Serious Hypothetical Question

Home

I have a serious hypothetical question to pose. Let�s say that our worst nightmare (as gun owners) is made a reality and a governmental law is passed banning the possession of any type of firearm. Let�s say that to enforce this law UN troops are brought in along with our current military and police to enforce the law. I say the UN because I believe that in this serious of an event, forces would be needed that do not have a personal tie to the citizens of the United States or have an American belief system. My question is this. Would you be willing to take up arms and oppose the government, military, police and the UN? I especially want to hear from current and ex military folks. Myself being a combat veteran would feel very weird about taking up arms against fellow soldiers. However, in the defense of the constitution I believe that I would if push came to shove because it ranks (in my mind) far above the brothership that I feel toward our servicemen. Another portion of this question would be for the active duty military folks, reserves, National Guard and police officers. If congress passed a law banning firearms and directed you to enforce the law using any means necessary, would you do it or would you resign and fight to preserve the constitution, as we know it? I�m not trying to be a doomsday advocate or an anti-government zealot. When I first thought about this possibility it scared me that our country seems to be moving in this direction and that one day I may have to make this decision. Especially with the UN meeting in June where total world disarmament will be discussed and all of the anti-gun groups like HCI, Million Mom folks and even the AMA are going to be on hand to testify and encourage total arms confiscation of civilians world wide and especially in the US were private firearms ownership is the highest in the world. I would like to state that I am not trying to stir up a conflict against gun owners and the police or military. I would just like to see and open and honest discussion of what I feel is a very real possibility sometime within the next 20 years. Thanks for your replies and participation. HOSS

IN A HEARTBEAT! Your Question was posed to marines and special forces a few years ago. 75% said they would not fire on American civilians who refused to surrender their weapons. Of course, I'd say once some hothead civilian fired first, that number would go down very quickly. This stat came from a book I just read about Mike New, who was courtmartialed for his refusal to wear the U.N. uniform in Macedonia. I served in the U.S. Army for 4 years. I have great respect for our soldiers, but I too rank our constitution above all but God and my family. I may sound a bit like some doomsday cult, but I think the U.N. is bad news, and intends to disarm the whole world. These are indeed, scary times we live in. 7mmbuster Trust in God and Fear Nothing

I am afraid I would have to stand up and fight. I fervently pray it never comes to that, but to paraphrase somthing I once heard. I would rather die standing up fighting for freedom than live on my knees as a slave. And I believe it was Ben Franklin that said: " Any person willing to give up a little freedom for a little safety deserves neither". Scary times these do be, we just have to keep pluggin' and teachin' and hope some common sense can still be resurected out of the current climate in this country as well as the rest of the world. If only the anti's would take an open minded look at places like Great Briton and Austrailia or even closer like Washingto,DC, Chicago, New York Etc. to see that it is not guns. IT IS PEOPLE AND PEOPLE ALONE that cause crime and violence. ------------------ T LEE Remember: There is no such thing as OVERKILL. Just a generous margin of SAFETY! APATHY!.........Freedoms greatest enemy!

While many of the anti agencies (at least wiht civilians) don't know that, the whole reason that our government and the UN are pushing for disarmament is because an armed man is a citizen, and an unarmed man is a servant. I forget exactly how it goes and who said, but it still gets the point across. The UN wants to be our mighty and holy God. As for the would I fight question, I dunno. In all seriousness, I don't know how I would be able to with dying as an option. It would be scary. But when it comes down to it, I would either fight or be a slave. And if I thought long enough, I would rather fight.

I served in the Marine Corps for eight years. I can honestly say that if it came down to it, I would fight. The oath I took in the corps was to "defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic". It would definitely be one of the hardest decisions of my life, but that is the price I feel you need to pay in order to live in a free society. I really hope it doesn't ever come down to it, but the way things are going in DC you cant help but wonder sometimes. Keeb

I would be afraid to start shooting in the streets because I am afraid I would bring a firefight on my wife and children.I think I would send them to a safe area first.I would not try to take on a tank or platoon with my S.K.S. but I would snipe then split.Shoot a couple U.N. soldiers then try to vanish.This would be the best technique.Kind of like "Red Dawn".That would tie them up awhile.I think alot of soldiers would switch sides and we would be able to get our hands on more powerful weapons.

