Just received my first scope yesterday from a very kind member here on the fire. My first impression was, wow this is one heck of a scope. The scope seems extremely heavy but the optical quality is second to none. Every feature of the scope is basically flawless. I'm very happy with the eye relief and with the overall look at the scope. I'm not sure this scope would be a good match with an ultra light rifle. My scope is the classic to 2-12 x 42 mm. I think it will become my go to scope from my hunting needs outside of Mountain hunting.

Would like to gain your perspective on what you think of Schmidt and bender scopes I think their world-class but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Its basically a piece of junk. But since you didn't know any better when you bought it just send it to me and I will send you a very nice vintage leupold Veri-x II at no charge :-)

All kidding aside they are awesome! That's about all I can say.

What's it weigh? My ultralight wears a 19 oz scope and still weighs 6lb 14oz.

And balances like a boat anchor.....

Scope weighs 19OZ.

IMO....

Pros:
1. as good as glass gets in a riflscope
2. as well made as any scope on the planet


Cons:
1. piss poor duplex reticle (non illumnated), much too thin
2. eye relief adequate at best
3. heavier than other options
4. other scopes in the $1000 and less category work just as well, and sometimes better

5. service....send back to Germany
6. no reticle change option
7. pricing has become beyond ridiculous.

That being said, if you like it, it's your money, and I hope you enjoy using it. I'm betting you will, for a long time.

My gunsmith says it really balances nice. You are letting prejudice get the better of you.

I have had the 3-12x42 Klassic for the past 15 years. Despite JG's grade I still think it is the best hunting scope on the market. My eye relief is plenty and I have a very long length of pull. The reticles can be changed...it's just a little more expensive than most. Mine has a #4 reticle and w/the first focal plane I can make it any size I want... so the much too thin reticle doesn't hold water. I also have a warranty department right here in the US in Ashburn, Va. It is a little heavy but if a guy can't handle an extra 6-7oz. he needs to buy a Tasco. I also don't see anyone trading their S&B's for one of these other $1000 scopes...what ever they are! powdr

They are indeed a good scope. However, in addition to the cons mentioned previously I'll add that on the lowest variable settings (3-4x) most everyone notices and complains about "tunnel vision".

I have a Klassic 3-12x42mm and think I might sell it as I picked up a Z6i with turrets I'm going to test and shake out over this upcoming hunting season.

Fosteology I would be interested in buying it if priced right and has a decent reticle. powdr

Pros:
1. as good as glass gets in a riflscope
Your wrong about alot of things but your right about that.
2. as well made as any scope on the planet
Your wrong about alot of things but your right about that.

Cons:
1. piss poor duplex reticle (non illumnated), much too thin
The guy didn't say which reticle he has.
S&B has some of the most useful reticles of any scope maker.
2. eye relief adequate at best
3.75 on anything made after 2001.At all powers, unlike some so called American scopes.
3. heavier than other options
Yes they are heavy.But they dont have any plastic internal components.Unlike some so called American scopes.
4. other scopes in the $1000 and less category work just as well, and sometimes better
Rifle scope manufacturers with inferior product always try to compare themselves to the best.
5. service....send back to Germany
Ashburn, VA U.S.A
Phone +1 (800) 468 - 3450
6. no reticle change option
Wrong again dipstick
7. pricing has become beyond ridiculous.
You get what you pay for.
That being said, if you like it, it's your money, and I hope you enjoy using it. I'm betting you will, for a long time.
Finally...Its his money.


dave

Sakohunter264

I am a very long time user of S&B. ..1986..
If you have any questions.
Feel free.

dave

I thought I remembered you praising a Summit on here one time. Do you really like the VX6 2-12 a lot better than the Summit? I'm interested because I was considering both as a next purchase. I've seen the 3-18 VX6 but not the Summit or the 2-12 VX6 which would be my pick if I went Leupold.

Waiting on my custom 6.5 creedmoor to be completed. McMillan is the hold up.
This will do for now. Appreciate all the feedback.

Congrats on the very new to you scope. I'm curious if your opinion will be the same when you actually use the scope and hunt with it.

First of all it's pretty sad that ol' dave has to schitt his pants every time someone isn't in love with S&B's, a sure sign of insecurity. Read my posts again, no bashing. I based my pros and cons on my experience owning the Summit, and using several S&B's in the field chasing big mule deer with clients, not sitting at the bench. Things have obviously changed since I owned my Sumit several years ago and that's great. I know how I hunt, and what works best for me, and I've proven to myself that high $$$$ glass doesn't spell the difference in the success or failure of a hunt as long as I'm using quality equipment.

IMO the only advantage the S&B has over a VX6, assuming the VX6 remains reliable (so far it's been great) is the glass, and the advantage isn't much. The duplex in the VX6 is light years ahead of the much to thin duplex in the Summit I had, and better for me compared to the 2-3 Classics my hunters have had. I certainly haven't seen every reticle S&B makes by a far stretch. The eyebox is much more user friendly on the VX6 by a wide margin.

Once again I believe S&B's to be a fine piece of equipment, just not for me. Hope that helps.

