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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2009
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As many of you know, NM for years has lumped all rocky mountain and desert big horn into one hunt code per species. NM did this to ensure there were NR and outfitter pool tags. All other hunts in NM have a specific hunt code per hunt, species, weapon type and time frame.
Without combing all hunts, there would be no NR or outfitter pool tags for any sheep hunt due to the numbers per hunt.
The residents have been raising hell that the NMDGF and commission are not following the law by doing this. In the last commission meeting, the commission is sending this to legal for clarification to see if they are following the law. It is pretty clear to many they are not following the law as written. The commission just got spanked by the NM Supreme Court over “navigable water ways” and I think they are trying to avoid that from happening again.
I’m torn on whether I want to see this reversed. Obviously I would like to slightly increase my odds of ever drawing a sheep tag, but I wonder what the unintended consequences will be? There will obviously be a financial impact from losing the NR tags which could be passed on to the resident, which I would be fine with, but many wouldn’t be. Will it impact the participation of national groups on the conservation of sheep?
What’s everyone thoughts?
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,209
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,209 |
I don't know squat about NM sheep tag legalities, but know I have never been drawn for one. I will leave the decisions up to the residents whom "own" those animals to decide or at least lobby for.
I will say though, that there are ALWAYS unintended consequences to this type of thing. In 2010 (ish) when Montana residents pushed to drop outfitter allocation tags (to which I cautiously supported), I was apprehensive about what the downstream results would be. The initiative passed and IIRC it turned out that license revenue dropped so much that the state wanted to raise prices for all tags, to which residents further complained. I am sure all kinds of other downstream effects also happened but am not recalling any specifics.
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,918
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 18,918 |
Ya, I’m not sure if the consequences are worth the minimal gain in odds. It is nice to see a commission bucking the status quo though.
You back home?
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,209 |
Ya, got in late Sat night. Checked lynx sets yesterday and today am doing whatever I can to avoid the 500 eMails I got when I was out.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I don’t care one way or another. I feel bad for NRs, especially the DIY guys because I like to hunt other states too. I’ve made my living guiding hunters but I don’t agree with the outfitter pool. If they did a 15% NR allocation across the board residents would gain 1% and outfitters could book hunts based on reputation or price and not be so regulated. But we live in a welfare state so I guess it’s fitting. Residents cried about the antelope hunts and look where that got them.
"I used to be a tired hunting guide, now I'm just a re-tired hunting guide"
"No eternal reward will forgive us now, for wasting the dawn" JM
Jared
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I remember back in the 2000's, NM wildlife federation raised hell with the G&F commission that NM residents weren't getting their share of the elk tags (10 years I never drew as a resident). They finally straightened it out where residents can receive the majority of the elk tags which I approve of even though I now live out of state (and probably will never draw a NM elk tag).
I do like the idea of a 15% across the board NR allocation though. I mainly apply for Unit 34 and 36 because I worked in and know the Sacramento mountains well enough for a DIY hunt. If I applied somewhere else in NM, I might choose an outfitter that knows the country in their unit.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,864 |
I just wish they would do a 90/10 and be done, no guide welfare crap. If you draw you can hire a guide or go DIY. On the sheep, I agree with you, NM needs the national grass groups so it is a slippery slope trying to please everyone. They do need to follow the law though.
Good Shooting!