Friends here is a crazy idea that would stop any aggression from our own military forces directed at us a American citizens. Re instate the military draft. An Army composed of conscripts would be hard to get to attack their own mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers... the government would have to answer to the people of this nation not the UN. The governments capability to wage war on it's own people would be severally limited. Just a crazy idea.Bullwnkl.Are we doomed to be a nation of burger flippers and lawyers?

HOSS, this is a very good question. It's one I've thought about many times b/c I'm going into my Sr. year in ROTC in college and will be commishioned soon. Quite frankly I believe I would have to disobey that order. I cannot attack and fire on honest civilians who have firearms for sporting use. However, that quickly changes if they fire on me. Anyways, I know if we don't do something it can happen, but we're safe for at least 4 yrs. with Bush. As of the fact of trying to fight our own military I believe it's an absurd idea. If push came to shove and they really fought, just look at what we did to the Iraqi's and they were much better armed than we could ever be. I may fight the police and stuff like that, but when the military comes into the scene it's suicide. Don't want to make anyone mad or bash anyones opinions, but quite frankly if anyone thinks they could fight the military and win they're an IDIOT........GH

Your hypothetical scenario will no doubt come to pass one day. If that were about to happen I would start organizing Freemen to resist. I doubt that such a scenario will occure in the near future,perhaps 10 to 20 years out at a minimum.With the majority of our population living in cities and such, not being exposed to the uses of firearms as most country folks are, city dwellers will only see the "BAD" things occurring with firearms thanks to the media. This will turn the "Majority" of Americans against guns and their owners. ( your a bunch of blood thirsty animals ya know ...LOL ).Public sediment will demand that guns be abolished or restricted even further. Perhaps you will see that all firearms must be registered and you are only allowed X amount of rounds per year. This is only the beginning of the end folks!With guns being looked upon as a major problem and with all the media anti gun hype you wacko's will be doomed. Scary thought isn't it!I do think this will happen eventually.With the "majority" of Americans becoming anti gun there will be fewer gun owners in the future, thus you will be a minority and no, you don't get extra ammo just because you are a minority in this scenario.Eventually the goverment passes a law forbiding the owership of firearms and offers to pay you for them. 10 cents on the dollar if your lucky. Now you have a choice, turn them in and get a couple bucks, hide them for hell comes the day and risk prison or take a stance and say, You want them, come and pry my finger off the trigger!In reality, most people, if they are not hungry and left out in the cold and have some kind of life are going to say, hey give me a couple of bucks. Sad but True!The problem I see with this is that once you have given up your guns you are truely at the mercy of your goverment.I am a firm beleaver in trusting my goverment as much as they trust me. Guess what, they don't me so I don't trust them!I recall a post awhile back where one fellow said, "When I was in the service I had an M-16, a M-60 and various other weapons. Now that I am no longer in the service I can no longer be trusted with such weapons."If push comes to shove, I don't have a problem killing a fellow American for what I beleave in. Just think back to the civil war and the reasons for it.Have a good day all.

Greenhead, you are right about the strength of our military. But if it comes to it, then all us gun owner wackos may as well drag down a few of the guys that are trying to take our guns in the first place. Also, remember that it is better to die a free man than to live a slave.

Oh yeah, and while the civilians chances of even putting up a decent fight against the military is practically none, remember that England's military was also considered the strongest military power in the world during that period. And we beat them with a militia, twice, the second time pretty much unaided!

big hunter, your point is well taken. I too would rather die free than be a slave. I was just pointing out the task that would be at hand. This isn't some Hollywood movie like "Red Dawn". I know you and most on this board know that, but I'm sure there are some NUTS out there that actually entertain this idea. As for the fact of us beating the British, that was in a different time and a different era of war. Today the technology is to great, and the combined arms tactics too sound for anyone to have a chance. Back then it was basically muskets and artillery, that's not the case today. Anyway, good reply and this is a good topic......GH

