Years ago I kept a log of every critter I shot, the date, the location, what rifle, and load data.

Have not done so in years.

I got a great deal on Norma Soft Point 150 gr. 308 ammo a couple years back.

That is all I've shot in the Sig Cross (bolt gun) at game.



I started gathering up the once fired Norma Brass this afternoon and was a bit surprised.

124 fired cases.

If one was to discount 24 for checking zero of my thermal setting, I'd say close to 100 have been fired at Hogs, coyotes and coons since 6/22.

I guess I'm slowing down in my old age.

ya!


GWB

Yes!!!!

Never. Wish I did, because only the extraordinary animals or shots stay with me. If I see a pic, I can recall the hunt and the shot, but there was often an awful lot killed between each pic taken.

The Aussie market is different than here in the US. Annual qualtities could be dozens or hundreds. We shot goats and pigs like Americans shoot dogs in summer. Aussie winter, meaning under 60 F, runs about Easter to October Labor day over there.

I knew hunters who took up to 2000 rounds away for a weeks hunt. Many take multiple rifles to wring them all out. I know I did, never under about 4-6 rifles per hunt. Changed the rifle everytime you went out. For luck, of course.

I have since my late teens, and not just the animals I took but those my companions got. Have found it an invaluable source of info--and my only regret was not including as many details as I do now back then.

The late Finn Aagaard started early on as well, and have seen his notes. They were eventually far more detailed as well--something we discussed on a few occasions before he passed away.

Nope, but I did keep track of B&C scores on the better stuff. Many claim they don't care what the animal scored, but I do. However, I can't tell you how many animals I've killed...

I use to years ago but now I only hunt for meat and have certain rifles I use for different game.

Somewhere between 55-70 deer, can look back several years on my ckin log, before 95 it was all paper tags, other critter hard to say other than a few hogs, small game who knows lol

Yep.

Pretty much the same with me too.

Yes for big game animals. Date, distance, caliber, bullet, range and bullet entrance and exit if it had an exit.

Geeduby - looks like you shoot a whole lot more critters than I do. Outstanding!

I do keep track, and it's interesting looking back, seeing what worked well, what wasn't so good. I need to update that list. I actually keep track of it, but have fallen behind.

Interesting subject, thank you.

Guy

That should be a short list.

No, I never have.

There is a whacko over on rimfire central that keeps track of the squirrels he's kilt. Squirrels? JFC......

I keep notes on load used and performance in my load book. Further I sometimes keep a yearly journal with more detailed notes on hunt, conditions, etc, even including fishing trips and their results. Haven’t kept up with my journal this past year but may start a new one this spring when we start fishing seriously.

My great uncle always got a calendar from the lumberyard or feed store every January and hung it in the kitchen. He hunted squirrels with dogs by day and coons with hounds by night. Hunted deer in the fall and liked to fish too. Every trip he wrote whatever he got down on the calendar in the kitchen. Kept it up for 60 years or more, no telling how many check marks he’d put on the calendar over the years.

I have kept a tally since I killed my first WT in 1978 with a 220 Swift. Moved the info to a spreadsheet some time back. I barely have 100 kills total, let alone that many in a couple of years.

Never been much for keeping track of anything and have never worn a watch. Apparently my wife isn't much better, she told me a few days ago it was our 38th anniversary, yesterday. You guys that have your stuff together and keep it together are amazing.

Never wrote such stuff down. Last few years take cell phone pix of the deer I kill with the gun used.

Nope. I used to log my handloading data, targets, etc., but that ended ~25 years ago.

Some keep track of number of shots fired out of each rifle.

When I was younger I started to keep track then gave up. Up until last year, I had the antlers from every deer and elk I’d shot. I cut most of them up and sold them to an antler buyer. I enjoy hunting and eating them more than storing the antlers.

Got a good friend who journals all of his hunting and fishing, and has since 1972. He has recorded every shot fired at game, whether hit or miss. Every fish caught whether crappie, trout, or carp. He does admit that on occasion, fishing will outpace his ability to record. He does his level best to describe that.

I've always thought it was a cool idea. After my divorce, while selling the house I found the beginnings of a number of journals.
Still think it's a cool idea. Don't see it happening, for me...

