I do my spring bear hunting with a Ruger 77RLS Ultralight .30-06. These days it is scoped with an old 2-7x32 Nikon Monarch UCC. It's a good scope and I have no complaints. I have been looking at an online ad for a Leupold VX-R 2-7x33 with the Firedot Duplex. I have wondered how much it would help with faster target acquisition with a moving bear or with simply seeing the point of aim precisely when it is 10 minutes left in legal shooting light and the canopy of leaves is robbing what little light there is. Any opinions from those who use similar scopes?

I've used them mainly when we get past legal light here by a few minutes and you see a pig. In that instance, the center of many reticles isn't visible on the black hide but you can still make out the animal's basic outline. That's when center illumination, like on a VXR or Accupoint can lend a hand. I prefer this sort of illumination to a "whole reticle" illumination, which can be too much distraction for a precise placement. When it's so dark that I need illumination, I don't need extra aiming points, as I'm not going to shoot that far.

I agree whole-heartedly with Jpro.
When light gets bad or contrast between the reticle and target is poor, illumination really helps.

For my eyes and low light, I prefer no illumination having 2 Z6 Swaro's to compare, one with illumination, one without.

I'll take the quality of glass over-illumination any day.

I wanted to like illuminated scopes, tried to like them, but my preference is no illumination after testing and trying things out on a number of scopes of several years.

There are others like me who also set the hype aside and truly tested illumination out for themselves with no bias and came to the same conclusion.

I think that on lower quality glass the illumination actually does help a little bit in low light though.

I would choose that old 2-7x32 Nikon Monarch UCC over the Firedot any day of the week.

Interesting, as I'm on the fence as to illumination myself. I have the Z6 3-18x50 BT-4W (non-illum) and have been pondering buying another, or keeping my eyes peeled for a used (not abused) illuminated version with the BT-4W reticle.

My experience with illumination includes scopes in quality up to March.

This past big game season was the first time that NY state stretched out legal shooting hours from 30 min. before sunrise to 30 min. after sunset. Had a Vortex 1-8x Strike Eagle 24mm on a 30 mm tube with illuminated reticle that wasn't on anything so I put it on my Marlin .30-30 to be able to handle low light situations better. Played around with it before the season at dusk and it seemed to help out a lot. It sure is nice in low light to have a definite aiming point that you can see clearly against gathering darkness. Filled an antlerless tag with it set on 3x at 75-100 yards. Except this occurred at 3:23 P.M. in broad daylight and I never had it turned on. Maybe next year. Although I am real happy experimenting in low light with it. I've shot deer in low light with non-illuminated reticles and it sure looks like a more visible reticle reticle would make my life easier.

I've been playing with a lot of scopes/reticles in low light the past several years. A lot has been just testing, not shooting....and a fair amount has been killing. I can live with it or I can live without it and a lot of things factor in for me.

If too large of an area of the reticle is illuminated or the illuminated area is too bright then illumination can make it tough to see the target in low light.

If it's a very small area illuminated and the illumination level is light/low enough that it can barely be seen then it can be helpful in low light.

I prefer good glass and a well designed reticle that has 4 bold posts equally spaced from the center to illumination. Basic mildot spacing of 10 mils (far post to far post) is the widest I want to use and prefer less than that in low light.

4 posts help more than 3 in wooded areas or areas with broken backgrounds. In open areas with a solid backgrounds it matters a lot less and it's a lot easier to center a target in low light.

The lower the light, the closer I want to be to the target. I don't ever want to have to hold off windage in low light.

I appreciate illumination the most in a FFP scope at lower powers...and it doesn't have to be low light in all cases.

I used to have a Bushnell with their Firefly reticle. It was mainly a x-hair that you charged up with a flashlight and it was good for maybe 30 min which was plenty. It helped for the 1st or last 15 min of legal shooting light. It's problem, though, was that the x-hairs were too thick and they blotted out the target for longer shots.

