I am aware that they make different models with different quality features at different prices. What I want to know is which is the bottom dollar model that you trust as far as tracking and durability goes????? Like a super sniper from SWFA as an example

Thanks

I've had 3 of the Vipers and 2 Razors, a gen I 5-20 and a gen II 4.5-27. My Gen 2 Razor has been great so far but all others, including the Gen I Razor, have been returned for service and/or sold for issues of some sort. Not a good track record in my book.

I think the Gen 2 Razors are a decent scope if you can get them under $2K but I won't be buying any Vipers in the future unless Vortex does something with their QC and testing.

None of them are trustworthy sans the Razor line.

That's been my experience

I can’t speak as an owner, only a perspective buyer. I am in the market for a high end scope. I have ruled out Vortex. My concerns are growing quality issues and direction of the company into a big corporate model; that they are moving away from the small business model that keeps them close to their customers.

Here is a letter from Vortex---- taken from another web site about complaints etc.. "A no risk experience"






Hi everyone, this is Dave and Vortex and I’d like to weigh in here.
First, I’d like to say that the people at Vortex are absolutely committed to giving the best product and the best service in the world to our customers. Many of our employees, including myself, have been in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq and know firsthand the importance of equipment that has the best reliability as humanly possible. With that said there never has been a perfect product ever made, and there never will be. We could literally fail every product ever made by any brand, if we looked hard enough. Every single product ever made, previous, now, and in the future, will fail under the right conditions or given enough use. I learned that first hand in critical combat situations. I had to adapt to the situation and make the mission happen.
So, what we do for you is strive to make our products the best they possibly can be and we give the best customer service, not because we put junk in a box, but because it’s the right thing to do. This is not a movie, it’s real life, and if we had the warranty we did with junk in a box we literally would not be able to stay in business (in real life). In addition, there are more examples than I can count where the customer damaged the scope and we will literally replace it with no questions asked (and without making you feel stupid...I've broken things due to my own fault too). Some examples:
Dropping product off a huge cliff – replaced no questions asked
Leaving a brand new purchased PST in the box on tailgate as customer drives away and it falls off in an intersection and is run over for about an hour. Scope crushed. – replaced no questions asked.
Customer torqued rings using FOOT pounds torque wrench, crushing scope tube. Scope replaced no questions asked.
Basically, if you buy a Vortex product you will have a product to use for the rest of your life no matter what.
We do this because we genuinely care about our customers and want them to have the absolute best experience possible in an imperfect world. Looking at how many scopes we have sold (and we sell as many or more than any other brand) our failure rate is far below 1%. Are some of the scopes never sent back? Sure! Are some scopes sitting in safes most of their existence? Sure! However, we still see very little failures and have other evidence that our failure rate is way below 1%. We have a huge amount of people that use our products, regularly, and successfully with no problems. When you have a ton of scopes out there the percentage can still be small but the number can be relatively high. In the day-in-age of the internet everything gets reported and can seem like a big number. People tend to report the negative and never the positive.

We do occasionally have customers with repeat problems. So, what’s that all about? On the clear majority of occasions such as these (which are actually quite small) we have found there is something very unique going on with the customer’s situation. This is not to bash the customer or say it’s their fault, at all. Scopes, rifles, other shooting equipment, and shooting in general are quite complicated and there are countless variables that can contribute to a problem (more variables than any brand or engineering group can account for if they are being honest). Most of the time in these situations we find something like one of the following:
Customer lapped their quality rings
Customer used vertically split rings
Customer over-torqued rings (yes, sometimes they use a FOOT pounds torque wrench or no torque wrench at all). I’ve been that guy that doesn’t have a wrench and I think my Mark 1 torque fingers are highly calibrated to make it happen….and then I screw it up (covered by our warranty! And we won’t make you feel stupid for doing it because we have been that guy too)
It could even be a very unique rifle, caliber, mount, scope combo that is causing a very unique and specific resonance frequency causing a problem with the scope. Again, there are countess variables and there are bound to be strange situations that will pop up.
So, what can we do for you in these situations? First, we never give the customer a hard time. If this is you in this thread, call us up! Put us to the challenge to help you out! We have actual human beings, in a menu tree 1 button deep (most of which are huge shooting enthusiasts themselves) to answer the phone and help you out by walking you through your situation. Our people will not belittle you or your situation. I’ve probably done more dumb things than you, anyway. Like I said, shooting can be complicated and we know that, so we will graciously do whatever we can to help you.
We have a FFL. We often have a customer send us their rifle and we mount their scope (a new one if needed). Then we will go out and shoot that setup for you and send you the target. After this we will send the rifle and scope back (all mounted up) and walk you through anything we learned along the way to get you up and shooting. We do this quite often actually and this is a great way we can often find the issue with the setup that is causing the problem.
If this doesn’t solve the problem, we have upgraded customers to a different product for no additional cost.
If this doesn’t work (which rarely happens) we will refund your money.
We literally offer a no risk experience.
We aren’t magicians so we can’t give you your time back, but we will do everything we can, short of sorcery, to make you happy. I have even bought ammo for a customer before to replace what they used up.
The bottom line here is that we will go out of our way to make sure you are happy with your product and are able to operate the way you need to. This is not a warranty on a box. Again, this is not a movie, it’s real life and bad things can and do happen. We do everything we can to make the experience better.
I’ll also point out that what we learn over time we constantly apply to make products better. I believe the product that started this thread was a Viper HS and the OP also referred to the Gen 1 PST. Our current Gen II PST is a big leap in performance and quality over the Gen 1 PST (which is an almost 10-year-old product).
Lastly, to the OP, give us a call and let us help you out. We live in an imperfect world and no product will ever be perfect. Eventually, with enough use, every product can and will fail (any brand, and type of product…not just shooting products). However, we will do everything we can to get you where you want to be. If there is something unique with your situation we will see if we can walk you through it and get your product working for you. Thank you

