I was reading the boutique optics companies missing huge opportunity thread and was going to post this there and decided to start a new thread instead.

For those who do not know me, very quickly, I grew up in the Camera and Optics industry. Camera Land was established in 1957 and we are a family owned and operated business. I personally started coming into the store and learning the business when I was 8 years old on weekends and school brakes and have been in the business ever since. That was in 1971.
Since then I have seen the 'Great and well established" disappear. In cameras there is no longer Pentax, Minolta or Konica. Big powerhouse brands. Now there's Sony and Panasonic in cameras, which were just electronic companies. Fuji who was really only film is now a strong camera brand. Kodak, which was probably one of the biggest household names is basically all but gone.
Times change and companies that change with the times grow and those that do not die. It's just the way it is.

Pentax was bought by Ricoh. They no longer even have a booth at SHOT. Their Sports optics customer service dept employs 1 person and they have not released anything new in years. Their PF-80 ED spotting scope is a great scope but has not changed in over a decade, maybe even 2. It exists in their line but Pentax did away with all their riflescopes a few years back and do nothing to promote any sports optics at all anymore. A huge name, pretty much gone.

It is a huge undertaking for a new start up to get established. There are literally hundreds of brands these days and I think it safe to say that of those hundreds of brands there are 20 - 25 which are the standard (if that many) and all the rest are just another blurred Pacific Rim name that nobody cares for or about.

Some of these newer start ups:
Tract, Maven, GPO, Athlon, etc will go the distance as Vortex did 15 or so years ago. Some will not make it due to under funding, lack of quality control, lousy marketing or a combination of reasons. Some will make it and after a while forget what it was that built them in the first place and try to coast on their success, allow quality control to slip and fail for stupid reasons.
As a retailer all I can do is check out the new lines and determine if there's something worthwhile there or it's just another of the hundreds of who cares companies.

Every year at SHOT I spend time looking at companies we do not carry. Companies that have been suggested to us, companies that have approached us, companies we have heard good things about. Ther's many 'me too" companies that have nothing to set them apart from everyone else.
A couple of years ago we took on Konus. I had been suggested to look at them for their decent quality inexpensive spotters. I looked at what they had and for the price was impressed. No they will not compete with any of the top brands, however, there's many folks who need a decent quality affordable optic they can rely on. I had a few friends at SHOT come and meet me that the Konus booth to look at their riflescopes (most with etched reticles), their spooters and their binoculars. These friends are hunting guides, industry forum owners and writters and an NYPD Ballistics Analyst. We all were fairly impressed with what we saw for the prices. We have since taken in their Riflescopes and their Spotters. We decided against their binocular line as they were unimpressive and there's lots of decent binoculars at every price point starting around $100.00, even less when there are deals.

There's an old saying "There's an ass for every chair" some guys are looking for a $69.99 4x32 fixed power scope and some guys wouldn't touch it. As a member of this forum, a lifelong optics retailer and a supporting vendor here and elsewhere it is my job to try and weed out the crap from the worthwhile and to stand behind the brands we opt to carry and represent.

All the more power to these new brands including the direct to consumer start ups. I never wish ill on anyone who tries to make a go of any business as long as their intentions are to produce quality.

Before I went to SHOT there were posts and PM's about Camera Land having some scopes made as "24HourCampfire" scopes. The various suggestions proved to be a near impossible undertaking as this one wants this and that one wants that and the other one wanted the other thing.

The only constant that I found was if we have a great quality, made in Japan 6x42 in Plex and #4 built it would be well received if we could offer it for around $299.99.
We discussed this with a couple of Japan mfg's and will be working on this hopefully for a Fall 2018 release.

Having any scope built has a minimum order quantity of a couple/few hundred scopes and it is quite an undertaking which is why I feel it makes sense to start with 1 model and possibly build from there.
As Camera Land has never done such a project before we will most likely be working with an established brand and running this through them as an exclusive scope for Camera Land distribution as we are not an importer and are just not set up for that type of project nor is that our world. We will work together to build a great optic, however, we want to provide the best we can and we can only doing that doing what we know. Knowing to work with a partner that knows importing and such makes a great deal of sense for us.

A few years ago we offered a Meopta MeoPro 3-10x44 Plex GDLE (Gr8fuldoug Limted Edition) that did not sell as we had thought. Great scope, priced right, however, just not as popular as predicted. After hearing many requests we are confident a straight 6x42 will be the right step in developing a scope line.

