Just got my first chronograph in 3 decades of handloading and having a little trouble understanding the data. Seems quite a bit of difference in the strings (series as Magnetospeed calls it) and wondering whats up! Same loads, same brass, same primers, same bullets, same powder and charge, all shot 15 minutes apart on same gun! Wondering how the SD and ES can be so different. Groups were pretty much the same except series 2 was a bit better.

I use a Chargermaster 1500 to trickle and weigh each load, Forster sizing and seating dies, RCBS Rock Chucker press, new Starline brass, GM205m match primers, 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip bullets (although factory seconds) and LT-32 powder. Just can't understand why each series is so different. Am I asking to much to expect SD's and ES's to be very close to each other or is this about as good as it gets? All three are accurate enough to put down varmints of a fairly small size but I was hoping to get a little better results with this combination of goodies! Seems you almost have to shoot many groups to get an average of SD and ES. I could see passing up what might be a good load by only shooting one group!

Whats you experience with your loads? Is this one good? Am I asking to much to want something a little better or maybe more consistent would be a better word?

Series 1 Shots: 5 AR 223 55 nbt LT-32 21.7
Min 2695 Max 2739 Avg 2715 S-D 15.8 ES 44
Series Shot Speed 1 1 2739 ft/s 1 2 2713 ft/s 1 3 2719 ft/s 1 4 2712 ft/s 1 5 2695 ft/s

Series 2 Shots: 5 AR 223 55 nbt LT-32 21.7
Min 2717 Max 2736 Avg 2726 S-D 8.7 ES 19
Series Shot Speed 2 1 2719 ft/s 2 2 2735 ft/s 2 3 2717 ft/s 2 4 2736 ft/s 2 5 2726 ft/s

Series 3 Shots: 5 AR 223 55 nbt LT-32 21.7
Min 2707 Max 2735 Avg 2722 S-D 11.2 ES 28
Series Shot Speed 3 1 2714 ft/s 3 2 2727 ft/s 3 3 2707 ft/s 3 4 2735 ft/s 3 5 2727 ft/s

1. 5 shot groups are not a good indicator for ES or SD. About all they are good for is velocity. If you run all 15 shots together to get a better indication of ES, SD.

2. You are about 1-1.5 grains lite on the LT32. Your velocity is about 150-200 fps slow.That powder works best at 97-98% case fill.

Ran the numbers

10 shots 2720 avg, 44 ES, 13 SD

15 shots 2721 avg, 44 ES, 12 SD

Shot to shot SD = ~12-18 fps.

Livable numbers but if you bump up the charge the ES and SD will both come down, velocity will go up.

Thanks very much! Previous testing without the chrono showed this charge grouped the best. I love the 2nd string with SD 8.7 and ES 19 and got kinda excited until I shot the 3rd string 15 minutes later! Lots to learn I guess! I'll have to try higher charges again!

Thanks alot!

Thanks Swifty! I'll give it a try! Appreciate it!!

Those are far from "bad" numbers and as stated multiple series or longer strings will tell more. I have seen instances where higher ES and SD yielded better groups than ones closer togethter. Not saying it is the norm but can happen. I wouldn't get too hung up on it as long as they are on the lower end and in many cases IMO, you can find the sweet spot when incremental increases in powder levels stop yielding average or expected increases in velocity. So as an example if velocites have been increasing by say ~75-100 FPS for each 1 grain or 1/2 grain increase in powder and your are close to upper end load and all of the sudden velos on increase by 35 FPS, then I normally see ES and SD increase as well and maybe start to see pressure signs. Just my experience and YMMV.

I am certain someone else will have varying experiences and opinions.

Thanks for the reply! Appreciate it! Seems the ticket here is experience (as in most things). This is my first use of a chrono in around 30 years of handloading. Only had the groups on paper to tell me what was good. I did get a little hung up on these numbers as I had expected the numbers to be closer together than what I got. I also thought this chrono would help me find GOOD loads faster and with less waste of powder and bullets! Something else I was wrong about! lol I'll have to go up and down the ladder again and see what the numbers tell me. I'm still hoping for an SD of less than 10 and an ES of less then 20! We'll see if I can find the sweet spot before hell freezes over!

