We all know wind has an effect on shooting. But this fall I had a really crazy experience.. Last night looking for my last birds, I jumped a nice covey and squeezed of a load of Fed. 3 1/4-1 1/4 -6's.. To my surprise, two grouse crashed to earth!! I have had that happen a few few times before. They crossed as I fired.. But that is not all.. The night before in a horrible wind storm, I was getting ready for the hunt .. Had the 870 but not loaded.. I really let the dogs out to go pee.. They ran directly into a big covey of grouse.. Several took off, as I walked over several more flushed.. I figured that was all, but continued to walk toward the spot.. The dogs put up two more.. They were crossing pretty far, but I decided to try one shot.. Swinging far a head of the first grouse, I squeezed of a WW load of 3 1/4- 1 1/4- 5's.. To my surprise the grouse crashed to earth.. To my utter amazement , the second bird maybe 6- 8 feet behind also fell.. It was dead.. The first down but still alive.. I knew wind had a part to play in shooting, but I never dreamed it could so completely destroy a shotgun pattern...
Since they were "far out" you probably had at least 9 feet of shot string..I would guess your lead was perfect to have the behind Bird fly into it....High winds at distance can mess with the pattern, but my guess would be it was more about timing on your part.
Battue, what your telling me is I hit the first bird, and by the time the rest of the shot string got there it hit the last?? They both fell at the same instant it looked like.. Just interested?? Thanks..
I don’t really buy the shot string thing. Suppose your shot string is 9 feet like you state. At 1,100 FPS that means the last pellet arrives 0.00818181 seconds after the first pellet. Top speed of a grouse is about 40 mph, which is 58.7 FPS. Assuming top speed and a direct 90 degree crossing shot, the grouse travels 0.48 feet, or about 5 3/4 inches.
1,100 FPS for an upland load is slow, 40 MPH for a grouse is fast, so this is a conservative calculation. I just don’t see the grouse ‘flying into’ the shot string when it moves less than 6” from first pellet to last.
In contrast, with a 10 MPH crosswind a #5 lead shot pellet launched at 1,395 FPS will drift 10.6” at 50 yards, 15.4” at 60 yards. Double that for 20 MPH. It’s entirely possible a decent crosswind can drifts the pattern by well over 2 feet. In addition, drift is *probably* worse on distorted (less aerodynamic) pellets, blowing up the pattern even more.
Agree with the exception in this case we have two separate targets approximately separated by 8 feet. And the string is at least that long “far” out.
Their separation is what makes the difference. One got hit with the front and at practically the same time the one behind got hit with the back portion of the string.
Battue, what your telling me is I hit the first bird, and by the time the rest of the shot string got there it hit the last?? They both fell at the same instant it looked like.. Just interested?? Thanks..
They did fall at almost the same instant. The time lag between the front and back of the string is very small. However, since the Birds were separated by the approximate length of the string, one got hit by the front and the other the back.
The length of the string and the separation of the targets have nothing to do with each other. Your assertion is the front of a 9 foot string can strike the front bird and the back of a 9 foot string can strike the back bird, assuming the birds are 9 feet (or less) apart, For this to be true, the shot would have to be traveling at the same speed as the grouse.
He hit both grouse because a) his pattern was large because of the distance, b) it was further enlarged and blown by the wind, and c) he likely hit the front bird with one edge of the pattern and the back bird with the other edge. It isn’t beyond reason to have a 6-8’ pattern at distance, bigger with some wind.
The length of the string and the separation of the targets have nothing to do with each other. Your assertion is the front of a 9 foot string can strike the front bird and the back of a 9 foot string can strike the back bird, assuming the birds are 9 feet (or less) apart, For this to be true, the shot would have to be traveling at the same speed as the grouse.
He hit both grouse because a) his pattern was large because of the distance, b) it was further enlarged and blown by the wind, and c) he likely hit the front bird with one edge of the pattern and the back bird with the other edge. It isn’t beyond reason to have a 6-8’ pattern at distance, bigger with some wind.
Well the shot is traveling faster than the Birds which makes my reason even more accurate
No, it makes your reasoning less accurate. As explained above, a grouse at full speed 90 degrees to the shot travels less than 6” from the first to last pellet arrival given a 9” shot string. If you think a grouse is running into the tail of a shot string while moving about the width of a human hand is a bigger factor than 2+feet of wind drift plus pattern spread....
And I agree with both of those submissions....The difference is they are not referencing two different targets, relatively close and on the same plane....
In addition 8 feet of length was with the good non-lead shells....Add lead shot to the equation and the string becomes longer....