The Hungarian assembled S&B 6x is a smoking deal on an awesome scope (if your range is max point blank, i.e. no long range work). Its #4 is the most bold available, period. The quick low down on the Hungarian is that S&B has a shop in both Germany and Hungary. The Hungarian shop produces most of the glass and components for the German shop. Some of the more simple scopes (fixed power) are assembled in the Hungarian shop and the German shop. The scopes made in the Hungarian shop are not intended for the US market but there is a legitimate shop from Germany that sales the Hungarian scopes on Ebay. I've bought from them without any problems what so ever and recommend it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schmidt-Ben..._DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256b458eee

Wide opening is 24" @ 100 yards. Thin wire is .6" @ 100 yards

the fact is a rifle scope is a sighting device for your rifle. you use binoculars and spotting scopes to spot and evaluate game. unless you are night hunting or some strange use like that. an elite 4200 or zeiss conquest has all the optical quality you can ever use in a rifle scope. These scopes will get you well beyond legal shooting light. unless the scope offers something other than glass quality I think its a total waste of money to spend that much money on a scope. The most expensive scope I have is a nightforce. this scope offers me the reticle I want and rock solid bet your life on it adjustments and the best zero stop in the business. last time out I had a coyote yipping at 600 yards out in the sage brush, think very very hard to spot and see. I had very little light left. even with NXS glass which is not noted to be the best out there I had plenty of optical quailty to make the shot. I was well beyond legal light on big game. spend the extra money on the best and latest binoculars, its a waste on ubber glass in rifle scopes IMO

I had a S&B 4-16X50 for years and liked it except for the crosshair. It was the varmint reticle, which was too fine for extreme hunting conditions and I don't like the German plex as I think they are too course.

I also like a ballistic reticle over a turret for a hunting rifle, that is why I got the S&B with the varmint reticle. It just wasn't what I wanted so I got a Swarovski Z-6 3-18X50 with the BR reticle and haven't found it lacking anything in quality and performance to the S&B.

Given the choice between years of using both, I stick with the Z-6, but a S&B has no flies on it either...

Thanks JG
In no way did I mean to be critical of your choice. I was just interested in the reasons why since I was considering both scopes. I really wish Leupold would have offered the VX6 in a 1" tube. That would have made it about perfect IMHO.

Excellent perspective. I've got scopes ranging from Leupold, Zeiss, Vortex, Bushnell Elites. In this case I was looking for something I would be wowed by. I've owned several swarovski's and I found the Leupolds to be just as versatile for my hunting needs.

Did the view alone give you a "WOW" factor when compared to your other scopes? I've never looked through a S&B. Was it simply brighter, clearer, more contrast? Interested even if difficult to put into words. I'm trying to develop an itch that needs scratched.LOL

It wowed me, ten times over. Planning a hunting trip this coming weekend, will put it to the test then. The contrast, precision adjustments and clarity are above any scope I have ever looked through. To put it mildly, I plan to own several more in the upcoming years. PC rather own three of these scopes vs. 10 Leupolds.

I loaded 50 rounds of 6.5 creedmoor. Heading to the range in the morning, will post more photos after.

I can't get over the complaints about the size and shape of the reticle. The first focal plane scopes allow you to make the reticle as large or as small as you want. I keep mine on and kill almost all of my game set on 5.75 or just under 6 power. They really do have this figured out.

As far as JG's comments I must defend him somewhat. Even though I think he is wrong about the "Klassic" he is a man that rarely reports something he heard or read on the internet. He's a man that has a chance to look at and thru a lot of scopes during the course of a year. Although looking thru a scope for a few minutes under varying conditions isn't the end all test he personally likes the VX6's. I have no problem w/that...I just prefer the S&B Klassic. It's by far the most versatile and best built scope on the planet in my opinion. powdr

Tell us you never put a scope on something you started to shoot and changed your mind.

How many of us carry a spotting scope when trapesing though the woods. My binos showed me the best deer I have ever seen on the hoof last year. I could tell in the 7X binos the antlers were wider than the ears, which was one of my criteria, but I could not tell if it had four points on each side. I barely had time to turn up the 5-25X scope. When I could tell it had four on each side I fired. The front legs were already behind some brush. After I fired I checked the setting on the scope: 12X.

A few weeks later I was in another state. This time I had to turn it up to 25X to verify. Of course this was after I saw it with the binos. And yes I have a spotting scope that is better than the 5-25X rifle scope. It is for a different purpose than woods walking.

One of my all time favorites. S&B 3-12x50 Zenith with plex.



3X


6X


12X


Just a fantastic hunting scope.

The 2 SB scopes I had (3-12Zenith, 4-16 PH) demonstrated unacceptable glare if aimed remotely close to bright sunlight.
Other than that, and mine may have been an exception, they are top notch in the rest of their feature set.

Name me a scope that doesn't have glare when looking into the sunlight. powdr

Maybe because they've only looked through the Summit and NOT the Klassic? The Summit line is a SFP reticle, while the other S&B scopes are FFP reticles. My Klassic 3-12x42mm has the A8 (plex) reticle, and even on the lowest magnification it's quite good (not thin).

My Zenith's on the other hand at their lowest magnifications (1.1 and 1.5x) are too thin. Reticle becomes useable IMHO at 3 or 4x.

That is not what I said.
My premier lite Tacs and the Diavari I currently use handle it better than those two S&Bs did. I will go on to say that the Zenith was better than the PH in handling glare.
This is my experience.

The one I currently have is a 1.5-6x42 Police Sniper model. It has a modified #4 reticle with added windage hashes. It has very low turrets that are unusual. 1 click gives me 300 yards on the .270 it's on, three clicks gives me 400 yards plus 3 inches using the ammo I hunt with. That's from an inch and a half high at 100. The reticle is in the FFP

It's not a light weight scope. But, it makes no compromises mechanically or optically.

My favorite deer stand offers shots from 25 feet to 600 yards and under what at certain times are the hardest light conditions I have ever had to handle.

I keep the scope set at 1.5x and I shoot it like a using a shotgun If I decide to take a close deer. For that, the FFP reticle at it's least useful setting is near perfect. At range it just gets better. I have decent scopes in both FFP and 2FP. For low light work FFP is way better. It's not even close. If I could afford to put this scope on all my deer hunting rifles, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I think that For deer hunting in Minnesota this is as close to perfect as I have seen in almost sixty years. The weight is a non-issue to me, and if it were I'd put two in the magazine instead of four. I would really appreciate if they could sell them for $300-#400 though.

I did manage to grab up a Meopta Artemis 1.5-6x42 before they disappeared. If ever you see one of them show up used, grab it! They are optically so close to the Zeiss Victory and S&B that you cannot make a distinction. They go for a lot less money though. The last new ones I saw were right at $400.

Miles do you have a picture of your reticle? powdr

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQhBaVvNlo2HiHdeEv8eoFRYFiUtGL7BQsiBmuPdZBB2Nm6qZVdtQ

Ths link will take you to the closest S&B has to it in current production. What I have is a heavier outside, no dot and no trash below the horizontal. Basically a heavy #4 with the windage hashes above the horizontal.

If you need a real picture of what I have send me an email addy and I will go dig it out of the safe and make a picture.

"What do you think of S&B's?"

Mine, optical performance outstanding for a plus. Bulky/heavy, cannot run Alumina flip covers for a negative.

I have one I recently bought used, and like it quite a bit. It is a 6x42 with a #2 reticle. I put it on a Ruger 77 in 7x57, and am looking forward to hunting with it this fall.

When did stop labeling them "made in West Germany" as this one is?

I'd have to guess shortly after West Germany ceased to exist, so after October 1990.

John

Warranty




With the present Schmidt & Bender scope you are purchasing a high-quality product for which we give you a worldwide warranty under the following conditions:

Within 30 years from the date of the purchase we undertake to entertain a permanent stock of the required spare parts and make sure that our service engineers have all the necessary skills and capabilities to perform the required repair work.

Within 2 years from the date of the purchase we grant a warranty with respect to the applicable statutory warranty claims of the buyer.

As far as the scopes of the Zenith, Klassik and Hungaria series are concerned, the warranty with respect to the statutory warranty claims shall be valid within 10 years from the date of the purchase, with the restriction that any jobs and repairs performed as a result of wear and tear will not be covered by this warranty from the beginning of the 3rd year from the date of the purchase.

The warranty will not be valid for damages caused by improper use.

The warranty shall become void after any intervention and repair performed by any repair service we did not authorize to perform the repair.


Based on this I will stick with Zeiss and Leupold.

While you make a very good point as regards riflescopes vs binoculars I certainly wouldn't call it a waste on alpha glass.

One thing you get with a scope like S&B is robustness. Now that mightn't make a hoot of difference if you're going to be shooting from a tree stand or other static position. However, if you want a scope to perform day in day out for years in all kinds of conditions from mountains to plains to forest then you get what you pay for. I have slipped and banged my old Zeiss Diavari into trees, rocks, snow, dirt and it's never missed a beat. The S&B is probably even more rugged than the Zeiss.

Besides, nothing is a waste of money if you can afford it.

Agree completely about buying quality but Zeiss is quality as well and based on the warranty , I will pick it every time over S&B. This is from a guy who really wanted a used S&B but no warranty on a $1200 scope just ain't happening for me. I save too long and sweat too much for that money when there are options willing to back it up for life.

That's fair enough too. You'd think that S&B would offer a better warranty for what they cost.

Love S&B scopes. I have 5 currently in use on various firearms. My favorite reticle is #9.

DonKnows and I bought two of the very first 4-16x50 PMIIs that became available back in 2000.Don uses his every year and for 13 seasons,its been Perfect.
I have used mine on and off over the years and for the last 6 years or so its been a safe queen.I dug it out and mounted it on a new project last year.For the very first vertical adjustment I made the knob was very hard to turn.When it did turn I blew past where I was trying to get.I turned it back and forth some and it seemed to settle in and work fine. This after sitting for 6 years.Scope seemed to function fine but I got a itchy feeling on the back of my neck.Had some down time where I didnt need it and called service in Virginia.I asked about a clean and check.Guy on the phone tells me a standard clean and check for a PMII cost 150 bucks.Plus parts.I boxed it up and sent it in.First time ever sending back a S&B for me.
I got it back 7 days later.
Paper inside said a standard clean and check was performed.And a internal spring was replaced.
No charge.
The thing looks and functions like new.
dave

Dave
That's great and I'm glad they took care of you but what I'm saying is that they aren't cheaper than Zeiss or Swaro and if they can offer lifetime warranties S&B should be able to as well.

I would love to own a Summit. It would be perfect in the specs I want but I can't spend that kind of money and be left to my own in just a couple years. It takes me that long to save that kind of "extra" gun money so it's a big deal to me when I have two other comparable options who will back up their product for life.

I Can't Complain.
The warranty thing doesnt seem to be a problem.
Im sure no expert at usuing it.But they were fine to deal with.
It was kinda explained to me this way.
They have guys wearing out PMIIs at tac matches.Hundreds of matches thousands of rounds.If its there fault there going to take care of you.You crank the knobs enough to wear one out.They still take care of it but you pay for the service.
Its been awhile but I talked to one of there guys and he told me that in there hunting scope line up, they have several of every make and model going way way back.You have a problem and are in a hurry,they just ship you there "backup".Pretty hard to beat that.
They never were cheep.
They never were light weight.
They used to have crap for eye relief.At least thats much better.
I bought a used 1.5-6x42 classic.I got a danged good deal on it and it looks new.Was thinking about sending it in and getting the reticle converted to a TDS.Makes a excellent bump and run scope.The 1.5-6 is a tank and will take abuse like none other.

dave

seems an objective assessment

Yeah but Hawker a guy like you is too cheap to buy one but is readily available to agree w/something you know nothing about. Go peddle you no experience opinions some place else. powdr

+1 on everything he said. My S&B scopes are the best I've ever looked through, bar none. When my 300 RUM ate a $1,800 Swarovski for breakfast 5 years ago, a person on this forum whose reputation is unchallenged told me (via PM)to go with S&B over a replacement Swaro. As I had two other S&B's, I took his advice and have been happy as a puppy with two peters ever since. They are simply the best.

1.5x6 on my 1950 Schoenauer [img:center][/img]

nice.



1.5-6x42 Zenith Flash Dot.


dave

S&B is the best of the best

Plus, if you need a finisher and you are out of ammo, you can beat the critter to death with a S&B

Or drive tent stakes into the ground. A very versatile piece of gear!

Years back I dropped an M40 which moved the base zero. I routinely ran a round robin to verify zero and confirm tracking, and the impact from that drop caused marked movement. May have been from the mass and weight of the rifle upon impact, but the scope was not cheap. Flip-side, last year my hunting rifle was knocked off a cooler in my Jeep, it flipped out the back, struck the rear carrier, then hit the ground hard. Thought I'd have a problem, but I posted a target and shot rounds to find it held zero. The later scope was a Schmidt and Bender. Maybe not as tough as some of the newer military scopes, but I was pleased it took the hard drop without any issues. Maybe not tough enough to drive tent stakes into hard ground, but it does appear to be a rough and tumble scope capable of handling hard knocks.

I often get amused at people that find every little thing wrong w/Schmidt and Bender. They are scope whores who are too cheap and too impatient to save a little to buy the best. They buy, sell and trade all of their lives losing untold hundreds of dollars looking for that ultimate scope. If I were a young man 20-30yrs. old...I would get a good starter scope to hunt w/ but I would put every spare cent I could towards the purchase of a S and B.

The most talked about negative is their weight. We've carried this weight thing so far that we now have 5.5lb rifles that are almost unshootable because they are so light. We see at least 1-2 posts a month on how do I shoot my light rifle. A few extra ounces that keeps a guy from hunting is just unthinkable to me. powdr

I've heard that US Optics,at trade shows, drives a 16 penny spike into a 2x4.Just like you would with a hammer.They have some kind of jig they mount it in, after each demo....
To check it out.
US Optics.
Now theres a heavy scope.

dave

Before 2000.
It was the eye relief.
It was danged short.
In 2000 they introduced a Dangerous Game Scope with 3.75 of eye relief.The rear ocular got .08 bigger in diameter with that change.
Must be alot of Dangerous Game out there, as all the variables have it now.
Oddly enough the fixed power S&Bs still have the 3.15 eye relief.

dave

powdr,

I don�t understand where you are coming from on your post. Most folks don't think like you are suggesting. They go through life without giving it much thought.

When I started on my present project I wanted a rifle with a 26� barrel that weighs less than seven pounds with a scope. Since I wanted the best low light scope I could get with very high magnification I was limited to about 5.5 pounds without a scope. The best combination of high magnification and low weight came in the z5 Swarovski 5-25X52. I arbitrarily set a limit of eighteen ounces for the scope. This one is only 1/10th of an ounce over. I can live with that.

I put a brake on it and fire it with impunity. I accidently knocked it over from a leaning position on a hunting trip. There is a small ding in the bell, now. The next three shot group was about 1 �� at 300 yards and still sighted in.

Ringman, I think that is the problem...they go thru life w/o much thought. powdr

My neighbor is one of those cheap, non thinking, scope whores who has managed to hammer some big bucks, in spite of never owning an S&B, with lowly VXII's, and VX3's. 2 more 180's aren't even up there yet....

[img:left][/img]

My first hunt in Alberta in 85.
I had the only Leupold in camp.
It was Zeiss and Swar on every gun.
Couple of trips outside after dinner showed that coated optics were the way to go.
Coming off Leupold I didnt care much for the FFP stuff at first.
FFP is an acquired taste.
Some guys never acquire it..
I learned to appreciate these scopes in the long Alberta twilight.
The squareheads hunt at night.
There optics are built that way for a reason.

dave

Quite a number of record book game animals have fallen to bows and arrows, absent any scoped rifle. I do have a S&B, and like it a lot, but I'd kill no less game if it were replaced with a simple LEU.

I'm a no scope, low powered variable, or fixed scope guy. Though my S&B has great optics, it is still just a rifle sight. For spotting, judging and observation, I lean on spotters and binos. With these, I strive for great viewing optics. For the rifle scope, I strive for a durable and repeatable rifle sight with optics good enough to resolve a sight picture. There are a number of scope brands and models that cover such needs well.

Best

JG we use to have a saying in coaching when at the chalk board. The man that has the chalk lasts wins. So I'll leave you w/the chalk. Just remember that the Jordan buck was killed w/a Win.25-20 and open sights. So yes Leupolds are fine and I have them as well and kill deer w/them but my favorite rifle and the one I hunt with the most wears a Schmidt and Bender. By the way, I think the thread was about what do you think about S-B not Leupolds. powdr

I can afford any scope out there. Everything we buy is cost v value. For the money, they're just not worth it. Get a Meopta and use the rest to pay for an African Safari. That and OBJECTIVE testing have cleary shown, there are other scopes just as good and for a lot less.

I have 3 Schmidt&Bender with FFP reticles on my hunting rifles and they are absolutely fantastic. Great optics, build like a tank and I just love FFP reticles for hunting....If people love their Leupold scopes than its fine with me....just don�t ever look through an S&B because that will change your opinion on Leupold scopes forever

Evaluating optics (talking glass, ER and eye box, not mechanics) is rather subjective. In the eye of the beholder...

With your Naval aviator Top-Gun eyeballs, I suspect many of the "lesser" scopes are indeed "good enough" for you my friend! However, to my aged and bespectacled eyes, I see a difference.

Besides, since I spent the same on my Klassic as what a new Meopta would cost, it was well worth the $$ to me!

Jorge I cannot imagine a guy having the disposable income to afford a S and B AND NOT OWNING ONE. Might say something about people's hard headedness and pride. powdr

It's called wisdom.

Oh, I don't know. I just don't see the "pride" angle. I've gone as far as spent the bucks on a Z6 and Zeiss Victorys and stopped at that. Then I discovered Meoptas and never looked back. Those and Leupolds. But I'm just a financial insect in the big scheme of things. The owner of the AR Forums (as well as Emirates Air) who can afford to buy not only the entire S&B factory but probably an entire country as well, uses Leupolds.

All kidding and personal preferences aside, I look at the scientific data and the difference (if there is any) is just not worth the extra 3X the price of an S&B. S&Bs labor costs are enormous when compared to what they pay in the Czech Republic or even here in the US. It does make a difference.

I definitely wouldn't call it wisdom...JG. powdr

Powdr,

I don't know you, or how often and where you hunt, so your opinion is an unknown to me. However, regarding Schmidt & Bender scopes we happen to agree regarding their performance. It's the price of S&Bs and the warranty that scares me away. When it comes to operator usability in the field of a specific optic or a comparison of multiple optics I do know what JG does and I respect his opinion more than most because he uses the gear we argue about as his means of putting food on his table and paying his bills. He buys what works and works well for his personal optics. I don't want to know what optics his clients use, I want to know what he uses when he guides his clients on those high-dollar hunts.

I appreciate that Magnum, I really do. The guys, especially powder need to make note of the fact that I admit the S&B's, Hensoldt's, Z6's, Diavari's, etc are fantastic stuff, just not necessary for me. The optics are stunning. I have absolutely no qualms about people liking what they like, buying what they want, etc.....none. We just don't need to lower ourselves to making statements, or insinuating, that people who can afford them but don't use them are scope whores, hard headed, go through life without thinking, prideful, etc. That's ridiculous.

I do agree with jorge as well....Meopta is going to kick some azz in this arena.

This can be misleading. One of our regular posters is a guide in Arizona. He posted here he had to switch to Swarovski binos, despite prefering his Minox 13X56, to satisfy his clientele.

I'd like to see that post RM if you can find it. I can say my hunters are only concerned about me finding game. It doesn't matter if I'm using a Bushy, no optics whatsoever, or SLC HD's. If I'm finding game for them to shoot, they could care less.

The only issue that could potentially hold Meopta back is durability. They haven't been around long enough for a baseline to be established. I have them on two fairly stout "kickers", a 300 Weatherby and a 375 H&H, and so far no issues. There is no difference optically that I can see between them and my Z6 and structurally, they look almost identical.

Emphasis added.

You can lay that to rest.

http://www.meoptasportsoptics.com/en/history.html

Meopta has been around for a long time building sports and military optics. Think foolproof robust.

No affiliation.

Please sell me all your S&B's cheap if ya don't like them!!

I hope so, but I meant HERE in the US market and more importantly on *MY* rifles. So far so good. I am definitively a convert.

Magnumdood in a recent post when others were trying to cut JG nuts out I defended him in his choices, experience and use of his tools. He does however favor Leupolds and that's OK. I did not call anyone hard headed, prideful, or thoughtless but there is an unusual amount of bashing of products that goes on here from people that have no experience w/what they are talking about.

I am not a guide nor have I been, finding most are just friends of people that have land. They usually are no better hunters than other good ones...they just have access to the land. I spent my whole life hunting in Texas and over half of it in deep south Texas...usually not far from the Mexican border. That country will tax the very best men and their choice of guns and optics. During hunting season it can be 100 degrees one day and 5in of rain and mud the next w/everything in between. I earned every buck I killed. I'm not bashing anyone...I guess I'm just stating what has worked for me like JG. I don't however prefer Leupolds or some scope that has only showed up on the scene in the last couple of years. I'm through arguing guys. powdr

I could care less what scope one may choose. But for me, of the dozens of Leups I've used, at least half have failed. I think I have finally rid myself of them all.

They're a good scope ct but just like the last eight pages... I doubt I could change your mind. They are well priced for a life time of use w/a lifetime warranty unsurpassed by any other. My brother and I have used them since nineteen seventy two w/wonderful service and killed many, many game animals here in Texas. If a man could only have one scope for ever he could sure do worse than a Leupold. powdr

Many times when I read about guys using Leupolds for XX number of years and not experienceing any failures causes me to think they have no idea when a scope is not functioning correctly.

THIS..Best scope value out there.

Leupolds are really fun because you get to guess where point of impact will be after you adjust the controls.

I would buy a S&B if they would step up to the same warranty as Swaro and Zeiss. All comparable scopes, except for the crap warranty of S&B. Bushnell has a better warranty.

Which model?

I currently have three S&B riflescopes (2 Zeniths and 1 Klassic). Knock on wood, I have only sent one scope in for a check-up, and that was the Klassic I purchased used. They performed a complete cleaning and insured proper mechanical function. Cost me the shipping one way.

One of my Zeniths I've used pretty hard. It's fell from a tree stand, and bounced around in the truck as well as few knocks and drops in rough terrain. No issues. They're built phuggin' hella stout!

Flip side, I've used Swarovski and Leupold customer service/warranty numerous times. Z3 and PH Swaro's for busted erector springs, same for Leupold as well as reticle crooked right out the shrink wrapped box! I've even had to send Leupolds in more than once as they failed to address the issue it was sent in for!

My Z6 scopes have been fine thus far, however they haven't seen enough use out in the field. So I'll have to reserve judgement on them for awhile...

May just be my "bad luck", but I've had more issues with Leupold and Swarovski scopes and none (knock on wood) with S&B. Just my observation and first hand experience. YMMV

pick one.

Got a S&B Few Month Ago.I've Always Run A Swarovski's. It Seems Their 3-9-42 With 4A Does All I Need.But I Have To Admit After Playing With The S&B. This Might Change.I Have To Say The S&B Glass Is Better. and I've Owned a Ton Of Swarovski's..

Well, personally I can afford any scope too but that doesn't mean I want to buy the most expensive scope out there just because it is. That's just plain illogical and stupid. S&B do make superb scopes, but so do many others.

I've been deer hunting since I was 16 and I'm now 61 and hunt all year round, because there is no closed season where I live. I have never had a problem with a Leupold, Zeiss, S&B, Leica or Swarovski. I have had problems with a few other brands that I won't mention here as it was a long time ago and they may have improved.

I once phoned Leupold to see about sending a scope in for a reticle change and the lady who answered told me, "it's pronounced Loo-pold sir not Lee-a-pold". Sounded like one of my old English teachers from high school. Anyway, excellent service. I generally couldn't care less about brands as long as they perform. Crystal clear optics are nice to have but mechanical reliability is more important to me. Good to have both though.

Quite often a case of diminishing returns. For those on a budget, I think the Leupold VX-6 is an excellent scope (their best hunting scope ever) and only very marginally behind the top tier European scopes optically. Think their Fire Dot system is extremely well designed. Haven't tried a Meopta Meostar R2 but plan to as they seem rugged and optically excellent.

Ultimately, you pay your money and you take your pick. If you can afford a S&B and it fits your spec requirements then by all means buy one.

Just got a new Swarovski Z6 2.5-15x56 - this will be going on my next 300WM build. I have to say, the glass is pretty damn impressive on this Z6!!!!

Congrats on the new scope. That 56mm sounds great. Do you have another very good scope you can compare it with and let us know how it does in low light?

Thanks Ringman!!

I have used just about every brand out there & to be honest, I am a huge fan of Nightforce and Schmidt & Bender scopes!! I was looking for a good lowlight hunting scope and from some research, the Z6 seemed to be the front-runner.

I love everything about Nightforce, but for this rifle I will be building, I did not need the long range functions that NF are known for. As far as S&B scopes, they are very high on my list, but their hunting reticles are too heavy for me, so I went the the 4A reticle in the Swarovski Z6.

We'll see how it goes when rifle gets built & scope gets put to use........

Optically alot are comparable.
We can't see their guts...
A lot of people in forward areas use S&b and nightforce as well as Leopold

S&b was then far away winner based on testing for the usmc

Maybe that means nothing? Just pointing out a fact

just saying...Snipers hunt with s&b's "thick reticles" pretty effectively

I like the name. It sounds like a prestigious law firm. After I get Rolls Royce with a chauffeur, ..... I will surely have my servant order one for me.

Always amusing around here. S&B doesnt need to be compared to "value" scopes, they stand all on their own.

Not sayin i'd put one on every rifle even if i could afford it, but check their specs, and if it meets your needs for the rifle you want to put it on rest assured you're getting the best money can buy..They simply do not make a scope for every rifle IMO, wish they did tho.

they also

-dont make different "grades of optics", like riflemen,vx1, vx2, vx-III,VX-3, vx-7,vx-6, etc
-produce less scopes in a year than some produce in a month
-dont use fancy marketing hype like diamondcoat and index matched lens system
-dont have scopes with a lot of travel vs comparable competition
-dont have lightweight scopes comparably speaking

As dave7mm stated we have the first 2 S&B 4 to 16 X 50 PMII's that hit the shores of the USA. I hunt with mine every year (for 14 years) in PA for deer and 6 times I've been to Texas hog hunting with it. I have it mounted on a custom built 300 win mag with a hunter class stock and a 29" S/S barrel. I use a 180gr ballistic tip leaving the muzzle at 3200 fps. I don't carry this gun to hunt with so I could care less about weight. The scoped rifle weighs just shy of 15lbs. When we hog hunt in Texas we go out about an hour before sunset and hunt till about 2am. You want low light conditions, that's low light. I have never had a problem seeing a hog in the dark and the FAT cross hair is a HUGE plus. The scope does not have an illuminated reticle. It has a mil dot.

When hunting in Africa in 2004 I had my 375 H&H Ackley Improved with a 1.5 to 6 X 42 S&B and a 7mm mag with a Swarovski 2.5 to 10 x 42 with a duplex reticle. Although I could see fine in low light with the Swarovski the fine cross hair would make it next to impossible to hit anything. It simply disappeared in low light conditions. Hindsight is 20/20. I should of bought the Swarovski with FATTER crosshairs. One afternoon we were looking for a Zebra. We didn't see any nice males so my PH and myself decided to go and look over a meadow in the hopes a nice Bushbuck would come out. We looked over the same meadow on prior late afternoon's and my PH knew Bushbucks frequented the area. I wanted at least a 16" Bushbuck. Since I had my 375 we didn't go back to the lodge and change out to the 7mm mag. We sat among some trees overlooking the meadow and saw about 8 Bushbuck but none were large enough. As dusk became dark I looked across the meadow through my scope to see what I thought might be the one. I whispered to the PH about him. He couldn't make it out with his binocs so I handed him my rifle. I had to laugh inside as to the following events as I have seen it many times before. He looked through the scope and determined in was about 14", not what we were after. Then he looked above the scope (couldn't see the animal at all), back on the scope and repeated this several times. Finally he looked at me and said: That's amazing.

That's why you buy a S&B scope.

I did end up shooting a 15" Bushbuck a few days later with the 7mm mag at 220 yards in broad daylight. My PH called it at 15" (how he does that I don't know) and I decided to take it since it was the last day of the hunt.

I used to use inferior Leupold scopes in the past. I will NEVER make that huge mistake again.

I may be looking to sell my 4 to 16 X 50 PMII in the near future because I want to get the 5 to 25 X 56 PMII. It will go on the 300 win mag.

In the 14 years I have been using the 4 to 16 X 50 PMII I have never had a problem with it. I can't say that about the inferior Leupolds I used to use.

I should add I have one other Swarovski scope: A 6 to 24 X 50 target scope mounted on my 22 CHeetah which I use to kill woodchucks out to 675 yards. That rifle/scope combo weighs around 14lbs.

Everybody compares themselves to a S&B for one reason: They are the best.

DonKnows

IMO S&B glass is generally over rated. But then you have to take into consideration that most of the over-rating is being done by folks who have never used a S&B.