Those of you who know us know that customer service is 1st and foremost as that is the way Pop taught us. If these new companies are smart they will offer the greatest customer service possible because it is a very important ingredient to a quality company.

There's lots of options of what brand to buy and who to buy it from. My suggestion is to build a working relationship with whatever company you find to be the right fit for you. Be it Camera Land, which would be my choice , SWFA, Optics Planet, Euro Optics, or whoever and you'll always have someone to work with, rely on, have in your corner and to ask questions. In the grand scheme of things you can shop the internet and always get the last penny of savings, however, in the long run you really will never save enough to make up for the advice, service and knowledge of having a go to company.

As always, please feel free to send a PM, e-mail to [email protected] or give me a call, 516-217-1000 to discuss what optic or camera is right for you because in this internet driven world we will continue to offer personalized service, which in my book is priceless
Thanks for taking the time to read this

Outside of 24 Hour, I don’t see people with fixed power scopes in the field

Thanks Doug. Pop taught you well.

"In the grand scheme of things you can shop the internet and always get the last penny of savings, however, in the long run you really will never save enough to make up for the advice, service and knowledge of having a go to company."

You rock Doug.

What do you attribute the slow sales of the Meopta MeoPro 3-10x44 Plex GDLE to?

That’s a fact. But then again, you can’t even buy the darned things either at a Cabelas or LGS around my parts. Plus, everyone needs a 12X scope to shoot deer at 150 yards these days.

I just think the 3.5-10x44 is not that popular a size.

Maybe a 2-10x40 or a 4-20x50 would have done better.

When we did this we thought:
The Zeiss conquest 3.5-10 sold fairly well at around $550.00. Meopta made this scope for Zeiss and it essentially was a re-wrapped MeoPro. We figured at only $349.99 it was a homerun and we'd blow through them offering a great scope at a great price. We had to commit to a run of 400 scopes. It took 3 years to move through what we had predicted a 6 month supply.
Live and learn

Most hunters now days want a holdover reticle, or the ability to dial range

Doug,
As I recall, there were multiple people in that "24hourcampfire scope" thread who wanted what was essentially an SWFA 3-9 with a covered windage turret and a zero stop elevation, or something along the lines of the Bushnell LRHS put on a diet.

Build a "hunting dialer" scope with specs similar to those, and I suspect people will buy them......seems like about once a week someone on here talks about wanting a scope like that, but nobody makes one.

Yeah, I'd think a 6x with dots would do better than a #4.

Your scope was a home run that didn’t sell, just goes to show how fickle the buying public is.

Great post, just ordered through Doug for the first time, and will continue to do so.
No matter the type of scope comes out for the campfire special I will be behind it,
And will order one.

I'd prefer a 4.5-15x44 or 3-15x44

Doug,

I agree 100% with Prarie Goat. IMHO, and we all know what that is worth, the “Hey Doug” thread morphed significantly from this point. Personally not a fan of a #4, I just think some voices are louder than others. Also, if you’re dialing, holdover dots, hash marks, etc are worthless unless they match the turret. So there is that.

Also, FWIW, great post and thank you again for all the customer service, which is invaluable! I’m a relationship based kinda guy and that means a lot to me.

Lastly, when people look at success, it’s easy to overlook the guy (or gal) who busts their ass 24/7/365. I don’t care who you are or what you do. Initiative and hard work goes further than just about anything.

Thank you,

More people voted for Hillary than Trump.


As stated, I defy you to go into a store and find a fixed power scope, outside a Bushnell Banner 4x. Bells and whistles sell. Appearance over substance it was drives scope purchases and votes.

Thanks, Doug, great post!

Whatever Brands Doug sells, CameraLand gets the call when I want one. Their service is worth it.

Skylar at SWFA is pretty incredible also.

Optics Planet Sux. They are not honest about their stock or delivery times. They don't answer their emails and your looking at a 10 of 15 minute wait to talk to a rep. When you call. I just made this mistake buying a Trijicon from these numb nuts. To add insult to injury, I could have got one from Doug but they are not on the websight.

Doug, I'd be very surprised if 20% of the people who said they'd buy X from you if X could be built will buy one when they become available.

Doug,

From the other side, being in both the pure shooting, and the hunting world- specifically western back pack hunting I get a different take than most.