Yep. Started my log when I killed my first deer. It shows date, buck or doe, weight, distance shot , rifle:load, shot placement and reaction of animal. It only includes big game and where the hunt occurred. I can look back and read the entries and remember the hunts, otherwise no way could I keep up with them.

GreggH

I have never kept track of the numbers or the size or the score. Some were big and some not so big, but they all were just as important at the time and the hunts just as satisfying. I have green scored a few elk, caribou, moose and antelope myself just to satisfy my own curiosity. I never wrote any of it down and the numbers have since escaped me, because it just wasn't that important to me.

I've also measured the weight and inside spread of some of the nicer deer I've killed, but never wrote any of that down either.

Generally, the numbers and size of any of the animals are unimportant to me, and I could care less about seeing my name in a book.

The most important hunt is the next one...

No, but probably should have. Would be interesting to see how much meat has been put in the freezer.

I could give a crap about score.

But, they all fried up, right?

I never wrote anything down, but I can remember every deer I ever killed. Don't remember many dates, but remember the guns & ammo used.

My buddy who journals has a description, from when we were in high school, of me doubling on drake woodies in tight timber. He read that to me a few years back and I experienced a whole flood of memories. I could smell the truck of the guy we worked for who owned the place we hunted.

I recall a lot of things. Lotta water under that bridge...

Not as short as yours.

If you were bought for what you are worth and sold for what you thought you were worth, your buddy Biden could clear up the national debt…

I do that. A camera was too much trouble to keep with me

No journal of fish or game taken.
I have a few photos of various things, but
no written records.
At a guess I probably have around 2 dozen
deer photos, and maybe that many fishes
I've always been more interested in getting
whatever processed ASAP to preserve it
from any spoilage.
I have kept good records of what I've loaded
for each particular firearm, all the data and
how everything worked at the range, accuracy
etc.
The man that taught me to reload kept
meticulous records of all his doings, but
he shot a couple of different types of
competition as well as his hunting.
Keeping a written record has helped me weed
out the junk and keep the treasure.

Sometime this last year there was a man
rhat had felt necessary to give me a ration
of sheet over the fact that I don't have any
deer taxidermy done. He went on about
respecting the animals, blah blah blah
and this and that about some of the better
racks I've saved in a pile etc. etc.

They're meat to me along with some good
memories. As long as I have the memories
that's all that counts to me

Always thought I should keep a log of fish, game and mushrooms and any trips
involved. But sorry to say, I never got started. Wish I had. All were "trophy" regardless
of size or quantity.

Mule Deer has always impressed me with the data he has collected over the years.

Nope - never had the interest. Hang the antlers in the shack, talk about the year/hunt but no journal or anything.

Same here.

I suppose there may be some purpose to keeping count of the rounds fired through one’s rifles, but I never have. Pretty sure I’ll never wear one out. Back when I only had one or two, I didn’t have the time to shoot enough to do that, and now I have a bunch, so none of them gets used heavily. Anyway, record keeping is too much like a job to suit me. I had a job once, and don’t want another…….

Sometime this last year there was a man
rhat had felt necessary to give me a ration
of sheet over the fact that I don't have any
deer taxidermy done. He went on about
respecting the animals, blah blah blah
and this and that about some of the better
racks I've saved in a pile etc. etc.


Was he a taxidermist?😜

I just “love” guys that think they should be the ethics police for everyone else. Sorry fellers, but not only do I not mount my scrags, but given a chance I’ll ambush a turkey and shoot it with a rifle if that’s what I have, hunt with a crossbow, and even eat a bass now and then, so save your sermon.

I keep track of the rounds fired through most of my rifles, especially the favorites. My 300 is 1100 rds. down the bore this is its 3rd barrel , my .222 9000, my 223 7000, my old .22-250 2800 but this is its 3rd barrel. My Swift has 1300, and my .22-250 AI 3000. it is simple to keep a tally of rds fired. Right now the AI;s accuracy if falling off. I have a new barrel blank, looking for a smith to instale it.
As far as totals, I have kept a journal since I was 14 or 15. Ted Trueblood wrote a little essay about the fun of keeping a journal of outdoor activities. It is great. Memories come flooding back when I read about my trips from 60 years ago and a bit more. Things come back to life. As far as shooting game and fishing, those are entered into the journal. The only thing I can say, if you remember every deer you ever shot, you either have a photograhic memory or haven't shot many deer.
It has been a good life, and as I get older, those journals are wonderful.

