What is the difference(pro/cons) between the 1:9 and the 1:12 ? What wieght bullet with what twist? Thanks

check 224 here Pros and Cons would depend on what you want to do with it.

http://shilen.com/calibersAndTwists.html

My 1:9 does great with the 40 grain Ballistic Tip, the 75 grain Berger VLD and most things I've tried in between.

A 1:12 isn't going to do that.

12" will getcha a 53X.

9" is very much on the bubble with the various75's,in a SAAMI 223...........

I know, but it's how my LTR came equipped. I tried the Berger on a lark and it worked, haven't tried the AMax.

A build would get 8", or maybe tighter, for needle chucking.

I shoot the 75A-Max with great affection in my Facory barreled LTR,punched 223AI,with the mag modded to kiss at a 2.510" COAL....at 3100fps.

In a SAAMI tube,you'll be working with less velocity,which is less RPM,which will slide you even closer to that bubble..........

My local smith wants to sell me a 7" Hart.

Better than a 9"..............(grin)

BigG, what is your intended use of the rifle? This has a lot to do with what twist you will want.

No it don't.

The 75A-Max can't be whooped...............

Crows,plinking etc.. plan on sticking with 55 to 60 grain projectiles. Just want to be sure there is no big advantage for me either way.

There ain't.

The 75A-Max is where you wanna be. For conversation I've 223AI's in 7,8,9,10,12 and 14" twist.

Go 1-8",thank me later.............

i'm running one of those 1-7" Harts on a .223 AI.

it's a good barrel, but the 1-8" Brux barreled .223 AI is my most accurate rifle

I'd go 1-8" 3-grooved PN at 21".

Hint..............

For what you'll be doing I'd use lighter bullets, 40's/50's/maybe 55's, and the 12 twist.

The 75 will do it all and slip conditions better. Were I in a straight up Crow Goo Flinging Tourney with my FX3,I'd lean 50's and more than 12" for full affect.

The 75A-Max's utility has gotta be experienced,to be appreciated................

Are you saying that a 7" will spin the Amax too fast or am I putting words in your mouth?

You are saying things I never.

1-8" is King however..............

K thx

75's have the trajectory of a 45/70...not condusive to a one shot one kill in 223 velocity...range estimation is critical.

Rifles that are twisted for 75's have longer throats also. Longer throats = shorter barrel life for the lighter bullets. You can only jump bullets so far before accuracy starts fading.

Of course, if you are a steel plate shooter, you have a lot more lee way in the accuracy department.

I agree with Keith,in a 223 shoot the 40 or 50gr at 3500 to 3800 with 12 or 14 twist and watch the feathers fly. If you want to shoot heavier slugs go to the 6Br. or 243.

keith,

You are in sooooooooooo far over your head,it's HILARIOUS.

The 75A-Max's ogive location,is all but identical to the 50V-Max. A SAAMI throat will kiss the 75 and 50 both and very nicely...lengthening same,is the last thing a guy wants to do.

A 21" 1-8" 223AI that kisses the 75A-Max at 2.450" COAL will also kiss the 50's and 40's,if one is inclined. From a 200yd zero at 2500',standard atmosphere,that loads requiresless than 27.75MOA to 1K.

Keep talking out your azz,the humor is sublime!............

Once again, you don't know your ass from third base. My 223 AI OAL is 2.328 with a 55g Ballistic tip, and that is after 1500 rounds down the tube!

You have a long throated chamber at 2.450!

Of course, you have to seat the bullet out so that you have room for powder space!

Dummy,

Where is the 75A-Max ogive's location in your throat(kissing) and what is that COAL? Of course this is where it gets silent,because you are only capable of talking out your azz.

Gettin' a kick outta your "knowledge" of powder encroachment too. You are on a roll!...............

Mr.ImitatedOften:

I agree with Keith and others on their point; the 75 gr. bullet in a fast twist [1x7-10] .223 or .223AI is traveling at a much slower FPS (3000 or less FPS range) than a 40 or 50 gr bullet in a 1X12 twist (3300-3700) .223Remington, thus the trajectory is much flatter.

This is a result of the relatively long length and weight of the 75 gr. bullet, the need to seat out further rather than in or sacrifice even more powder capacity.

The flatter trajectory of the lighter bullets (0-250 yeards) allows the owner to just do more things...AND the 1X12 will still shoot a 60 gr bullet well, always shoot the 40 gr. well, AND shoot the 70 gr. Speer SP bullet !!!

I don't hear much on the frangibilty of the 75 gr. bullets in the fast twists; an important consideration i.e. ricochet reduction when hunting in /near populated areas and farms.