I vaguely remember the CL Meopta scopes, and just as then, when I read abut it in this thread my first thought was- "won't sell". Here's why-

The first thing to realize is that the greater hunting community does NOT drive the market anymore and is not the ones spending money each year. I know most hunters will be upset about the thought that they aren't "THE"market, but they're not. The shooting community is the market it. It isn't hard to see why. Every pure hunter that I know buys a very limited amount of guns, ammo, optics and accessories. Of what they do buy, it's almost always going to be traditional (or offer something unique). Contrast that with the pure shooters: they are always chasing the next advantage- new rifles, ammo, optics, etc, etc. And they consume it in far larger quantities.

As an example- all of the "pure hunters" where I work even seeing the total failures of those scopes still tend to buy Leupold, Swarovski, etc. for their hunting rifles. Of which they usually have only one or two and outside of work shoot a box or two of ammo a year. They may average a new scope every two-three years and they don't know what a Meopta is, and would never spend $350 on one.
On the other side- the "shooters" take the lessons learned at work and apply it to all of their shooting and put Nightforce, SWFA, Bushnell Elite Tactical, etc. on their hunting rifles that they shoot 5-10k rounds a year out of. The average guy probably buys 4-5 new scopes a year and they want the same things in them that they want from work scopes- reliability, durability, good reticles, good turrets. They don't care about traditional brands and absolutely would try a Meopta if it was bombproof. If the first few worked- they'd buy ten each.


Your "Meopta MeoPro 3-10x44 Plex GDLE" appeals to neither group. The traditional hunters won't actually choose it over a Leupold, and it does absolutely nothing for the dudes that actually shoot. Your 6x special scope is in all likelihood going to be the same. It's not without merit, but the "simple fixed 6x with simple reticle that's truly reliable" is WAAAAY over represented on the campfire. Not only that, but it doesn't take much looking back to see that the vast majority of those clamoring for it don't generally follow through and actually buy that many scopes.
I'm not saying don't build it, as I think there needs to be that scope in the market, but I am saying that shooters buy scopes. SWFA sells every 6x42mm and 3-9x42mm SS MQ scope they can make because they work for shooters who hunt, and for hunters who shoot. Getting a company to make a neat 6x scope that is built the same as all their other scopes is an absolute waste of time. It will be a flop.

The first requirement MUST be absolute durability above all else. Second, MUST be perfect tracking. Even if you do both things, if you make it with 1/4moa adjustments and a duplex you're going to sell all of about 20 of them. Make it with 1/10th mils adjustments, low pro elevation turret, capped windage turret, a well designed mil reticle, and the durability to fall off of a cliff and still be zeroed perfectly.... and it will be the next SWFA SS 6x42mm MQ- you won't be able to keep them in stock.

This. Again.

Formidilosus I appreciate your input and respect you and your suggestion. I follow your posts and value your input.

I shall forward on the:

"The first requirement MUST be absolute durability above all else. Second, MUST be perfect tracking. Even if you do both things, if you make it with 1/4moa adjustments and a duplex you're going to sell all of about 20 of them. Make it with 1/10th mils adjustments, low pro elevation turret, capped windage turret, a well designed mil reticle, and the durability to fall off of a cliff and still be zeroed perfectly.... and it will be the next SWFA SS 6x42mm MQ- you won't be able to keep them in stock."

Constructive advise is always welcome and greatly appreciated. If/when we see this project through I will call upon you to ask for your evaluation of the scope, if that would be alright.

All I want:

Illuminati, nonvariable set somewhere 3-4.5, add parallax adj.

Like the size, weight, turret height, reticle,...

If its light and tracks perfect with dialable turrets it will sell.

Doug
I wish you the best success if you are able to create a Cameraland line of scopes. I have to say though that I don't think a fixed 6X is the best model. Personally,I have no use for a fixed 6X and many hunters must not either since not many companies make one. Personally,I think something more along the line of a SWFA SS 3-9 with a capped windage and lower profile elevation turret with zero stop would be a better sell. Something similar to the Bushnell 3-12 LRHS but in a 2-10 so it could come in about 19 ounces would also be a great seller.

Just as Formidilosus was saying,it needs to be something that can appeal to the shooting world just as much as the hunting world. A scope that can serve both markets has to be a success. To me that's something in FFP with a mill based reticle that is versatile enough to be used on low power in the timber. I think some minor changes to the Bushnell LRHS reticle would get you there.