This description from 99guy is exactly what I'd write. The experience is valuable to me. My only notes are related to load development. There are a couple notes about bullet performance in there possibly.

I have kept record of all the rounds I have loaded and the gun they were loaded for.
Also any trips to the range I recorded the accuracy. If I use the chrony I recorded that.

Nope

Only elk. I have a little bound book that I put reloading, bullet casting, etc stuff in, and it has a couple of pages in the middle for the elk that I've shot. I list the year, where I shot it, cow or bull and number of points, and rifle or arrow.


If my elk averaged 200 lbs of meat each, that would have been 3 1/2 tons of meat in my freezers.

I’ve lost track….

My best reference is my load data notebooks where I usually make a few notes.
But I’ve never made notes on my archery kills. Kinda’ wish I’d made more detailed notes for both.

no never have on animals or ammo shot either , heck i don`t even know how many knives , guns , or bows i own .

I have kept track of my elk kills as well as my partners since my first one in the early 60's. Our group has been small but very successful on elk. I no longer keep track of the deer because I have killed one almost every year since I started hunting. I posted our elk tally here once but received some very negative posts, so I will pass on that part. I have never killed a trophy bull, I just haven't felt the need. All of our elk were fair chase, on public land.

Tried to in my youth. Gave it up, too many to keep track of. I do have all the antlers and some exceptional shoulder mounts so I could count the bucks. Also have a box full of turkey beards and rattle snake rattles. For the does, landowners insisted on two to three for every buck shot. I could never guess the number of birds and small game.

One of the things I make a note on in my list of animals is the weight, whether field-dressed or butchered meat, depending on the circumstances. That's because have been living off wild game for decades, and helps to know if we have enough to last into next hunting season--including various kinds of game, since due to my wife writing game cookbooks. She prefers having a sufficient supply of various kinds of game for recipe development.

But I have also found my notes result in article ideas. One thing I heard (and read) for years was that boattail cup-and-core bullets tend to separate jacket from core more often than flat-based cup-and-cores. Eventually decided to analyze my collection of recovered bullets--and it turned out exactly the same number of boattail and flatbase C&Cs had separated....

No.

No idea of how many of anything I've killed over time.


There is a basket of horns in Dad's garage, from both of us.
It was his idea to keep them, I would have threw them out with the heads and hides.
Very few pictures.
I hunt for meat and the experience.


Where hunting is concerned, IMHO.
Now matters.
Tomorrow? Not much.
Yesterday is over.



Thinking it over.
I wish I had written stuff down.
Not that anyone else would or should GAS.
But it would be interesting to have.

86 elk, 79 pronghorn, 131 deer, 4 moose, 2 bighorns, 1 desert sheep, 1 dall sheep, 5 black bears, 1 muskox, 2 lions, 1 oryx, 1 mountain goat, several dozen exotics and hogs in Texas, bunch of javelina, trapped a bunch of furbearers.

I've slowed down quite a bit on deer and pronghorn. I get tags for both usually end up throwing away all the antlerless tags. Still shoot bucks and whitetail does once in a while. Pretty tough on elk, we have a pile of them.

I've helped more friends and family on hunts than what I've personally shot.

I am the patriarch of our deer/turkey camp. As such, I keep a log of everyone's kill, and I include not only the weapon, but the round and weather conditions as well. I keep all that in an Excel worksheet, and I can mine the data. The data goes back to 1991.

For these and everything else, I usually make an entry in my weblog and give the story of how it all happened. If Moose wants to see how he did on squirrels in 2018, he's got a pretty good idea from those entries. For all the interesting stuff, there's also a set of pics to go along with it. For deer, I usually take a shot of the kill when and how it was found as well as the usual meatpole photos. For turkey, I try to include a pic of the turkey on the scales and the legs and beard alongside a tape measure.

Texas Parks & Wildlife requires us to do a survey of the # of deer on the ranch each year a submit it, then they tell us how many deer we need to take off each year and keep a record of all Whitetail deer taken off the ranch, Age, Sex, Weight, Bucks Score no matter the size, we have records going back forever on Whitetails, Pigs, Predators, Exotics, we keep track of how many and what we kill, but are not required to by TP&W. Rio7

I keep basic records on the coues wt and elk my hunting friends and I have taken. Not so for javelina, coyotes or even coatis.

