I bought a rifle from a seller here the end of February, great transaction, rifle was as advertised, great communication,

UNTIL.....

My FFL dealer needs a copy of a FFL or drivers license to complete the transaction. I realize FFL rules do not require this, but due to New York State law, and the local sheriff, etc... my dealer wants his ass covered.

I PM'ed the seller on 2/28, explained the situation, he said he'd send out his paperwork.

Never arrived, no explanation.

PM sent to him again on 3/14, and again on 3/15 asking for updates. Both PM's were read, not responded to.

I'm at a loss here. Why the sudden lack of communication? I really thought this was a great transaction up until recently.

Suggestions please.....

Please NY, what specific law is your FFL trying to satisfy? NY State law? City Law? Sheriffs Law? Can your gunshop show you? My understanding has been that if you satisfy ATF with the transfer, it is finished. FWIW.

Wish I could be of help, had the same situation arise with one I was buying. Some like doing transactions to remain as anonymous as they can. May just not want his info put down in the books. I have sold many guns on the net and occasionally run into FFL's that want something after the sale that is really their own deal, not a BATF thing. In that case I have complied but really I didn't have to. Talk with both the dealer and the seller, the reason the seller hasn't responded may be because its in the mail already. If the dealer is outside the rules, he can't really expect anything more from you or the seller. If they want something they should ask for it before they give you a copy of their FFL or agree to have the rifle sent to them, after the fact is a little late. Just my 2 cents and get you back to the top. Ryan

Strange...but sometimes sellers don't want to put in any extra effort once the deal is closed. Or, some people are very protective of their privacy.

So, as I understand it, the seller has his funds, you (or your FFL) have the rifle, but there is documentation that is lacking. Seeing as you may not receive any further communication from the seller, you might ask your FFL if the seller's name and address on the shipping container, a copy of the tracking information from UPS/USPS/FexEx, and a copy of the original ad from this forum would be enough to document the source of this rifle for his books.

Or does NY law really require a copy of the driver's license or FFL?

Ask to see the law in NY he's trying to satisfy. If it doesn't exist, he has to go through with the transaction.

If it's a long gun, your FFL is likely being OVERLY precautious because there'd be no FFL form from the shipper; it's not needed. I suspect the driver's license copy is also just overly precautious, but double check that to make sure.

Remember we are talking New York State here where a certain shrill carpet bagger is a Senator!

Yeah, but we're still talking about federal regs on shipments of firearms and sales.

While that is an unfortunate truth, U.S. Senators typically have no influence on STATE laws...

No doubt but that the dealer should have made his needs, or desires, made known a touch earlier.

Actually both Senators are worthless gun-grabbers.

I believe my FFL is merely dotting his i's and crossing his t's so to speak. He is a small one man shop and that's just the way he does business. I can understand his caution with local law enforcement and the town/county being the way they are.

To ne fair I didn't specify when I bought the rifle that I'd require a DL or FFL, but the seller cheerfully agreed to provide one after the fact.

It's been the lack of communication since he agreed to do so that's been frustrating.

I would have to agree with your political assessment, though I might not rate them quite that highly.

Just one more reason I live in Alaska...

Hope your guy comes through for you.

Maryland has the same law. when ordering or buying a firearm on line I make this clear to the seller..but I guess if it arrived w/o it i would be in a Jam. I would try to to work it out, but if he wouldn't cooperate i would find some way to resove even if it meant getting in aairplane and knocking at his door.

I have used several different dealers here and they have all had this requirment...so i don't think it is just the dealer covering his butt.

LC

I guess I could see where a guy could agree to send the info and then have second thoughts. The Census Bureau says I'm going to jail cuz I wouldn't answer their silly survey. We'll see.
I would however tell you I wasn't sending the info and why though. Just like I did with the Census Bureau.

Rich

I ran into the same deal as a seller on an online auction. After the deal was made and I sent the rifle the person said his FFL said the same thing that he wanted a copy of my DL. I said no way, it is not a requirement. His FFL refused to turn over the rifle to him. I called the FFL and he said that is just the way he did business. I grudgingy faxed a copy only so the guy could get his gun. In the future I don't think I would sell to someone where I was required to give a copy of my driver's license. That is pretty personal with my picture and everything to be sending to a stranger in another state. We have very little information privacy in this country as it is.

Even if he's had second thoughts some communication on his part would be nice.