Greenhead, the founding fathers in their wisdom guaranteed the right of the people arm themselves for the purpose of removing a tyrannical government from power if all other means were exhausted. Obviously this would be a last resort proposition that could only be successful if an overwhelming majority of the population arose and took arms. There are over 200 million privately owned firearms in this country, the army numbers less than 500,000 with probably one third of those being actual combat troops. Granted the military is much better trained and enjoys the use of superior weaponry, but even with the military's resources the standing army wouldn't be able to overwhelm the people if say 50 million took up arms. It's just too much overwhelming mass. This is obviously an extreme situation and it's a far cry from a few crazies declaring themselves their own nation and taking on the military. If such a situation were to arise where 50 million people felt the need to overthrow the government then you can bet that there would have to be an extreme reason, such as a dictator like Hitler taking over and committing atrocities. In such a situation where such a large percentage of the population felt compelled to take up arms then it stands to reason that a large number of the military would desert and join the opposition, thereby weakening the military's position even farther. I have to disagree with your assessment that tachnology is too great and the tactics too sound for an armed uprising. Just look at Afghanistan and see what a people with a cause can do against a technologically and tactically superior force. To illustrate what overwhelming numbers can do against a technologically and tactically superior force look at the russians fighting the germans in WWII, the germans fought better but were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers the russians threw at them. Until six months ago I was a Captain in the Marine Corps so I have a bit of a background in combined arms operations. I'm fully convinced that if the overwhelming majority of the population decide to uprise then no army on earth could stop them. I'm also pretty sure the founding fathers knew this and placed the second amendment in the bill of rights to guarantee that real power ultimately belongs to the people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way advocating any kind of rebellion, just pointing out that if the need for a rebellion were so great that it unified the population then it would be successful.

Without hesitation or a moments regret...push me and I push back....besides at that point or possibley even before it will be a constitutionally illegal government and as such it is our duty to take up arms and put it down...then perhaps after the trials and several public executions of various lawyers,international bankers and congressmen who will be found guilty of high treason we can put this crazy out of control government back into the small box it belongs in!!! Hope that answer wasn't too vague for you-LOL Now I pray to God it never comes to that...I love my country and hate to see it perverted into what it's becoming today...I am an American...I live in a constitutional republic....I have certain rights and freedoms which are not to be granted or regulated by anyone or any piece of paper (even if does acknowledge and uphold them)...that said you tread on me past the point of no return and may God have mercy on all our souls because he'll be seeing us both real quick!!! In the mean time...work hard...love your friends and family....vote loudly and often....and just in case don't forget to keep that rifle sighted in and 500-1000 rounds of ammo in the closet...and let us hope we never have to fire a shot at a fellow American-OUT

Greenhead- Congrats on your upcoming graduation thru ROTC. I also graduated from ROTC (in '75). I pose this question to you "What are YOU going to do given the situation of being in the military and you are given/giving the order to harass/attack/fire on your own countrymen for owning/using firearms? Hint: Remember your commissioning oath " to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic(to include the 2nd Amendment)" and the legalities of a lawful vs unlawful order. I know you mentioned this in your first post but you stated that citizens arms were for sporting purposes. The 2nd Amendment makes no such distinction. Bend [This message has been edited by Bend (edited May 07, 2001).][This message has been edited by Bend (edited May 07, 2001).][This message has been edited by Bend (edited May 07, 2001).]

would i fight back in two words HELL YES as the old saying goes they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers cause that would be the only way they would get it.

I admire Crowhunter's optimism. But what happens when they slowly but surely, and peacefully, disarm most of us over the next few decades, and THEN the government gets to a point where it needs a serious check, but we are no longer capable? After it's too late, will we have 50 million who can fight, or even 50 thousand? Where will the arms come from when most of those 200 million have already been given up and melted down? Or will they be given up? I think that confiscation is a long, long way off. But enough regulations and costs and licences and other hoops could (will) be legislated, not to mention the social stigmas, that the vast majority will just turn them in to avoid the hassles, placing the rest of us in an ever shrinking minority. Some will cache them, but how many good people have the conviction to disobey the law? -al