I keep meticulous records on mearns quail and tie it in with the rainfall we had that year. I refer to previous years as a reference to figure where to go on future mearns hunts.

I keep records for bass at my favorite lake, Roosevelt Lake, Az. Number released, water temp, weather, which part of the lake and what lure did well .

Speaking of squirrel records, while I never kept records, I remember one memorable time on Wall Creek Elk Refuge, near the Madison River in Mt, where I killed 180 ground squirrels in 3 hours with a 10-22. That's an average of one a minute.

I am willing to bet many who don't keep records on their hunting or fishing keep records on their vehicles maintenance. Just saying.....

Yes, you are the supreme hunter, just ask yourself. What are you hunting in this torpedo?

No journal.I have few pictures, and know I didn't get skunked elk hunting many times. I have kept all my hunting licenses and there is big pile. Many do not have carcass tags attached. It isn't so much the killing as it is about the hunt, which I remember more of. Probably the most rounds have been fired at prairie dogs. I probably have 4-500 pieces of brass for each rifle I own. Most of it is used in working up a load or sighting in or checking zero.

I have nine big game mounts hanging on my wall here. Quite few elk and deer antlers hanging on the barn, garage and more up in the rafters. But nothing written down anywhere. Except on another forum where I was asked to tell about some of my old hunts from the 60's and 70's

This thread reminded me of a job I have to do. I've got gobs of antler mounts from the past 20 years, but none of them have the dates recorded on mount. I need to at least get out a marker and put it on the back of the mounting board.

I used to keep very detailed notes on both fishing and hunting. It always helped me keep track of when the crappie were on the beds and what level the river needed to be at to get into what duck hole, when the bucks were really chasing, etc…. Anymore about the most I do is if a cartridge made a kill I place it back in the 50 or 100 round box neck up…. It’s always fun to get my old journals out and read them. Brings back a lot of great memories. I also used to keep track of what bullet was used and how well it performed…. But long since gave up on that. It ain’t what you hit them with but where you hit them…. Within reason. When my boys get old enough and if I’m lucky enough to have them share my love of the outdoors…. I’ll probably start back with the journals. I do keep track of all the stuff that gets killed out of my box blinds. I keep a pen or pencil in all of them. If a shot gets fired it gets recorded. Makes for great reading on days the deer aren’t moving!

I don’t but I wished I had on coyotes. The farm I lived on for 11 years was a coyote Mecca and I have no idea how many I killed and most were shot off the kitchen counter. The bay windows had no screens and one run right before I went to Alaska for the summer was 11 dogs in 14 days.

I've killed more stuff with factory ammo than with handloads.

geedubya, thanks, for starting a good tread. I used to keep all kinds of notes. I got past 60 somewhat and a few things are not that important as they once were.

I surely don't need to come on the Net and start making trouble like some others.

i did till i was 26yo or so. then i just figured it didn't matter. nowadays i shoot deer mostly with cast bullets and a variety of different calibers and rifles. its mostly about the meat.

Kept count when we were young and thought it mattered. Quit at some point when I was over 100 animals with a bow. Actually have a buck knife with mini notches in the handle to count em all. Somewhere it is I suppose.

I did rough score 2 deer just out of curiosity. Had one animal scored for an exotic records book at the time. It was a pistol nilgai. Got about nothing out of that feeling.

We just kind of realized it really doesn't matter to us and we are the only ones it matters for so to speak.

I could kind of tell you about the wifes creedmoor as we load an MTM box of 100 at a time. But even with plinking here and there at 1000 and beyond that isn't at 200 rounds yet.

Heck I have to talk hard to myself to make sure I record when I change vehicle parts, oil changes, fluid changes etc.... though I find myself more often putting bought dates on things these days. In case I stumble across the stuff later I know how old it is. So its not like the one azzhole bosss that put used but good on boxes of parts.

and I suspect the maintenance is much more important than the game.

BUT I will say this. Keeping data on dates and weather when you see game. When you catch fish etc... is much more important than what you caught or killed kind of thing. Working hard on building a data base for a new boss so he has info for the future on how fish move in the areas we guide in.