Not for nothing , but unless you could show me where it was written law , I would not send it either. I just baught a long gun from a member here and my FFL guy here on Long Island did not require any of that documentation from my seller and that was just this past friday.

That was me and I appologize for letting that slip. I have no problem sending the letter, I've just been super busy and that's my fault. I don't recall the PMs you said you sent on 3-14/15. If I did, I'd reply, not duck you over a photocopy and 39 cent stamp. I'll try and find the note with your FFL's info in my pile of To Dos but if you PM it again, it might save some time.

As you stated, the transaction went great, so if it were me, I'd give someone a little more benefit of the doubt over something "clerical" before I posted something like this (insinuations that I'm ducking you) in the Classifieds....

You were given the benefit of the doubt when I e-mailed twice. I was not insinuating, you read both e-mails and I recieved no reply. That was not "clerical". Too busy to mail a photocopy, perhaps. Too busy to extend the courtesy of a return PM, no. Curious how you weren't too busy to reply now.

As I've stated, transaction was perfect. Communication leaves much to be desired.

I would buy a rifle from Nebraska in a New York minute! I have ben reading Nebraska's post here at the Campfire for over a year and I would say he is first class..Please give the man a chance to make it right.
RL..

The "Clerical" comment is directed at your FFL's personal policy.

I said insinuating and now you're saying I'm a liar!! I just got done cleaning out my PMs must have accidentally deleted yours. I didn't and wouldn't intentionally dodge you or anyone else even if it was a BIG F-up, much less over a request for a photocopy!!

Yankees.............

Ny, Not trying to fuel this more, I would like to ask a question if I may and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but here goes. Did your FFL guy charge you a handling fee or a surcharge over and above his transfer fee for the rifle? Just curious. Steve

Yankees!!

The law does not even require the buyer to send an FFL to the seller.......

Most dealers will not do a transfer unless there is a copy of a license going both ways. It is the only real safe way of doing business. The dealer also needs a place of origin to enter a firearm in his bound book. You can go to fflezcheck and check a ffl number online to see if it is legit. The fine and time just ain't worth the chance.

BTW - thanks.

Relax and drink a soda.

BTW - Even though every fiber of my being wants to mail a photocopy of "something" other than my ID now, I'll still send the copy you need when I either get the information via PM again or find it in my paperwork.

That being said...the next time someone cheerfully agrees to help you with a problem you have (after the fact), and you run into a communication breakdown, MAYBE think about doing like I've seen others do and start a thread with their name (i.e. NEBRASKA) and post the simple question - "Did you get my PM?" and give them a chance to respond without questioning their character. If you did that you would've got a "No. I must have deleted it. Geeez, I'm so sorry, I know you've been waiting. That's my fault - I dropped the ball. I'll get on it ASAP!!" response instead of unnecessarily burning a bridge.

Just a thought...

That's not required though and adds extra expense to the transaction. If I were buying from a dealer then they might ask for that documentation but when buying from an individual, they never have. I have two dealers I work with on this side of WI and neither have ever asked for such a thing. I have also sent a couple of long guns out and those dealers never asked for anything that wasn't on the return address label of the package.

Just causin' a ruckus!!

I'd love to but I'm done (unless NY can't pull his head out in which case I'll have to copy my "ID" after everyone's gone home for the evening ).

Just blame it on the devil and try to get away with it. Or bulley your way through it. Or someone could just apoligise. I just don't know who to give this advise to.

State laws can be more restrict than federal laws but not more lenient..if you don't beleive me check MD handgun laws..

That being said...the next time someone cheerfully agrees to help you with a problem you have (after the fact), and you run into a communication breakdown, MAYBE think about doing like I've seen others do and start a thread with their name (i.e. NEBRASKA) and post the simple question - "Did you get my PM?" and give them a chance to respond without questioning their character. If you did that you would've got a "No. I must have deleted it. Geeez, I'm so sorry, I know you've been waiting. That's my fault - I dropped the ball. I'll get on it ASAP!!" response instead of unnecessarily burning a bridge.

Just a thought... [/quote]


100% Right Here is a link..
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...&topic=0&Search=true#Post1193926

Exactly. Thanks again....

RL, good advice. I know Nebraska had recieved both PM's as the new system shows which messages have been read/unread.

Ever think he might have just deleted a bunch of PMs? That, would also show them as being "read", even if there weren't actually so.