Dave

The Vortex scopes that I owned and used are mediocre at best. Also their scopes seem big and heavy and expensive, which is fine if the glass is good. Because the glass is not good to my eyes, I don't even look at Vortex scopes anymore.

That letter from Dave at Vortex is interesting. Two things caught my eye.
#1. Lapping quality rings?
#2 Vertically split rings?

I did not realize these two things are a problem? and cant wrap my mind around how they could cause issue's?

Vertically split rings do not provide consistent pressure around the tube- they “pinch” it.

Yeah, I use a lot of Warne rings, which are vertically split, and they haven’t yet caused any issues with my scopes, which are mostly Leupold. Should I be concerned? Or is it only a problem if you use vertically split rings with Vortex scopes?

But the name sounds cool to the younger crowd- they can spit out fancy sentences like "I'm running a Vortex Razor Generation 14 on my 338 Edge with 210 TTSX's"

I've always preferred quiet competence, aka Leupold.

Quality rings are already "lapped", and there are a lot of high quality stuff not mentioned in this forum, seen on high dollar long range precision which is where Vortex "started" Spuhr, Adamount, American Rifle Company.

Vertical Split rings are usually not a problem in set ups that are zeroed and left, but a lot of problems are being reported in tracking errors and non-zero returns in long range precision shooting.
some explanations are directed towards the scopes being designed to take stress at the sides, other explanations with the location of the springs. others with tops being tightened before bottoms.
this problem is recorded pretty well on other web sights.

Vortex initially got started by marketing to a specialized group in the high dollar group at the same time Premier and USO were really getting going. Most scopes in this group have glass for resolution rather than color spectrum balance. and they are/were built like truck, NF, etc. and heavy to take the abuse of long range precision type shooting. In this respect they are no different than Leopold, whose top of the line scopes are really good, and then not so much.

When Nikon set up shop in the Philllipines ,and others went to China, I suppose Vortex had to also be price competitive with the new stuff, Althon Primary.

You pay for what you get, and personally I think the Optics industry has improved light years from 10-15 years ago.

Got a lot of old scopes I kept just for fun
original 4x weaver
Burris - put the animal between the lines with mag. ring and it moves the horizontal to the holdover (like some of the new Redfields)
Burris varmint with adjustable Iris
weaver 8x56 German cross hair
couple of

What ever "names" they choose is fine with me as long as they carry on the spirit of the shooting sports.

Frankly, glad to see that much excitement,

Not singular to Vortex.

I think it will mostly depend on how thick the scope tube is, how well the rings and receiver holes are aligned,and if they are properly torqued,as to if you will have a problem or not. They do however pinch more than other designs and I've seen some high dollar scopes with creased and crinkled tubes from using them.

Even if they don't damage the tube they can be putting stress on the erector system and cause inconsistent adjustment. Though you can do that with any rings that are out of alignment or improperly torqued.



To the original question,I've not yet decided to trust any Vortex. Even though the Razor may be solid.I would still buy a Nightforce or possibly a couple others as a first choice.

I did try their Razor in their HD LH 1.5-8X32,which is a light weight hunter scope. Glass is excellent but even though it seems to work adjustments are so mushy it's difficult to even discern a click,and that's on a $700 scope.

to answer your question none of them. They are marketing company. most of their stuff is chinese or Philippine manufacture. I bought a brand new PST 2 and it showed 3/4 MOA of reticle shift at 20 MOA of up elevation. I returned the scope and got another brand new one and the second scope did the same thing, EXACTLY. why wasn't this caught at the factory? the truth is they aren't being checked. If you want it checked I supposed it will cost you double the money with a nightforce. which I did end up buying another of and ran the same test and it tracked 100%

the reason some have great luck with vortex is frankly most people don't shoot all that much, this is in despite of what they may claim. It also depends on what you do with the scope. if you set it and forget it, there are plenty of optics that can handle that. crank knobs better spend the big bucks.

the other issue I have with vortex is brand management. you go spend $100's on their optics then they change the model 2 years later and your resale is horrible. I guess who wants to spend money on chinese made junk? if you want decent scopes they need to be europe or japan manufacture.