So, the faster twist rifling is the best of both worlds for versatility in the .223 calibers.

What rifle were you shooting the 75A-Max in and how'd she do for you?

Laffin'.............

I don't always agree with IO's delivery, but he knows exactly what he's talking about here.

The throat required for a 75 A-Max vs a shorter bullet? Here's a thousand words with the 75 A-Max and the 50 V-Max seated to touch in my rifle. The mag box may require massaging to run a 75, but not the throat.



As far as long range trajectory, go back and read what IO said again.

In my 1-8 twist 223AI, I get 3050 with the 75 A-Max and 3600+ with the 50 V-Max. Want an education? Run those numbers in your trajectory program and see which one shoots flatter.

And frangibility of the 75 A-Max? You have to see it to believe it, it will seriously mess stuff up.

Don't be stealin' my thunder...I was reeling in a whole herd of Dummies at once...............(grin)

Fair nuff, want me to delete?

Enough remains,to hook more than a few...if'n they can muster the courage................(grin)

My .22's all have 0 freebore. In the .223/.223AI case....... a 50VMax seated just kissing the lands is one boattail length below the neck/shoulder junction. I don't use 75's, but I'd guess in that chamber one of those bullets would be seated pretty well down into the case.

You said to run the trajectory numbers and see which shoots flatter, so I did. In my .223, velocity is 3640 with a 50....velocity in the .223AI is 3825. Trajectory under conditions where I shoot.....6500', 80*F, with 225yd zero......the 75 drops -4.6@300, -15.4@400, [email protected] 50 from a 223AI drops -3.2@300, -11.3@400, and -24.8@500. At 700yds the 50 has 14" less drop. Wind drift is a different thing, but you said "flatter."

I'm not saying 50's are a good bullet for targets at 700yds, or even good for 500yd targets. And arguing about what bullet to shoot is pretty silly. People should use whatever they want. Doesn't matter to me, shouldn't matter to anyone.

3825fps with a 223AI,is a 50gr PIPE Dream...though I like my 75's at 3150fps...............

Not a pipe dream. Believe it or don't believe it, makes no difference.

WoooHooooooooooo...fish on!

Say a little sumptin' about your "Magical" Rifle...........(dare ya')

Very curious to see how far Ackman will lie her way out on the limb? She's on Record pace,currently.

I bet she don't say anything about the Imaginary Rifle's particulars,because even she knows better..............

IO, I shoot the 50's at 3800 in my rifle, IMI brass, CCI BR4's, N-133 in a 14 twist, 27 inch barrel. 3800 is not the max, but I don't like full length sizing brass. I can squeeze another 50 fps out of the case, but why? Hart stainless barrels are on both my 223 AI's that have zero freebore, .2245 throat, 1 1/2* leade angle, .250 non turn neck, minimum SAAMI dimensions on body.

Likewise, I shoot the 55's at 3650 with N 135, same 27" barrel.

Groups with the 50 and 55's are in the high 2's.

The 23" barrel is 100 fps slower than the 27", don't know if it's added length or just difference in barrels.

Benchmark, H335, H322 will not get the above velocities, nor will a fast twist barrel, it takes a lot of energy to twist a bullet and the result is higher pressures and a slight loss of speed. Only N133 with the 50's and N 135 with the 55's give these velocities, and accuracy is on the level of the 6PPC's that I have.

I think that Brad posted pics of the 75 and 50, it is what we call a long leade in that chamber. I'm guessing that You probably have .140 freebore in that chamber. 0.140 is equal to about 2500 rounds of shooting in leade growth, perhaps more.

These are not intended to be 1000 yard rifles to shoot steel plates with, they are live varmint rifles.

IO, you indeed have the correct set up for dinging steel at 1000 yards, and also to kill a deer/hogs with. 60g Nosler partition in an 8 twist would blow a good hole in a deer.

You idiots crack me up! Here's a few 223AI's.

Too funny!..............







[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/LVSF_Punched_Out_223AI.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/Nottoobad.jpg[/img]

My bad...double tapped one...........

QL says it takes about 82K psi to get a 50 to 3800 via N133 and a 27" tube punched AI...

8 or 16, stella or zebco
ronco perhaps

In fairness,my 1-7" Rock isn't pictured and I'll be shooting a new Montucky 223AI when I get home.

But you get the picture.............

No magic and not imaginary and you know that. I've been through this before with other people......also with you. Using a different name doesn't make you clever. After more than 41000 posts, it's time you outgrew trying to be the bully. Stop with the drugs or drinking or whatever it is that fuels your bigmouth tantrums.