Out of the couple dozen or so shootin' irons I've sold and shipped off to parts unknown I've had to provide only one DL copy. To a guy in Wisconsin if I recall. Thankfully my FFL guy doesn't have his head up and require that of incoming guns.

This thread was totally unnecessary............

Wouldn't know Nebraska from Moses but I'd buy from him in a heartbeat, even though he's probably a lowly husker fan.

Exactly! I made the mistake just last week.

OCC,

The tune fires me up!

About a month ago I sent a rifle to a poster/FFL in KS with no DL or other ID. No problem.

Last week I got a rifle from a guy in PA and he has a copy of his DL in with the rifle. My FFL guy said that was good because he needed it.

Obviously something has changed recently...but what?

Just another hoop to jump through and be aware of when communicating with buyers/sellers.

You guys are ruff... How can he avoid addressing that if it keeps comin' up???

Gotta head down to the bank now so I can withdrawl a quarter, dime and four pennies for the stamp. I'm gonna pack my Glock though as I'm just not comfortable carrying that kinda cha-ching....

I along with many others here have had numerous pleasant and professional transactions for guns/scopes with Nebraska, he has always been "FIRST CLASS", and I would highly recommend doing business with him. So lighten up and believe in our folks here and the good guy list. Anyone can have a detail slip through the crack, always give our folks the benefit of the doubt. Dick

This is a pet peeve of mine� everyone should know their FFL rules before purchasing any type of firearm over the Internet that has to be shipped. This has happened to me several times, where a guy buys a gun from me and then calls me and says he needs a copy of my dealers FFL. I ask why since my dealer didn�t ship the gun and they say it has to be from dealer to dealer.

It�s always good to know these things after the gun is at the transferring dealers address� duh!!!!

This has happened to me twice when shipping to Texas so its not all Yankees.

Cliff, I have a question about your statement, if the receiving FFL does the paperwork, calls in the transaction and gets an approval for the buyer, what could be the potential problem. I am curious about this. Thanks Steve

For whatever it's worth, my FFL (who's a friend btw) now requires a DL with a gun shipment. As Cliff said, he needs it to document the origination somehow. He says he requires the same thing if you walked in his shop and sold him the gun in person. He also told me more and more of the dealers he knows are requiring it to cover their A$$ with the ATF. He said that although the regs don't require it, he has asked 4 seperate ATF agents regarding the requirement and gotten different answers each time. Seems there something rather vague about the documentation requirements regarding how the origination is supposed to be documented, at least according to how the ATF interprets it. This is all second hand based on what I understand from him, so take it with a grain of salt. As a result, despite the fact that it's not legally required, he won't transfer one without it to cover his bases. I always make sure to tell folks whenever I buy via an internet transaction so as to eliminate the problem demonstrated here. Saves everyone a bunch of hassle and PITA at least so far I've never had anyone refuse based on needing a copy of the DL.

If the PM's were deleted accidentally then we don't have a problem, which is why I didn't identify the seller by name, just asked for advice on how to handle things.

Nebraska came out publicly, I just had communication concerns.

Again, to be fair, I didn't ask for the FFL/DL up front, an oversight on my part.

Wow, this sure seems to have gotten out of hand. I know neither of these fellows but have seen them both around the boards for a long time and both seem upstanding and above board. Since most of us here are hunters-shooters and collectors, I can see and often do some pretty dumb things with the computer and deleting PM's or even a picture of a hot chick sometimes happens.

Anytime I am buying or selling, I include a copy of my DL and CCP just to make sure all the bases are covered. The FFL has to book this gun coming in and it had to come from someone so it makes his job much easier. On my auction I ad a little note that if gun "must" ship FFL to FFL add 30.00. This take all the guess work out of things.

Here's hoping that nyrifleman and Nebraska can put this to bed and walk away with no hard feelings.

Sales in Michigan do not have to be Dealer to Dealer. However, I was using a Dealer who suddenly demanded that all future transfers had to be from a distant dealer or he wouldn't do the transfer. I don't use him anymore, and don't buy things from him since then. We have mental midgets who think they must over do things to look good to the ATFB if checked.
The store I use now doesn't need anything but the gun to do the transfer. They pick the gun up on their books, and do the transfer to me like a new gun, with the NICS check. So, a private individual anywhere can send a gun to any dealer in Michigan to do the NICS transfer.
Our own dealers are falling in with the enemy by requiring more restrictions and rules than the law requires.
Sad...