The Razor G1 (made in JAPAN) I had was used for thousands of rounds fired, most of them dialed. Worked flawlessly. But it was an MOA scope, and my last one at that, so it was traded and replaced with a DMRII. Frankly, I miss the Razor.

I think that is the only scope they had made in japan. even those some guys claimed had issues over on snipershide, that was way too much scope for me. nearly 3 pounds is one truck axle of a scope. surprised you don't like the DMR better. vortex though you got to hand it to them they had good timing and one hell of a business plan. bushnell was being horse traded and run into the ground by private equity buyouts. they pretty much replaced all the space bushnell had in retail stores. They have also managed to take customer service and turn problems into fans of the brand. They got people wearing vortex hats in stores and convinced the guys behind the counter to pimp their products.

I don't have an opinion either way, but I thought this was interesting. Vortex has the highest usage among the pro shooters in Precision Rifle Series.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/03/03/long-range-scopes-pros-use/

Main reason why "old" scopes have such a good reputation is, there was no internet back then

lots of Vortexs been put out there in the last 10 years,

Is that because Vortex is the best though,or because Vortex sponsors the most shooters?

Its the best for the price, that allows those shooters to get into the sport.

Decreasing marginal utility, and decreased demand elasticity.

a word about vortex warranties.I used to have 3 vortex vipers,i sold them all. I had a 4x16x44 that midway sold. the power ring got so tight I couldn't turn it with tearing skin of my fingers. I called and talked to a tech at vortex. the guy said they would not take it back for repair and gave me the name of 2 companies that sell power ring levers. I told him I wanted it fixed and he would not do it. well ,I hug up before I went totally off on him ,waited a day and called back. the second tech told me the exact same thing . I bought a power lever online then sold the scope. my other 2 vipers were hst 6x24x50 models. I was never really happy with clarity above 20x on either scope so I sold them to. NO MORE VORTEX FOR ME.

That's sort of what's always concerned me about the brand. They might have a great exchange warranty but what good is it to exchange one POS for another POS?

from the link:
Vortex was the most popular brand for the 2nd year in a row, representing over 1/3 of the top shooters.

If true, they must be doing something right. Marketing only goes so far.

Have any of you looked at the Athlon scopes?

I don't know if that's the reason or not. I just think it's something that needs to be considered when evaluating based on what top competitors use. I know in other areas top competitors often change equipment as their sponsors change.

Lots of advertising just like tc did the encore

Any competitors want to chime in? Would you use inferior equipment to receive sponsorship?

I don't think it's that black and white. It's not like a top competitor would use a $100 BSA because it's free but they might use their second or even 4th choice when they really couldn't afford their first choice anyway without the sponsor.

A top shooter told me this is a very competitive shooting sport. Many shooters have a huge investment and want to win. He said most choose equipment based on results. Sponsorship is something they enjoy, but they will trade sponsorship to win.

I had a diamondback, if I wanted an objective bell that big in diameter I could have got it with a 50mm leupold. No thanks, I sold it.

Two of the top PRS/sniper match competitors chose to use Leupold Mark 6’s in a team match a couple of years ago even though they knew that both had tracking errors and both had a .2-.4 Mil zero shift in elevetaion regularly. LOTS of competitors use stuff for reasons other than because it works the best. Again the Kahles and Steiner scope issues that were well known and reported still had people competing with them even after they had to send one, and in some cases, multiple scopes back for failures.

It sounds good to say that competitors only use “the best” but in USPSA, 3-Gun, precision matches, and service rifle- especially with scopes, that’s not the case a lot of times.

Cognitive dissonance is real.

kahles and steiner aint exactly inexpensive stuff either. in fact its mega over priced if you ask me. I too saw the tracking error problems with those scope on youtube where they tall target tested them. vortex is probably paying enough to get them to use them still. competing with a crap scope I suppose is better than not competing at all because you don't have money to get there.

I read stuff like this on the campfire constantly....

I've come to the conclusion, after reading ALL of these threads,

I must be the luckiest scope owner on the campfire, as I don't seem to experience
all of these disastrous issues that others seem to experience...

I buy scopes and they just seem to work...

yet I'll admit, I don't buy Barska, and some of these other goofy made in Buttfudkistan....
or low buck Simmons etc...

Tascos I never seem to have problems with...some of them I do avoid.. almost like its common sense...

The Vortexs I have are working fine....they must be defective in some way... according to campfire standards...

reading the campfire, I wonder if a quality & durable scope is actually made at all.. from anywhere in the world
at ANY price....

