Thinking of changing the scope on a 30-06 for use in the deep, dark post oaks of central Texas. I hunted this area a few years ago and at last light a deer standing at the edge of the trees was not only hard to see but, the old duplex reticle just about disappeared.
So, which would be the better of the two, or would you recommend a different reticle?

I like the German #4.

Thought this might help...

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...&topic=0&Search=true#Post1573592

I don't know how dark it gets in TX, but under conifers, the Lupy German 4 always shows up.

Has thicker crosshairs than other #4 reticles...so you don't lose them like you may on a Zeiss or Swaro in extremely low light.

I have--but generally #4 posts provide "guidance" in those dark moments--enough that you can make a pretty good shot regardless. And if the light is that low, you aren't making long shots anyway.

Thicker crosshairs ain't my favorite for shooting paper...

First, you need to understand that heavier reticles don't do much good if the scopes they are in aren't well focused. See my post on this.
What magnification and size scope are you using ? Where is the magnification set during low light ? Many people think the brighter the image, the better. No. The higher the magnification, the better. The image looks dimmer but the scope will show you more detail when set at it's highest possible magnification during low light conditions.
Unfortunately, the higher the magnification, the harder it is to see the reticle. Either the Post & Duplex or the Leupold's 4a will go a long way to allow you to see the reticle better during low light. They also seem to make the eye pick up the reticle faster in good light as well. One of the options I recommend and use myself, if anything, for that alone. E

The Leupold #4 has the center between the posts wider than the Leupold post & duplex. I would perfer the post & duplex. My son has the post & duplex in his vx3 2.5x8 and it's bolder than the standard duplex but not too thick.

E,
Sorry for the delay but, I had to leave shortly after posting the question.
I was planning to get a VXII 3-9x40 with the #4 or a FXII 6x36 with a #4 or the post & duplex. I currently have two FXII 6x36 scopes and on my VXIIs if I'm in the stand they are usually set on 6 power. It would be used mostly for stand hunting so weight is not a factor.
The post & duplex looks like it may be a fairly good compromise but, I have not had the pleasure of actually looking through a scope with either of these reticles.

Thanks for the link. That #4 looks pretty good. In looking at the Leupold catalog the thick part of the posts look so much wider than the duplex or post & duplex that I was concerned. Looked at the substention chart but, could not find the info for the post & duplex. And of course it always helps to actually see one. Wish I could find a store that stocked the different reticles so I could see for myself but, your pictures help.
How about running out and buying one with a post & duplex and then posting a picture of it?

Illuminated nr 4.

Here's a Leupold Post & Duplex...



and the Leupold No. 4 for reference....

I like the reticle in the bottom photo best.

Dang clark98ut, you are one FAST shopper! Did you buy that just for me?

Serioulsy, thanks for the pics. I think you helped me make up my mind to go with the #4. It just looks to me like it would be more effective in those last few seconds of light. Besides it's German and mine papa was born in Stuttgart. Now that's logic even the wife can understand. How can she complain about "another new scope" when there is "heritage" and family involved?

No problem on the pics, glad I could help.

The picture of the post and duplex reticle isn't the best, but to me, it was close to a standard duplex, just with a fine top post. Unfortunately, the No. 4 has been sitting in my closet waiting for a rifle for almost a year now. I bought that scope to go on my 338 Federal that was supposed to be done before deer season and I'm still waiting on it.

-Dan

Gents--for the sake of clarification--albeit a bit anal retentive.

There is a good deal of difference among #4 reticles...and the photos don't appear to make that clear--to me anyway.

For instance: Swaro and Zeiss have fine crosshairs whereas Lupy has thicker crosshairs--akin to those in the Lupy heavy duplex. Lupy and Zeiss have considerably thicker posts than Swaro.

There is a huge difference between Swaro's 4a and Lupy's German 4.

IIRC, as told by a Lupy rep, the post and duplex has the same dimensions as the standard duplex except for the top post is fine

I use the three above...and in our podunk style tests, the Lupy German 4 is the ultimate for extreme low light--sub 100 yards shots, say.