I think a small dim red dot works great at first/last light but also in dark timber, especially during cloudy/rainy days - which is every elk season in Western Washington. You'd be surprised how dark it is in the timber if you're not from the PNW. Good non-lit reticles work, like the old conquest 3-9 duplex and Leica #1, but z6i, vx6 LRD, and razor LHT just make it a little easier.

I have illuminated and non-illuminated. I can see the advantage that an illuminated reticle can potentially have. If that illumination is geared towards Low light. Some are not.

My opinion / my eye; In areas of undefined shooting hours, the illumination can definitely help with the actual aiming point. And sometimes when in the timber and the sun is already behind a mountain, I can see it being helpful.

I have never used it to shoot with, but have played with it enough in very low light to acknowledge that it could be an advantage in some circumstances.
I avoided illumination for years, preferring heavier 1st focal plane reticles. But, even they became difficult to find without illumination.

I've never found it useful. Have found it hindering at times when trying it.

That said eyes changing as I age and I can appreciate the light during daytime shots at this point. No need for it, but can appreciate it.

That said my Zeiss Diatal still has no battery in that compartment. Tried it once. Just was happier without light.

if I need light I grab the thermal.

In a word, no.

But the need to find different ways to market the same thing, you get illuminated reticles and 6.5 Creedmoors.

Seeing the target is job number one.

Trijicon!

+1

I have that same UCC Monarch 2-7x32 scope and it's done everything I need, out to as far as I will shoot. But now I need an iPhone connected scope, with bullshit knobs?

Very early hours and very late hours coyote calling are the times I've found illumination very valuable.

I find it really important for a FFP scope at close range in low light conditions.

Yeah it is worth it, the problem is in most cases there are not a lot of scopes that have a suitable dot that does not overwhelm your eyesight.

The VX-R has been discontinued for a couple of years so I’d beware of fakes. I have a VX-R 2-7x33 with Firedot 4 Reticle and really like it.

Took the words right outta my mouth.

Heavy clouds or overcast extend low-light conditions by an hour or more at dawn and at dusk. When the days are already short, illuminated reticles make the hunting day 20-25% longer, and the extended parts are the best parts. Win-win-win.

The lower the level of illumination, the more useful the scope--too much and I can't see anything. I also like a simple reticle since I'm not trying long shots in low light. A Nightforce SHV 3-10x42 with the illuminated Forceplex reticle is just about perfect.


Okie John

I like them, and they have useful place.

Have a couple of the VX-R 2-7 firedots. I do not see the advantage of the higher settings, but I really like the lower power settings. Especially during lower light conditions.

I also have a couple trijicon accupoints, no complaints.

The LRHS illumination was a little too much IMO.

I just got a VX6-HD w/fire dot this past year. It made all the difference this past fall in low light/gloomy conditions when I was losing the target against the background. Multiple illumination levels are a must, IMO.

Example of one, but I found that illumination is one area that Leupold did right.

I find it helpful even in good light because properly designed, it draws my eye to the sticking spot. “Properly designed” for me right now is the Duplex w/green dot in the Trijicon Accupoint 3-9, a near perfect hunting Duplex with a subtle center dot.

Some excellent comments especially the bit about needing some sort of illumination with FFP on low power as reticle becomes so thin it is almost invisible. (At least it does to my old eyes)


My favorite illuminated scopes:

SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 Tactical 30mm Riflescope
Matte, Illuminated Mil-Quad, FFP, .1 MRAD, Side Focus
Has tiny red dot in center
I have two and they are on LR hunting rifles used primarily for coues wt

https://www.swfa.com/swfa-ss-hd-5-20x50-tactical-30mm-riflescope.html?___SID=U



Trijicon trijicon tr20-1g accupoint 3-9x40 green dot
Duplex type crosshair with small green dot in center
No batteries needed. Great lightweight scope.
Use it for elk hunting

https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/tr20-1g

I sure liked it this fall on the Zeiss V4 I was using. As noted above, PNW grey overcast and dense woods can result in it being really dark while still technically legal. In the past, losing the reticle was the main reason to “call it” before last legal light, in the instances I did that. Dark etched reticles like in the older Conquests certainly help. Anyway, the illumination on the 4-16x50 V4 goes down REALLY low; on its lowest setting you can barely detect it even in very low light. I used it on the 2nd to lowest setting. I did get to pretend I was shooting a deer with it, at least. Had a few does come out at the end of light one evening, and a couple other does show up before dawn a different day. The illumination was pretty slick at that moment, I won’t lie.

I wish my first-gen Nightforce SHV 3-10x42 had it.

You mean now or the couple of dozen times you've been caught? Go awy, you dope smoking, anti-American POS liar...

If you've ever been in the situation where you could see your target but not see your crosshairs. Yes, illumination is worth it. Happens to me pretty often hunting 30 minutes after sunset or hunting hogs at night. Turn the illumination down low and if you hold the dot on him you've got him.

I've never been in that situation with top end optics. I have several scopes that have illumination and have never needed to use even past legal shooting light.

+2! I recently did field testing at twilight to dark with 3 good scopes, a swaro, a vx3hd and a vx5hd w/firedot. I had a dark target at 200 yds. With all 3 scopes I was able to see and place the x hairs on target until it got so dark I couldnt see anything. But at the last of the last light when I turned on the firedot the illumination washed out the target surrounding it, And yes it was on lowest setting.

I might agree with “needed”. However I’ve absolutely been in low enough- but legal- light in the past where the appropriate amount of illumination would’ve been appreciated.

That’s the key though- appropriate level. They seem to have nailed it on my two Zeiss V4 4-16x50’s but I’m being very specific there because it really is a very fine line between being just bright enough to help see the reticle more easily vs. washing out the target.

I should add, I have some very nice scopes but perhaps what not John’s talking about when he says “top end”. IDK top end, too rich for this workin’ man.

Black Bear are BLACK. Blacker than black when you have minutes left for legal light. An illuminated reticle, especially a dot or center cross-hair is most definitely worth it. A lot of Black Bears that we have shot (stand over bait) happened at the last few minutes of light. I remember one Bear that I shot that I was looking at for a while but didnt know it was a bear. It looked like a typical black hole in some heavy cover. That hole eventually moved and came in.

Even top tier glass wont help if you cant distinguish the cross-hairs when you lay them on that black fur. Truth.

That has been my experience as well, but certain folks here have called me an ignorant, dumbass, backwoods, stoopid climate change denier because I prefer plain ol' reticles.
Now, I may be ignorant, and a dumbass on occasion, but illuminated reticles do nothing for me when hunting.

I’ve got that same scope, non-illuminated, that I may be selling very soon. I will send you a PM.

I shot this whitetail four minutes into shooting light in north Texas this past season. I was ready at two but decided to wait it out. At four he started to look antsy so I pulled the trigger. No issues with seeing the crosshairs on the deer. This with a $200 Burris FF2 4.5-14X.

Crosshairs on the hide of a deer and the hide of a bear are like night and day. No pun intended. Seeing the critter is not the problem.

The problem is seeing the black crosshairs on the coal black hide of a bear.

I have a Burris E1 version with lesser magnification that we took a nice 300+ Black Bear with. The glass didn't matter. It was fine. The red dot made it happen with less than a minute of shooting light left that night.

Killed them without a lighted dot too but never that late.

+1 on that. Black bear in fading light is one place I would really opt for illumination. Better great glass and illumination

I think people's eyes are different in how sensitive they are to light and contrast.

That's why you get the never-ending argument over illumination vs no illumination. For some people there isn't any glass good enough to see the reticle 1 minute into legal hunting time on a rainy, moonless morning/evening.

