If you use variable power scopes,at what power setting do you shoot your tightest groups?

Just for giggles today, I shot groups at 9x, 6x, and 4x on my 3-9 Conquest. Interstingly, the groups got tighter as I went.

I then tried the same experiment with my 2-7 Viper, using 7x, 6x, and 4x. I noticed the same thing.

I'm beginning to think I should chuck 'em all, & go back to fixed 4x's! In the field, I've always got 'em dialed-down to the lowest setting, anyway.

What are your experiences?

FC

The opposite ........................DJ

Most definitely, opposite as well.........

Yep

As long as I can see well enough to center the crosshairs of what I want to hit the magnification does not really matter to me. I hunted this season with a 3.5x10 set on 6x and never saw the need to move it.

I shot this with a .308 at 100yards while testing a used 2x7 sightron, one shot each at 2x, 5x and 7x, I guess the scope passed the test(thanks LubbockDave)

Maybe you could go to a ghost ring setup and shrink those groups some more..........<g>


Roy

6x usually does best for me. More don't tighten things up.

It depends on how well the reticle/target/magnification/distance combination works. With an appropriate target I can shoot sub-1" groups at 300 yards with a straight 6x Leupold on my 223.

Some of the best groups I've ever got came with a fixed 4.More power has never really helped me, out to 200 yards at any rate.

When my groups decrease in size with decrease in magnification, I usually find that I need to pay better attention to my rest. Image shake from a marginal rest may be getting you at higher magnification. Usually I typically sight in at 4-6x, since that is almost always where I shoot. You have to be solid when you shoot at high magnification if you want the benefit of the power.

I'm always shooting MPAJ so I guess that explains why I like less.

If you have a solid rest and can return your rifle to the same position after each shot then high magnification always benefits group size.

Otherwise, Benchrest shooters would be using 4X scopes instead of 40X & 45X scopes.

I'd be careful of absolutes.

4X seems to be where I do best.I cant explain it but when I go higher my groups get bigger.My nephew is the same way,he found out a couple weeks ago at the range with me.I dont know why but it is so.

Using a bench rest, consistent rifle and ammo, tighter groups with higher magnification. I did this once with a good Anschutz rimfire shooting ten 5 shot groups at each magnification. I think I used 4x, 6x, 9x, 12x and 16x as I had a 4-16x scope on it. Group averages varied in general about like the difference in MOA covered by the reticle on the target. Anyway, without all the extra info, more mag meant more precise aiming which meant aiming error was reduced, and groups were tighter.

Now using targets with large crosshairs printed on them has allowed me to line up the outer crosshairs a bit more precisely and shoot smaller groups than I thought likely using only 4x or 6x.

I shoot the best at 10x ,I use my variables all the way from 3x-10x in hunting situations.

I was; I preceded my statement with two caveats. If you can shoot your rifle with the same technique and precision as a benchrest competitor, the added magnification will always help you by aiding in precise bullet placement.

I'm thinking we ain't talking about 15 pound rail guns and concrete benches here.

Must be the 'Hunting Optics' that gave that away, obvious for some, not so much for others.

I'm pretty sure that "Most" of us here understand the concept of an analogy and that Benchrest Competition is all about group size......................DJ

dj.
To be honest 40x rifle scopes suck.I dont really care who makes um.They are only good for one thing and one thing only.A reticle matched up a decent aim point and power matters not as much.
dave

Complex question with no absolut answers except in a theoretical sense because hunting rifles are not BR rifles.I'm talking big game rifles here,not specialized target or varmint rigs.

More important than magnification to me is the right size target to make me hold steady,and tight. It makes sense that the rifle will shoot tighter groups at higher power than at a lower setting, but not necessarily;this assumes that the accuracy potential of your rifle is "infinite",ie capable of GIVING more accuracy at,say 10x than at 4 or 6X. Most are not.Neither are you,except in a theoretical sense. I've seen field position groups shrink considerablely when the operator turned the power ring down;higher magnification induced more wobble which he could not control,and the system and shooter relaxed,and squeezed them off easier.

