As many of you know, NM for years has lumped all rocky mountain and desert big horn into one hunt code per species. NM did this to ensure there were NR and outfitter pool tags. All other hunts in NM have a specific hunt code per hunt, species, weapon type and time frame.

Without combing all hunts, there would be no NR or outfitter pool tags for any sheep hunt due to the numbers per hunt.

The residents have been raising hell that the NMDGF and commission are not following the law by doing this. In the last commission meeting, the commission is sending this to legal for clarification to see if they are following the law. It is pretty clear to many they are not following the law as written. The commission just got spanked by the NM Supreme Court over “navigable water ways” and I think they are trying to avoid that from happening again.

I’m torn on whether I want to see this reversed. Obviously I would like to slightly increase my odds of ever drawing a sheep tag, but I wonder what the unintended consequences will be? There will obviously be a financial impact from losing the NR tags which could be passed on to the resident, which I would be fine with, but many wouldn’t be. Will it impact the participation of national groups on the conservation of sheep?

What’s everyone thoughts?

I don't know squat about NM sheep tag legalities, but know I have never been drawn for one. I will leave the decisions up to the residents whom "own" those animals to decide or at least lobby for.

I will say though, that there are ALWAYS unintended consequences to this type of thing. In 2010 (ish) when Montana residents pushed to drop outfitter allocation tags (to which I cautiously supported), I was apprehensive about what the downstream results would be. The initiative passed and IIRC it turned out that license revenue dropped so much that the state wanted to raise prices for all tags, to which residents further complained. I am sure all kinds of other downstream effects also happened but am not recalling any specifics.

Ya, I’m not sure if the consequences are worth the minimal gain in odds. It is nice to see a commission bucking the status quo though.

You back home?

Ya, got in late Sat night. Checked lynx sets yesterday and today am doing whatever I can to avoid the 500 eMails I got when I was out.

I don’t care one way or another. I feel bad for NRs, especially the DIY guys because I like to hunt other states too. I’ve made my living guiding hunters but I don’t agree with the outfitter pool. If they did a 15% NR allocation across the board residents would gain 1% and outfitters could book hunts based on reputation or price and not be so regulated. But we live in a welfare state so I guess it’s fitting. Residents cried about the antelope hunts and look where that got them.

I remember back in the 2000's, NM wildlife federation raised hell with the G&F commission that NM residents weren't getting their share of the elk tags (10 years I never drew as a resident). They finally straightened it out where residents can receive the majority of the elk tags which I approve of even though I now live out of state (and probably will never draw a NM elk tag).

I do like the idea of a 15% across the board NR allocation though. I mainly apply for Unit 34 and 36 because I worked in and know the Sacramento mountains well enough for a DIY hunt. If I applied somewhere else in NM, I might choose an outfitter that knows the country in their unit.

I just wish they would do a 90/10 and be done, no guide welfare crap. If you draw you can hire a guide or go DIY. On the sheep, I agree with you, NM needs the national grass groups so it is a slippery slope trying to please everyone. They do need to follow the law though.

^^^This^^^^

I think NM G&F and the national grass roots groups should come to an agreement on the auction/raffle tags sold each year for fundraising. I think one tag each for the rocky mountain and desert bighorn would be a good start. With the winner having his/her choice of unit and the season starting on Sept. 1st and ending Dec. 31st.

I to wish they’d go with a straight split. I’d be good with 85/15 or 90/10. Like you, most (not all) of the guides/outfitters I know would be good with a straight split as well.

The reality is, if they drop the way they are doing the sheep hunt codes now, residents odds will only increase in theory. I worry that by doing that, the national organizations will have no interest in leveraging money for projects when 99% of their members won’t benefit, but like Hunting1 said, we’ll see how the interpretation of the law is read. Pretty sure if it stays as is, a few groups will push it in the courts like the waterways.

You nailed it on the welfare state and resident hunters not looking at the big picture.

This will be civil, when they open E-Plus, it’s going to be a cat fight.

The rocky brought $310,000 this year and the desert brought $210,000 at the auction.

Taos pueblo brought $200,000 and $285,000.

I’ve always had a hard time finding the exact amount on the 2 raffle tags, 2019 brought in ~$130,000.

Yeah, less than 1% is still less than 1%! I’m still hopeful though!
I’m not sure the big groups will pull out, they still make a ton of money off of the auctions. And NM is lucky they are still selling record high numbers at auction( which probably isn’t worth what they’re selling for anyway) and many of the tags get thrown in the trash. Win win.

That’s a good point, they would still have interest through the auction/raffle tags, didn’t think of it that way.

It amazes me how many of the auction tags go unused on all species. Like you say, win win.

I’m probably going to have to be satisfied with just watching them either way.

If I steal that ladrone tag out from under you, you’ll be the first guy I call to recruit!! 😬

People pay $2-300K for auction tags and don't use them, or even hunt on those tags? Am I understanding this conversation?

Yes sir. More so on the super tag packages and stand alone deer and elk tags. Not so much with the sheep tags. The sheep guys come to hunt. It’s a big tax break. When you’re spending that much for a tax break, business obligations and billion dollar deals are more important than a stinky ol buck or bull.