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,114 |
I just wish they would do a 90/10 and be done, no guide welfare crap. If you draw you can hire a guide or go DIY. On the sheep, I agree with you, NM needs the national grass groups so it is a slippery slope trying to please everyone. They do need to follow the law though. ^^^This^^^^ I think NM G&F and the national grass roots groups should come to an agreement on the auction/raffle tags sold each year for fundraising. I think one tag each for the rocky mountain and desert bighorn would be a good start. With the winner having his/her choice of unit and the season starting on Sept. 1st and ending Dec. 31st.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I to wish they’d go with a straight split. I’d be good with 85/15 or 90/10. Like you, most (not all) of the guides/outfitters I know would be good with a straight split as well. The reality is, if they drop the way they are doing the sheep hunt codes now, residents odds will only increase in theory. I worry that by doing that, the national organizations will have no interest in leveraging money for projects when 99% of their members won’t benefit, but like Hunting1 said, we’ll see how the interpretation of the law is read. Pretty sure if it stays as is, a few groups will push it in the courts like the waterways. You nailed it on the welfare state and resident hunters not looking at the big picture. This will be civil, when they open E-Plus, it’s going to be a cat fight. I don’t care one way or another. I feel bad for NRs, especially the DIY guys because I like to hunt other states too. I’ve made my living guiding hunters but I don’t agree with the outfitter pool. If they did a 15% NR allocation across the board residents would gain 1% and outfitters could book hunts based on reputation or price and not be so regulated. But we live in a welfare state so I guess it’s fitting. Residents cried about the antelope hunts and look where that got them.
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The rocky brought $310,000 this year and the desert brought $210,000 at the auction. Taos pueblo brought $200,000 and $285,000. I’ve always had a hard time finding the exact amount on the 2 raffle tags, 2019 brought in ~$130,000. I think NM G&F and the national grass roots groups should come to an agreement on the auction/raffle tags sold each year for fundraising. I think one tag each for the rocky mountain and desert bighorn would be a good start. With the winner having his/her choice of unit and the season starting on Sept. 1st and ending Dec. 31st.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Yeah, less than 1% is still less than 1%! I’m still hopeful though! I’m not sure the big groups will pull out, they still make a ton of money off of the auctions. And NM is lucky they are still selling record high numbers at auction( which probably isn’t worth what they’re selling for anyway) and many of the tags get thrown in the trash. Win win.
"I used to be a tired hunting guide, now I'm just a re-tired hunting guide"
"No eternal reward will forgive us now, for wasting the dawn" JM
Jared
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,918 |
That’s a good point, they would still have interest through the auction/raffle tags, didn’t think of it that way.
It amazes me how many of the auction tags go unused on all species. Like you say, win win.
I’m probably going to have to be satisfied with just watching them either way.
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2004
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If I steal that ladrone tag out from under you, you’ll be the first guy I call to recruit!! 😬
"I used to be a tired hunting guide, now I'm just a re-tired hunting guide"
"No eternal reward will forgive us now, for wasting the dawn" JM
Jared
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,209
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,209 |
People pay $2-300K for auction tags and don't use them, or even hunt on those tags? Am I understanding this conversation?
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Yes sir. More so on the super tag packages and stand alone deer and elk tags. Not so much with the sheep tags. The sheep guys come to hunt. It’s a big tax break. When you’re spending that much for a tax break, business obligations and billion dollar deals are more important than a stinky ol buck or bull.
"I used to be a tired hunting guide, now I'm just a re-tired hunting guide"
"No eternal reward will forgive us now, for wasting the dawn" JM
Jared
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,918
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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NM’, may know different, but my understanding is the buyer of the desert tag ate it this year?
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Whoa! I hadn’t heard that. I’m not tapped into the sheep deal as much as I wish. Just didn’t find a ram or ???
"I used to be a tired hunting guide, now I'm just a re-tired hunting guide"
"No eternal reward will forgive us now, for wasting the dawn" JM
Jared
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Not sure, was just told he ate it. I’ll try calling a guy that will know for sure and the story if true.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,176
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,176 |
We had some gov tags go un filled last year here as well. Guess if ya got that kinda scratch to spend, it probably doesn’t matter..
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Ain’t easy havin pals.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,209 |
Huh...eating a tag because you couldn't find the one is one thing, but I had read those posts as in the high bidders didn't even try to hunt on that tag. I see now what you're saying.
It drives me nuts when people dillute draw odds or rack up bids with no real intention to even try. It is their right to I guess but that doesn't make it any less frustrating. I see it a lot in Idaho and is why they started their second draw...to sell tags that others had drawn but didn't pay for or pick up by the deadline. Roughly 10% of very desirable deer, elk and antelope tags were not being picked up by those who drew them. Outside of unforseen emergencies, why even bother to apply if you're not going to try to hunt on that tag? All they're doing is dilluting draw odds.
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