I was looking for the Meopta exclusive the other day and didn't see it. Got any more?

That's because demand is lower than low for fixed stuff nowadays.

very very well said, I also hate to admit it too that the hunters are not driving the market. It is a tad younger crowd generally. a simple fixed 6x is way way over represented here, could not agree more. the cameraland limited edition meopta didn't sell because pretty much every other optics company sells a similar scope, while for the money they probably have to charge twice as much to equal the quality of that scope. most people don't know about it.

doug, I really appreciate your insights on the optics business. I look forward to hearing your thoughts each year about shot show. Optics are interesting to me. I guess I am something of an optics snob. I am also a business owner, so optics and business is something that is interesting to me.

direct sale model is a definite future over brick and mortar products. What an optics company needs is brand enthusiasm, Vortex somehow pulled this off. Bushnell should mortgage their sole and hire the entire vortex marketing team away from vortex. No optics company that I am aware of that was founded from the get go as having robust internals is out of business. 3 come to mind. nightforce, march, and tanget theta. The last brand being by far the weakest of those 3 brands. Remember that NO COMPANY that I know of that started out offering products with robust internals is out of business. there is a market for this. most nightforce scopes until a few years ago were not sold widely in brick and mortar stores. bushnell's high end line isn't available in the big box stores. and well SWFA unless you go to red oak texas your not going to see one either unless its on your buddies rifle.

bottom line is offer something you can't buy elsewhere. I also feel and formidillo alluded to this already is the hunters aren't so much the drivers of the market. Its like bolt action rifles. yes some are sold but there are already so many out there. Offer a scope with bomb proof internals under 1k and they will sell. the market is lacking there. I also feel you will build brand enthusiasm as well.

Agreed, people aren't overly bright

Must track well.
Must track well
Decent glass for dawn and dusk

Amen.

The 3-9 SS and the 3-12 LRHS keep coming up for a reason.

Neither is perfect, but both are close enough that they sell and are reviewed very, very well.

It’s worth noting that both are known for their ruggedness first and foremost. In fact, it’s WHY they both keep coming up.

Give your proposed 6x an exposed vertical adjustment with a zero stop and a capped windage and you’ll have no problem selling them out...assuming you follow Form’s suggestion of absolute ruggedness, tracking, and RTZ.

If the 3-12 LRHS weighed about a quarter/half pound less, they would sell a million.

If the 3-9 SS had a capped windage and zero-stop of some sort...they’d sell 2 million.

Address either of those scopes shortcomings with your own scope, and you literally won’t be able to keep them in stock.

Plus....I’ll put you at the very top of my Christmas card list.

Personally I prefer 3-15 or 4-16 I do most of my hunting on 8 or 10 power.

I agree with Formidilosus on everything...but...from a hunting standpoint the reticle needs to be bold enough to shoot in low light. Heavy outer bars coming closer to the center. It's a 6x hunting scope, even a 2700fps .5 bc bullet is only going to slide 4MOA at 500 yards with a 10mph wind..... On a hunting scope, don't sacrifice a bold reticle for a thin reticle with more width than is going to be used.

Formi,

Although you're right there is a segment of loonys on the internet today that have a lot of influence on shooters and what they may buy, the number of LR shooters still represents a tiny segment of the market. Yes, that segment often makes multiple purchases of firearms and scopes each year compared to the average hunter but still so small they don't drive the scope market--IMO.

A good example is the Campfire, less than 10% of the members on here have more than 100 posts, and probably less than a few hundred drive the conversation on any given day--and the Campfire is the largest hunting/shooting website anywhere last I knew. The low volume of production of dialing scopes also contribute to their higher cost. There are 15-20 million hunters out there each year, and although there are also a segment of pure shooters, the number of gun owners who can reliably hit the 12" steel at 1000 yds is miniscule. And I speculate it will be that way a long time in the future. Understanding drop, MOA/MilRad, ballistics, etc, takes an effort that only a few want to invest in.

Maybe somebody will come up with a 13 oz scope that meets the requirements, everybody will want one, and prove me wrong.

And as far as a broader market is concerned, there will need to be a rangefinder that can actually reliably range fuzzy brown critters in their habitat more than a few hundred yards distant-I've yet to run across one of those gadgets either.

