Getting our gear ready for our Colorado elk hunt and would like to take our propane cook stove and small lantern to save a little space and weight vs. canned fuel . Just my two sons and I instead of a larger group .
Does propane burn well at 11,000 feet ? Our Coleman fuel stove is finicky enough. We get packed in on horses and dropped off . Less horses = less $$
Thanks

There is a lot of water in suspension in LPG, which is not normally a problem, but when temps plummet it will freeze up in orfices and fail you. White gas is reliable in the cold.

Propane works fine at high elevation and in the cold. Although it can separate/stratify. When this happens you can hear the air escaping into the stove burner but it won't light. All you have to do to correct this is shake the canister vigorously.

I suppose that you want to use what you already own. However, if I were paying the high cost to be packed in on horses, I wouldn't hesitate to spend a few bucks to get the right kind of gear. So, I would use a white gas stove such as an MSR Whisperlite International.

Also, modern LED lanterns have been developed to the state that no lantern using any kind of fuel can compete with them for practicality and/or convenience.

KC: My experience differs from yours regarding canister stoves.
Why Does My Canister Stove Fail in Cold Weather?
Matt Heid
/
October 28, 2014
/
2 minute read
Share:
My canister stove is simple and convenient to operate, and has long been my go-to three-season option. But it sucks in the winter or any time temperatures start dropping below freezing, when they work poorly to not at all. Why?


Why, stove, why???
Photo: Michael R Perry/[bleep] Commons
It boils down to some basic chemistry and physics. Canisters contain a compressed blend of butane and propane. The pressure keeps most of the mixture in a liquid state (you can hear it sloshing around inside if you shake the canister), though a small amount vaporizes into a gas above the liquid. When you attach a stove to the canister and turn it on, the gas rises out of the canister to feed the stove burner and heat your food or water.

In order for this to work, the pressure inside the canister must be greater than the pressure outside the canister. But as the canister temperature drops below freezing, its internal pressure starts to diminish until this is no longer the case and the burner sputters and goes out.

Why? The primary culprit is butane, which stops vaporizing at 31 degrees Fahrenheit (its boiling point). (Isobutane—a chemical variation of butane—continues vaporizing down to 11 degrees Fahrenheit.)

Butane is the primary component in fuel canisters, typically accounting for 70 to 80 percent of the fuel mixture; propane makes up the remainder. Unlike butane, however, propane continues vaporizing even in very cold temps (down to minus-43 degrees Fahrenheit). This has some interesting implications for cold-weather performance.

Among these is the fact that the propane will burn off at a disproportionate rate in sub-freezing temperatures. As the remaining mixture shifts increasingly toward butane, less and less fuel vaporizes until eventually the canister pressure drops too low to continue feeding the stove. This means that a brand new fuel canister may work for a while in sub-freezing conditions, but can stop working long before the canister is empty.

There’s also another factor at play that affects a canister’s cold-weather performance. The process of vaporization—the changing of physical state from liquid to gas—takes energy. In a fuel canister, that energy comes mostly from the warmth (latent heat) in the fuel mixture itself, which is why a stove canister will become noticeably cooler while the stove is operating. In cold temperatures, this effect can drive the canister temperature down and stop the burner cold—even if the ambient temperature is above the fuel’s boiling point.

For an in-depth and accessible breakdown of the science behind all this, this FAQ on fuel mixtures is an excellent read.
So what to do? If you expect to do much winter camping, buy a liquid fuel stove that runs on white gas, which works well even in bitterly cold temperatures. If you are out with a canister stove in borderline, near-freezing conditions, warm up the canister before you use it. Stick it inside your layers for a while, or bring it into your sleeping bag at night. Placing the canister in a shallow dish or pan with an inch or two of water can also help keep it above freezing while in use.

Good info, I learned something. What about the disposable 16 oz. bottles that have been refilled with propane, do those work in freezing weather in your experience?

Having used both and being weight conscious of what is in panniers, Coleman fuel/white gas, pound for pound will give you more heat than propane. A 1# bottle of propane includes 14 ounces of steel container. 2 one gallon cans of Coleman fuel /white gas will last your entire hunt.