So,especially under field conditions, you do no better at 300 yards with 10X than at 4 or 6,cause your rifle and you are both only capable of so much.

The best "group tightener" I've ever installed on a big game rifle is not an expensive, high magnification scope; it's a top quality barrel,like Kreiger or Lilja,etc. I've shot so many groups slightly over and under MOA at 300-400 yards with 4-6X scopes they seem pretty routine.

Yet there are times it seems the higher magnification helped,especially on tiny targets with quality barrels and rifles,and at longer distances from very steady rests.OTOH,On most big game animals,it is pretty easy for me to see them well enough to kill them at any distance out 500 yards with a 6X.

What a quality barrel does for the accuracy of a hunting rifle is pretty impressive.

I've seen sub-MOA groups shot at 600yds with Iron Sites before. It's certainly possible to shoot great groups with no magnification and you can shoot good groups with whatever magnification if you match the targets to the sites. The point is that it's "generally" easier to shoot better groups with more magnification. With higher magnification you can see your movements and try and control them off the bench.
I do think that some shooters shoot better with a little less magnification because they don't see their wobbles and squeeze off a good shot. With more magnification some shooters tend to pull off a shot when they think they are centered instead of making a good squeeze - I've done it myself.
I certainly don't have 40x scopes on my hunting rifles but that doesn't mean I couldn't shoot smaller groups if I temporarily mounted one to shoot groups off the bench with..............................DJ

I'll just call you Little Twig Jr.

Or azzhat.

Same thing.

At 100 yrds. I always shoot better on the lower power settings. Image shake that the higher magification gives plays with shooting!

Don't worry, I'm not the only one that realizes you are often wrong. It's almost to easy with you.......

It�s uncanny; you sound exactly like him.

Oh, yeah, I�m not wrong here. You purposefully interpreted something I said the way you wanted it to read.

Never realized you had heard his voice, much less mine.

Course you read like my ex-mother-in-law, bitch like her too....

I'd have bailed out too.

If I'm going for tightest groups, I'm typically shooting off of bags with the dial maxed out. Depending on what rifle I'm shooting that's 6X, 8X, 9X, or 10X. Without a doubt the higher the better for me in every case.

I agree; you don't have to be shooting a 150 lb rail gun (rail gun?? WTF, over?) off of a 2-ton concrete bench to get a benefit from properly mounting your rifle on a pack, or sand bags, or a rolled up bundle of clothes under the front and rear of the stock to get the benefit of more magnification when shooting for smaller groups.

So mirage ain't an issue after the first 100 rounds in 3 minutes?

Why?

Are you planning on shooting groups on full auto?

If you plan on firing that many rounds a simple piece of plastic/poster board stretching the length of the barrel forms a fine mirage shield. No need to be fancy like the benchrest crowd.

But then, you know as well as the next person on here that the likelihood of someone shooting enough rounds, fast enough, to cause a barrel-born mirage problem are slim to none. And if they were, they would more than likely know to use something as a mirage shield.

Try again.

I tell you what Steelhead.

You win.

You can have the last word; I'm done with the back and forth crap with you.

What you don't understand is amazing. I'm sure the way lots of folks do things ain't how it is done here. I do shoot LOTS of rounds and rather quickly. I do it at a whim whilst out doing other [bleep]. Of course I have the luxury of being able to shoot damn near out my door and anywhere else in a 200,000 acre point from where I am. We tend not to carry silly [bleep] in the bush. MPAJ and shooting quickly at 700 yards is a concept and a practice I doubt you fully grasp.

Here is my mirage shield.