Anyone who even cares about my "magic" "imaginary" rifle can send a PM and I'll be happy to tell them.

Had forgotten about The Secret Squirrel Society...too funny!...........

IO, what do you think about the 75 scirocco's out of the AI? How do they compare trajectory wise to the amax?

Their BC isn't as slick(I factor it as a .4),so they won't quite keep pace,though their integrity really is excellent.

Shoot more of them in 22-250AI................

RickF,
I don't have a ballistics program--would you mind sharing the highlights of the amax at 3050 vs the 50 vmax at 3600 comparison?

JBM is your friend.

LINK.................

Quick and dirty, zeroed 1" high at 100 yards like a varmint rifle might be...

50 V-Max at 3600, then 75 A-Max at 3050:

300 -6" -8"
400 -19 -22
500 -42 -43
600 -80 -73
700 -140 -116
800 -227 -172
900 -348 -247
1000 -506 -345

If you jack the 50 up to 22-250 velocities and stop counting at mid-range, you can make the 50 look flatter. But you don't buy long, pointy bullets to stop shooting at 500 yards.

I hear good things about them 75's..............

Yeah, my 14 twist luvs em. Oh wait...

Laffin' how numb nuts and all her "experience",so missed throating,COAL and well...EVERYTHING else.

Too funny!................

It does amaze me that even WITH the pic he still couldn't figure out throating relationships with the two bullets, after me saying they were both seated to touch in the same rifle. ??

Still wondering...the 75 "requires long throating since that bullet is so long". The 75 "must be seated too deeply" and eats up all that powder space. They must think the thing is a javelin! Must be all that freebore I've got in my rifle that makes it work??

She was/is in well over her head..............

Yeppers, those are long throats. Long throats will work for a while for the 50's, but you will be stuck with the 75's after a while because the 50's will not shoot well as soon as they start to jump.

Rick, you did not plug in our velocity of 3800 for the 50's, groups in the low 2's with our 14 twist 223 AI's. In our custom 223's, we shoot the 50's at 3600 with IMI brass, 7 1/2", 26" 14 twists, N133. Rick, I design all my own reamers, fully understand throats. I was one of the very first if not the first to shoot the Hart 8" twist with the Berger 105's in 1990 at registered benchrest matches. Later, I built two 22 PPC's with 9" twists and a Benchrest custom AR with a 9" twist to try and win a $500 trophy that the NBRSA was offering to anyone that could agg a .250 in a registered match. I could agg .285 but not lower, would have gotten the trophy if Bill Wylde had put a 1-14 twist on the rifle.

If you think that I should be impressed or intimidated with those rifles, I used to order McMillens 10 at a time to get the Dealer discount. If you had 20 of them laying out there, it still would be no big deal.

If you had 50 of them laying out there, you are beginning to get into the relm of Ackman's world.

I think that we will start calling ImitatedOften, "Satin's Disciple" because he spews nothing but hate and venom.

IO, you diminish this board with all your hate.

Dummy,

Satin is a fabric.

For conversation and because you are talking out your azz(because it's the ONLY thing you can do)...50's shoot exceptionally in a throat that kisses the 75A-Max at 2.515". If only because I have one(Factory throat too).

You shoot your mouth and that's it................

Satan's Disciple spews his venom again!

If facts are "venom",there's lots of it.

Best put your spew hat on and goggles too..............

Do you ever wonder what Rick Bin and his wife think of your ranting on a site they have worked hard to develop?

How about the advertisers, think they want to invest money in a site that allows posters to spew hate all over the world?

Keith, not interested in spewing venom but have a couple thoughts.

First, my rifle most assuredly doesn't have a long throat. The COL for the 75 A-Max to touch is 2.464". For the 50 V-Max, 2.313". I hope you know that difference is from the ogives. How does that compare to the COL's you like to run?

Second, I'm happy to plug in any velocity you want for your 50 grain load. But to compare apples to apples we need an equivalent velocity for the 75 A-Max. That is what I did, used velocities worked up to what appear to be similar pressures in a rifle I own. It is a 22 1/2" 8 twist. For what it's worth, that little #1 contour rifle averages about 0.4" with the 50 V-Max, and better than that with the 75 A-Max.

To compare to your 3800 fps load, we need "what?" for a speed in the 75. 3250? Work up the load and we can compare.

Anybody that shoots,even a little...is laughing at you!

"Super Star"..................

At least chuckling and shaking their head...

Badass. Thanks.

IO, you ever fool with TAC/75amax/223ai? Just getting started with the AI and wonder if I'm on the right track.