That said, I prefer the Zeiss reticle. That said, the lowest light whitetail I ever shot was with a Swaro 4a in Canuckville. I didn't have a watch on...my brother-in-law was headed back to the boat with a flashlight when he heard the shot...

Just to clarify, all the reticles above are Leupold reticles.

OK. I have the Premier Reticles version of the 4a. The Leupold version is twice as heavy in the heavy section, but roughly the same in the rest of the specs. Like mine alot. I suspect I'd like the Leupold version too. That's in a 6X42
I've got the Post & Duplex in my old 4X. Like it too. Both seem faster in daylight and work much better when it gets really dark. That would be well after legal shooting hours in the 6X42. For the legal shooting hours of twilight, I find the Medium Duplex will work, but it's noticably harder to see.
So, it's a toss up in my book. the 4a is prefered by those that want a finer thin wire, while the P&D for those that prefer not so heavy an outer post. E

The Post & Duplex is roughly a Heavy Duplex with the top post not present. 2.1 vs. 2.7 for the heavy sections and 1.0 for the thin sections. These are for a 6X. The openings are 13.2 (P&D) vs. 14.5 (HD).
The thin wire on the Leupold 4a is a touch heavier than the Medium Duplex, .7 vs. .4. The heavy sections are much heavier, 6.0 vs. 1.2. And the opening on the 4a is much wider, 25.2 vs. 9 inches. Again, all of these are for a 6X, either the 6X42 or the 6X36. E

Guys, I misspoke above. The reticle I posted a picture of is a No. 4, NOT a 4a.

E:

For the sake of less confusion here, Lupy calls their version a "German 4" for whatever reason.

The Premier 4a looks about identical to Swaro's 4a to me.

Premier's #4 has/had a smaller crosshair area than their 4a. In other words, the horizontal heavy posts are slightly longer on the 4 than the 4a. Neat reticle for range guessing.

I hope I don't have those backward. From memory is risky...

Interesting, on the 6x P&D...will have to look at the reticle specs for the post and duplex. I asked the rep about the 3-10x40 VXIII and he said the post thickness were the same as the ones on the standard (medium) duplex.

I wouldn't mind a P&D at all on that 3-10, if the posts were the same size as the HD posts.

Are the crosshair wires on the P&D the same thickness as the crosshair wires on the Heavy Duplex or are they thiner like the ones on the medium duplex?

Want to see an original German post and crosshair?





My dad brought this scope home from Germany after WW2. He had the whole sniper rifle as new. He gave it to my grandpa who had it sporterized. I sure wish he hadn't done that. The cross hairs are very thick. The horizontal cross hair moves down as you rotate the knob on the side to higher meter setting.

I love the No.4 with the heavy flat-topped posts.

Thanks for that pic Yeselk--that is cool. Compact too, eh?

It would be interesting to have it on the original rifle to work out the distance. The top turret is windage?

If I recall correctly, my 4a, the Premier Reticles version, has heavy posts about 3.0 and the thin section is about .6 @ 100 yds. The opening is about 18-24 inches. I do understand that the difference between the #4 and #4a is the wider opening of the 4a.
Leupold doesn't put all of it's reticles in all of it's scopes. The reticle shown above on the old german WWII scope is called the euro, or german, #1. I tried to get one on my old 4X. They can't do it. I didn't ask the custom shop. While I do understand they will build you a reticle to whatever specs you want, it's pretty expensive.
I don't see either the 4a or the Post & Duplex listed as an option for the VXIII 3.5-10X40. But they do list the Heavy Duplex. E

Hey E.

The "German 4" came stock with a VXII 3-10 I bought new, and I paid the custom shop to install the "German 4" in one of my 3-10 VXIII.