Now a short string will always put more shot on the target, which is good, and at the same time diminish the the chance of the above happening.
An example from Bristers "Shotgunning, the Art and Science" that demonstrates the exact situation that WCH experienced....
Well you have to plug the right numbers in to get the right numbers out...
Because at 40 yards, for the shot size I could find, which was 7.5's...A shell at 1250fps at the muzzle is only going 636fps at 40yards...and the Birds stays in the shot stream longer...Your 1100FPS is an input error....
And your calculations are based on a 90 degree crosser...Add in some quartering to the Birds, and again they stay in the stream longer....and the numbers change again....
So a 20’ shot string at 636 FPS fully passes a single point in 0.03144 seconds. A 20 MPH bird moves 0.9 feet in that time. You are wrong about quartering shots. Traveling at 90 degrees allows the bird to move farther toward the back of the string than a quartering bird. A bird quartering away (or toward) at 45 degrees at 20 MPH only travels toward the string 0.67 feet.
If the string is 20’ and moving at only 636 FPS and the bird is 90 degrees at 20 MPH, the shot string ‘effect’ effectively adds 1 foot in diameter to the pattern. This is on a 4+ foot shot pattern, you are effectively adding 6” to each edge. Most of what I can find suggests the string is half that (10 feet) which is equivalent to adding 3” on each side of the pattern. Not much.
Most of the ‘shot string’ myths have been debunked with high speed photography and basic math. As always, feel free to draw your own conclusions.
K1500 Take the quartering Bird to the extreme and make it a straight away..at which time it will be chewed up by the entire string. Therefore the more a target is quartering and approaching straight the more shot it encounters.
Your quoted article deals almost exclusively with which choke has the longest string and how it effects pattern percentages. Pattern percentages are two dimensional. Shotstrings are three and if you factor in time four.
The you tube video posted mentioned high speed shotstrings videos of at least 8 feet with the best shot. And longer with the worst.
You may want to discredit Brister, but do me a favor and find another knowledgeable shotgun ballistic expert that agrees with you. Admittedly today, shells are more efficient- shorter string- than when Brister did his work. However, I’ve yet see any that say his conclusions were wrong.
I don’t ‘want’ to discredit Brister, and your argument about a straight away bird again misses your own point. Your assertion is a bird can ‘run into’ the tail end of a shot string. That is, the first pellets missed the bird because they were in front of the bird and the bird flew into the tail end of the string. How does a straight away bird run into pellets that missed it? You do realize the tail end of the string follows the same path and the head of the string, right? The only way a bird can run into the tail end of a string is for the bird to be crossing. In any event, how about Phil Bourjaily?
You are missing my point in that a straight away misses essentially none of the shot. Front, middle, back. It gets chewed up by all of them. Therefore, again as a target goes more quartering and approaches straight away, the more shot it encounters. It has to do with the time dimension, in that the target is spending more time in the string. Or if one prefers a different term, the shot cloud.
I did mention Phil, and the fact with modern photography he indicated shotstrings of 8 feet at best and up to 15 at worst. And again he was talking about one target and not two flying in the same plane..WCH’s situation is specifically about two flying one behind the other, which means that 8 to 15 feet can be a factor.
Of course, but this discussion is about how you can drop two birds separated by a horizontal distance with one shot, not how to get the most shot on one bird. Your first post on this thread suggests the second bird flew into the shot string. That’s what we are talking about.
Of course, but this discussion is about how you can drop two birds separated by a horizontal distance with one shot, not how to get the most shot on one bird. Your first post on this thread suggests the second bird flew into the shot string. That’s what we are talking about.
Correct, the straight away was only mentioned to indicate the input error of another’s calculations when he was using MV and assuming a 90 degree crosser.
Why would I stick to any such thing, when it doesn’t relate to two targets following each other. I’ve mentioned that particular observation a couple times as it applies to what happened with WCH. Correct?????
I’ve seen the same on two following rising clays, and frequently. And a straight up clay is the same as crosser in a different plane, that it isn’t even a question of can it happen. Shoot the top clay first and the following often runs into the shot string. A twofer. Back in the day of manual traps, when they threw two off the same trap it happened more frequently. Also seen it happen on two following Doves a few times.
Not only correct, but fact.
Question: How many points along a shot string can one use to connect with the target? Answer....every point.... In WCH's situation, one Bird was hit with the front and most likely the second someplace further back in the string...Why further back? Because it was following the leading Bird..What part of that is hard to grasp?
I give up. I ask if you are sticking with the assertion that a bird can be missed by the front of the shot string and fly into the back of the shot string. You respond, “why would I stick to any such thing when it doesn’t relate...”. A mere 5 sentences later you say “Shoot the top clay first and the following often runs into the shot string”.