Thanks for the time and knowledge sharing! Sure appreciate it!!

I see guys fussing around with their fancy chrono's at the range. So much in fact it messes with their shooting. One newbie handloader (you see a lot of newbies getting this kind of schidt because they are led to believe they absolutely need one) came to me last year at my clubs range and asked why his groups looked like schidt when his SD's were single digits. First I said, well you have that damn thing hanging off of your barrel, second it's a Christensen Arms, plus you think you need fancy azzed dies. And "Oh, by the way why didn't you come to the "precision" rifle shoot that you asked for at the last meeting????"

Well I did fine for around 30 years without one but this year I got 2 350 Legends for southern Michigan hunting. When I started load testing the Lil'Gun data from Hodgdon seemed awful hot, even the starting load. It made me nervous enough to spend money I probably shouldn't have to make sure I wasn't getting into dangerous territory! Never had a problem with published data before and the same Hodgdon data for H110 was fine. Anyway, I felt I should have one to stay out of trouble now and get accurate fps readings for my ballistic solvers.

Some claim that the Magnetospeed does affect poi but not groups. who knows for sure but I'll definitely find out! Thanks for the reply especially since you seem upset by anything to do with chronographs (simply going by this post of yours) or fancy dies!

Have a great day!

Lol bud you are barking up the wrong powder tree for that. LT32 was specifically designed for 65-70 grain bullets in the 6PPC. You are probably going to hit pressure before you get anywhere close to that with LT32. BTDT. This is the best I ever got out of that powder. 2 tenths over max, .4 over and things got real sporty. Shot with a Cooper 21 223, Oehler 35P for a chronograph.

OH thanks!!! You think a Nosler 64 bonded solid base would be a better choice for the powder? I knew it was designed for the 6PPC but didn't realize it was heavier bullets! Thanks!

One thing you mentioned is using Factory Seconds….. check those bullets, they are “seconds” for a reason - could be varying wts., could be in the ogive, could be variations in the actual diameter. Varying weights and slight differences in the diameter will have an affect on velocity and POI.

I should keep my mouth shut but, BSA been going through real azzhole syndrome lately. In a way though gruff as it is he’s correct. Sometimes the numbers lead you down into a rabbit hole that doesn’t lead to wonderland.

This was going to be in a different post but it’s quite fitting here. Yesterday I was doing a test on brass weight variables vs group. Again Cooper 21 223, Oehler 35P.

This group had everything going against it, random case weights of 95 grains to 100 grains. 2 different 556 cases of Norma and Federal. Now to really randomize it I loaded 3 different primers, Fed GMM, REM 7 1/2 and CCI standard.
The only thing common was powder charge and bullet. Well I removed the crimp also.
The numbers for 10 shots were not good.

Average 3252
ES 98
SD 32

But



Small group of the day. The numbers don’t support the results. Don’t get hung up on the numbers.

BOB thanks for reminding me! I to was wondering about that! I'll start checking into it! Could very well be part of it! Thanks so much!!

WOW thanks Swifty!! That sure proves a point! I'm sure glad you guys are taking the time to teach an old dog new tricks!! I got this darn gizmo to keep me out of pressure issues and am starting to get lost in the data that i don't quite get yet! If BSA was trying to say that I should maybe apologize to him! Just seemed from that one post he had a chip on his shoulder about a few things that I must have triggered.

Sure appreciate the help!!!!
I'd love to say I'd buy ya a beer sometime but I never get out of Michigan anymore! In fact the range and the doctors office is all I really get to anymore! lol

Naw you don’t owe him an apology, instead I owe an apology for hijacking your thread. He’s going to bail, loves to dish the sh*t lately. Above was a taste. Going to take me another day to correlate it all.
Use your velocity for drops, go out have fun see how I t shakes out. LT32 is a good powder.