Well worth it for me. Little red dot on black hogs in low light or under thick canopy of oaks is just the ticket.

Not all illuminated scopes are equal. The rheostat needs to provide a measure of brightness and intensity control. IME, Schmidt and Bender Flash Dot is the best.

This is 100% true. I used to be a commercial photographer, I was married to a commercial photographer, and we both taught photography for many years. Between us, we spent several decades studying light and color, and teaching others to understand how the two work together and influence each other. We could look at the same thing at the same time and describe it so differently (especially if it was brown or green) that you'd think we were facing in opposite directions and seeing different things. And no, I'm not color blind.

People do not perceive these things in the same way. I think that accounts for 90% of the difference between people's preferences for specific brands of glass.


Okie John

Good post, thank you.

the simple answer is yes and if you can afford it buy a Nightforce scope with illumination its well worth it . good luck,Pete53

Choice of lighted or not also depends on how you shoot when hunting. Do you focus on the part of the animal you want to hit or do you focus on the dot/x-hair and place that on the target in the background? For most its a balancing act between the two but you either do one or the other as your primary technique.

Personally I find the dot or illum x-hairs to dominate the sight picture so not for me. ( and wash out the target behind it in verylow light).

Also I have found that last light shooting for deer or black bear needs to be precise for obvious reasons. If I cant see the target and the crosshairs then its too late!

Fair points by Tesoro. Most of my need for illumination has not concerned game animals, as we can only shoot deer up to 30min after sunset. I've had a few last-minute shots that illumination helped on a deer, but most have been pigs and I was just trying to get the dot somewhere in his basic vital region. The pig shots were not about precision, but merely getting a bullet in his front half. Having said that, I remember one shot several years ago when I did not have illumination and it had gotten too dark to see my crosshairs in my 3-9 VX-II. I couldn't even tell the front half of the pig from the back half. So I dialed down the magnification and waiting until the pig got "skinny", which meant he was either facing me or facing away. I bracketed him with the heavy posts of the duplex and threaded him with a TTSX from a 7mm SAUM. Put it up his backside and the buzzards took me to him a few days later.

Texas heart shot! true hogs and other vermin control might have a more useful application where you just put the dot on the mass and blast away.

The Leupold Fire Dot will adjust down to a level that gives just a slight burnt orange in low light.

Can't tell the illumination is on under standard day light conditions.

I was a sceptic but the VX-6 TMOA Fire Dot changed my mind.

Reading this post about the firedot did not match my experience with mine so I just went out tonight to refresh my memory.
My scope is the VX5HD 3-15x44 w/ the Firedot Duplex (have 3).
Tried it at 1/2 hour after sunset and again 1 hour + after.
At the lowest setting, I had a hard time telling if it was even on, much less "washing out the target". Even when it was almost fully dark.
I could easily turn it up to the 3rd setting before any kind of flare occurred. The second setting was about right, at least you could tell if it was lit for sure.

I know everyone may see things differently, and scope models may differ. But for me the illumination of this scope can definitely be turned down low enough to not have a problem with the lit dot washing out anything.

And, as for me, illumination is a must have feature on my hunting scopes.

I recently bought a 5hd 2-10 firedot and on its lowest setting it washed out the dark target at last light. But with a 3hd 2.5x8 and a swaro z3 3-10 ( all set on 8x) I could see the target and the x-hairs. I could also see both with the 5hd when I turned off the dot. However I will say that having one dosent mean you need to use it all the time. And there might be times when it would come in handy. Its a $100 extra so might be better to have than not if your scope has that option.

I’ve been looking at picking that exact scope up, and was wondering about how visible the (wider) duplex reticle was and if the illuminated dot was worth it over just sticking with the Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 duplex that I have on that rifle now (which I really like). Not dialing at all and the VX-5 HD 2-10x42 is a great magnification range ,looks like it may fit the rifle well, and be an upgrade in glass and lighting (would be a plus). Would love to go the next size up, but the mounting length is too short to fit without going to a rail and rings, which I don’t want to do on an ultra light rifle.