I kept a log years ago but eventually stopped. Back when I was mad at the fish I kept a log book of dates, weather conditions, Tides, and what we caught. Has been valuable data. I can pretty much tell you the date the shrimp will hatch in the upper end of the bays and where the Reds and Trout will be any time of the year. I have also kept a similar log of deer sightings, dates, weather, moon phase, times seen and other information. Been doing that since 1999 on the same ranch. It is interesting to go back every year and look at the data. Helps with rut timing and when I need to really hunt hard. The interesting thing is seeing how the herd numbers fluctuate depending on Anthrax, drought conditions, predators, and the influx of non-native species. My old boss always pounded into my head the saying "without data all you have is an opinion". His other saying was "a short pencil is better than a long memory". I was blessed to have some good mentors in my life!

i have a mini notched Buck 110 knife too. it is now put away and i use Melvin Worving belt knife.

I don't really keep track of deer, but i took 3 last year. The other stuff i keep tally of for the benefit of the rancher for predator control.

Last year I had 59 hogs, 3 coyotes, 13 coons, 1 fox, i also shot some skunks and porcupines, but i don't remember how many.

This year I'm at 7 hogs and 5 coons to date, but I've had less hunting time, so far, this year. Last year I had a lot of hunting time at the beginning of the year where I slayed a lot of hogs in the cold months. I also think we've started getting a handle on the hogs, so I expect them to be lower this year. Coyotes on the other hand... I need to hone my coyote skills. I have some catching up to do, but I think I'll come out OK.

I keep up when the turkey sightings and when they are grouped up with the gobblers, and flocks are breaking up and separate…. hen sightings going to nests.Most years all this is happening within few days of pass year. And people get all worked up over season opening late, breeding dates, they all henned up, and on and on….turkeys going to be doing there thing at around the same time each year and we going to be sitting under a tree opening day waiting for the sun to come up and yea….I heard one gobble this morning and all is fine.

Speaking of count geedubya. With roughly 100 animals does it make you wonder why you need any rifle other than that Sig Cross?

I started recording my kills (and my family members’ kills) in onX-Hunt. It’s only been a couple of years worth of data so far, but it’s really handy to be able to show someone on a topographical map where you shot a deer. It’s also useful for a situation where a wounded deer runs unexpectedly far to be able to mark where you shot and roughly where it was standing. And then to be able to mark the blood trail as you track it.

Even though I have hunted the same mountainside all my life, I still sometimes miscount the fingers as I crisscross the mountain. Being able to orient myself with the map is sometimes invaluable. “Okay, last year I scared up a big buck that was bedding down just the other side of this ridge.”

I know I have killed 19 deer in the last 4 years since they raised our limit to 5.

geedubyah;
Good afternoon my old friend, I see getting towards evening now down in your part of the world, I hope that this finds you and your fine family well.

Somehow I always found taking notes in school as a way to better lock things into my memory and that particular quirk remains with me today.

Our youngest is a high school teacher and she informed me that isn't super uncommon, that is to say that writing something down helps some people retain information.

When I asked her if typing will do the same for present and future generations, she said that it is being studied, so while the data isn't conclusive, it doesn't look like that's the case.

Anyways GW, all that's the long way of saying I wrote down the first two heads of big game about 5 years after the event, when I'd got back into hunting and have continued to do that since. Mostly it's been only big game that go in, but the odd interesting coyote shot seemed to make its way in there as well.

The data I record sounds somewhat similar to Mule Deer's in I'll record date, time, place, species, number of points, rough distance, bullet weight before and after if found, carcass weight, body condition and the animal's reaction to being shot.

At one point I thought I could remember each one without looking in the journal, but now when I go through it there's some I wouldn't have without reading about it somehow.

Also it's a nice reminder of hunts with my late Father too and perhaps it'll go to the kids as a bit of an explanation of who I was or have come to be.

All the best.

Dwayne

Like women, the only ones that matter are the first one, the last one, and the next one.




GR

I keep track of the number of double lung shots I have made on game—exactly one.

Spine, shoulder, liver, heart, head all hit in combination with a lung.

But just one broadside double lung shot.

Last week a liver/heart shot on a wild boar quartering away at 230 yards.