Yes it seems like a great powder. Just wish there was data for more than just 223, 5.56 and 6ppc! But I've gotta find a good load for the Nosler 64 grain bonded solid base and 2 350 Legend rifles. Always seems to be some kind of load work to keep me busy! Appreciate the help Swifty! Thanks so much!

I've been shooting LT-32 quite a bit in the 6PPC, and I found that CCI450 primers gave me the best groups. The Hodgdon manual lists 23.1grs as max with a 55gr Hornady bullet, so you still have some room to go. Personally, I don't even get the chronograph out until I have nailed down the primer, powder charge, and seating depth a load shoots best with. I'm not going to go changing a load just to make the numbers on a chrono look pretty.

Thanks, I've been using GM205m match primers so far. Seems like 21.7 shoots the smallest groups. I just got this chronograph so I was eager to try it out and see what kind of data I got with it. Was surprised that the 3 groups weren't closer in SD and ES. If I could consistently get results like the 2nd string (sd 8.7 & es 19) I'd be very happy. First time in almost 30 years of handloading I've had a chrono to check out. I got it because 2 350 Legend rifles I'm working with seem hot with Hodgdons Lil'Gun data even at starting loads. I've always let the groups on paper tell me what to load and shoot but these 350 Legends are scaring me a little. I asked for a little help interpreting the numbers cause well I hadn't seen any chrono data before and was wondering why 3 groups shot 15 minutes apart with the same exact loads didn't do better. Fishing for knowledge I guess! I agree i wouldn't change a good shooting load to get numbers either, was just wondering why a seemingly good load didn't have good numbers. With the help I've got today I realize a load that shoots small groups doesn't necessarily have good numbers. I was also under the impression that the chrono would help to find a good load but I guess most folks (like yourself) find a shooter first then check the chrono for an fps to feed their ballistic solver.

I've learned a lot today and very happy with all you fellows that have helped!! Appreciate it!!!

Chrono's are great tools, I use them for checking velocity. I don't really give a chidt about sd's and es's. I work up loads finding OCW and let the rifle tell me what it likes. All that can be seen on the target downrange. If you can't figure that out, I don't know what to tell you... I'm not from the ghetto though. Maybe you guys do it differently down there?? I remember once pissing one of my aeronautical engineer buddies off when he talked me into running some of my loads over his fancy chrono. Wondering why my rifles shot so well/better than his. SD'S were in the single digits. He asked, "tell me what you do for a living again". Wondering how a welder could make better loads than an engineer... Its called working up the best load, based on what your rifle is telling you. One reason I always verify a load with multiple 5 and 10 shot groups. Use a good powder that is not temp sensitive and if you are really anal, use some benchrest primers with that powder... Although, in the Western powder data I have, they don't list a 55gr NBT with that powder in a 223. They do list it for lighter nosler bullets. With the 55gr NBT, I'd be running something like Vihtavuori N135, N120, CFE223 or H335, just to make things simple. And don't listen to the guys that have never ran Nosler "seconds". They don't know what they are talking about.. They shoot just like firsts..

Too many people over think this subject.....

This^^

Reading this thread reminds me of when I started reloading 50 years ago. I worried about every little thing but life got in the way so I started to simplify things so I could live with my results and still have a life. I seldom use my Pro Chrono unless I have a round I definitely plan on using for extreme uses- long range critters be it elk, deer, or rock chucks.... just so I can come up with a decent drop table. Once I get that settled within a relatively small or expected range of fps, I am happy as long as my groups are looking like I expect them to. The rest is fluff to keep you occupied while waiting for the next hunting trip IMO, but really don't change much when it comes right down to it.