Also, that scope is selling at almost $1,100 at the only retailers who actually have them in stock, which I think is a lot of cash to upgrade from the Conquest that’s on the rifle now, which works great and has a great duplex that can be clearly seen well after legal shooting light ends.

Maybe I’ll find one in the classifieds for a reasonable amount and give it a try, as full boat msrp/over MAP isn’t that attractive.

I have had zero issues with non-illuminated scopes in both Alberta (black bear), BC (black and grizzly) and Alaska (brown bear). None of my guides used illuminated scopes. We all make our own decisions...

FYI I sent the vx5 back to leupold for a refund. Actually it was the second I returned The first one had a mag ring that I could not turn with 2 fingers, which is common on leups, so I never mounted it. The second was much better so I did take it to the field. It failed my test because the eye box was super finicky on 8-10x in daylight, and at twilight the washout turned the scope black. It just had horrible eyebox compounded with having to adjust your cheek weld depending on the mag.

The vx5 is not a light scope. And if I ever do get an illuminated scope I will get one with a twist knob on the left side. The leupold push button is a total pos design in my view. Forget using it with gloves or when your hands are real cold. When I did my 2nd field test I was in shorts and t-shirt cause it was a 60deg afternoon. But when twilight arrived in the river canyon the temp dropped to hi 30's. I was cold as were my hands and I couldnt feel the damm push button without having to turn the rifle on the side and find it!

Leup does not allow discounting other than, I guess, for open box/demo. If you want to try one then buy one where you can return at no charge and if you like hunt for a used one.

However the big diff between your zeiss and the luep is that your zeiss has a fixed eye relief, so when you shoulder your rifle your form is the same no matter what mag setting. With the leup you have to adjust your head either to the rear or forwards depending. That is fine for bench or bidpod shooting but imo not ideal for all around hunting.

You really cant get much better than that Conquest 3-9 if it has the reticle you like. I'd take your's or the Swaro over about anything else and say heck with the red dot! I had a 3-9 conquest on a 223 and was a fantastic scope.

I just leave the Fire Dot on all the time rather than turning it on in the field. The motion sensor turns it off after 5 minutes of no movement and turns it back on if moved.

I have 8 months continuous use on the battery in my 3-18 that rides on my house/truck AR and it's still going strong. I set it on the second lowest setting and can't see the illum until it gets fairly dark so it does not draw much juice.

Most users find the eye relief and eye box on the VX5s and VX6s to be very forgiving but it's a good example that different people prefer different optics.

Not for me . I have one lighted scope that I inherited but seldom use it . By the time that it is dark enough for me to have an issue seeing regular sights or crosshairs I cant see my target well enough through a scope , or aperture, to feel safe shooting at anything. I'm in my 60's , might have been different when I was much younger . Not worth the risk for me trying to see crosshairs , absolute id of the target and watch for anything behind the target that I don't want to kill in failing light . I just use the extra few minutes of dim light to get out of the woods safely.

Yes, that, plus as I’ve just re-read the thread it’s obvious that the very thing we are talking about- namely “last legal light“- is a term that means literally NOTHING. There is incredible variance in that term. I mean, think about two people on different sides of the same mountain as the sun goes down. “Last legal light” is a moment defined and fixed in time; but those hunters could experience really different conditions at that moment. Much less us all living in different regions but using the term as if it had weight.

What would mean something is a measured number of some kind; Even that gets weird.

Most times, it’s pretty dang dark at last legal light when I’m hunting blacktail in western Oregon. It’s a low-contrast kind of light that my aging eyes don’t do well with. I’ve never killed anything using a lit reticle, but I know for sure there were a few times I was sweating the reticle a bit.

I guess you could say I’m illumination-curious, haha.

Nobody values the input of a Biden voter.

This!