I give up. I ask if you are sticking with the assertion that a bird can be missed by the front of the shot string and fly into the back of the shot string. You respond, “why would I stick to any such thing when it doesn’t relate...”. A mere 5 sentences later you say “Shoot the top clay first and the following often runs into the shot string”.
You should give up because you can’t grasp the concept of two targets following and both having enough forward allowance to be broken with one shot
MOGC. This old Dog could teach you a few tricks. Then again, I may not have enough time left for a slow student.
No need to be nasty. Not everyone understands basic math, and that’s ok. Talking in circles and laboring under old beliefs about shot string behavior that have been thoroughly debunked is ok too. Nothing wrong with any of that I suppose, especially if you keep burning powder and breaking clays.
Wyo, glad you had a good hunt. Sorry about the thread hijacking.
Well you have to plug the right numbers in to get the right numbers out...
Because at 40 yards, for the shot size I could find, which was 7.5's...A shell at 1250fps at the muzzle is only going 636fps at 40yards...and the Birds stays in the shot stream longer...Your 1100FPS is an input error....
And your calculations are based on a 90 degree crosser...Add in some quartering to the Birds, and again they stay in the stream longer....and the numbers change again....
And the math becomes not so plain....
Even with your numbers the spread doubles to 20” ... not 10 feet plus....
MOGC. This old Dog could teach you a few tricks. Then again, I may not have enough time left for a slow student.
I'm always excited for opportunities to learn new things. I learned in this discussion that you don't seem capable of being a graceful loser in a disagreement when proven wrong. That was actually a disappointment as I thought better of you.
You seem to want to show your tail feathers on this thread, so let’s make it plain. You are wrong. The math proves it. The photography proves it. Anyone other than a vintage shotgun book proves it. You are akin to a flat earther. You cling to the belief that birds are running into the back half of a shot strings that spend less than 2/100 of a second in the vicinity of a bird, during which time the bird moves around 4 inches. Sure, it’s possible that the back of a string strikes the beak when the front misses, but that isn’t why you hit two birds with one shot. It is because the pattern covers both birds. It’s not hard to understand, but you don’t want to understand it.
Let’s do it this way. How many deer/vehicle collisions do you hear of where the deer runs into the back half of a car or truck (as opposed to being struck by the front bumper)? A few, but it is much more common for the deer to be struck by the front of the car. To strike the back half the deer has to moving toward the car rapidly and time it out precisely. Pretty small odds when a car is going 60 MPH. Now, how many deer do you think would run into the back half of a truck if it was going 600 MPH instead of 60 MPH? Darn near zero. The average pickup is about 20 feet (like a long shot string), deer are about as fast as a grouse, and shot travels at about 600 MPH. Figure it out.
You seem to want to show your tail feathers on this thread, so let’s make it plain. You are wrong. The math proves it. The photography proves it. Anyone other than a vintage shotgun book proves it. You are akin to a flat earther. You cling to the belief that birds are running into the back half of a shot strings that spend less than 2/100 of a second in the vicinity of a bird, during which time the bird moves around 4 inches. Sure, it’s possible that the back of a string strikes the beak when the front misses, but that isn’t why you hit two birds with one shot. It is because the pattern covers both birds. It’s not hard to understand, but you don’t want to understand it.
Let’s do it this way. How many deer/vehicle collisions do you hear of where the deer runs into the back half of a car or truck (as opposed to being struck by the front bumper)? A few, but it is much more common for the deer to be struck by the front of the car. To strike the back half the deer has to moving toward the car rapidly and time it out precisely. Pretty small odds when a car is going 60 MPH. Now, how many deer do you think would run into the back half of a truck if it was going 600 MPH instead of 60 MPH? Darn near zero. The average pickup is about 20 feet (like a long shot string), deer are about as fast as a grouse, and shot travels at about 600 MPH. Figure it out.
Carry on and your Deer analogy is really special.. you spent a couple hours working on the math for that one. Anyway, your first first paragraph made my point.. glad to see you finally figured it out. Now Einstein, perhaps you can work on the probability of a worm crossing the highway without getting squashed.
Suggestion: Shoot more, type less. Oh and your videos and mental math were irrelevant to the core of the event..However as mentioned, it took awhile but you got it. Congrats, I was beginning to think you were little more than another keyboard Ken.
And no sheet, the pattern has to cover both to hit anything. You have a special logarithm to come up with that eureka moment? You are a smart one with special skills.
