 and bolt guns). It is extremely consistent and I dont see weird anomalies in group pattern/dispersion when using it in all kinds of temperatures. I've ran that powder through the ringer and it's always been like a loyal dog..

It meters extremely well in my unifow as well. No baffles. Never needed them. To answer the ops question, I believe RL15 is about as close to an alternative as he's going to get to varget. They are like 2 peas in a pot, but RL15 meters much better... IMHO

I Love H-335 for .223, meters like a dream and superb accuracy. I tried Varget but got less than desireable results. I use H-335 in AR,s and bolt guns with Vmax bullets.

Lever

Alliant Power Pro Varmint is a ball powder.

YES !!!!!

For me, Varget seems happiest pushing 60 grainers and up in 223. 55 it's in the "crunchenticken" zone and depends on how it gets packed in the case and how deep the bullet needs to be seated.

Further, the kernels are pretty big for Varget and it's smart to trickle/tamp your charges, which is a pain I reserve only for special loads. Right now, my mass-charge load is 50 grain Hdy tips (zombie or red) over H4895. But I've done some other loads for friends with TAC and was impressed with how easy it was to work up, such nice flow, such consistent charges and really nice on paper, easy to get clover holes.

TAC to me is what H335 should be.

It's been stated over and over, but Ball Powder wise its TAC, 2520, 748 and similar.

Extruded its spot on RL-15 and the 4064's rates, and those powders will get the closest to Varget.

I really like AR Comp, but it more akin to the 3031's like 8208 and pretty much exchanges with velocities, pressures and powder charges with Benchmark in about everywhere you can find data with both listed for the cartridges.

I find a preference for Benchmark, H322, 3031, AR Comp IMr 4895and 4064 for heavier bullets, along with not often used in 223, but H 380...
BLC2, won't touch H335, W 748, RL 15 and RL 7... 4320 was the closest alternative for varget, But Hodgdon in their stupidity, I mean wisdom decided to eliminate it from the product list...

4320 is/was one of my favorites, it just plain works. I now use Shooters World match and it works great at a great price. But 4320 is up there with me.
Why the hell they would discontinue it is why i hate big companies. Ya we know it didn't sell, but for those of us that liked it FU big H.

In every bolt 223 I have loaded for with a 69 SMK, VV 133 was the most accurate. Loaded towards the max side with 450's.

I have kilt a train car load with good ole win748

Never have understood everybody's love for Varget. Never has been a top performer in any rifle I've tried. Always found something else that gives better accuracy.

I’ve never found it to be exceptional in anything. But the number of cartridges it’s good in can’t be refuted.

Just reading and Article on Reloader 15.5....

its new, but on testing by accurate shooter web site, it looks like everything you'd want in Varget, while being better at doing it...

8208XBR is probably the best .223 powder for anything in the 68 gr range and up. It isn't the best at metering like a ball powder, but it meters VERY good compared to Varget and RL15. I get around .1 gr variance on my Hornady LNL AP thrower. The node I worked to is about .3-.4 gr wide so it works quite well. In my AR, I'm getting more speed with 8208XBR than Varget, and I also get better temperature stability than BL(C)-2, TAC, or H335.

I have to disagree, IMR8208XBR is really quite a bit faster burning than Varget, I use them both but don't find 8208 as an alternative. the closest I have found is VihtaVuori N140. In most cases it might even work better than Varget, and right now is much easier to find and the price is not that outrageous.

I will agree with you on BL(C)2 and H335 and add H380 to be the biggest dog turds in the temp stability department

It probably is. For me, RL15 worked better than Varget. As did AR Comp. I'm wondering how similar the new RL15.5 is to AR Comp? Since that powder is unobtanium..... I also agree with AU338MAG in that I don't understand the love for Varget. It's highly overrated as far as I'm concerned.

I missed the news on this new Re15.5 stuff. I musta been busy talking when I shoulda been listening. Might work really well in the Whelen and 6mm AR. And *who knows* what else.

Varget overrated for the 55 grain range? Guess I missed that memo.

I would not necessarily consider PP Varmint a Varget alternative, but it does pretty well with 50 and 55 grain.

I have had very good luck with Ramshot X-terminator.

Yup, overrated for sure. When Vargay first came out in 96 it was pretty good stuff, changed over the years had only mediocre results since about 04. Definitely not the cats meow in 223 for 45-55 grain range, LT32 beats it hands down in velocity and accuracy. About the only good thing about Vargay is that it works, not the best by any means in just about anything. When your low on the best and want to shoot grab the Vargay.

24 grains LT32, GMM primer, Norma brass, 52 Sierra, 10 consecutive shots velocity 3450, ES 28 SD 10

Actually Varget came out in 1995 and I bought in big time, nobody had 8# jugs so I bought several cases of one pounders all from the same lot. I ran out a few years ago and found out the new Varget is not the same powder at all. Varget's downfall is when they changed the formula to "EXTREME". It might have worked well with some of Hodgdon's powder's but not with Varget.

I have never tried LT32 in my 223's since it is quite a bit faster burn rate, but have a bunch of it so I will give it a try

Same here, I love 4320. I went out and picked up 5# at a lgs that had some as soon as I found out was discontinued last year. Easy measuring, easy trickling, and accurate in almost everything I've tried it in.

I have not played with 69's too much. But i remember clearly when i did, 25.5 - 26.0 grains of W748 in WW cases shot really well from my 24 inch barrel. Seemed they liked to go just north of 2900 fps or so.

It seems in 223 Rem and 308 that if your barrel likes the bullet, it will shoot good with any reasonable powder. Powder will change the accuracy window and the velocity that window is in. To a point.....