NM’, may know different, but my understanding is the buyer of the desert tag ate it this year?

Whoa! I hadn’t heard that. I’m not tapped into the sheep deal as much as I wish. Just didn’t find a ram or ???

Not sure, was just told he ate it. I’ll try calling a guy that will know for sure and the story if true.

We had some gov tags go un filled last year here as well. Guess if ya got that kinda scratch to spend, it probably doesn’t matter..

Huh...eating a tag because you couldn't find the one is one thing, but I had read those posts as in the high bidders didn't even try to hunt on that tag. I see now what you're saying.

It drives me nuts when people dillute draw odds or rack up bids with no real intention to even try. It is their right to I guess but that doesn't make it any less frustrating. I see it a lot in Idaho and is why they started their second draw...to sell tags that others had drawn but didn't pay for or pick up by the deadline. Roughly 10% of very desirable deer, elk and antelope tags were not being picked up by those who drew them. Outside of unforseen emergencies, why even bother to apply if you're not going to try to hunt on that tag? All they're doing is dilluting draw odds.

Was he hunting your country?

It does suck but I think our G&F builds no shows into the tag numbers! Well, this many guys aren’t gonna show up so we can add a few tags to the hunt code, make a few more bucks! 😂

I don’t think so. GT killed the Gov. tag out of there last year.

That was crazy, the dad had the auction tag and the son had the raffle.

Trying to verify this years, now it’s got wanting to know for sure. I may switch it up a little this year.

This thread got me thinking.

Donald Trump is paying all expenses for you. Money and time is not an issue, what tag would you get?

Pretty sure it would be a desert tag for me.

It does piss a guy off. I know of 2 16D first rifle tags that didn’t get hunted last year due to a softball tournament.

Governor’s Mule deer tag.

😁

Desert Bighorn for me. My dream hunt.

Ugh. NM only that’s tough, deer or desert. Throw AZ in the mix and then it’s a little easier to say Deer.
Everyone plays that game. If you win the raffle, would you hunt or sell??? I think if I won I would sell it because I know how bad the deer herd is doing and my expectations are so unrealistic I’d never find the deer I wanted and the pressure to produce would make me miserable. So I’d sell it and buy a management deer/coues hunt in Sonora!

Never gonna draw a sheep tag. Leave it up to you scrappers. Good luck.

WTF! Only way I couldn't hunt is due to illness or something dire in the family. But a softball tournament, geez.

I also wonder how many animal rights activists put in for these tags hoping to take away a tag from a hunter?

Desert bighorn for me also. Would you go Hatchets or Peloncillos?

Knew a guy who drew a Hatchet DBH tag a few years ago. He decided to do it himself. Made a half-dozen scouting trips (an 8 or 9 hour drive, one-way). Managed to locate a ram or two. Then came the hunt. No sheep to be found. They'd moved off to who knows where. Spent 10 days floundering around the range in futility. Finally, on the afternoon of the last day, he attempted a very long shot on a ram he'd spotted - and missed. The kicker here is that he was the only unguided tag holder (out of 7, I believe) and was the only one who didn't get a ram.

Would be a hard choice. Not a good answer, but would depend on the year which area I’d chose.

They do move around a bunch.

I want to hunt them real bad, but would hope to have the right people around, cause the pressure could take all the fun out of it.

The Gov. desert ram was killed.

Interesting thread. In SD we only have 3 or 4 draw sheep tags. 6-7 years back the wild sheep people lobbied hard for an auction tag to raise funds for sheep restoration projects and it passed. Worked good for a couple of years then Noem got in, croaks big out of one side of her mouth advocating for corn alcohol production and out of the other side of her mouth for pheasant habitat restoration two opposite posed land issues. She ordered the gfp commission to purloin the auction tag proceeds for habitat restoration on private land. Then stuck all of us with a habitat stamp fee to raise money for her idea of pheasant restoration on private land which is all leased to pheasant outfitters. See not only does the government hose citizens but likes to bug fug sheep too. Now you know the rest of the story.
PS NONE OF THE other various wildlife organizations in the state ask for auction tags any more to raise funds gee wonder why.

Just to be fair, I just put in the lucky app for one of the 24 desert sheep tags, so you all can fight over the remaining 23.

I’d reluctantly take a rocky.

The problem is that the states game commisioners are crooked as Hillary Clinton. There is one section in the dry Cimarron area that one of the commisioners borders, so they passed a no hunting ban on the State land adjacent to his so that noone can hunt any game species on the State land. Granted these are small sections, but the land is very landlocked and checkerboarded...they posted it as a "bighorn study area".

Ya, that whole Dry Cimmaron release and closure was sketchy as hell.

Sims thought he would end up with LO authorizations out of that deal. (Almost did)

Eta; the more I think about it, he might have got it?

Gonzaga, that’s your country. Did he get authorizations, or does he just pretty much control the hunts?

Oh yeah, Sims got them tags....he is crooked A.F.