The #4, 4a, or "German #4" reticles are all excellent in low light. The very best is a 1st focal plane #4 reticle with square posts, the reticle enlarges as you increase the magnification making it easier to see in lower light. But you do have to be careful to not over magnify and loose enough exit pupil to black out the image.
I was hunting late one evening and spotted a legal deer at the end of a field against a background of trees 200yds away. I had a 4.5-14x50 Leupy scope that was set on 14x. I looked through the scope and saw nothing but solid black. I backed the scope down to 4.5 and could see the crosshairs clearly on the deer. It was feeding so I had time to play with the scope and noticed that at about 8x or so the scope blacked out. I just dialed it to about 5x or so and shot the deer.................................DJ

DJ, don't you know you cannot kill 200 yd deer on low power! Ha! I'll tell you, my 4200 Bushy 6-24 side focus has thick outer post ie. a German reticle, as it's the mil dot, and it is always visible. Long ago lost my reticle above 10x in a 4-14 tactical, though it may have been fine duplex-scope just blacked out at dusk above 10x.

Did read a thread on a scope test, the 40mm's performed as well as 50's and the Bushy's outperformed the Leupy's. Interesting, think the link was on 24hour.

http://www.predatormastersforums.co...5&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

That was the article, very enlightening to those who don't have access to enough 'on hand' scopes to test.

The test was a good one but I do have one criticism of it. He should have set the scopes to a lower power. If he'd have lowered the magnification to where the 40mm scopes still had at least a 6-7mm exit pupil the results might have been different, i.e. they probably would have looked more the same at 6x..................................DJ

Could be very true, but I do think Bushy Elite glass is top notch and it may be possible the newer VX3 scopes are closer in quality than vari x 3, I don't know, sure would like to see Bushnell come out with a top quality 6x, and also offer more reticle choices. They make really good optics based on my experience.

"It would be interesting to have it on the original rifle to work out the distance. The top turret is windage?"

Tomk,
I've had that old German scope all my life and I don't think I ever took off the top cap. See pic below. After removing the sheet metal top cap, I'm sure you're correct. There's only 8 clicks each way from center. So it must be a windage correction. I would really like to figure out a way to mount it on an 8mm rifle someday and try it out. Too busy until I get my boys through college though!

What I've found is that when most of us just "get the reticle sharp," it isn't as sharp as it can be made. If you go to the middle of what I call "the reticle sharp range" of adjustment, the reticle will not only it look sharper, but it looks like it's standing up, or out, from the image. This will make a difference in how well you can see the reticle during low light.
Yes, if you go too far, the image will go completely black. I didn't add that because it would be odvious. At the lower magnifications, the image does appear even brighter. But before you loose it entirely, you can see more at the higher magnifications.
The bussiness of first focal plane scope's reticles showing up better at higher magnification is true. Didn't mention it because very few use such scopes. E

And it's a shame. They don't know what they're missing....

I've got lots of questions and suspicions about these tests.
First of all, trying to read a newspaper at 100 yds. is very dependent upon how well the scope is focused. Focus can also have an effect on how well you see the scope's reticle.
Second, he said nothing about any AO's or side focus features. Any scope with such things looks less bright than those w/o.
Third, the value of a 50mm scope is that you can use more magnification at a given level of light than you can with a 40mm scope. These tests used nothing but 9X.
Fourth, the indicated magnifcations of scopes is often not their actual magnification. If you are going to compare scopes, then they need to be set on the same actual magnification.
Last of all, none of my Leupolds are any where near that bad. It's no trick at all for me to see small antlers on a buck at 150 yds., for instance, long after the sun has gone down and over 30 mins past legal shooting time. This with any those "dim" one inch, 40mm Leupolds. E

There you go, E. There's another board you can join so you can tell the guy:

1) He's too stupid to focus his scopes.
2) He's too stupid to "understand" what he sees through his scopes.
3) He's making stuff up as part of an evil plan to disparage Leupold products.

You've taught us well that the only reasons a Leupold could ever lose such a test has to be one or more of the above. Join the board and attack! Set that boy straight!