I'll agree with prairie goat and Form.

The reason Leupold scopes sell is because they are a long standing name and their scopes are lightweight. Unfortunately, they've also gotten a reputation for breaking and/or not tracking well. The reason people have been buying their fixed 6x models is because they've gotten a reputation as the toughest scopes Leupold makes, and they're about the lightest option for a scope that is hopefully not going to break. The Kimber Montana rage has transitioned to the Barrett Fieldcraft rage, and people would prefer not to put a giant 20 oz scope on top of their lightweight rifles if possible.

The reason SWFA scopes sell is because they've proven to be reliable and tough on a level that far exceeds their price. In addition to lighter rifles, people like shooting further these days. That means dialing, and the Super Snipers are easily the most affordable way to reliably dial.

If Leupold is phasing out their fixed scopes, and you can get them to keep making batches for you and offering them at a low price when nobody else has them, you'll sell a million.

If you can get someone to make a dead-nuts reliable and absolutely durable scope like the Super Snipers but make them smaller, lighter, and/or have a capped windage turret, you could take that market and sell a million.

If you could make a scope like my Leupold Mark AR with a zero stop turret on top with 1/10 Mil clicks and a Mil-Dot reticle that actually held zero and tracked well, I'd buy nothing else- especially if it had a capped windage turret. This scope weighs nothing, has a decent reticle and good enough glass, and the 1" tube has more than enough room for erector travel to get to 1000 yards. But mine lost zero from a very negligible drop, the turrets spin a little too easily and the windage turret is useless and I have found it to have moved unintentionally at times, and I don't trust it to accurately track.

Have no idea who buys what, but sales figures are surely available, if only to the folks who market the scopes. Gotta assume they know what their market is.

I can draw a rocket ship on the back of a napkin but that isn't gonna make it fly to the moon
I'd fathom a guess that the scopes that are durable,track and hold zero are heavier for a reason

Yes, you're probably right. And Leupolds being lightweight but also not tracking so well is probably more than coincidence. But if someone could figure out a scope that tracks well and doesn't weigh a ton while also coming in at a good price, it would probably sell well.

I'd happily take a 1" tube version of the Super Sniper with smaller turrets and/or a capped windage turret. I don't need as much erector travel as they have to shoot 1,000 yards.

Id buy a good 6x scope with the #4 Ret. Im not a sniper.Just a hunter!

The only complaint I see about the LRHS 3-12x, is that it’s about 4-5 oz too heavy for some people. If you can make the scope Form described, in FFP and 20 oz, with a hard zero stop, for under $1000, you’ll sell a bunch. I’d probably try to find a way to get a couple of them up here to Canada to replace a couple of SS 3-9x’s...

Yep,like I said,I would love to have a 2-10 LRHS at 19 ounces. I think a lot of other folks would too.

For me, I had A LOT rather pay $349.00 for a 6x42 with illumination than $299.00 for a 6x42 without.

Amen !
I in my OLD age now have Fixed 6x42 Scopes on ALL my Rifles except my Win. 1895 405 WCF
Leupold FX-3 or FX-III 6x42 with Heavy Duplex one with Leupold Custom Shop German#4
one Meopta Meopro 6x42 with their German#4 much closer to center than the Leupold!
I dont need hold over reticle here in L.A. (Lower Alabama) MOST shots I have had at deer here
is under 100 yds.
I need a reticle these OLD EYES can see at DARK THIRTY when
Our Bucks finally start moving
AMRA

My big complaint other than not being able to find a fixed 2 1/2 or 3 to put on my lever guns is that scope tube mounting length seems to be getting smaller and smaller. I don't like having to use offset rings to put a scope on a sav 110.

Doug,
Nicely written post. And an honest one. Thank you. I hope whatever scope Cameraland decides on, is a success.
When you mentioned Pentax optics, their disappearance surprised me. Not sure of the year, but, in the late 90's[?], I bought a Pentax 8x42 DCF HR II binocular. One of the brightest, clearest I've looked thru, especially in that price range. Still have and use them now. Sad to see companies like Pentax go by the way side. Good luck in your endeavor's Doug.

Not in the Northeast they don't and I never see anybody with a fixed power scope here either.

Same here.

That's because there's two of you that want one.

I was mainly talking about all these short tube scopes that don't fit hardly anything without putting on one of those damned ugly picatinny rails or goofy azz offset rings.