When it comes right down to it, groups tell you just about everything you need to know. If you really want to know how your rifle is shooting a particular load, stretch it out a bit and shoot some 200,300,400 yard groups and see what you think... and to add to what BSA says, the Nosler seconds are absolutely excellent bullets and as good as the firsts. I've shot some really impressive groups with them that I wouldn't even post as most guys would call me a liar...

This is supposed to be fun, isn't it? Sometimes we forget that in our OCD attempt to get everything perfect....

Bob

I've shot with you buddy and I know you know what you are doing. Great post.

Here's that day when I was fu cking around. Not enough people there that time to really care:




It sounds like the op has been handloading for a long time as well, so he probably knows deep down what is right and what works. If we were all extreme long range or benchrest shooters, maybe our feelings would be different?? Now, I'm not saying low es and sd numbers aren't critical. What I was trying to get at in my prior posts is you should be able to get those low numbers by just shooting and finding a very good load. Your rifle and load will tell you that on target: By "very good", I mean extremely consistent and precise. And no, that is not that single 3 shot group fired off during load development. That's the 5 and 10 shot groups to verify. Once the load is VERIFIED, then shoot your 3 shot bragging groups if that is what floats your boat. However, shooting a one hole 3 shot 100 yard group is common place for a good consistent load and not even worth my time posting. I don't know how many thousands of times that happens in the 5 and 10 shot group strings, but it's been a lot with a GOOD load. I have OCD more than a lot here, but don't concern myself with worrying about the numbers. When I bought my old used chrono ($50) I was happy to have one to check velocities. As a matter of fact, I will be using it this week on a new to me 300 Rem SAUM. This will be to check velocities on a powder that I don't normally use and I want to be sure I'm not overpressure. Like I said before, a chrono is a very useful tool. I like to know my velocities for when I'm shooting out to 1,000-1,500 yards and then I use that useful info in the ballistic calculator.

IMO , a chronograph is most useful for making an educated guess as to what the chamber pressures might be. Once I determine what a reasonable max charge is, the chronograph gets put away and results on targets are my guide.

Well everyone has their own idea of fun! For me it's shooting followed by handloading and if I can't do either of those (I'm handicap, if it wasn't for the range officers putting up targets for me I wouldn't be able to go) it's learning about some aspect of the two. I'm also retired so I have nothing but time on my hands. I'm not worrying or sweating the numbers, I'm trying to learn from them as fast as I can since it's the first time in almost 30 years of handloading that I've seem chrono data! I've been letting the groups on paper tell me whats going on for a long time. I just started getting into 600 yard F-class practices when most of my health issues started so that's out for me now and huntings out the window also. That just leaves handloading and load testing at my local 100 yard range! I'm hoping that if I'm lucky enough to get to heaven there's unlimited ranges with unlimited loads and rifles to play with! lol

Forgot to add, the whole reason for the chrono is I got a couple of 350 Legends (in case an opportunity pops up to hunt a local farm this deer season with our silly requirements) and the Hodgdon load data using Lil'Gun seemed very hot even at the starting loads. So after all these years without one I decided to pop for one and have a way to guess at the pressures the load data was creating.

Thanks so much guys for the help and advice! I sure appreciate it!!!

No doubt you've drawn a bad hand and you're making the best of it... much respect from here... I hope my post didn't come off as critical in any way. I just know how frustrating it can be to have a chrono and the results don't line up with what you think you are seeing on the target. A lot of head scratching can lead you down a wrong road and then it just isn't fun any more. I guess that is the reason I concentrate on what my groups are telling me. Not even necessarily the precision, but often the shape of the groups will tell you a lot about your rifle, your load, and your technique. It reminds me of all the guys who buy bore scopes and then come back and post about something they found with the scope that has them concerned even though the rifle was shooting fine before the borescope.

In a lifetime you won't be able to control all of the variables in this sport and many others, but if it gives you something to fill your day and holds your interest it's probably a good thing to spend time on. Personally, I spend way too much time on the internet and not enough time lately shooting but with $5 gas I have to think about what I'm spending every time I drive the 30 miles and back to the range I use...