DJ: Sure;absolutely.Agreed

I have proven that if you try really hard you can shoot just as crappy a groups at high setting as lower settings.However ,the higher magnifications let you see more and if you have an excellent rest and good trigger and technique then you should be able to achieve all the rifle is capable of. I like to use a bullet hole for a target and have enough magnification to quarter it steadily. Try dry firing on your target before you shoot your group to see what all moves as the trigger is pulled..If anything moves, you don't have a good enough rest.Works for me and saves some ammo.

WOW!!!!! I sure like to see that!!!!

Ain't magic.

Anything is possible on the net........

I'm sure that helps many of you sleep at night.

Guessing ain't my thing.

Steelhead, I may be crediting you with something you didn't claim. Are you the same fellow that said you regularly shoot sub one inch groups with 22 rimfires at 100 yards using bulk ammo?

I can do you one better. Go to a NRA High Power Rifle Match and go help pull 300yd rapid fire targets for one of the High Master shooters. Some of their 10rd rapid fire groups will embarrass you. It will at least let you know what's possible with Iron Sites much less a 6x scope...........................DJ

Still, sub-inch at 300 is good in any book. That's .33 MOA or less.

Here's what will do it if I lay off the coffee.

Leupold M8 6x42AO target model, parallax dialed out

Large diamond shaped target, approx. 6" on a side drawn with about 3/4" thick lines

Typical front and rear bag rests

Remington 700 LTR, factory trigger tuned to 2 1/4 pounds, action lug area bedded, bolt lugs lapped in, barrel recrowned with a recessed 11 degree cut

Lapua brass, FL sized with slight shoulder bump
Remington 7 1/2 BR primer
N140 (can't recall charge, don't have records at work)
Berger 75 grain VLD, seated out for single load only

All loaded rounds have less than .003" TIR measured on the bullet 1/10" forward of the case mouth. Most have less than .002" runout.

The best part is I haven't really fine tuned the load.

I'm not on the same shooting planet as those guys. In the field I'm not going to be in Steelhead's league either. I don't get to shoot at those distances, or in varied terrain. I just like to piddle around in my reload room and pop caps at the range.

Well I'm NOT a High-Master shooter either (yet ) but I have seen enough embarrassingly small groups to at least see what is possible.
A month or two ago I shot an F-class match. The shooter on the target next to me put 5 consecutive shots into a group at 600yds that could have been covered by 1 paster! I probably wouldn't beleive it unless I saw it happen. When I was shooting there was mirage running a Minute either way. I shot a score that would have been a Master class high-power score and came in next to last. Some people can really shoot! Just maybe not always me .............................DJ

That weren't me.

An optical phenomenon may shed a little, uh, light on this. The human eye can generally perceive about 1 inch at 100 yards. That's with "normal" 20/20 vision, whether your own eyesight or corrected. This means we can differentiate between black and white lines 1/2" wide (a black line and a white line together equal 1 inch).

This means that a 4x scope of decent optical quality allows us to perceive about 1/4" at 100 yards, a 6x scope about 1/6", a 10x scope about 1/10", etc. So the difference in "aiming ability" with a 4x scope is about .15" (.25" minus .10") worse than with a 10x scope, so our groups should be average about .15"

Of course all this theory does not take into account parallax, the aiming point, and our own ability to shoot.

Just did that Sunday before last. Three different shooters put all ten shots in the X or 10 ring with boring regularity. None of them were High Masters and one was a fifteen-year-old girl. Made me realize just how much practice I need.

I use a 8-32x variable for load testing at 600. I generally am on 24 or less due to daytime mirage, and have shot groups down to almost an inch at 600(IE 1.25 basically, we just tossed a ruler on it before we tossed the target). Some days I'm down to 12-18x. Some days I can use 32. But its rare. I think the high end scopes take a LOT of getting used to and I dont' like all the extra mirage dancing around.

As to low power, it used to bother me till I started in highpower mathces with irons. It doesn't bother me anymore. Though for precision shots I"m still not averse to having 20x available if the conditions allow its use.