Thank you. I had a bunch of friends at Pentax and was shocked when they got "el shafto grande"

Just joking my friend. I've complained about the newer scopes having such short tubes too. Like the new VX5 has an objective bell that tapers nearly all the way to the turret. it leaves about an inch of ring space in front of the turret. Becides that all the scope companies are coming out with the super shorties. Just another verification as to who is driving the market.

I remember when the pentex DCF water proof came out. it was such a great binocular for the money. the first nice binoculars I ever bought were the DCF SP's of course from camerland. They really had a decent optics business going then. The rifle scopes I hated personally. The gameseeker I took off and gave to my kids to pay with as a toy. All that was probably a dozen years or more ago. Pentax was a very good optics company back then. no one has really take their place since, and those that have don't make as good of stuff and its all lip stick on a pig chinese stuff.

New invention you could list for sale:

That's an excellent post & I completely agree with your analysis..............& yes, mechanical reliability is THE primary requirement.






As for all those manufacturers making it, I don't think so.......................5 years form now, the only one with a chance to survive will be Athlon as they seem pretty well financed, & that's only if the product lives up to it's hype & claims. Time will tell.

MM

I got one of them and love it. It is a great hunting scope. I hunt a fair amount in the woods, on the north side of a mountain in Arkansas. It gets pretty gray in their an hour or so before last shooting light in the evenings. The additional objective diameter, compared to the more typical 40, is very useful.

Just wish swfa would make a hunting version of the 3-9x42 like others have mentioned
Capped windage
Reduced profile elevation with zero stop
3- 4 extra ounces is a tiny price to pay for reliability and excellent tracking.
$500ish
They would sell for sure.

What everybody really wants is a $300 Leupold that moves when you spin the little thingys and stays where you put it for 50 years. But it has to be a Leupold.

Way I see it scope manufacturers are victims of their own policies.

Think of the typical old curmudgeon. Shoots three rounds two days before deer season to check zero.
Requirement #1- Scope needs to stay zeroed. What a concept.

These guys don't spend $1200 on a scope.
Requirement #2- Scope must be affordable (as cheap as possible and still work. If they could get that for 80 bucks, they'd do it.)

If Old Curmudgeon hooked his bootlaces on the vent knob in the 73 Blazer on the way out the door and fell on his head, he may have to sight the gun in. When he turns the little thingys, the bullets need to go someplace other than where they were going before he turned the little thingys. How is the box of ammo going to last 100 years if he burns it all up trying to chase the little thingys with the bullets?
Requirement #3- Track. The scope must track.

Old Curmudgeon doesn't dial. Old Curmudgeon doesn't use hashmarks to estimate holdover. Old Curmudgeon shoots the first spike he sees at 42 yards and goes home till next year. He and Martha can the venison and he puts his pre-64 Model 70 in 270 away until next year, when he will repeat all of the above. Old Curmudgeon likes Leupolds because they're made in America, always have been.

This is where scope manufacturers have lost Old Curmudgeon. He doesn't do acronyms. He doesn't buy a Crythlon 2.349 x17.64 x43 7/8's BFDHSTRD or care what LRHS stands for. Old Curmudgeon just wants his gun to shoot where it did last year so he can shoot another spike and go home to Martha. Old Curmudgeon doesn't want to know how many lines a manufacturer builds or imports, he just wants a 3-9 Leupold, because he knows what he's getting and it works.

If you want to sell an acronym scope, Old Curmudgeon is not your guy. He wants a Leupold, that works. Good American company that Leupold. Yessir.

I just think the 3.5-10x44 is not that popular a size.

I dunno. That's pretty close to the 3.5-10x40 Leupold that's a huge seller.

Maybe it was just that not enough people were familiar with the brand then.

If you are catering to the 24hourcampfire crowd, I don't think you are going to sell many. Matter of fact you probably will get 20 pages of flack when they are announced. One would think that a line of scopes in the 1x4, 2x7, and 3x9 range that that:

Are reliable
Don't weight 2 pounds
Aren't 20 inches long
Don't have busy reticles
Made for both spinners and non-spinners
1 inch tube
Good eye relief
Easy mounting on most firearms
Can be upgraded??
Are affordable to most

Would sell well..

Personally, I like fixed 4x and most likely would try one of your 6x if it were a 1 inch tube without turrents and a hunting reticle. That is 1.