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by JayH: Your hypothetical scenario will no doubt come to pass one day. If that were about to happen I would start organizing Freemen to resist. I doubt that such a scenario will occure in the near future,perhaps 10 to 20 years out at a minimum.With the majority of our population living in cities and such, not being exposed to the uses of firearms as most country folks are, city dwellers will only see the "BAD" things occurring with firearms thanks to the media. This will turn the "Majority" of Americans against guns and their owners. ( your a bunch of blood thirsty animals ya know ...LOL ).Public sediment will demand that guns be abolished or restricted even further. Perhaps you will see that all firearms must be registered and you are only allowed X amount of rounds per year. This is only the beginning of the end folks!With guns being looked upon as a major problem and with all the media anti gun hype you wacko's will be doomed. Scary thought isn't it!I do think this will happen eventually.With the "majority" of Americans becoming anti gun there will be fewer gun owners in the future, thus you will be a minority and no, you don't get extra ammo just because you are a minority in this scenario.Eventually the goverment passes a law forbiding the owership of firearms and offers to pay you for them. 10 cents on the dollar if your lucky. Now you have a choice, turn them in and get a couple bucks, hide them for hell comes the day and risk prison or take a stance and say, You want them, come and pry my finger off the trigger!In reality, most people, if they are not hungry and left out in the cold and have some kind of life are going to say, hey give me a couple of bucks. Sad but True!The problem I see with this is that once you have given up your guns you are truely at the mercy of your goverment.I am a firm beleaver in trusting my goverment as much as they trust me. Guess what, they don't me so I don't trust them!I recall a post awhile back where one fellow said, "When I was in the service I had an M-16, a M-60 and various other weapons. Now that I am no longer in the service I can no longer be trusted with such weapons."If push comes to shove, I don't have a problem killing a fellow American for what I beleave in. Just think back to the civil war and the reasons for it.Have a good day all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> JayH, man you are really getting under my skin, you are making me real angry, your predictions are just like mine. Now how can you and I argue over this if we agree with one another. Keep the faith friend.Bullwnkl.

i have had this conversation w/ a good friend of mine before. the gist of it, in my views, comes to this: should there be an attempt to completely disarm americans in the next 10 years or less, i foresee our 2nd civil war (and remember folks, some of those anti-gov't cults are almost as well armed as our own military).should a disarmament occur after that...i don't really know. i have to believe that there would be a little moaning and groaning, but that most people would give up their guns.i do think that the day will come when it is at least attempted.i am ex-navy, and i would not have a problem w/ fighting it out w/ other 'non-americans' (to be american, you must believe in the constitution...our country is built upon this treasured document...you are non-american if you cannot believe in it) sure, you can have my guns...BULLETS FIRST.

The day will come and sooner than most realize, most will give up thier guns. We have become a dependant society which makes us vulnerable. We are a lazy people who are slowly being modified and conditioned to accept certian things, I.E. that unless you are qualified you shouldn't even think of doing it. An example,how many tune thier cars, change thier oil,my daughter needed a book to tell her how to raise my granddaughter. To many experts, you used to be called upon to help the police, now you get into more trouble than the criminal... As a side note the question of if they shoot at me, if go to a man house to confiscate his belongings, not everyone will be obliging, so you must deside before then if you can live with the results, reguardless of who shoots at whom...

short243, when i first read your post, it really upset me. i started to write a reply to it, then i stopped, and realized you are absolutely correct. truth hurts, i guess. i started thinking of all the ways to defend against your statement, and couldn't think of anything really. americans have become lazy. we rely on the gov't too much to do this for us, and give us that.the more we (as a people) let the gov't give us, the more power we give it. and, if we remember high school history: absolute power absolutely corrupts. when the guns go, and i think they eventually will, the people will have no effective means of fighting back.i think that the root of the problem is that there is simply too much gov't in our daily lives. think of all the silly laws that have passed, or are in the process of being passed. micromanagement, if you will. the gov't shouldn't be compelled to protect me from myself, eg, seat belt laws. the info is out that if i don't wear one, my chances of surviving an accident are reduced. leave it at that. don't go on to provide fines and punishments against me for not wearing one. i will harm nobody but myself if i choose not to wear one. the list goes on.anyway, thanks for the slap...i'm more awake now.------------------ Hunting is not a matter of life or death. It is much more important than that.

Big Time, didn't mean to slap anyone, just an observation.I don't post alot , working 55/60+ hrs a week will do that, most times what I would have said is already said. I totally agree about the gov passing to protective laws. My dad was in WW2 and grewup in what is still rural W.Va., back then it would have been classified isolated, even then they knew that smoking was addictived and harmful, so now all of sudden it is new??????? Most law suits should be laughed out of court, it's just a sign of the times.( oh I don't smoke ).We as a nation want to pass the buck, blame someone else,be the victim.Not may will stepup and say I screwedup or made a mistake, it called responsibility, something that got lost in liberalism.Sorry, didn't mean to unload, just sometimes I gotta wonder.......