Irons, I've shot more than a few half inch 100 yard groups give or take size wise. ITs not hard to do. We do a lot of reduced course shooting at 200 and 300, my prone slow fire groups are 22 shots and generally a 200-12-15x which means with iron sights out of position with a sling, you can ding some tight groups. And honestly if there is no wind at 300 and the light is right to shoot a 5 shot group of an inch or so isn't hard to do. ANd I'm using service sights, not match irons. Shooting them all inside the 10 ring from 100 to 600 either slow or rapid is easy.

A LOT of it is in your brain, you have to know you can do it.

This was shot with a leupy 2.5x scope at 100 yds, actually magnification is closer to 2x. Not a fluke as I've repeatedly shot similar size groups with the same scope on my 350 rigby.





Oh, and that 350 rigby just shouldn't shoot, as it's built on mauser military action, with a wood stock, and the military trigger.

I've used 3-9 variable and fixed 6x, and somehow the groups dont' get smaller.



Some people try and make guiding a bullet way more difficult than it needs to be, and they simply don't understand the purpose of a scope. A rifle sight, iron or optical sole purpose is to allow one to consistantly hold the rifle in the same position when you shoot it. It's purpose isn't to examine the target. And for shooting paper, I like to use the square block targets and I nestle the square into the corer of the reticle. Makes for a good solid hold at 100 yds.

It obviously works for you 458.

However, if you moved out to 200 then 300, a little extra magnification would help you insure you hold the rifle the same way each time more so than magnification in the 2.5X range.

If it's so easy, why don't people shoot 800's? .....................DJ

~sigh~

Easy for you maybe...

The really good shooting I've done I think was the result of getting lucky and the wind blowing all 5 rounds into 1/4 ~ 1/2 MOA groups.

rost,
You are absolutely right about it being in your brain.
If your rifle will do it, all that is required of small groups is consistency on your part.

If you repeat the same sight picture, you can shoot almost as well as the rifle can do. I was shooting an old Enfield No.4 sniper rifle one day, and banged off 5 into .55 at 100 yards. The group on the firing line, mostly just sighting in rifles and playing, moved out to 200 yards, so I did, too. After settling down, I shot another group of .75 at 200 meters, dead center.

The guys beside me said, "You ought to put a scope on that thing and see what it will really do."

I replied, "Maybe so", but I know it wouldn't make any difference.

I shoot a 2.5x Lyman on my old custom Mauser .270.

That said, I have been using a cheap varmint scope to evaluate loads of rifles, and it is productive enough that I am shopping for a good one, like a Swift, Nikon, or Bushnell 3200 / 4200.

This post raises some suspicions. Having collected Enfeilds for years I seriously doubt that your rifle will shoot 3/4" 5 shot groups at 200meters. Especially since the Enfeild snipers come equipped with a scope..............................DJ

A friend of mine who collects Enfields has 2 sniper rifles with the issue scopes, one .303 and one .308.

Since you are a collector, here's a little history for you...

Not all rifles set up by any army as sniper rifles are issued, and some are never scoped. I have a 1903A3 Springfield like that, without the front sight, with a new Redfield base and rings, all minty Parkerizing, but never a scope mounted, and never issued.

My rifle, like my friend's .303, is one of 60,000 selected out of 2,500,000 Enfields gone over by the armories after WWII, and after Korea. Of those 60,000 which showed promise, some were scoped and re-issued to sharpshooters or snipers. Mine was never issued, after having been tuned at Holland & Holland and tagged, and sitting in British armory in Ireland from 1950 until 1992.

My No.4 MkI* FTR is one of the most accurate rifles I have ever owned, and I don't intend to deface it by mounting a scope that did not come with it. The same is true of my 1903A3, although I have the correct scope for it from another Springfield. My M1D does have its original telescopic sight, which I now need to clean and rebuild, so I can keep shooting it.