I still have and use my Pentax SP WP 10x42's and love them. Bought them from Cameraland I think. I remember getting a rebate on them too. I ended up finding a like new used pair of 8x42's for my son. Those were his first binoculars and he has been using them for years. I remember Mule Deer always speaking highly of those binoculars. A couple of years ago I thought I lost my pair. I PM'd Mule Deer and he suggested I would have to pay north of 1K to get comparable glass. I thankfully found the binoculars a few days later. I misplaced them after a Bear hunt.

Yep, it's hard to believe Pentax lost that market.

I'm still using my Pentax SP WPs as well and got them on the recommendation of Mule Deer. Probably the best $300 I've ever spent on hunting gear.

And I still use my Pentax ED 8x32's I purchased from Doug

I bought a pair on Pentax bino's based on the info from here. Only pair of decent bino's I've owned. Lost them in the flood two years ago and am still pissed about it.

No better company to do business with. You have my business and have more than once in the past. I appreciate what you bring to the table Doug and the "cust first attitude" you preach. Means alot!

Doug,

I hope it works out, an I am more than happy to help if you need it

Thank you very much. Gotta love the 24hour family of folks

Call me a Curmudgeon - The bit about snagging my laces on the heater knobs was just too close to home

I've been using the same B&L 2.5-10x40 for over 25 Years - No real complaints

Do I expect the same level of performance & reliability from the newer generation Bushnell 4500 Elite, I hope so !
I see they are improving their warranty to match Leupold I suppose. Be interesting to know how much it is actually used.

Am I a Turret Twirler ? Not yet, but I'd like to, With the appropriate LRF it might be a lot of fun,
FFP reticles are certainly interesting. I don't see the point of SFP BDC reticles unless you are also packing a bipod to steady the beast at the highest power setting.

For a deer hunting rifle, I really don't see the joy in spending 3 times as much on a scope that reliably tracks, but is much heavier and requires 30mm mounts; and only has comparable optical clarity. Custom Medium - Heavy Barrel, LR rig, Sure , go all out. Fill Your Boots. More weight isn't going to hurt that rig.

If sightron would come out with a better reticle and zero stop, it would be all I buy. Only scope I've owned other than Nightforce that tracks etc. The s-tac 3-16x42 would be a great hunting scope...

Doug-congratulations to you and family business. I"m hoping in the future, more Grad schools will focus on American businesses like yours that have stood the test of time, and are relentlessly exploring ways to lead in the future. Your family business is what helped make America great.

If a $299 6x42 riflescope is what the people want and you can make money, then take the hill. But for me, which is probably an N of 1, I'd like to propose for your consideration to explore options with Schmidt and Bender. A collaboration with CL and S&B, whether it be a fixed 6 and/or 10 has a nice ring to it. Here are few proposed specs: make it an aluminum 30mm tube and make sure the turrets and reticles match-Mil/Mil and/or MOA/MOA. It's highly likely this idea could be cost prohibitive for many. If this is the case, remember this idea comes from a guy that doesn't have a clue on how to run an optics retail business.

Again, congrats and best wishes,

Scott

Scott, I thank you for the kind words and the suggestion. I am waffling back and forth as to whether it makes sense for me to step out of my area of expertise of evaluating existing products, company quality, and customer service and entering the world of product production. I have been discussing new scope ideas with a couple of the companies we work with now and perhaps we can work together with one or more of them to design and release some of my ideas without me having to take on such a huge project all alone.
We shall see

That would be the way to go, IMHO. If it were as easy as many here make it out to be, they'd have already done it themselves, as anyone can go to an OEM in Japan, come up with a product, and sell it.

Oh, and congrats on your family business....it IS one thing that makes America great.

Get it with the duplex reticle and add a zero stop from Zer-OStop.com. like mine mucho.

I love the S-tac 3-16....but it needs a illuminated reticle. I despise a Duplex for most uses, and I love the MOA reticle.....its just too damn thin.

Lots of compromises to be made and decisions to make. The order of priority has been established quite well in this thread.