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GreenHead: HOSS, this is a very good question. It's one I've thought about many times b/c I'm going into my Sr. year in ROTC in college and will be commishioned soon. Quite frankly I believe I would have to disobey that order. I cannot attack and fire on honest civilians who have firearms for sporting use. However, that quickly changes if they fire on me. Anyways, I know if we don't do something it can happen, but we're safe for at least 4 yrs. with Bush. As of the fact of trying to fight our own military I believe it's an absurd idea. If push came to shove and they really fought, just look at what we did to the Iraqi's and they were much better armed than we could ever be. I may fight the police and stuff like that, but when the military comes into the scene it's suicide. Don't want to make anyone mad or bash anyones opinions, but quite frankly if anyone thinks they could fight the military and win they're an IDIOT........GH<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I must respectfully disagree that our military, no matter how well regimented in purpose, could overcome literally millions of determined and armed citizens on our own soil.Look no further than Viet Nam to see how truly difficult a task it is to root out and round up a people on their own turf.Saddam Hussein had assembled the Iraqi forces at the Kuwaiti border, on desert terrain where cover was virtually non existent. This situation, for a military as sophisiticated as our own, was like "shooting fish in a barrel."But in America's vast expanses of wilderness, and even in smaller wooded areas, concealment would be plentiful. Deer rifles pressed into that most solemn of services would blaze at random from the trees, domiciles and other structures. Yes, our military's armament is awesome (thank God and Reagan), but in this case they would find their task much like hunting cockroaches with a sledgehammer.Infrared devices which are often useful at locating life in the trees would be confounded by the game population in the forests. Have they found Eric Rudolph yet?This all said, I must admit that I have a somewhat less jaded view of what our future may hold. Call me naive, but I think our government is fully aware of the excercise in futility that an attempted armed takeover of this populace would be. I'll grant you all that I deeply mistrust the United Nations, and I know that the powers that be within that organization view America's militia (we the people ARE the militia, by the way) as a problem. I believe if there were an attempt on our president's life that UN thugs would be behind it.God bless you all, and know your deer rifle's 600 yard zero...Wizard

Wizard, your point is a good one, but I must respectfully disagree. While we may be able to make the military think twice in some cases, I don't think it would be too much of a fight even in the woods. Most of the military can move quickly from place to place, and they also can move quietly from place to place. Most (not all) hunters and various other peoples have almost no skill at woodsmanship. They can't move very quietly, and most are probably out of shape enough that they can't move quickly either. And I'll bet the army guys with those M-16s could probably outshoot many, if not most, hunters and sportsman and such. In Vietnam, they up against another army that had all of those skills and had the advantage of knowing the terrain much better than our guys. If it comes to another civil war, they will be fighting mostly overweight (not mostly, but still), out of shape guys that can't move quietly if their life depended upon it. Admittedly, we would know the terrain better, but our lack of training and skill would cost us big time. Now, I won't say that anybody on this campfire is like the above. I don't know you all, and I don't want to offend anybody here. But I do think that would apply to the average Joe whose hunting season is the duration of deer season, and whose idea of sighting in a gun is shooting it once on the day before.

I'll post once more here, and let that be my last word on this subject.The days of the virile American male may be, as some here obviously believe, over. It is my contention that those folks are wrong. If they aren't wrong, then America has no hope. I cannot and will not believe that. I have deep faith in the ability of Americans to rise to the needs of dire occasions, and in my own optimistic view, those few extra pounds on some of us may actually come in more handy than not in an extended conflict. Right or wrong on that point, I still maintain my belief that Americans have a greater collective resolve than some give us credit for. I think that there are ample individuals, men and women, who won't cower in the face of a military attack. I truly believe that the fighting spirit inherent in most Americans would be awakened, and any enemy, be it foreign or domestic, would be ultimately overwhelmed. A couple of years ago there was actually a study into this very matter conducted by an ex-military officer (Army I believe). His conclusion was that a martial law takeover of the population of America, if resisted by the percentage of Americans expected to resist, would be a "certain tactical failure in 90 to 180 days." If memory serves, this report had been commissioned in the shadow of uncertainty concerning the year 2000 changeover.What concerns me is not the question as to whether we could stand as citizens against military forces and prevail (this question has already been answered in the affirmative by individuals far more learned than those of us at this forum). What concerns me is the apathy and sense of "learned helplessness" which has apparently been well instilled into folks who would be better served (and would better serve America) by seeking and cultivating the confidence necessary to stand and fight for our liberty if threatened. If the forces that may eventually oppose us are successful in convincing us that "resistance is futile," then they will have won without firing a shot. Standing and fighting, not cowering, as we break the Tree of Liberty's fast with that protein rich sustenance which, according to Jefferson, it craves "from time to time" is exactly what our forefathers and God would have us do.In closing I'll advance the notion that by reading between the lines of the words in this thread, one may glean insight into just how each of us might behave in a doomsday scenario such as the one being discussed here. Unless I miss my count, the "liberators" are the majority by a margin of better than three to one. And so I'm encouraged... Respectfully, Wizard