Lest we forget that he has those hay fields that the Elk run back and forth to and grow huge....seen a 392" bull come out of there before.

Lyons and NMGF gave him a pretty sweet deal.

Lyons is crooked too. He traded that land deal that got reversed.
I cante remember what the ranchers name was in the black lake area around Ocate is. But Lyons traded that state land up there for that desert land around Bernallio. Locals that had hunted that area for generation threw a big enough fit that it was reversed.
How would someone think that pristine country that holds Elk, Mule Deer, Bear and other game is equal to land only fit for coyotes at best.
Lyons is lucky he didn't get hung in his front yard for that one....

Leo Sims never got a bighorn tag. Not one. They wouldn’t give it to him unless he relinquished the state lease agreement he weaseled into and he wouldn’t do it. He sold his ranch about 7 years ago and actually died a short time later

Am I remembering right that you hunted the ranch?

If so, what are the rams like now?

I have a video somewhere of those bighorn down there....

Just put in for Desert Ram: 2nd choice for Rockys.
Coues, Ibex, barbary and oryx too. I said FÜCK YOU to the elk in 16B this year.

I am not liking my odds, nor am I liking the interest I gotta pay for such a low odds draw. Someone has to draw though...I think there is only one desert tag given out non-residents in NM???

Yes, 1 in the NR draw.

Going to be interesting to see if fuel prices, inflation and people not having a pocket full of ‘rona bucks has any affect on numbers. Thanks to 2 pod casts and 30,000 more apps, one of my go to elk hunts odds was almost cut in half.

Thanks for the contribution.

I put in for deer (bow), javelina, cow elk and oryx.

Hoping to get at least one tag this year instead of the big goose egg of last year.

Ya, hopefully I do better than 0/7 again. Changed things up this year on a few hunts so we’ll see. Some of my choices last year were almost a guarantee till last year.

I did my usual stuff, trying to mix and match with other states dates.

Lots of the hunts I want a no guided NR doesn't even have an available tag to even try to get.

I'll likely just end up with a deer tag, I hope...

Ya, we hose the DIY NR.

There will be another push to eliminate the outfitter pool next year, but it’s an uphill fight for sure.

I gotta admit, I am trying for the outfitter pool for barbary and coues. Not to have a guide, but for the better draw odds. I'll do the 2 day thing to be legal, then strike out on my own.

I can sympthasize with NM residents on the outfitter pool thing and hope it goes away, despite my taking advantage of it. It is what it is...

Well, at least I won't be competing against you dude....grin.

I have a cow elk hunt scheduled this year with an outfitter in NM. How does that figure into this conversation?

I even look at the outfitter pool, but it doesn’t really help me.

I’d like to see a straight 87/13 split. 13% would give the NR’s 3 tags in the hunts that have 25, like Ibex etc. without any of the round up problems. Doesn’t answer the sheep problem, but I have my doubts that will get changed.

If you’re already scheduled, I’d guess that’s with a LO authorization and those have no affect the R/NR quota.

Eta; just remembered, it has to be an authorization, NR are not eligible for antlerless tags. I wish that would change too. ( for selfish reasons)

It looks like NM is trying to make bighorn sheep a resident only thing, according to some recent reports. I believe a formal proposal has been made and letters have been sent to the commissioners. That would increase the resident pool by 7(?) Bighorn tags I believe.

I doubt I would ever draw the one non guided non resident desert tag so I guess this would keep me from paying interest on a $3,173 bill for 2 months a year...I really wouldn't have an issue seeing this get passed, other than the perception that sheep numbers are so low that they're reducing opportunity overall. That isn't really what is happening, but I suspect some will interpret it that way.

I suspect the outfitters will put a hell of a fight up though. We will see.

It will be interesting to see what the AG says on this. The outfitting industry lost one battle this year already. This goes back years to the Terk injunction when for years, NR’s at times were drawing almost all the sheep tags.

They say the majority of the residents book with an outfitter on both sheep anyways, so probably not a big hit to them?

This is the verbiage in question, specifically time frame.

For the purposes of Chapter 17 NMSA 1978:

A. “hunt code” means a description used to identify and define the species, weapon type and time frame authorized for a specific hunt;

I don’t see it lasting, even if the AG tells the NMGF they are wrong. They will just change it through legislation which could have an affect on a bunch of things, who knows.

I'm in again, at 1 in 1200 odds,

We can dream ya know.

Like one of my buddy says, “someone’s gotta draw”. Might as well be me!

I’m felling it this year. Already talking to Carl about my pedestal.😂

Dang! Looks like he’ll be doing two! 😬

Hope to see this one in person before it leaves.

I think I saw that on his IG page. Who’s ram is that? Beautiful. I love the Nelsoni types. I wonder if that’s a NM tahr?

Pretty sure it’s a teenage kid that killed that one. Not sure on the tahr.

Picked up my dads Caballo ram
Last week.

Did u ever run across a guide named Jim Bobb lives outside Nogal right inside the Lincoln forest? I did two very successful elk hunts with him drawn as a NR. A GREAT GUIDE AND FAMILY MAN.