Put a new generator in your stove and lantern.
If you are getting packed in,you need to find a fold up wood burning stove for your heat source. If you get stuck in your tent for a few days because of weather,you will use that pro pane up pretty fast

bobmn:

I don't think the OP is referring to canister stoves. My understanding is that the term canister stove refers to small backpack stoves such as an MSR Pocket Rocket or Optimus Crux or Snow Peak Gega. They burn Isobutane which is a blend of butane and propane. Since the fuel contains some butane, it performs poorly at cold temperatures. I think the OP is referring to propane appliances such as those made by Coleman or the cheap knockoffs that you can get at Wal Mart.

saddlesore has correctly recommended white gas fuel for cold temps and I agree.

I haven't used refilled canisters of propane however, propane is propane and it performs fine in cold temps. So i'm guessing that it will perform OK. The problem is that the 16oz. propane canisters are heavy and bulky. So if you take enough for a week long trip, they will amount to some considerable bulk and weight.

Propane has about 90,000 BTUs per gallon. Gasoline has about 115,000 BTUs per gallon. And white gas (naphtha) has about 125,000 BTUs per gallon. At altitude an/or cold temps the differential grows. Another factor is the propane container feeding the stove. The 16 oz. bottles are the worst compared to a 10 or 20 pound tank. Next winter try to grill when the outside air temperature is 32* F or lower with a half empty bottle. I tried to fry fish outside an ice house on a 2 burner propane stove. Could not get the oil hot enough. My experience propane appliances are noticeably less efficient below 32* F. Even propane lanterns are much dimmer in cold weather.

I camp at 11K and have no issues with my Mr Heater, lantern, stove, etc. Canvas tent no problem, nylon moisture = bad!

Where weight and bulk are not a problem I use a small 5 lb propane tank. I use a Tee and run a stove and lantern off of it.

Hmmm . . . Interesting postulation. I was just wondering if I have ever used propane appliances when the room temperature was below 32°F. I've base camped many times when the outside ambient air temp was well below freezing. But the air temp inside the tent was always higher. I can't think of a situation when the inside air temp was very cold because the first thing that we do in the morning is fire up the heaters. So even though the temp inside the tent may get cold at night, it has always been warmer by the time that we start to cook.

Thanks for the replies . I just invested in a seek outside courthouse and a titanium stove for heat and we have a jetboil for hot water . Bobmn is correct on those small canisters when its cold , we usually wrap some clothes around the canisters and keep them in the foot of a sleeping bag .

Kc, the led lantern is probably a good idea and I will give that a thought . We have a small , compact propane lantern and 2 inflatable solar Luci lights that do a great job for lighting . We hang a luci inside and one outside.

Saddlesore , you are right about gas as far as bulk and output . maybe I will bring the suitcase coleman gas stove. Frying bacon and eggs and heating up some frozen food is mostly all the stove will get used for .

hunting1 , you are right on the nylon, our tent has a liner that I hope solves the moisture issue.

Coleman 2 burner propane camp stoves, no problem, you will be able to cook anything you would normally cook on one. Coleman 2 mantle lantern, no problem, it will burn bright enough to see all you need to see in the tent.

The unknown is how much you will use. In 7 days of hunting, the lantern will go through 2-3 bottles (we use it 4-5hrs/day) and we use another 2.5 bottles for a one burner stove but it's only used to start water boiling and heating up old coffee. My uncle always packs 8 bottles up the hill; the mules have never complained. We continue to use propane bottles because they are durable and impervious to spills and accidents. It's doubtful that a couple extra bottles of propane will push you over the edge for an additional animal.

Centennial , 8 bottles is what my sons and I were guessing . Using the jetboil and the top of the wood stove will help out a lot.I am pretty sure there will be a ban on campfires so we won't likely be using the fire grate for trout and grouse

If there is a ban on campfires, your wood stove might also be banned. One year, when there was ban, it included wood burning stoves. Since I camped at the truck.I put a propane burner inside the wood stove.

Re moisture/condensation.I have 30,000 btu Blue Flame propane heater that I used in a 12 x 15 canvas wall tent that was poly tarped. Not as bad as nylon tent, but it certainly was humid inside when we fired the heater up. That Seek Outside tent is going to give you condensation just from body moisture/breath. Inside tent will be frost covered in the morning and then it starts to rain inside as that frost melts. Any propane use will add to that along with boiling water.The wood stove helps tremendously as does a Colman fuel stove.I have been there and went thru all the iterations.My advice is all LED lanterns,no propane, even the Jet Boil and pack a suit case Coleman stove and 2 gallons of fuel You will reduce volume and weight.