Well Wizard, we'll agree to disagree (respectfully), and hope to God that we never have to find out who is right. If that day comes, I'll pray to God that you are right.

Folks, this is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. Living in Michigan, I have seen the "militia" up close and frankly, I'm not impressed. The ones that I saw were mostly "wannabees". They may have had some military experience, but they were many years and pounds removed from the days when they could hump a ruck all day long. Sure, there are all kinds of examples like the Vietcong, the Afghans, or even our own minutemen. What we forget is that all of these "militias" suffered astronomical losses compared to the professional armies that they fought against. Another thing, it's easy to sit here and beat our chests when our families are safe and we are warm dry and comfortable. But, think about what we'd be facing; our families being rounded up and carted away to "re-education" camps, our houses and belongings burnt or confiscated, all of this while we live like hunted animals. How many of us would be willing to sacrifice all that we love when the alternative is to lose everything? Remember this, the Geneva Convention won't apply to us because we aren't an army, we'd be terrorists in the eyes of the state. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just cast a realistic light on the subject. Having said all of that, I too would like to believe that I would have the courage to stand. It IS better to die on your feet than to live on your knees (it was Emiliano Zapata that said that). To attempt to fight a professional army (even the sad, dispirited one we field today) in the woods and fields of this country is suicide. It's the cities where the most good can be done. If GI Joe has to worry about getting his a-- shot off every time he goes outside, pretty soon he'll get panicky. Panicky troops do stupid things (Remember My Lai?) which would win more people to our cause. Stand up fights are for TV and Movies. Sure, I can't run 5 miles in 40 minutes anymore, but I CAN pick off a prairie dog at 400 yards. That gives me an edge. Armored troops have to pee some time, that means getting out of the tank. Since the average person is way bigger than a pd, I'll be further away. If I wound him, so what? The screaming demoralizes the enemy and creates more problems than if he just died. Plus, in the city, ANYONE can be your enemy. The barber, the waiter, the bartender. Just ask Nam vets about that. Will it happen in my lifetime? I hope to God not. In any case, all of this can be avoided if people would just start paying attention and holding their representative's feet to the fire. Don't just vote once a year and go back to sleep, get involved. We didn't get this way over night, we won't get back unless we fight harder. It really annoys me when I ask someone the stats on their favorite sports team and they ramble on forever about each player and the team's strategy and how they can win the Super Bowl/ Stanley Cup/ World Series/ NBA Championship, yet you ask them who their representative in Congress is and they stare at you blankly. By all means, maintain your vigilance but don't let your first act be participation in the last stand!

Good question and honestly, one that I would say most of us couldn't truely answer unless we're put into the position.Again folks, if it comes to this, then we've already lost our rights. Start today to keep your rights, lets not let this hypothetical scenerio see the light of day.PH

Lots of interesting input here. Realistically, I think that a scant 10% of firearms owners would rally to defend hearth and home or God given essential rights.The Constitution and Bill of Rights are after all, extensions of that and even if repealed or ratified or ignored, do not negate the truth of it..That'd be enough.Whether the ones who aided and abetted the disarmament and subjugation of the American sheeple were from U.N. peacekeeping or N.A.T.O. forces, or home grown Americans 'trying to do their job' having no education of what this country is about, the body bags sent home would soon have the message delivered.I'm with most of you who pray that time does not come. In the meantime, while this incremental world system invades america like termites in a mighty building..teach your children. Keep your proficiencies well honed.Get financially free from credit debt. Maintain a lower profile concerning what organizations you belong to, letters written, vendors bought from and even from sites such as this on controversial threads.. Develop a small 'support group' of like minded, stable and trustworthy folks...jim