Don

++1

Thing is, we still need an origination point for the firearm. We need a name and address. The 10 years in the slam and $10,000 fine for an illegal transfer is what we are afraid of. You can talk smart about atf this or atf that, but, they have us dealers under their thumb. They can once a year search our premises without a warrant if they want. What is the problem of a seller providing indentification? If you got it legit, then there is nothing to worry about. I would rather err on the side of caution, and if the person has a problem with that, life will go on if I don't get the transaction. That said, every transactiion I have had on this board, and there are many, have been perfect, except for one shipping snafu by ups.

That is the exact point, you need a name an address not someones drivers license number. My FFL dealer just requires a name an address from the sender that's it because that is the law nothing more nothing less.

These laws are stupid anyways... in the state of PA if I place a long gun in the paper and someone comes to my door to buy it I am required to make sure he lives in PA (address on a phone bill) and then take his money that is it.

Why include ancillary information like a copy of your DL when it isn't necesary? As a seller, why expose yourself to any added opportunity for identity theft?

If all that is needed to be legal is a name and address, why take it even further?

The laws may be stupid, but they are what they are. Some states are more restrictive than others. Just be sure to send along a name and address to the buyer so the ffl has something to put in his book. I think the reason some want a DL is so they can be sure it is a real person on the other end and not just a name.

Ken,

I don't know what has happened here as of late. I have never had to get the shippers FFL until recently. I lost a deal on a gun because of this. It bugs the heck out of me when these guys make up their own rules. However, on the flip side I can understand them wanting to cover their rumps.

JIm

"Our own dealers are falling in with the enemy by requiring more restrictions and rules than the law requires."

Together with the BS from UPS and Fed Ex idiots that do the same thing............

Exactly what I was Thinking..... If it is not required by law I will not give them anything more than they need to have.... perfect opportunity for Identiy theft.

Absoluuuuuuuutely you never know what that person will do with that data. There are no formal regulations on how that information will be treated. Only give the required information then --- TOUGH!!!! If someone makes a poor decision of what FFL holder he chooses then that is his problem not yours!!

I always send my name and address but I am not sending my DL.

Any shop can be put out of business by local law enforcement acting with the approval of the town/city board. There is more to worry about than BATF or state agencies here. How many small shops can afford litigation to prove they were not in the wrong and are ATF compliant despite what local LE states? A lot of you boys sure talk tough, but I'd wager you'd comply if your livlihood was at risk.

One reason why I do not live in NY! I had a Dealer give me some flak about my S/S number on the Yellow Sheet(at a gun show and it is not required)--I turned around to walk but he changed his mind when he saw the sale walking away.

+1

I agree! And who gives a damn if it is their livelyhood? If
you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen! He might try a job he can handle?

I don't care if guys like this stay in business or not!

Jeeze, what is the second amendment for? Can you define the term "coward"?

It would be a wonderful world if everyone were honest. As a rule, most are, trouble is there are a few stinkers out there that ruin it for everybody. Someone's always trying to beat the system. Courts and jails are full of them. Some honest people with "attitude" think that the rules were written for the other guy and we as licensees should look the other way. Don't work that way in real life when the BATF comes knocking at the door and wants to see all of our records. Those who are asking for DL's are dealing with total strangers from another state. They have no idea if the fiream is stolen or an honest sale. The ones requiring ffl to ffl are putting the onus on the ffl that is sending them the firearm. They are then not responsible if it is stolen. The above poster that doesn't care if someone else stays in business or not, has obviously not owned a business himself. It is hard enough to stay in business and be one's own boss, why would you jeapordize it on a $15 or $20 gun transfer. Most of the dealers that do this do it as a service, not to make a bunch of money. At $15 dollars apiece, and if you did them all day, it would be about impossible to stay in business. They just take too much time for what they are worth. Not trying to step on any toes here, just trying to make people understand that there are two sides to every story. In the end, we are all pawns of our government. It ain't likely to get any better either, especially if the Dems get back in power again.

Can you please explain how you are responsible as an FFL holder if I purchase a gun that has been stolen that is shipped to you where the seller has provided their name and address?

Why would the BATF come down on you? How the heck would you know the gun was stolen and if you followed the rules? Do you really think it's going to make a difference if the guy provides you with a fake DL along with the stolen gun?

