Hi Guys.
1st post from a relatively new reloader from the UK.
I shoot rabbits and the occasional fox and I love my CZ527 17 hornet with a Hardy MkV moderator to bits but even head shot rabbits are too damaged. I'm wondering about the feasability of low loading my 17 hornet to subsonic speed for the rabbits. The aim is to find a round that is as quiet as my 1417 Annie 22lr but with more reach with the ability to reload.
I have 17gr and 20gr Vmax bullets and I've been reading good things about using Trail Boss for slow loads. Any advice will be gratefully received. I'm almost sure it's doable but I'd sure like someone to confirm it.

Thanks.

toxo,

Welcome to the Campfire!

I've tried Trail Boss in the .17 Hornet, using Hodgdon's formula: Fill a case with TB to to the base of the bullet, weigh that powder charge, then using 70% as a starting load. The case held right around 5 grains of powder to the base of a 20-grain Hornady V-Max, so I tried 3.5 grains (70% of 5.0 grains). Accuracy was pretty good, 5-shot groups averaging well under an inch at 50 yards, but muzzle velocity from the 22-inch barrel of my CZ was 1723 fps--far above subsonic.

Hodgdon does NOT recommend reducing the starting load, but it might be subsonic with 30-grain bullets--if you can find any over there. The rifling twist in .17 Hornet barrels, one turn in 9 inches, is enough to stabilize 30-grain Berger hollow-points at 2900 fps, but I don't know about 1100 fps--or if 3.5 grains of Trail Boss would result in subsonic muzzle velocity. I doubt it, but you never know.

Thanks John.

Nice reply.

Doesn't have to be subsonic but I shoot a lot at night so any reduction in noise would be good. Are there any other powders recommended for low loading?

I do have a couple of hundred Berger 30gr hp that I can try but would love to develope the 17gr because they're cheap as chips.

Am using LilGun at the moment with lots of space inside the case. Would a filler be advisable with this little case? Is using a filler with a moderator/suppressor advisable?

Frustrated at the moment cos the van is in the shop so not getting out much to try different things or buy powders. Can't get powders & primers through the mail over here.

Thanks again.

Paul

I don't think a filler would be necessary in such a small case, but that's just a guess. Fillers can also hang up inside suppressors, unless they're something that burns up with the powder.

You might try a very light charge of fast-burning pistol/shotgun powder. In the .223, for instance, 4.0 grains of Blue Dot and a jacketed 40-grain bullet is usually subsonic, and doesn't require a filler.

Once I get my wheels back I'll go get some different powder. At the moment I've only got LilGun and started of using 9gr with a 20Gr Vmax and then the same 9gr when I got some 17gr bullets. Both are ok but not chronoed.

Only just learned about fillers and that a full case is beneficial. Haven't had a proper measure but I don't think 9gr even fills half the case. What filler material burns to nothing in the barrel?

What I'd really like to know is low can I go with what powder before the 17gr bullet doesn't come out of the barrel?

The 17gr bullets I'm using are Vmax boat tails that apparently have been pulled from failed hmr so I know the bullet is good for hmr speeds but can I get it to go any lower. Maybe a pipe dream but it'll be fun trying. Can't wait until I can get out all day with a bench and the Chrony F1.

Paul

Any danger of pressure spikes with below recommended loads?

I have no idea Jim. I'm new to reloading. That's why I'm asking these questions. I have a logical mind and it's asking the question - can I have a quiet round for night time bunnies that reaches out to 100/120yds ish? Where do I find the answer to your question?

I have nothing to contribute to your discussion regarding the .17 Hornet. What I can contribute is a general warning concerning fillers in cartridges using tiny charges of fast burning propellants. It is strongly suggested that when one uses fillers, they fill the entire air space between powder and bullet base. To use less than that is to create a secondary projectile inside the case which when impinging on the base of the bullet can introduce a ring in the chamber at that point. Not a guarantee, and won't happen every time, but is nonetheless a documented phenomenon.

As some here may know, my main passion is low velocity cast bullet loads in centerfire cartridges. I have experimented with various fillers to a fare-thee-well and have come to the conclusion that they are more of a hassle than a benefit, and am going through life without them with no discernible handicap. Your mileage may vary, that's my personal observation.

How would a grain or so of Bullseye/231/Clays/Red Dot work in this situation?