True, but you didn't even have the grace to post a 10 mph wind......

The secant ogive, a throating contradiction, partly truth and partly fiction....

Nah, but I'm sure you can do it "gracefully" We were, after all, talking "flatter".

Not IO, don't even pretend to be, but this is my results.

In my 22 1/2", 8 twist rifle using WW brass, CCI400's and sans moly I got the following:

25.5 = 2970 fps
26.0 = 3020 fps and stupid small groups, as in 0.35" or so at 100 yards.
26.5 = 3090 fps but groups were a bit larger and pressures had to be getting up.

With the 26.0 grain load, primer pockets lasted forever so I called it load complete. That load, in your rifle, may of course blow your ass up so be sure to work up.

With the 50 I prefer H335, but with the 75 TAC wins. RL15 and H335 are good, but I got more consistent velocities with TAC.

Wow. I really need a chrony. The ramshot guys gave me 23.9 max for the ai.

Would you go with an 8" on a .22/250 re-barrel also?

Yup and go AI...
Rem 700 action squared and lugs lapped
24" Douglas chrome moly 1:8 barrel fluted Rem Mag contour
Matte Blued along with receiver
Trigger already adjusted by me
LVSF gray web tactical stock

Depends. What bullet weights do you want to be able to shoot? It you want the ability to go heavier, then yes. If the heaviest you will ever want to go is a 50 or 55, then a 12 is fine.

Truth is, there's no down side to the 8 twist though.

FF loads with 50gr V-max, no down side to 1:8 is correct...

I would not dream of building a centerfire .22 with a twist not capable of spinning the 75's. The 1-8" is just too flexible.

It's true, you don't buy long bullets to stop at 500. But I wonder about those numbers. The Pact Pro has a ballistic program built in. Running the two identically and changing only BC and velocity, mine come out very different.

6500', 80* temp, 225 zero, etc.....
Drop......
-----50@3825(223AI)...50@3640(.223)....75@3150
225 Zero..........................................................
300..... -3.2........................-3.6....................-4.2
400...... -11.3.....................-12.8..................-14.3
500...... -24.8..................... -27.9.................-30.0
600...... -44.9..................... -50.7.................-52.0
700...... -73.5......................-83.0.................-81.4

Those .223 case velocities aren't jacked up, they're accuracy, everyday loads through a Shilen/223 and a Schneider/223AI, both 14twist.....IMI brass, AA2015 and VV133 powder.

The 223AI chamber has 0 freebore, 1.765" long - .010" past case length, .250"nk.
I don't normally pay attention to COAL, but with 50VMax seated to lands it's 2.262" overall. You have quite a bit of freebore, shooting longer bullets you need it.

A 60VMax is .120" past the neck/shoulder and down into the case. I've no 75's and don't know how far down they'd seat. These guns usually shoot either TNT's or BlitzKings, mostly BK's. Depends on what the targets will be. The BK/BT/Vmax have better BC. At the lands a TNT seats only .110" into the neck, a BK goes about 2/3 way down.....that's with no freebore. Add freebore to get a 60VMax all the way up into the neck and the TNT wouldn't come close to finding any lands. The BK would be way out there. Long freebore with 40's there'd be no hope and going 4100-4200 those things shoot real flat.

Those numbers up there are drop only. I've never said lighter bullets are for longer distances or that they handle the wind as well.....I don't care to shoot varmints at even 500yds with a 223 cased round. I'm just questioning your numbers. And as I said before, people shoot what they want it doesn't matter. There's no one right way, even though some like to make everything into a mine's-better-than-yours-I'm-smarter-than-you pissing match.

And I'm not one of them, there's room for everybody's pet theories and toys in this game.

Those numbers came from the online JBM program, at 0 degrees and 0 sea level. Our altitudes and ambient temps are very different; except for one sheep I don't think I have ever hunted at 80 degrees.

I've wondered about that too. Maybe it's someone creating a false superiority complex to hide self hate or a miserable existence, maybe it's drugs or booze, maybe all of them, doesn't matter. As website owner or advertiser I wouldn't like some bigmouth a-hole posting 30 times/day, more than 31,000 times, monopolizing every thread, boasting how smart he is and how wrong/stupid people are who don't do as he does. You gotta wonder about someone like that.

I know you're not, and I wasn't referring to you.....it was about how so many threads wind up.



With 223-cased rounds we mostly shoot small critters and like to see them blow up.