You are right.... There are two sides to ever story... A business owner has no legal right to ask for additional information that is not required by law and he if wants to make a customer mad then that is his right too but it is not a good choice on his part since every time I get a gun transferred I always look at the other guns in the shop.... I can not go into any gun store and not look around to see if there is anything else there I want... Most times I generally buy something else while I am there... Ammo, reloading supplies, sometimes even another gun from his stock (almost always used and a classic).... Now in my opion if the "business owner" is not smart enough to know this and to know that that when I come in there to get a gun transfer and I look around ( increased traffic in his store with more chances to sell something since I generally do not drive to that area of town unless I have a reason) that he is not a business person..... Pure profit is what he gets for 10 minutes to do the transfer..... I will never supply anyone with additional information that is not required... not only him... I will not supply it to my doctor, my children�s schools and many other businesses... I do this all the time and I have even got my doctors office in "trouble or at least corrected" with my insurance company.... They "required" my child SS number for a visit and was told "oh it is because of the insurance company" and I refused and they said they will not see my son.... I called the insurance company right there and the person at the insurance company asked to speak with the doctor�s office..... Needless to say the doctor�s office changed their tune quick and saw my son and apologized..... I will protect any and all of mine and my families personal information as much as possible. PERIOD...

If the "business owner" has a problem with it than I am more than happy to take my money else where.

Also, as long as businesses let "Sheriffs" and others run over them they will continue to do it.... If it is not required by law then they should fight it.

Mark my words..... if you are not doing everything in your power to protect your identity,credit card numbers and SS numbers.... One day you will wish you had done everything you could have done.... This is the information age and information is king.

I wonder if a copy of the license with the lic # blacked-out would count? That would cetainly help against ID theft....

www.lifelock.com

He got you to respond, i think it was done well and he reached his goal. he was never insulting.

Nebraska is top of the list to deal with.

One of the best, total stand up man of his word.

Bob

You will never deal with a more honest trader than NE. Sometimes he has to go to work, and earn money to feed his kids.

If your chicken s__t FFL holder tells you after the fact that he wants blood type, and an eye scan, tell him to take the return address off of the friggin box, and find a different FFL holder for your next transfer.

Is this "24-hour campfire" or "24-hour whinefest" ?

I guess not if you don't mind being called a liar....

The transaction was ~ 3 clicks and a scroll into your profile but I would've come out publicly regardless.....

Course it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong....

Quite true Nebraska. When I send my DL I black out the number and the DOB. They can tell by looking I am over 21 or I have led one hard life.

Jim

"Course it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong...."

Yup, and I'm waiting...

I've had to send a copy of my DL a couple of times and although it makes me nervous I also respect a dealer that want's to cover his rear end.

Has anyone here considered that receiving stolen property is against the law even if you didn't know it was stolen?

Don't you want to know absolutely who you're dealing with?

What if ATF or another law enforcement agency comes to your door looking for a stolen firearm?

What would you do? How would you feel?

Would you be relieved to know that you or your FFL dealer had a copy of the driver's license from the person that sent you the firearm to show the LEO at your door?

It would at least show that you were trying to be responsible enough to provide proof that you were trying to keep from participating in an illegal transaction and were trying to help in tracking down the guilty parties.

Just one man's opinion....

I keep records... I check with the FDLE website for stolen serial numbers. I hope I never get that knock at my door but will have a lot of documentation to show that LEO if he DOES come knocking.

$bob$

Regardless of how you fell about the dealer holding up the transaction, the facts are clear. Nebraska agreed to send the paperwork on Feb. 28th. On March 14th I asked for an update, no response. March 15th I asked for another update, no response. I waited until March 18th before posting this thread, in which I merely asked for the advice of the forum. Nebraska identified himself as the individual I purchased the rifle from, and said he was �super busy�, didn�t recall the PMs from the 14th and 15th, yet every PM before those was responded to.

The issue here is not the dealer, its a lack of communication.

When I tell someone I�ll do something, it gets done, no excuses.

And now I owe Nebraska an apology?

Thanks for the responses all, Nebraska has agreed to send the paperwork, I�ll consider the matter closed.

You should apologize for not knowing your FFL rules up front. You could have avoided all of this from the get go if you took the time out to know exactly what your FFL requires from a seller. Sorry, but this is your fault not Nebraska�s.

Gee, seems like a lot of talk over a miscommunication that could have happened to anyone. I'm guilty of being busy enough that I overlook things from time to time. Stuff happens!