If some else is packing you in on horses, I am pretty sure they will have a volume and weight restriction.You wont have an unlimited supply of pack animals

My compliant with the small propane bottles is I see too many campers/hunters that throw them in the brush after they are empty instead of packing them out.

SS , my goal is less horses not more , hoping to keep it to 4 packhorses . A ban including the wood stove , would definitely go along with that advise.

2 guys and four pack horses. You should be able to take you want. Three ought to do it. One for each guy's personal gear and food, one for camp..

3 guys , but yes that's the ratio, 1 per guy plus camp on one .

So you are basically on a back packing trip and the horses are there to give you and the "back packs" a lift up the hill. I misunderstood and thought you were doing a drop camp into a pre setup camp with wall tents etc. Space and weight are a premium for sure. What season...or did i miss that?

In addition to the Seek tent, i would highly recommend a tarp to give you some elbow room if your tent is smaller than the Courthouse or the 6 person teepee. 3 guys in a small tent (4 man teepee) in really bad and wet weather (think feet of snow overnight if you are hunting in Oct or later) is a lot to ask of even the best of friends. My cousin has a 4 man teepee and there is no way we could get 3 guys with gear in it in an Oct hunt...just my two cents.

Last Oct in the White River there was a fire ban during 1st rifle. USFS sent employees around reminding people. The problem is there was a caveat for wood burning stoves; they were allowed in the policy letter posted on line, and the poor GS 9 didnt know it. He later left a note on our tent saying he was mistaken, they were allowed. Point being, its worth calling/researching the details before you head up the hill. Maybe that was TMI.

Given the space, you are probably better off with a white gas stove (i use a whisperlite) and LED lights. Davis tent has a two LED light system that came with a solar charger that worked great last year. Lightbulbs could even be used to charge your cell phone. Its now on my permanent hunting/camping packing list and i hate "gadgets".

https://www.davistent.com/product/solar-led-lights/

Centennial ,

Yes we are just paying to be packed in and dropped off. Seek outside courthouse and archery in Sept. 3 through the 10th . It's about a 4 hour ride in .
Thanks

3-10 Sept...you will be fine temp wise. Theres a chance of a daily shower/T-storm or a day or two of wetish weather but you should be fine. Cook simple and wear an extra fleece if you get chilly. 4 hrs, what wilderness area...Weminuche? Have a great time!

OK.my feeble old brain did not catch the "2" sons.I suppose you still might be carrying smaller back packs

Things to be aware of with the tent. With stove one person may be closer to the stove than desired. I had 4 person Luxe Megahorn that was for 4 people.Two were max with the stove.Take a poly tarp for the floor for wet ground.Also an extra tarp as mentioned above to cover gear that won't fit in tent.

I think Seek Outside has page on how to reduce condensation in the tent.

Also need some type of cord.pulley system to hang food from.You didn't mention what unit or season, but black bears are active past the 1st rifle.We have seen them it the 2nd.Some units have more than .Probably not a big concern,but don't store any food in your tent.I f you can cook your meals outside under that extra tarp.

Might want to look at Desert Walker fold up cots.Only about 5 "high,but gets you off the ground

I've used Coleman stoves with Coleman canisters up to 11k in the past. As noted by others, when it's really cold out it helps to shake the bottle before starting the stove. If you are planning to cook under a tarp or out in the open and it's really cold, the bottle might need to be jiggled a bit to slosh the liquid around so it will continue to "gas off" . It helps to put the bottles in the tent at night where it's warmer, so lighting the stove is easier in the morning.

I am one who does not like liquid fuel stoves and lanterns--especially when the fuel is being carried in a backpack or pannier. Although there are really good containers that seal well out there these days, liquid fuel seems to find a way to leak/spill often enough.

Don't know what food you and your boys are planning to cook, but a backpacking stove or two with isobutane cannisters are a whole lot smaller and lighter.

I've used refilled bottles for years. They're just like new ones. The trick is getting them full while leaving the required air space in the top.

Made all my choices . Liquid fuel it is and we load up and head to the Flat Tops after elk tomorrow. Good luck to All this season . I’ll report back in a week or so
Thanks all

Bp