Dummy,

At the 400yd line,the 75 already has the retained velocity advantage(from muzzle velocities: 3150 75's/3750 50's) and nearly 50% of the drift...as well as 50% more "energy"(1033 ft lbs vs. 685). The 75's terminal affects are already SMOKING the 50's,well inside 400 and it of course gets very ugly from there. In fact,the 400yd 75's WHACK,exceeds the 50's at 200 and by quite a margin.

Now I realize you are too stupid and in well over your head from start to finish,all the while busy making schit up at the same time,but them is FACTS.

They do nice things on Critters too and rest assured that ain't a guess either.................

IO, what powder do you like for the 223ai/75amax?

Yeah yeah. More from Often Irritated. More about you being so smart, blah blah. Guess I'm too dumm to know what the schit is that you say I'm making up. But not dumm enough to think it takes 1033ft lbs to kill a 2lb rodent.....and you're not quite smart enough to know that 685ft lbs will blow the crap out of it. Them is facts. So who's the dummy.

Your math's not quite there either.......50/3825 and 75/3150..... 400yd drift 50=12.5", 75=8.5.....that 4" for the 50 is 50% more....and 8.5 is 2/3 of 12.5. My 10yr old grandson knows that stuff but it's over your head. You're a joke.

Me bein' so dumm and all, maybe I should start imitating you. Yeah, grow a silly 70's style fu manchu mustache and be really cool. Then park myself on a forum and post 30 times a day. Tell people they're stupid. When the total reaches 31,000 or so, start being an ass under a different name. Imitate you.

Again.....doesn't matter what you shoot. Doesn't matter what anyone shoots. Knock off your adolescent bs.

Dummy,

It's "dumb" not dumm,though you're at the mercy of your IQ and that glaring lapse crosses over well into your 223AI "experience" and "knowledge".

Feel free to elaborate(as only can),in how increased impact velocity and rotational velocity,becomes a terminal "disadvantage". What is well beyond obvious,is that you've never seen or shot a single 75A-Max. To frost that cake nicely,you thoroughly botched all things pertaining the chambering proper and that from stem to stern. Pretty impressive that COAL,throating,speed,ballistics,the effects of twist and all else you've contrived in the darkened shadows of your empty brain,were poignantly amiss.

I know 50gr V-Max comeups a whole bunch better than exceptionally well and needn't guess,as you are forced to. All ears on how 8.5 divided by two(50%) isn't 4.25"...which is rather akin to 4"?!!? 4"+8.5" has been known to equal 12.5"...I now know where your grandson gets his "special" mathematical gift and the lineage is none too flattering.

Now you've got me wondering,how many of your eyes are crossed?.....................

Go sober up.

Popcorn. With Butter!
The North Star Republic's Very Own Has Returned. Or is Outside at a new ISP for a while.
I'm not telling, tho, this is like old times.

Your a quick one

ackman thats funny 70s style fu manchu mustache grin

Not everyone can rock a killer 'stache,but those that can,are able to catch alotta fish with one. Let's hope Ackman is brave enough to hang up a picture of herself,to lend full appreciation to her numerous plights. I'd wager that even a casual glance,would reiterate why she's unable to get a single thing right.

Let's bait a hook for her,in a daring sort of way.

Puns intended................

Damn dats big!Very nice!

If you knew bigstick, you'd know that a chicken 'but....Those chihuahua's he poses with look like full-size deer with him in the pic.
Nice mustache...ever heard the term 'compensating'?

You see alot of those 'killer staches' on TV coverage of the gay pride parade.

Guess you watch the parade to know such titillating fact

I'm man enough to watch and not feel threatened.
I'm man enough to be clean-shaven and not worry about whether people consider me maculine.
Busheler is neither.

It'd be hard to slight your taste in men,if only because I cast quite a shadow. You'll have to try 3rd grade again,to see if you can perhaps spell the words that you fantasize about,such as being "maculine". Until then,you've your SuperSoaker,job at the drive-thru and Field & Stream...to satiate your Realities.

Good luck on reaching Puberty..................

Imitatedoften, you having dilusions about being 6'6" again?

PS.

That Shadow you are seeing is your girl friend's.

Fixed it for ya!
Busheler, you crack me up!
When you going back on PP?
There's a fanboy back there missing you.

Just an ugly person with an enormous Little Man complex.

My popcorn is cold.
And it's MASCULINE WITH AN "S," please.

For more information on the subject,and less bluster.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/March_2009.html

Anyone tried the 60gr Nosler Ballistic Tip ... how did it perform out of interest?
Cheers...
Con

i use the 60 grain Nosler BTs to fireform brass in my .223 AIs and for a play bullet in my Kimber Montana. i like them ok.