My thoughts:

One reason for Leupold popularity, IMO, is aesthetics. Europeans go to great lengths to ensure their scopes look like dog puke. I do grant that aesthetics are secondary to performance, but not at the expense of eye relief, mounting flexibility, and minimalist profile. Don't substitute a giant clunky parallax adjustment ring for a giant clunky magnification adjustment ring . In general, the duration of opportunity for field adjustment of elevation and parallax in a hunting situation is such that the adjustment itself need not be big and clunky for the sake of ergos and speed. At such low magnification, the scope maker should consider eliminating parallax adjustment altogether...and instead, testing parallax and publishing typical values in their specs. Adjustment positivity and reliability are required, along with resistance to inadvertent movement that bulk and "good" ergos would bring. If you are shooting for a fixed 4x or 6x, I don't see a need for objective lens sizing greater than 28mm and 36mm respectively. Keep ocular size down as well to allow low mounting.

FOV relative to other scopes in this size range is of minimal importance compared to eye relief and ability to mount the scope low. I'm trying to put this on light rifles for hunting in high-up far-off places using common UL sporter stocks without excessively raised combs. I want to be able to get reliable bone-supported cheek weld, like I can with a leupold in low mounts.

Reticle must be simple, period. Any sort of windage and upward vertical markings besides known milliradian based subtension to the thick part of the reticle is useless to me. Hashes below center, if used, must be fine hashes of modest size on a fine hair, with even milliradian-based spacing. Forget dots or hashes with arbitrary uneven spacing. Anyone interested in ranging with this scope will be doing so from a dope chart.

You win bigly if you can cram all of this into a unit with:
1. Ocular OD same as common Leupold
2. Objective < 36mm
3. Mounting flexibility equal to or greater than 4x33 or 6x42 leupold
4. Weight less than a pound.
5. Minimal marking and logos.

Major bonus points if you get it with a 1" tube and/or sub-12oz weight.

Major points removed for dog puke aesthetics when minimalist would work same and weigh less.

You're looking to replace my fleet of 4x33, 6x36 and 6x42 leupolds, and you will if you do it right.

Hey Doug, have you ever though of doing a KickStarter for this to get the ball rolling? Instead of trying to just make money on the scopes it could expose people to what CameraLand is and try to leverage your scope venture into other sales outside of the scopes.

Whole lot of "hunting scope" common sense in that post. There is a disconnect between hunting scopes and "tactical" scopes. The desires of both groups overlap in the most important areas of reliability of adjustments and return to zero, but they differ on several other areas like reticles, windage adjustments, parrallax, etc. One of the things I'm looking for in Doug's (plug for http://cameralandny.com/ ) possible venture into the realm of made to order scopes is a "hunting" reticle rather than a kill the steel at 1000 yard reticle.

I have thought of a few ways to raise the funds, however, I am leaning towards working with an established brand as a co-branded project

How well that brand is established and how much people trust it will play a huge role if you go that route. No matter how good the scope is,if it is just seen as a rebranded second or third tier scope,or even an unestablished brand it won't sell well. For example a Cameraland Nightforce would sell much better than a Cameraland Barska,even if they were the exact same product.

I think that the reputation for reliability that the SWFA scopes have now took a while to establish.Maybe I'm not a good example and may not be as much in the know,but several years ago when I first started seeing them recommended, I just blew them off as a cheap no name store brand like I've seen before. It took some recommendations from people I actually knew before I was willing to give one a try.

"One reason for Leupold popularity, IMO, is aesthetics".

I agree with Vek. To my eye the Leupold 6x36 or 4x33 is the best looking scope out there. I detest huge eyepieces. Some are so large that it becomes the determining factor in how low the scope can be mounted and still clear the bolt.

Like a lot of people, I have had tracking issues with some of my Leupolds. I expect bullet impact to move when I make an adjustment, not one or two shots later if ever. I had this happen a few days ago again even though I thumped the scope after the adjustment.

I recently bought a SWFA 6x42MQ and sighted it in with TWO shots! It moved exactly as it was told. It is not my idea of a hunting scope but the reliability is appreciated.

I would buy a dependable, good looking 6x. I prefer 6x36 but would probably go for 6x42. Prefer standard duplex but LR duplex would do also.

My Leupolds are on thin ice now and I'm waiting for an excuse to make a change.

Like you I love my MOA reticle and it is to thin. Thats why I recommended the Duplex since so many others seem like it. I have a SIII 3.5-10x44 LRIRMOA that I'm liking very much .. Zero stop from Jason also. Do wish Sightron engineered their own in the product. Oh well.

Well said about the customer service and advice ,that is hard to truly put a price on .