Now regarding the id theft. If anyone here wants to give me their name there is a very good chance that I could run their name through some of the on-line data bases and give them their DL numbers, birth dates, and possibly social security numbers. I am in law enforcement and of course this information is available via our channels which is bad enough. Not all cops are legitimate and honest. And there are laws in place that if a police officer uses the criminal system to obtain information for personal or non criminal use he can be prosecuted for a felony here in Texas as well as lose his license as an officer. Good law to have in place.

Problem is more stuff is available through the on-line databases then has ever existed on the law enforcement side of things. These databases sprung up the last decade and at one time you had to be a licensed private eye to be able to join. The almighty pursuit of the dollar has changed that. If you want please sign up for some of the on-line databases and for a few dollars you will be suprised what is on file for everybody in almost every state. www.publicdata.com is a very good site that I use to check future employees on for a friend of mine's company. It is not 100% on everything but it is awful close. Most states allow these databases to search their databases without even charging a fee or if they do it's not enough to keep the public data search engines out. Most of our information stored at the Department of Public Safety are PUBLIC RECORDS! A moron with a credit card can get everything they need if they want to "steal" your identity. If there is a concern in this thread that needs addressing it is getting your legislatures to start passing laws prohibiting this information from becoming public. There was a ruling last year where the locals had to start blocking out people's social security numbers on real estate documents. The documents were being posted on line in their entirety if a search was made through the county clerk's office. They bitched and moaned about all the work they were going to have to do. To hell with the citizens who pay their salaries, it was an inconvenience. Probably prevented some internet play time or bullshit sessions.

Seriously those who are concerned about identity theft please do some searchs for people finders, etc and see what's out there on you. It'll make you think and wonder where we're headed.

BTW the amount of money you're willing to pay is related to how much information you're able to get. Some keep information relating to your family and even friends, vehicles that have been at your place, etc. I can't recall the specific site that provided that info but we ran a guy through it and it printed about 1/2" of stuff on him. Businesses he was part of and positions he had in them, etc. Wives, women he had lived with. It was pretty detailed. I believe we paid less than $30 for it. They get information from public utility companies, phone companies, tax offices, criminal history (which btw all of it is public information!) driver's license info, marriage licenses, divorces, any lawsuits, and the list goes on.

I'll frequently ship items without having received funds (to members I deem trustworthy) and have been more patient and understanding with them regarding delays getting MY funds/trade items than you were regarding the paperwork you requested after the fact for your FFL . Dealing with a crook is different than dealing with a regular person. Crooks/Cons have ill-intent, I did not. WHAT I'M DOING IS A VOLUNTARY FAVOR FOR YOU. You can't see or understand that because you obviously have NO CLASS ....

I'd really rate that as a bit of a cheap shot myself. I really feel that he showed quite a bit of class in his opening post when he simply asked for suggestions as to what to do without ever mentioning your name.

I also thought you showed a tremendous amount of class when you voluntarily posted:

That should have been the end of the saga but as often happens others get into the fray and we end up with a 79 post thread, 80 counting me , over who is right and who is wrong. Hard feelings can then develop and at the least fingers are pointed that need not have been. Maybe NY was a bit anxious in your estimation, I know myself what it is to be busy at certain times, but a lot of us would probably feel the same way he did after that length of time. This has been a good lesson for me to do things, that I have promised to do, in the timeliest manner possible so my six decade plus brain doesn't forget it and the next thread like this is about me.

I agree with Larry. I think both of you guys showed a lot of class with your initial statements. Now........shake hands and let's go shooting.

Jim

Yup, it's become an embarrasment to both people involved. Time to move on if all paperwork has been handled. The continued sparring serves no purpose.

This is a perfect example of KNOW WHAT IS REQUIRED BY BOTH PARTIES WHEN THE DEAL IS AGREED TO. If this had been done then the need for this thread and the hurt feeling would never have taken place.

To be safe always have what is required in writing!

Now nothing more to see here folks---lessons learned.

something else to think about-and not jsut for the individuals involved...
I'm fairly new here, yet if this is one of the first posts I saw when coming to the board, i doubt very seriously if I'd have joined at all-we all have too much drama in our lives & I, for one, come here to get away from it & relax-the last thing I want to see is a couple grown men acting like 2-year olds in a schoolyard
sorry, JM2CW

Will you send me a firearm if I were to purchase one from you without going through any FFL on either end?