Addition: Brister also discusses the effect of wind on a shot string...He even goes into the effect of wind direction on the shot....But what the hell did he know....You throw that into your irrelevant calculations? You couldn't make a pimple on his ass when it comes to discussing, or using, shotguns...Nor can you decipher what Phil B was telling you as it applied to this situation...I was right...Keyboard Ken....
You clearly don’t need me as a foil to continue your show. I will respectfully bow to your superior position that you so eloquently backed with sound and proper reasoning. I wish you the best. Keep breaking their beaks with the back half.
You seem to want to show your tail feathers on this thread, so let’s make it plain. You are wrong. The math proves it. The photography proves it. Anyone other than a vintage shotgun book proves it. You are akin to a flat earther. You cling to the belief that birds are running into the back half of a shot strings that spend less than 2/100 of a second in the vicinity of a bird, during which time the bird moves around 4 inches. Sure, it’s possible that the back of a string strikes the beak when the front misses, but that isn’t why you hit two birds with one shot. It is because the pattern covers both birds. It’s not hard to understand, but you don’t want to understand it.
Let’s do it this way. How many deer/vehicle collisions do you hear of where the deer runs into the back half of a car or truck (as opposed to being struck by the front bumper)? A few, but it is much more common for the deer to be struck by the front of the car. To strike the back half the deer has to moving toward the car rapidly and time it out precisely. Pretty small odds when a car is going 60 MPH. Now, how many deer do you think would run into the back half of a truck if it was going 600 MPH instead of 60 MPH? Darn near zero. The average pickup is about 20 feet (like a long shot string), deer are about as fast as a grouse, and shot travels at about 600 MPH. Figure it out.
Carry on and your Deer analogy is really special.. you spent a couple hours working on the math for that one. Anyway, your first first paragraph made my point.. glad to see you finally figured it out. Now Einstein, perhaps you can work on the probability of a worm crossing the highway without getting squashed.
Suggestion: Shoot more, type less. Oh and your videos and mental math were irrelevant to the core of the event..However as mentioned, it took awhile but you got it. Congrats, I was beginning to think you were little more than another keyboard Ken.
And no sheet, the pattern has to cover both to hit anything. You have a special logarithm to come up with that eureka moment? You are a smart one with special skills.
Addition: Brister also discusses the effect of wind on a shot string...He even goes into the effect of wind direction on the shot....But what the hell did he know....You throw that into your irrelevant calculations? You couldn't make a pimple on his ass when it comes to discussing, or using, shotguns...Nor can you decipher what Phil B was telling you as it applied to this situation...I was right...Keyboard Ken....
You clearly don’t need me as a foil to continue your show. I will respectfully bow to your superior position that you so eloquently backed with sound and proper reasoning. I wish you the best. Keep breaking their beaks with the back half.
Oh, damn I missed this little bit of gratuitous condescending irrelevant horseshiit.... Obviously there is a least something you are have the potential for excellence....
Yes, keep making it better...obviously for you a foreign concept...
In your case perhaps you should look for a logarithm for mediocrity...Hey, it doesn't have to be terminal...Then again, maybe not....
Keep in mind this advice is from someone who told me it wasn't necessary to pattern a shotgun based on a video he had seen.
Yea the essence of the video and advice came from a multiple World Champion shotgun shooter...Like Brister he probably lacks any real world knowledge....But if counting those little holes makes you a better shotgunner keep at it...He gained his rep on breaking things. Do they have a World Champion pattern test event?
Different World Champion, different video...Bear with it till the end and he has a couple quick comments on patterning....He probably doesn't know anything either....
EDit, Edit, Edit!!!!...Don't know why I spend so much time picking their brains and paying to do so, when there is so much expert shotgun advice right here for free.....
Funny how some think a 1 dimensional pattern tells them all they need to know about a 4 dimensional shot string. A pattern board tells you where the gun is shooting in relation to where your point of aims was. That's about it!
The rest of the story. Now the other video, as of now you have to pay for, but some are bootlegging it on you tube. Makes little difference he says the same
Ben already told how to determine POI and POA In the first and the reason to do so on a moving target. Density is so variable based on distance and the 4 dimensions you mentioned, but old habits die a slow death. And I know of none who pattern who even consider penetration. But sometimes they get a beautiful pattern.
Anyway....again what do people who make a living shooting and winning World Championships know.
While shot string is a thing, it varies from load to load, across gages, and distances. No matter what it might be, I’ve never factored it in, or noticed any need to adjust for any effect....wind always seems to blow the same on the front as it does the back.
High wind? There’s gonna be an effect that you’ll have to adjust for, at least past 20 yards on fast stuff. Ducks and geese in 20+, pass shooting, can be a goofy golf experience.
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