To add more questions I just got off the phone with Leupold and was told the following:
POST AND DUPLEX--The same as the heavy duplex but with the thin wire on top. At 10X and 100yds the opening is 5.5" The thin wire subtends .5" and the thick 1.5"
GERMAN #4--They make only one #4. At 10X and 100yds the opening is 25". The thin wire is .4" and the thick 3.7".
When you look at the picture of the #4 on Leupold's web site the thick portion and the thin portion, going for example the bottom to the center, looks to be about 50%thick and 50%thin. This is different than the picture of the the Leupold #4 that appears on this thread. The rep pointed out to me that as the magnification decreases the "opening" increases. Could it be that the picture posted was at a higher magnification than the one on the Leupold web site? The 25" opening of the #4 at 100 yards seems like a lot to me. Does this large opening vrs the 5.5" of a Heavy Duplex make it more or less difficult to place the shot in low light? I realize that this is subjective and I hope that users of both types will weigh in on this one.

Kingman, FYI, I DO believe, but may be wrong the 25" or so in the 6x42 #4 is the same as a wide duplex, next, I believe the poster told me that the #4 photo was from a 6x42, so the x's are constant....

Again, I may stand to be corrected, if so someone will chime in.

The book says the post/duplex in the 6x is 1.0 on the thin wire....not sure why the book says that and the Lupy person said .5"?

65BR is correct. My scope is a 6x42 FXIII. Here's the box with the part number...

a couple emails from Lupy Tech. I stand corrected on the P&D

Tom:
(For the German 4 in a 3-10)
the price to have the heavy duplex in will be $54.99 plus $15.00 S&H.
Here are the Dimensions:
heavy wire section- 6.12 inch on low and 2.08 inches on high thin wire
section- 2.16 inches on low and .735 inches on high
distance between top and bottom:
32.4 inches on low
11.02 inches on high

All readings are at 100yds.

(For the post and duplex)

Tom:
Both the crosshair and the posts of a Heavy Duplex reticle are double the thickness of a regular duplex reticle. (the three bottom posts)

Kingmanguy:

I hope my email post doesn't make things more confusing...

Have both the HD and German 4. IMHO the scope graphics on the box and web site aren't even close on the German 4. The heavy posts of the German 4 extend significantly further on my 3-10 and 3-9 in viewing. The spacing for the crosshair is good near and far for both reticles for hunting and paper.

The heavy crosshair is what makes it more usable in low light as it won't disappear as quickly as a "normal" crosshair. The heavy posts come into play in extreme low light...and that is probably well after legal light in most conditions, in most states.

In my experience the heavy crosshair on either reticle is likely all you will ever need in places where there is a legal light requirement...but in a couple particularly dark spots I sit, I use the German 4 from Lupy--for guidance from the posts, just in case I need it.

In a Zeiss (German)or Swaro using the fine crosshair in their repective 4 reticles, I have used the heavy posts for a shot or two after losing the crosshair. I use 6x in low light as it works best for me.

FWIW, have spent many hours, (when hunting solo) watching spots in the North well into the night to try to see if Mr. Big was still around...with excellent binoculars

This is anal retentive to the nth, but tis the outcome of chasing mature whitetail for too long...

Jon, if you want to call him stupid, be my guest. I would say he's just ignorant. He doesn't know any better. E

But that's your job. That's what you do to everybody here.

Close enough.

Yes, he only actually looked through the scopes. He doesn't know any better that his eyes were playing tricks on him, he was hallucinating, what he saw was just so complicated he couldn't understand it.... Hopefully somebody who hasn't actually looked through the scopes will set this poor misguided soul straight by telling him what he should have seen....

What. A. Joke.

Post and CH if you can find one you like.

I'd also point you to Mueller Scopes with the illuminated reticle. Good scopes for the money. There are high end scopes with the same, and they work well in low light.

If you don't understand what you are using and how it works, you won't use them to their fullest potential. 50mm scopes no better than 40mm scopes ? Don't make me laugh. I'm no fan of the 50mm scopes. But I know well what they do better. E

Jon,

That's one beautiful rig you have there; inside and out. That's one heck of a bedding job too, and everything just...fits together...just right. Congrats! Which IOR is that?

I don�t.
You�re not the only person on the planet that can focus a scope even though you think you are.
So?
Showing 50mm scopes are more useful in low light situations.
Blah blah blah�.
We know, we know � you own the only scopes on the planet made by Zeiss that have Leupold markings.
Blah blah blah blah�

I just want to thank you azzholes for screwing up an interesting post....again.