Only scope I ever had to take a dump on me. You could shake it and it sounded like a baby's rattle.

+1

Well said!

Any top competitor can pick his sponsors...

Using big words you do not understand is usually a bad move...

They may have been true some time ago, but times have changed in the optics world...

I once bought a scope at a garage sale just around the corner from home. Guy had run over it with a truck.

Leupold replaced it... I sorta knew the former owner so I brought it back after it was replaced and asked if he wanted to buy it back.

He did.

Seems easy to figure any number of angles to the same goal.

I am a "set and forget" scope user. I was a fanatical shooter for 35 years and now just a hunter. I am an old guy and like my rifles to weigh about 7 to 7.5 lbs. with scope. I've had to use McEdge stocks to get some of them there. I'll be damned if I am going to put 2 lbs. plus of scope on top of them just to get "more" reliable tracking. To me it really unbalances a rifle to put that much weight on TOP of it. There is also another disadvantage to a heavy scope. The weight is hard on the mounts, rings and scope internals during recoil. So that heavy scope BETTER be shock proof. I refuse to mount a scope that weighs much more than 16 ounces on one of my rifles. And price, I just can't afford to spend more than 5 to 6 hundred dollars on a scope. They don't last forever and probably won't last longer doing what it did out of the box than a $500 scope did when it came out of the box. And resale value. I doubt any scope can fetch much more than 50 percent of it's retail value (considering inflation) after 5 years. I don't doubt all of the stories of tracking issues with Leupolds that I've read on these forums. I hope Leupold takes notice and improves in this area. But, Leupold is the undisputed king in the lightweight scope with good glass, at an affordable price field. Any of my variable scopes that I replace will be replaced by fixed power glass, whether it is Leupold, Meopta or whoever is making good fixed power scopes. And, I'll just keep tapping the side of the turrets when I sight in a rifle. RJ

Don't know what you mean by bad move. Dumb statement.

Simple demand and supply. demand elasticity based on increasing numbers entering the market . scopes are just like any other commodity.

Shot in competitive world for 20 years, you don't know schit about it.

I have vortex PsT gen -2. So far it is a bad ass scope. Love the view, the reticle and the control. Hopefully the internals hold up, but so far so good. Actually like it better than my NXS, but the Nightforce is proven.

I have zero interest in disabusing you of your fantasies...

Disabusing whoa and you had trouble with demand and supply

Come on tell me what you know about competition shooting

Lots of comments on this forum about wanting a scope that will just hold zero.

IIRC Burris, made one in the 80,90s after sighting it in, it had a small cap that was removed and a "locking screw" was tightened to lock the zero.

Not sure why it didn't dominate the market. Maybe there is one in a garage somewhere.

we shoot yardages from 100yards to 500 yards in the winter sometimes below zero too usally 20-25 shooters off cement bench`s ,we all are moving are knobs up and down so we are on target at all yardages I use a niteforce my scope works just fine ,most shooters I know use niteforce ,some use leupold another fine scope and those are the two scopes that always win. as a gun dealer some asked me about Vortex and just tell them about these rifle shoots we have in the winter. if Vortex wants to give me a Vortex scope to try in these shoots I would but I won`t buy one yet nor do I believe a Vortex is worth it,too take a chance in Vortex scope hunting or in a rifle shoot on my coin

Me too Pete, Ill take anything thats new and paid for.

Amen!

Niteforce?

The company I work for has done all concrete work for Vortex's new digs here in Wisconsin. Quite a few of the guys I know are running Vortex optics on their rifles. Haven't heard of any of them having any problems with them, of course not many are doing any twisting. Personally, I don't care for the ocular on the Vortex scopes I have looked at, so I'll just stick with Leupold/Redfield, Weaver(Classic fixed), and Burris(FFII).

Guess I'm not trendy.

I've never been interested in Vortex anything, as there is always something that is equal to, or performs better for less money. Since they're all Chinese stuff now, I'm even less impressed if that's possible.

JG, honestly...there is nothing in the PST-2 price range with its features. (Assuming it performs). To get high speed dials, zero stop, and illumination for $1000 is about half the competition.

The Athlon Ares is a similar scope and the Ares ETR coming this Summer will be a great scope

Are they both Chinese made?

yes, they are both made in China. The only Athlon scope from Japan is the Cronus

I will absolutely take your word for it dog.

34mm tube.....no bueno.

JG, haven't put enough rounds through it yet, but so far so good. Believe me, I'm not drinking to vortex koolaid, but if this scope holds I'm really impressed.

When Formy says they are GTG, I'll buy one; ditto for Athlon, who has virtually no history here at all yet.

Nightforce has a track record..................pun intended. 'nuff said.

MM

I've owned three Vortex scopes. None of them tracked worth a [bleep]. IME junk.