Maybe but I still have an extremely hard time beleiving that it put 5 shots into .55 into 100yds and then 5 into .75 at 200 (yards or meters you mention both). No other report I've ever read on the accuracy of Enfeild Sniper rifles has reported anywhere near your claims of accuracy.
What markings show that your rifle was "tuned" by Holland and Holland?.....................DJ

Here are a couple good references on Enfield Sniper rifles:

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3511

and especially:

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri10c.htm - Titled �Is my Lee Enfield sniper rifle a fake?�

To summarize if your Enfeild "Sniper" rifles doesn't come with a scope and mount it's most likely a fake. Of course it's impossible to tell for 100% sure without careful examination of your individual rifle but your post quoted above has the same air of authenticity as your tiny group size claims.....................................DJ

You want the proof marks or the receiver stampings in English?

I hate to tell you, but I set up a standard weight M1-A for a friend a few years ago, not the heavy match rifle, that shot 10 shots you could cover, outside to outside, with a 25 cent piece, using Radway Green, after about 40 shots adjusting the guide rod and bedding. Again, with iron sights at 100 yards.

Do you have an Enfield built as a sniper rifle?
What year? What kind of markings does yours have?
What kind of scope does yours wear?
It won't shoot sub MOA?
Do you know how to tune the bedding?

Does it have Century Arms Import marks? , Pictures?................DJ

Pictures...

This should be rich.

He hasn't produced a single original picture when asked.

DJ, nailed it right on the head on the first reply... and this has gone on for a week. hard to comprehend ?????????
B

Lee24 is a thoroughly proven Liar and internet poser. It is occasionally funny to read some of his absurd claims though. The M-70 Quality control thread was a classic.......................DJ

Dood's pictures on the other hand are usually very well done.

I really want to stay out of this but have been keeping up with it.For me time to go shoot is hard to find so I dont go as much as I would like.I have been paying attention thinking to understand how to improve.I believe I may have a solution.I do tense up at higher magnification because of the wobble I am simply not comfortable with it.Im not making excuses just understanding the situation.The tighter I grip the more my hands hurt(arthritis).I think it is a consentration issue because not enough time at the range.I do envy you guys who get to enjoy shooting so much but for a lot of us the time and expense is not so easy to come by.

I got handed a Palma Match rifle once at 600 yards; had those very fancy peep sights(?);don't know if they magnify at all,or very much about them. I had never fired a Palma gun, but at 600 I hit the bullet marker 3 times straight. I don't know how small that is,but it was far smaller than 6".I got the impression the rifle was so damn accurate it was like cheating......

I like mule deer's response...I know in the field, out to 400 yards on anything from a large mule deer up,scope magnification above 4X is, for me superfluous.

Bob-- the marker that is SUPPOSED to be used at 600 is a 3 inch spotter disc...

DJ- reason no 800s, well there are 800s shot, but you know.... we get forced to do that offhand thing, I should have been more clear.... as long as I'm not on my feet, its easy to dump em all in the 10x ring.

I had also been under the impression the SMLEs were much more accurate out farther than up close in regards to MOA, but don't recall why. I don't know why I like them but have only one, and it shot around 1.5 inches with 303 ball at 100 the few times I've drug it out...

Jeff

I know you're brain-damage and grieving at leaving your little paradise have you somewhat shaken STEELhead, but I, for one, have posted pictures - of what is immaterial - and two, have never claimed to have something I don't have and failed to produce a picture when called on it.

Do try to keep up.

Jeff: Yeah, it was about that size. I was amazed at what could be done with those sights.

Rost, being in La Grange, TX do you ever come up and shoot with us at Oklahoma City Gun Club. I know a lot of guys from the Dallas Ft.Worth area do....................DJ

Pretty defensive, I just stated your pictures are better. I have seen your pictures, I haven't seen a single one from Lee.

Sorry you are so paranoid, good luck with that.