Keep on keeping on and don't be afraid to ask questions here. A lot of guys here have a lot of experience and can decipher your problems pretty well with a little prodding....

OH no problem Sheister! I appreciate all feedback really but it didn't seem critical to me. I sure understand about the gas and other issues. For many years I had no income at all so like anyone that handloads I used up all the "didn't work out so well" bullets and powder so I could shoot every now and then to make life a little less miserable! To young for retirement and to messed up to be able to work!

Your right about the head scratching though! I was starting to strain my little pea brain trying to decipher the numbers so I thought I should ask the collective knowledge base here! Glad I did. Realized now the numbers don't mean much except to give accurate velocities to feed our ballistic solvers! Once that sunk in to the mud between my ears I didn't feel so bad about choking on those numbers! lol Even when I was confused it was still better than TV!!

Appreciate all the help! Thanks so much!!!!

G.S.

I compliment you, with your physical limitations, about still getting out and doing things like you are, as opposed to so many who would just sit on the couch and watch TV all day and just get high or drunk. Seems to be what the local pattern is around this county. Welfare is to be thanked for that outcome.

I've always played with a lot of 'what IF?" that my head thinks up when it is doing something like, driving from point A to point B, that may take an hour or so. Our local radio stations suck, so I don't listen to the radio much... so this sort of thought process occupies my mind.

I do a lot of 'off the charts' handloading solutions to problems that really don't exist, but that comes from being raised as a military dependent, along with time I spent serving Uncle Sam myself. But when I work out something that comes together, and gives me good groups at various distances, the very last thing I do is chronographing them, just to see where the velocity is. Allows me to reference different reload manuals and compare their results velocity wise, to what I am getting from my rifles....

Perfect example of my looney-ism, is since we are under more democRat government and components become scarce once again ( although I stocked up nicely under Trump ).. what I have been playing with the last several months, is loading up 223 ammo, for bolt actions.... using 40, 50, 53 and 55 grain bullets, powered by 10 grains of Unique. That is 700 rounds out of a pound of powder. I just finished up using my first pound I have on hand... only 9 more to go before I'm out....

but I have been testing what they are capable of for distance....have been consistently ringing steel at 300 and 400 yds over at my local range.
Using it earlier this season shooting sage rats, aka ground squirrels of which Oregon has millions of... and the load was pretty consistent in ending their little tour of duty out to 200 yds pretty consistently.... using a home made rest set up, off the hood of my Toyota Pickup...

I find this stuff keeps my mind occupied....as I wait for the DNCC to be thrown out of office, so the world gets back to some normalcy.

but I still haven't put those loads under a chronograph to see my actually velocity.. something I need to get around to doing..

but then, my range time is me playing "hooky" from all the things my wife lists me to do to keep her little " just have to have" house and property in good working order so it looks pretty from the road, for all the other women who pass by... and running a business so I am always there with all the money needs, for all of her wants in life....and as she has aged, she sure wants a lot of things suddenly in life.

you enjoy your outings also kind sir. my hat is off to you for doing what you do... and not just sitting around on the couch. you are to be commended for that.

All the best,
seafire

Zooowie Batman!! 700 rounds from a pound!!! You sir are a genius!!!! Very cool!

I'm off to the range this morning again. Gotta get some loads settled on and cooked up so the family has something to defend themselves with when the civil war starts! Hope I'm still around for it but tomorrow is promised to no one! Can't stand the thought of leaving them without something to shoot back with!

Keep up the good work fella's!! And thanks again for all the help! I feel I should say, I'm handicap not disabled (yet). I can still make it to the mailbox and back (it's only 40 yards). I don't deserve any admiration, I'm just to stubborn to give up my shooting and loading! When I can't do that anymore, it'll be time to pull the plug!

Thanks again for being here and the willingness to help those of us who wish to keep learning till the end!!!
Have a great day!
Rick