I would think that a pistol powder would be better suited to this than a real low charge of a rifle powder.

No experience though........never been one to down load.

Interesting questions though.

Hows about a 17M2 with a suppressor??????

Well, here is a load work up chart i did with Alliant STEEL shotgun powder.






These were the safe ranges for my gun, with 3-4 grains of powder getting a good neck seal when firing.

During the test i worked up to 6.8 grains of STEEL powder, this gave me a sticky bolt lift.

These Loads were safe in my gun, your mileage may vary

That's excellent work. Thanks for sharing it.

Seafire is a great source for subsonic loads in various calibers. I hope we see him stop by and weigh in on the subject.

John's on a road trip to visit one of our "Fire members who isn't doing real well. Hopefully he'll chime in with news about our friend and on this subject.

Ed

Thanks.

Did some reduced loads with Bluedot and 17 Hornet.






So far that's it.

These loads were safe and no pressure signs. You have to start at 3 grains to get proper neck seal pressure.

Safe in my gun, your mileage may vary

Sorry Guys. Only just seen these replies. Don't know why I've not been getting notifications.

Some great stuff there. Thank you.

Someone pointed me to a very useful JBM ballistic calculater which suggests that the little 17gr Vmax bullet may well be stable below the speed of sound in a 1;9 barrel


According to JBM ballistics the 17gr 17vmax (the 17hmr bullet) is still stable @ 1000 fps. (1.311)

Stability
The Miller stability value. It should be between 1.3 and 2.0 to ensure stabilty (the military uses 1.5).

Still no wheels to go get powder. Good job my shooting buddy gets me out once a week or I'd be going crazy.

I'd look at Titegroup or Bullseye...

but I wonder if they would even be available in Britain...

That's interesting Seafire. So you're advocating something in the faster range rather than slower? I'm a novice at this and don't know the specifics of these powders but should I be looking for something with bulk to it to fill the case? Trail Boss has been mentioned for this reason. All very frustrating because I can't ask around for powders until I know what to ask for.

Powders don't need to fill the case for reliable ignition, depending on how fast their burn rate is...

Pistol and shot gun powders are what is commonly the most effective in low velocity loads...

but it is common that many people prefer to fill the case, with a powder, to prevent a double charge.
it does take some discipline and common sense at the load bench...its not for people who
really don't know what they are doing...

however is small cases, you can actually accomplish the same thing with slower burning powders.
they will be low pressure due to the burn rate of the powder.. and may not seal the neck as referred to
by lanenebraska above.

if you want to go that route, start out with something in the 4895 burn rate, and if that doesn't do the trick
use slower powders, like 4320, H 414....Sorry, not familiar with European powders.. so I have no numbers to
suggest for that...

access to a chronograph is very helpful for figuring out the velocity of your rifle in particular..

The key is you don't want something so slow, that the bullet doesn't leave the barrel and is stuck in it.

I don't own a Hornet, 17 or 22 version, otherwise I could help you out more..

all of this just takes a little common sense and thought.... but many people don't like to do
loads unless they see it in print in a book or someone else does all the testing for them..

These are decisions you have to make yourself on what you are comfortable with... as no one else
has control of what someone else does on their load bench.. so it falls down to the reloaders personal
responsibility....

but subsonic will be easier to accomplish in my opinion and experience with a faster burning pistol/shotgun
powder than slower powders to fill the case... but that takes more discipline and paying attention to what one
is doing.....

Well said.

Thanks again Seafire. Learning all the time. Not afraid of putting the work in. Retired now so when I'm mobile again I'll make progress quickly but only getting out once a week for a limited time and that's at night for hunting.

I guess it won't hurt to try diminishing LilGun loads dropping .2 at a time. I'll be very wary of getting one stuck in the barrel.

I hear what you're saying bout double loading. Years ago I'd have said not possible but these days a system will definitely be needed. Beginning to go into a room and wonder why I went in there. I guess the best way to avoid is to set up another press and seat the bullet straight away.

I can see why most of the data is for max loads for more accuracy and longer ranges but not required in my case. I'm happy shooting rabbits out to 150yds.

I use 4 gr of N310 with a 20gr V max in the 17AH. Great accuracy at about 2500fps. That load came out of the Varmint Hunter magazine in a article by McPherson