I've had both the #4,and the Post and Duplex. I perfer the Post and Duplex.

GB

You have one person to thank. Go back about 1 month and check the posts while he was gone. Nice, sedate board - a pleasant place to be. Then he returns.

tomk,
Thanks for the reply. Isn't it amazing! You got your info from Leup and I got mine from Leup and they aren't even close. On the positive side it is good to know that on the #4 that the heavy section is longer than what is shown on the web site or the box. If I may ask three more questions I think it will do it:
(1) Am I correct in that as the power DECREASES the wire gets THICKER and the opening in the middle INCREASES
(2) I get the feeling that the Post and Duplex might be a better all around reticle with the #4 better in very low light. Yes/No?
(3) Finally what is your choice, or is it just a pick'um?
Thanks,
Ed

Ed:

1. Yes, at low power at the same distance, the opening reveals more ground and I have never noticed the wire--sure it would. FWIW, I sight in at 200yd at 10x and shoot deer at considerably less most of the time at 6x sitting and 3x stillhunting.

2. Probably.:)

3. If I could have only one it would be the reticle in the German Zeiss, which has heavy posts like the Lupy but fine crosshairs. It also covers fewer feet in the crosshair area too, so losing the crosshair in dim light is not a big issue.

I use the Lupy for particular spots with a 7-08 in Michigan for whitetail and the Zeiss on a 7x57 and Swaro on a AI for other places. If the Zeiss made a decently lightweight scope it would be different. For me and my 17 yr old son the new Lupy glass is just as good for low light hunting. And I mean really low light.:)

If I had to to use Lupy reticle selections only...I just don't know.

tom

Relative to the object your looking at yes--but not relative to your FOV. In other words, the reticle "looks like" it stays the same size as you turn down the power while what you're looking at gets smaller--just the same as any 2nd Focal Plane scope, probably including all your current scopes.

tomk,
Thanks. I think that I will give the #4 a try. What the hell I like the look of it.
JonA,
Thanks. Of course you are right as it is still a 2nd focal plane scope.
Regards,
Ed

For 60 bucks or so, you can always fix it

That's better. We're all either stupid or the use of a riflescope is really, really complicated.

You can keep laughing as long as you keep refusing to even look through anything besides a Leupold. It's amazing how real life doesn't always add up to exactly what you'd expect from a spec sheet.

As they say in football, it's why they play the games.

Thanks.

Which one? I've got three: 2.5-10X42, 4-14X50 and 3-18X42 FFP. Mmmm, glass!

1) Yes.
2) I'd call it pretty even. It depends on which one would fade to the point where it wouldn't be useable. That would probably be light so low as to not allow you to see much over 40-60 yds. with your 40mm scope set on 6X. Pretty frustrating trying to hunt on a night that dark.
3) I use both and like both. Since my 4a isn't as bold in the thick posts as the Leupold version, I'm not quite convinced it would be favored over the P&D. I will say that I prefer either to the Medium Duplex for all of my large varmit or big game shooting. Even in daylight. E

Solve all your issues and buy this:

http://www.sportoptics.com/nightforce-nxs-2-10-32-scopes.aspx

You can see the reticle and the game in any legal shooting light.

The way I improved the low light capabilities for my Leupolds is by going to a heavy duplex. It really helped. Also for a leopard hunt I have planned that will be in low/artificial light, I selected the (ugly) Leupold 3.5X10X50 with an ill #4 German. The rheostat works great, giving me a range from a small, almost imperceptible red sliver all the way to a bold red dot. Great scope. The German #4 is a good compromise as the heavy duplex does cover almost MOA @100. jorge

Nightforce makes nice reticles, yet I wonder about a 3.2mm Exit pupil. My duplex 3-10 VX3 does fine.

I like #4s that are like the Premier retro, not the overly wide designs. PD is also a very good one. I like having an open FOV on the upper plane.

Zeiss made a simple No.2 IIRC, post w/horizontal wire.

Lit reticles do show nicely, thinking S&B flashdot, 1.5-6x42