I don’t know how everyone else does it

BMT

I have many log books filled with data from years of every match rifle I have shot, but I have never kept track of the birds or animals I have killed.
Cat

One of the coolest things about way up north in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Upper Michigan is the amount of big racks that are hanging on a nail in some barn somewhere and they thought nothing of it. I knew 2 old brothers. They had so many huge racks. One, a 14 point buck was just amazing. He shot it in Boulder Junction , WIsconsin around 1940. He had an old Winchester, mod. 70 in .270 WIn. I asked if he ever wanted to sell it. He said " It ain't eatin no hay". I took it as a no.

Nope. Not at all

Not a log, but I get a ziploc bag and put the tag, recovered bullet if applicable, buglers, spent brass, and a 5x7 card with short details of the hunt to spur my memory when reminiscing. Kill site photo if I have one. Elk only.




P

Roughly, but never written down. I'm not a writer, and more interested in the meat and experience than anything else. I don't kill enough of anything to loose track, except caribou. Lost track there around 75. + - 100 now I'd guess.

Still, there are times I'd like to reference certain things. if doing it all over again, I probably would run a hunt diary.

I did have to list my moose kills a couple weeks ago to get an accurate count. The next day I added one I'd missed. 22.

I grew up when game meant food on the table. That's the way I lived, I remember the memorable ones, nobody else cares. When you die that is just that much more crap for your family to throw away. The past thirty years I take some pictures for hunting posts/ tutorials but even those get deleted soon. It's hard enough keeping tract of gear let alone memories, make new ones.

Killed a bunch of critters, if I ever cared about keeping count I've lost interest a while ago. Perhaps I should have kept a data set as it makes sense for referencing. The sharing of memories with family, friends and meeting fellow outdoorsmen has been my bragging board!

Not only didn’t keep a log, most of my kills I do not have pictures of. Since about 1980 I started carrying a camera , in a lot of cases those cheap cameras you sent the whole camera in for developing. Terrible quality of course. Unlike a lot of you midwestern and eastern whitetail hunters I have not killed a lot of game, but a big variety. Think I have 20 of the North American 29, including the grand slam of sheep and moose, been great sport. So many things and so like time and money was my problem.

Never kept track of it, myself. Sometimes I’d keep track of pheasants, chukar or ptarmigan, but just for that particular season and then I’d forget it.

I’ve hunted 4 continents, and will be on #5 next year. Hunted 8-10 countries and a half dozen states. Haven’t pulled anything but a general or unlimited tag since 2018, but that’s OK…

I’ve officially scored a grand total of one animal and that was only because it was the first of that species in the lower 48 to be entered. I’ve got 10-12 more that probably would make the book but have never cared enough to enter them, including a 54” and change Shiras moose that would (at least would have been) be top 5 in Montana. I am at about 16-18 of the North American 29 and there’s only a handful of upland bird species that I haven’t taken.

Just not my thing to actually keep track, but rock on to those who do.

No I lost count --- probably 45-50 years ago

What was the one you had scored?
I’ve never put a tape to any I’ve shot, don’t hunt places that grow anything that would likely make any book and generally just hunt for mature specimens of whatever I’m after. My keeping notes has more to do with the scientific aspects of conditions, bullet performance, reliving the story, etc.

Montana wolf, killed in the first season in 2009. I think he was the 14th one killed, or at least the 14th one checked in. SCI scored him as a silver, barely not making gold….whatever that means. B&C didn’t score wolves then but now since you can substitute them for Quebec caribou in relation to the NA 29, maybe they do? I haven’t really payed attention.

By default he was the state record for a time but was surpassed a few years later.

That’s cool man. I didn’t even know that there was a scoring system for wolves. I figured they were kinda like my buddy says about goats, the difference between an average one and a big one is about the distance across your fingernail. Still a great trophy just to get one.

It is just like bears or cats....skull length plus width.

Easy peasy.

A buddy asked ne a couple of years ago, how many deer iv shot. I said do know probly 70-100 or more. He's 19 years younger than me, said he was up to 47 deer. I never kept track, but have 1 elk, 1 mule deer buck, and 3 black bears. In the 1990s I started marking on the brass, shell. of the animal , date number of points. Iv always liked to shoot and hunt with different rifles. Over 20 I'd think from 44-77 black powder cartridge to 50 Beawulf.

Not hunting but I used to keep a fishing log.

I can remember the highlights over the years but count coyotes per year, 54 this year and most per day 16. A good year 75.
A nice gun I know the round count and have the brass.
I do know people who keep records like a statistician.