Actually Lee24 has posted one picture. It was a picture of the inside of the FN factory showing a worker assembling a machine gun. He claimed that it was "one from his laptop".
Turns out the picture was copied from another website - it was documented from where he stole it.
All on the classic "New M-70 Quality Control Thread"....................................DJ

Lee24 has posted the picture he lifted from the magazine. Now, unless you're blind, and we all know someone who can shoot 700 yds isn't blind, you saw that picture.

Pretty disingenuous of you. Good luck with that; I heard there's a 12-step program for it now, L.A.

Don�t make a further fool, and liar, of yourself by claiming you�re doing anything other than attacking me.

First, from the bolded areas above:

My pictures on the other hand�.other hand from what? Lee24�s of course. D�oh.

Then you stated my pictures are �better.� Better means a comparison. The only other picture(s) being discussed are Lee24�s. In the same passage you claim not to have seen a single picture from Lee.

So, were you lying about seeing his picture or complimenting mine...or both?



Like I said, do try to keep up.

More magnification does help me shoot smaller groups, up to a point, and especially as the range gets longer.

However, lots of magnification can really mess with your head (esp at 100 yards) by showing you your wobbles. Since head heart and hands are so connected in this martial art, I could see how having your head messed with could mess up groups size... not speaking of any one person here, just a general observation.

But for ME more magnification makes smaller groups.

C'mon guys, lets only pic on the people that really deserve it ...................DJ

Talking about really accurate rifles and good marksmanship to people who have never been around it, much less done it, is like an Olympic weightlifter trying to describe how to lift twice your weight overhead, to a bunch of couch potatoes who couldn't press 100 lbs. They think he's the one who is ridiculous.

Wow, you are further gone than I thought. Seemed pretty clear in my first post. I have seen pics of some of your rifles, recall one with a new Zeiss maybe. Anyway, it was a big mamajammer with a 56mm objective.

Methinks you are getting twisted about nothing, but if it makes you happy carry on.

One of the two guys who got me started in shooting is one of the few people listed in the Benchrest Hall of Fame, the other placed 2nd in the World Championships. I've pulled targets and told jokes with in the Pits with David Tubbs. I've shot silhouette with and against several National Champions. And while I'm certainly nowhere near any of these in shooting Accomplishments it has been my distinct pleasure to shoot with them, listen and learn from them.
But Lee I'd have to say it's not the shooters that you have or haven't been around it's the documented Lies and BS you've posted on this and other forums that make you look so ridiculous.........................DJ

You know, since every post you have ever posted to me or about me was sarcastic, smartazz or an outright attack the above alone would be enough to prove you�re lying.

I should have simply posted that to begin with.

I learned quite a few things in 17 years as a Peace Officer, and now as an instructor of 18 to 22 year old children.

One of those things is if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it�s probably a duck.

You meant to insult me just as you have on just about every other post you�ve directed my way.

Your own words, past and present, prove that.

All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles.

dj,
If you are so experienced with good shooting, why does a 1/2 inch group with iron sights sound so unbelievable to you? Something doesn't add up.

Anyway, this thread is about your EXPERIENCE with the correlation of group size and scope power (and resolution, of course). If you want to start some other thread, do it in another thread.

The issue of shooting a 1/2" group with irons is dead-on in this topic.

Folically Challenged: I have been shooting groups with Rifles using variable power scopes for MORE than 40 years now!
And for more than 40 years now I have been experiencing the exact opposite results that you saw "today"!
Without exception over the course of even a modest amount of shooting YOU will get the best accuracy from YOUR Rifle/load when your variable power scope is set at its highest power.
There will be, from time to time, a few exceptions.
But never doubt your best accuracy will be obtained almost always with the highest power scope setting.
Following the "logic" of some posters on this thread it appears that the bench rest types are making a big mistake by using their 45 power scopes - they should switch immediately to 3 or 4 power scopes for best accuracy!
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy