OK... If ED glass is literally only the coatings, I can understand that those are rare earth metals being applied...

BUT - what the frick... It costs 600-1k extra to get those coats.. I'm starting to think we are getting screwed somehow...

Pricing seems to be out of line to me.

As long as people are willing to pay the price, why would a manufacturer lower it.

ED or Hd ...Hd is fluorite glass

Other way around. HD can mean whatever the maker wants.

Correct

It's not necessarily the glass itself that increases the cost, as the glass is not really that expensive. Flourite glass is brittle, cracks easily, and is hard to work with. The result is more waste, extra machine time and labor, etc.

There is no standard in the optics industry about what 'HD' means, so it really means nothing.

ED = Extra low dispersion ... IIRC

Which is generally more about more coatings....

It doesn't mean it's put together by craftsman anymore either, it just means they used multiple coatings in the correct order as to not disperse light.

the truth is you don't have to keep reaching for the latest gimmickry....your 10/15 year old scope is just fine...probably better build quality than the new stuff ..the rest is just advertising hype to separate you from your money...

The first part is correct, ED is extra low dispersion. This refers to the bulk lens materials ability to focus different colors on the same focal plane preventing chromatic aberration. It does not mean coatings.
ED lenses are made of expensive grown crystals that are more delicate than most other lens materials, They need to be mounted without mechanical stress so that also cost more.
The order of the coatings are to reduce reflection of the incoming light. The coatings are too thin to appreciably shift colors.
For the most part, ED glass is a good buy and worth the expense.

In the past quality glass often contained lead.
A good example would be the Zeiss 10X56B T*P Night Owls.
They were heavy--I know--I packed a set on several sheep and goat hunts. The view was killer, but their weight was brutal.
Lead has been removed from the manufacturing process due to the hazards involved. The end result is the advent of flourite glass. Lighter, but as was mentioned prior, difficult to handle and manufacture.

"HD" means nothing practically speaking if the glass isn't manufactured with flourite-flourine ions etc., and an intricate coating process.
There is sleeper glass out there like Minox that utilizes flourite and quality coating processes at a lower cost.

Lead was eliminated due to environmental regulations in the European Union. Lead would make the lens more dense and help reduce chromatic aberration.
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1149536

That's why China can produce quality lenses at reduced cost. They don't have environmental regulations to deal with.

The Chinese lenses as a general rule range somewhere between kinda [bleep], and complete dog [bleep].

"New and Improved" means whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean; and, generally speaking, means a higher cost to the consumer. Companies do, and should, charge what the market will bare. So as to not sound like some hypocrite, I do want to buy $2,000 scopes for $300.

You could not be more wrong.

More wrong? Wrong is an absolute...

Name a Chinese Sport optic lense that is as good as a Zeiss HT, Swaro EL, or Leica Ultravid.

The only asian glass I've looked through that impressed me was a Kowa Promiar, and they are Japaneese..

WRO- are you saying that ONLY Zeiss HT, Swaro EL and Leica Ultra are good and EVERYTHING else is dogchit? That's what your post says! There is some amazingly good Chinese optics out there. They don't generally have the fit and finish of the better European stuff but they do have some optically good stuff.

As far as HD, ED and Fluorite. Most can mean whatever they want it to mean. True Fluorite crystals were developed for camera lenses and were tough to work with. They were better. Now, almost all "Alpha" glass is just glass but denser, high quality glass. Coatings have improved to help with the glass itself.

Lead did not make your binoculars heavy. Lead was removed as it was hazardous to use in manufacturing and problematic in disposal. I have some very heavy binoculars and they are simply more robust than others. Some would call it overkill.

Pretty much, if it isn't schott from germany, its all the same [bleep], different package.

You still couldn't be more wrong.

Name a good one, at least equal to a meostar..

WRO,

Schott has several dozen glass factories all over the world, including China. Are you saying Schott factories outside of Germany make schitt glass?

Mule Deer,

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. You can overcome ignorance with information. But ignorant prejudice is stuck like glue.

Hopefully for WRO's sake, his comments were made out of ignorance.

And I hate to answer ignorant questions, but the optics on the Vanguard Endeavor EDII, Zen Ray Prime ED, Bushnell Elite Prime ED, Leupold McKinley ED, Bushnell Legend ED, and Leupold Mojave Pro Guide ED are all fantastic.

He probably doesn't realize that a Zeiss Conquest HD binocular is made by Kamakura, Japan, either.

You have low standards for your optics, I excluded the conquests on purpose as 1.They don't have schott german glass, and 2. they kinda suck for the price point.

I've looked through most of those, same [bleep] glass, different package. Adaquate for a guy who hunts in the whitetail woods, not work a [bleep] out west.

You've gone from ignorant to clueless very quickly.

For what I do, and my hands on experience in the field, they're not in the same league. Schitt maybe a harsh take, but great or even good is not words I would use to describe any of the listed examples, they are all plagued by CA, Edge distortion, tinted colored view, and they don't do detail well.

If you can glass 6 hours a day with a set without eye strain and fatigue sustained for a week, then its a good set of glass, from my experience, I haven't used a set of Asian glass that won't burn your eyes out. I'll have a set of highlanders to use this upcoming season so that'll neat to try out.

So why don't you tell us which binoculars use Schott glass from China, and which binoculars use Schott glass from elsewhere that you have done all these field comparisons with. Should be interesting.

I get it, you have low standards for glass and what you find to be "Quality" and "Good" I think is dog [bleep]. I've looked through several of the "quality" pieces of glass you mention, I could see bulls through my not [bleep] german 8's that you could not see through the 10 power Zen Ray's my client brought elk hunting. The mojaves have so much edge distortion, 30% of the lense is unusable. The chinese made Terras, which have chinese made schott glass, in them have absolutely no redeeming qualities.

If they work for you, that's your deal, just don't try and tell people your Daewoo is a BMW..

Okay, that right there was funny!

I have a sense of humor, and that was funny. However, he's gone from ignorant, to clueless, to living in dreamland.

The more you think you "get", the farther you "get" from reality. My low standards include SV's, SLC HD's, Kowas, Meopta S2's, Leica's, Gold Ring HD's, etc, etc etc.

WRO,

Since you have experience with binoculars have you had experience with scopes? If so, what is your experience with the Swarovski z5 5-25X52, Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X30, and Leupold VX-6 4-24X52? How do they stack up to you?

I've had over 130 hunters in the field the past 12 years, so I've BTDT. That statement is total BS. If you can't find game through a Zen ED, Mojave ED, Elite ED, etc, it's a glasser problem, not the glass.

My mule deer guide last year was using a pair of Leupold BX-2 Cascades. He was picking out bedded muleys at over 1000yds - he would then have to spend 2-3 minutes explaining to me where they were, till I finally saw them also. His eyes didn't burn out of his head either.

David

Hardly any, I have a z5 3.5x18, a baush and lomb, and and old leupy..

I look through them to kill stuff, nothing more, nothing less.

I've read enough of your posts bashing your z5, you can save me the hassle of retelling it.

How big of country do you hunt?

WRO,



So then you agree the new Swarovski is no better than two other brand scopes many years old. Thanks for answering the question.

You answered a question I didn't ask. The question was not about killing stuff. The other guides here seem to find stuff to kill with glass less costly than you need.

I will say the only binoculars that gave me a WOW! experience I think was the Swarovski 8.5X43. I might be off on the size. But when I compared them with my Nikon 7-15X, outside the store, the glass on the Nikons was good enough when I turned up the magnification the Swaros could not keep up.

Not sure what you mean, but it's big enough.....

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My z5 is superior to my other scopes in low light and clarity, plus it's light. I would have never bought one, if I hadn't run them side by side.

Go to any outfitter camp in the west, 5 to 1, guys are running German scott glass to everything else.

I'm confused jg, if cheap Asian glass was just as good, why do I see a set of Swaros and a zeiss spotter in that picture?

Never said it was just as good. I said it is not (bleeep) glass, which is true.

Then what is your definition of [bleep] glass?

I started reading this thread because I wanted to see what was the best binocular. I have some Vortex Diamondbacks. I like them. They seem bright and clear. I have a Leupold Rogue 10 X 50. I like them. They are bright and clear, but they are big and heavy. I have Steiner 8 x 20 Safari. I LOVE them. They are small, light, bright, and clear. I have a Leitz Trinovid (Leica)10 X 40B. They are by far, the most expensive. They are wonderfully well made of the best materials by German craftsmen. But to tell you the truth, I can't see any better out of them than I can most of the others and I much prefer using the little Steiner's MOST OF THE TIME.

I have concluded that price and maker brand name isn't the determining factors in deciding on which is the best binocular. It's the one I like and therefore use most that is the best binocular FOR ME. It may not be for you however.

I have also discovered that the differences in visual quality between the mid to upper level brands are very small. When you factor in the huge price differences between them, the mid level binoculars seem to be a very good deal for what you get at that price point.

I have a neighbor who is a retired doctor. He is also a big bird watcher. He just got a Zeiss Victory SF 10 X 42 binocular. I borrowed them and compared them to what I have. After spending about two hours out on the deck looking across the valley at the mountain side, I decided that I couldn't tell much difference. They are nice and bright. They are obviously very well made of the best materials.

When I returned them to him I asked how he came to choose them over other binoculars. He said, well I looked at all of them in the catalog and they were they most expensive ones, so I figured they were the best. Then I asked, if you don't mind Doc, what did they cost? I almost fell down when he said $3300.00!!!

Boys, other than their obvious build quality and material selection, I could NOT TELL any visual difference in them and my older model Leitz Trinovids, or for that matter, in them and the Leupold Rogue. Now that may just be because I can't tell the difference. But if I can't tell, why in the heck would I want to spend $3300 bucks? I'm betting that most of you can't tell the difference either. If you didn't know which was which so the price tag couldn't influence your decision, I'm betting that you would choose a binocular in the mid price range and be perfectly happy with it.

I do admit however, that out of the binoculars I have and like best, I like the Leitz and Steiner's which are German made and if I have my choice, I will always choose German made. I do that because in my experience, they are made of the finest materials by the most careful, almost anal, craftsmen. If I am going to have to pay more for a binocular, at least I'll get that much out of the money even if I can't see out of them any better.

JGRaider wrote: "If you can't find game through a Zen ED, Mojave ED, Elite ED, etc, it's a glasser problem, not the glass."
---

Well-stated...and absolutely true...

Yep. It's true. But a lot of the enjoyment we get from hunting is using the equipment we have. And when we have what we believe to be the best, we can make that difficult shot because we have absolute confidence in our equipment. That goes a long way in being able to make that shot. When you know you can make it, you usually can.

Heck, I am the same way about the rifle I shoot, the cartridge it is chambered for, the knife I use, the boots I wear, and I'll bet that most of you are too.

So when you see other hunters who are absolutely confident that what they are using is the very best, believe it!!! FOR THEM, it is the best and THEY BELIEVE IT and that makes them dang good hunters and shooters.

I hunt with guys who use the most expensive German scopes, but I NEVER DOUBT what my Leupold can do, will do, and has always done. I know if I do my part, it will do its part very well indeed.

After considering the many binoculars available and the sizes I chose a Nikon Monarch 7 8X30. I don't think I could be happier. They don't have the WOW! factor the Swarovski 8.5X43 give, but they are half the weight and were $2,000 cheaper.

I've had the same experience. I was on a bear hunt with a very well-known guide, employed by a very well-known outfitter celebrity. The guide was using Leupold BX2s to glass, for hours. I was using very expensive Leicas. He saw more bears than I did and used my binocular some, and commented favorably on them (of course).

After the hunt I let him choose a number of different ways to collect his well-deserved tip, including one option that included me giving him my bins.

He didn't want my bins.

There are other factors involved. Eyesight is a huge, as well as experience looking for a specific color or hue of an animal.
I bought my son (29 y/o) a pair of Minox BL10X44BR bincs about 5 years ago.
Doug had them for $199 and for that price (and a lifetime warranty) I figured my kid would really like them.
He has and does.
We were on Kodiak together this Fall and he consistently outglassed me with my Leica Geovid 10X42 HDs.
Why? He's got 20/10 vision! And he has better color detection. The blacktail bucks he was picking out in thick cover had me shaking my head.

It made all of the difference, he bagged a fine deer due to his uncanny eyesight; his Minox glass, while decent, had less to do with it.
Gratuitous photo....

Same/Same, though my Zeiss Conquest HD's aren't as nice as the Leica's. My Vortex rangefinder he did like, we settled on that and some cash...

David

I have a Leica UltraVid HD in 7 x 42 and a Zeiss Victory
FL in 7 x 42, I gave my Zeiss Victory FL in 8 x 42 to my Dad.

I like the Leica HD the best. Do these have German Schott
glass in any of them. I thought FL meant Fluoride Lenses.

And HD in the Leica UltraVid meant FL lenses and AquaDura coatings?

I don't think JG ever stated that Asian glass was "just as good".

There are guys that you meet, get to know and appreciate their experience and insight and JG is one of those guys. Not only is he a Texan, and a Red Raider at that, he is a very experienced and accomplished hunter and has consistently taken BIG deer in an area that is very difficult to glass and hunt. I trust his opinion on optics 100%.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion and if yours differs then tell us why. Don't just argue for the sake of arguing

Yes they will have Schott glass. They both have fluorite lenses.

WOW. They would be basically useless for lowlight whitetail deer hunting where I hunt. The Swaro's would excel. Where are you getting your pricing?

I believe you are exactly correct. A lot does depend on eye sight and knowing what to look for.

Oldelkhunter,



I don't hunt whitetail deer. The Swarovski was at Sprotmans Warehouse for $2,340. I looked on line for the Nikon for about an hour and came up with $345.

I hunt significantly different county than what he does most likely, I've literally spotted bulls at 3 miles plus (verified on the topo map) with 10's, grabbed my clients glass cheap glass and could only see a blur at that distance. Same thing with spotters side by side, the difference is huge IMHO. If your only looking 300 yards for short periods, then any old piece of glass will work. On the sheep hunts I've been on, we start our glassing most of the time at a mile plus, with 3 or 4 spotters and lots of glass to compare side by side. Of what I chase, mule deer in the steep open stuff are hardest to spot as they tend to blend in well and with out good detail and colors at 1500 yards, you literally cant see them.

I'll be the first to admit, I am a gear snob and have no use for gear that doesn't perform better well. I only get 30-40 days a year in the field and I want to make the best use of them.

Let's see some pics WRO.

I had the opportunity to spend an afternoon/evening swapping binos back and forth with a couple other guys while glassing for bears this past Sept. Although my refurbished 7x30 and 8x30 SLC's were better, the Monarch 7 8x30's one of the guys was using were very good--especially considering the weight and street price of the Nikon's.

Casey

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z7PXTiU-yVONLSWJW2jAkKIdK2dZZs1v-w/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B258oPVRCPQGbkY0UURFUGlKT2s/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z7PXTiU-yVONLSWJW2jAkKIdK2dZZs1v-w/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B258oPVRCPQGUTdZMXdRQW9nR2s/view?usp=sharing

Here are a few, I don't know how to get them to imbed.

When my boy and I are glassing for mule deer,he with Nikon's,and me with my leica geovids,I can consistently start 10 minutes earlier, and glass 10 minutes later. The difference between good glass and alpha glass is amazing. Those geovids are almost night vision.

atse,




Tell us more, please. What was he using and what were you using? Size of glass and magnification.

I have some that will smoke my Nikon 8X30. But I don't normally carry my Alpen Teton 10X50. If I did want something better than the 10X50 then I could switch to some Minox 15X58 and blow them away.

His are Nikon monarchs. 10x42. Mine are 10x42 leica geovids HD b.

What do you expect for $1500 difference in glass?

Exactly what I got. It was worth every penny.

It doesn't take much to be better than a Monarch, unless it's a Monarch 7.

True,but the same has held true with other glass that I've compared in the mid range as well. That being leupold wind rivers, and an older pair of steiners. Its hard to tell people the difference if they haven't seen it for themselves,especially at first and last light.