I have never found S&B glass to be one bit better than other Euros like high end Zeiss or Swarovski. It is very much the same IMO. This is not to say that it is't very good. It just isn't nearly what some like to claim that it is.

IMO, from doing side by side field comparisons, March glass has it all over S&B.........

When you get to the "nth" degree of optics, I can't imagine anyone having it all over someone else....

Truth is at that level they are all so good that any preferences are largely subjective


March does have variable eye relief and finicky critical eye relief at higher powers. So it's got that going. For it, which is nicel

I wouldn't buy an s&b because i think it would allow me to see or shoot something that I couldn't see through a zeiss swaro etc...there are other reasons but optics alone, no

Here is a pretty thorough test

Eyes sure see things different

"The March Scope also failed to impress optically, finishing towards the bottom of the list in image quality. It had one of the narrowest field of views."

"Among the specific scopes I tested, the optical clarity of the Zeiss and the Schmidt and Bender 5-25�56 scopes were in a class above the rest (see the optical post for more details on that). It also had one of the largest field of views."


http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/09/19/tactical-scopes-field-test-results-summary/

fwiw,
I am working on this as we speak. I would actually appreciate anyone who has a stake in Schmidt Bender to take the time to write a letter in regards to the unacceptable warranty situation. You can mail it to Schmidt Bender USA at 741 Main Street Claremont, NH 03743. Put them to Marcia's attention and request they be forwarded to Biebertal, Germany.

The "new and improved" warranty is the result of a younger management team. We need to let them know that 2 years on PMIIs and 10 years on Hunting Scopes is unacceptable. Compare them to the competition... This is likely the single dumbest thing the German part of Schmidt Bender has ever done.

We can live with the standard 10/30 warranty, however, 2/30 is completely unacceptable...

I believe they make the finest scope on the market, however, the warranty situation needs to addressed. There is a movement afoot to get this changed, however, your input would be greatly appreciated. It need not be a book. Short and to the point generally wins the day...

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

Still love my S&B, but to be fair and add to my post from last year, this year I did knock the scope five minutes off zero from a hit that was much less severe than the one I described from the knock it took the first season. So though I think it pretty tough for a variable, I no longer kid myself into thinking it bomb proof, as they can be knocked askew.

Best

fwiw,
I grew up on a farm. I was given a John Deere 4840 with duals and 1,200 hours on the clock, a new IH Case 485 Disk, and a new 6 row Brillion Cultipacker when I was 12. My grandfather, a man to ride the river with, reminded me that anything, despite how heavily built, could be beat into submission. He told me that even an anvil could be beat to pieces if you took the time... You sure as hell can beat anything from Nightforce or Schmidt Bender into submission, however, both brands will typically take MORE than their share of abuse...

Regards, Matt in Virginia.

Matt

I am that guy spoke of, in a rubber room with two ball bearings, lose one and break the other. Kinda the reason I switched to S&B on my variable. Love the scope.

For the record, the March scopes I looked through, none were the 42mm version. I believe all were 52-56mm. And they did not exhibit finicky eye relief.

I like to form my opinions based on actual experience, not from reading internet tests. Especially those conducted indoors at 100yds with eye exam charts from sources I hardly consider credible.

One of the best things I found of the March scopes I looked through was the wonderful color rendition and resolution compared side by side to other scopes. Something that was obviously not trly tested nor hardly even discussed in said test. In addition, I would find it very hard to believe that any of the scopes in said test would not allow for very clear, acute reading of a black and white eye chart at 100 yds. under lighted conditions. Or that such a "test" could even actually depict anything of the true optical quality of said glass.

My own "tests" were outdoors, at various/unlimited ranges, utilizing actual colors, and varying degrees of ambient light. You know, real world conditions....

And yet there was a descending order of resolving detail by a cross section of observers.

I like real world tests. My very own a couple/three years ago told me that I could kill a 185"+ muley buck just as dead at dusk thirty with a 3-9xVari X IIc as I could with my hunter's S&B.

So then I guess we can surmise a vari-x II IS as good as an s&b! I guess the debate is over. Additionally, I had a Bushnell sportview as a kid, it never left me wanting....
there is no right answer here I believe were all different


Lastly, If vari-x II and vari-x III were optically that great why did they launch vx-III and vx-3, the vx-7, vx-6, index matched lens system, etc...just marketing hype?

Exactly what do you think you could NOT see on a B&W chart at 100 yds in controlled lighting with such high end scopes? Do tell, because I can read the fine print on targets with a lot lesser scopes.

That test is a joke IMO. As is everthing I have ever read on that website...

Here are a couple things I just found on March scopes. First time I have ever read/googled it, or care to. All I truly know is what I have actually seen in person. I do not feel these links/findings make me wrong or right. Take them at face value. They merely show that I'm not the only one who feels March is very good optically.

Optics are a VERY subjective thing. Something I confirmed yet again just yesterday, but that is another story.

Here is a link referring to a March scope I have some experience with. The 40x52. I agree with everything stated in the text, 100%:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/optics/target-scopes/

And here is a quote/link from Ilya Koshkin I found. I know many here are familiar with him:

"Optically, March is as good or better than ANY scope I have seen to date, given the same size objective lens".

http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=145

Again, these are just opinions. Opinions that I happen to agree with.

Take them for what you will.

As for S&B, they are obviously great scopes. I just get tired of hearing from those whom I'm certain don't know $hit about them, proclaim them the best simply based on hearsay or price tag.

They may well be the toughest, most repeatable scopes ever made. I honestly couldn't say. But I can say, that no S&B glass has ever impressed me like the 52-56mm March glass I have looked through. YMMV.

I will happily keep on slumming my NF NXS and fixed Mark 4 M1s....

I dont know what the best scope is. It might be March. The title of this thread is "what do you think of S&B's", so thats why people are talking about them. As far as March, I have no need to hunt with a 52-56mm objective (heard the poor eyebox was 42mm version), i have just never needed or wanted an obj that big on a sporter rifle. Plus glass from multiple vendors is so good that a 40-42mm will get most what they want.
I also dont need adj parallax and a 10x erector on a big game scope..I personally dont shoot far enough to warrant it. Others here may need those extras...

I dont slum because I just have one dedicated big game rifle (crazy I know) so I figure no matter what I have, i have less money in my setup than others that own 5,10,15 rifles yet "cant afford" a particular scope.....

Agreed. 40mm is the largest scope I hunt with......

My favorite size range as well. Almost all of my rifles for BG hunting now wear a scope with obj in the 40mm-42mm range. My two favorite scopes are the Elite 2.5-10x40 and I recently bought a Leica ER 2.5-10x42. If I can't get it done with those, it is long past legal shooting times where I hunt.

Don't go there.

I run the 12-42x56 NSX
The 10-60x52 March and the 5-25x56 PMII for 1000 yard BR.
I like them all.
But optically in my opinion.
The PMII has a slight edge in the color/contrast contest.
YMMV.

dave

S&B telescopic sight is to scope what Mont Blanc writing instrument is to a pen. I do think it would look lovely on Westley Richards, Holland & Holland or Hartmann & Weiss magazine rifle.

There are few other scopes out there with the same optical and build quality. Other scopes may meet your needs just fine. For my money, since the Zeiss Victory line went to second focal plane, S&B is the only scope out there that meets my expectations for a hunting scope.

I really like my PM II, it's excellent optically, dials dead on, and I like the reticle.

I had a Summit but sold it. Great scope, but for that kind of money I want one with more versatility, as in the ability to dial.

I really like my Zeiss Victory HT but for the money just as with S&B it busts just as easy as any other variable. Other than the "I got a Zeiss HT" or "I got a S&B and love it" I can see no reason to bust one of these once a year over a $1200 VX-6 these days.

"It busts just as easily as any other variable"

Can you elaborate? Did you bust it? How?

Are all variables built to the same specs from millet to hensoldt?

Optically a vx6 is great I know, more Curious on your experience with variables

Nothing crazy about having one dedicated big game rifle. In fact, it makes a lot of sense.

my thought is .."I can only pull one trigger at a time" and eliminates having any crossover between cartridges (grins)

As the old saying goes, "Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it!" There's a lot of truth in that old cliche.

I too only use one big game rifle, a Sako 85 Black Bear .308. It's phenomenally accurate, handles well and isn't too heavy. I don't shoot past 350 yards max so it's all I need or even want in a deer rifle.

308 here as well...

The only downside I can think of is not being able to shoot while your one rifle is cooling down at the range.

That, and "variety is the spice of life."

I own two S&B Summits and one 3-12x42 Precision Hunter. As far as optical quality my 63 year old eyes see marginally better with the S&B's over the VX-III/VX-3 Leupolds I have. I am sure younger eyes would see more. What I like about the S&B's is that the adjustments are precise.

All, and I mean all of my Leupold scopes move more or less than what the dial increments should be. If I move them up ten clicks some will move about 7 clicks worth, some will move 12 clicks worth, some will settle in somewhere close after a few shots. I have perfected the old tap on the scope with fist to settle the dials trick. I have found that once zeroed and settled in Leupold scopes tend to stay zeroed, although I am not very hard on my scopes when hunting.

When I purchased my first S&B Summit I was amazed when I made elevation and windage adjustments the shot move exactly that amount. It made zeroing the scope a pleasure and I left the range with great confidence it was right on the money and would stay that way. That is why I like my S&B's.

Now that said I still purchase Leupold scopes. They give me enough optical quality to do what I want to do. You can bet if I return to another horseback elk hunt my rifle will be wearing one of the S&B's.

the thing is that I am just no longer inclined to believe that any variable telescope is tougher in actual use than any other. if you pay $2500 bucks for a variable will it withstand a drop any better than a $500 variable both from reasonable vendors? Don't think so. I hit my Victory HT its a lot of money and its back to Germany, does S&B have some magic pixie dust that makes their variables immune to a 4 foot drop on a hard surface?

Ok

Do you think that's the only thing that will make a scope go belly up? If so, you have a point.

No sir, I am cynical regards them all these days.

Given same/same engineering and build, a fixed will always be more reliable and durable. However, it's never the same. There are variables that are as reliable and durable as any fixed power made. Now when talking variables designed for deer hunting.... Small differences. The only thing that the masses talk about is "glass". As if some how small differences in view will help you hike to find the animal or ensure that the bullet goes where you want. But that's all they crow about and so that's all the manufacturers put their money towards. When people start caring about things that matter- zero retention, correct adjustments, return to zero, durability, etc., then companies will start putting effort to that.


But they won't. People don't shoot. The most "use" that the vast majority of scopes see is going from a padded safe, to a padded case, to a padded seat, out of the padded case to be placed gingerly on a padded rest, back to a padded case on a padded seat, into a padded safe. That ain't use. Nor close.

"When people start caring about things that matter- zero retention, correct adjustments, return to zero, durability, etc., then companies will start putting effort to that."

Don't forget data books! LOL

I could not agree more with most all your posts.

I will never be able to afford S&B's so when I am flush it is Nightforce, when I am broke it is SWFA.

I just wish weaver would put the microtrac into a less expensive 6x with 1/4 moa's and get a nice eye box going. As you have stated many times; I don't much care about glass either.

My most accurate rifles were built by Robert Gradous. The 6.5x47 has a March tactical 10x60 The 260 has a S&B 12X50 While my 6br from McWorther has a bench 10x60.

All our gorges scopes so it is really hard to say which one is better than the other..

Last time I took my March out with Robert we could clearly see the six legs on a fly that had landed on my target 100 yards away. You can not expect much better clarity than this from any scope