So far I don't really think so.

I recovered my 165 gr Partition from the near ham of a doe, shot at 40 yards with my .300 SAUM at a muzzle velocity of about 3000 fps.


All I found was the jacket- no core fore or aft and I couldn't find where some lead might have exited the ham.
Some of the nose jacket seems ripped off.
The bottom crimp is still all there but the base is out of its .308 round to .302 X .315.
There are no dents in the shaft of the jacket.

Since I was shooting at an injured doe that I'd just popped out of a creek, I had no compunction in shooting through the leafless branches of the two trees between us.
Do you think the bullet might have hit at least one branch, lost both its cores, and penetrated as jacket only the three or four inches of hind leg? (A branch deflection would ease my mind about why I hit the darn thing two feet from where I was aiming!)

It had to have hit something else. I hit a little buck with a Nosler 180 going about 3200 FPS. It hit a branch and tumbled. It made a hell of a mess going in but stabilized in the body. I got a foot of penetration but didn't recover the bullet from the surrounding countryside.

I can't imagine only getting a few inches of penetration and being that far off without clobbering something else first.

The way the mouth is curled in it looks like it hit something, came apart from the core, and went in sideways..I've never seen a pointy bullet curl inward...Of course I never find mine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'd really like to know how the rear core escaped from its crimp.

My guess is the rear core and metal, especially softer metals, act kind of like fluids at these high velocities and flow. I recently saw this happen with a _______ ( a bullet commonly considered inferior to the Partition) even though the core and jacket were found together and still connected. I was able to get them apart and it was evident that the core had moved forward and out of the jacket - almost as if it had been flowing.

Fortunately the Partition has a fine reputation and reliable following otherwise your example would be drawing plenty of negative comments. It wouldn't give a first time Partition user much confidence in the bullet, I'm sure, but it does demonstrate the fact that verey bullet can sometimes do something other than what we expect or want - and it isn't always easy to figure out why. I do think it is important to understand why bullets fail (without making excuses) before they be judged too harshly.

Pretty clean. Possibly "failure" at manufacture?

--Mike

The bullet hit something in flight, possibly even in the barrel (dirt, leaves, other crud). Once the bullet hits something, the gyroscopic forces flung (technical word) the base and nose out. The bullet was spinning a full revolution every 10 inches approximately. Think of how many G's that puts on a bullet's soft lead that is doing 3,000 fps. Multiply a tire blowing out at 65 mph by 100 and that is essentially what is happening to said bullet. ( I pulled that figure outta my ass, but I bet it is close <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). It doesn't take much to make a bullet wobble in flight, especially one that suddenly looses the front half or a large portion of the weight. The bullet got knocked off it's axis in flight and entered the deer base first and peeled the bullet back towards the nose. The base lead squirted out just like the nose lead often does. It isn't a failure. I have seen partitions do this several times. The ones I have recovered are usually going backwards in the meat. The petals....or lack of act more like a FMJ. I am definitely not a partition lover. I have seen them do WAY too many weird things for my taste. Your example is not uncommon. Flinch

Post that picture on the Nosler Reloading site. It lookjs to me like Nosler forget the lead in the ass end of that bullet.

You definitely hit something else before you hit the doe.

Many hunters don't believe how much a little twig can affect a bullet. I once shot a bull eland at 200 yards with a .338 Win. Magnum, using the 250 Partition loaded to 2700 fps. The eland was broadside, in the clear except for one little branch from a thornbush wandering up right through the sticking place at the rear of the shoulder. This branch wasn't as thick as my pinky, and I knew I couldn't hit it with a whole box of shells from 200 yards anyway, so I went ahead and shot.

It looked good, and the PH saw dust fly right in the perfect spot. The bull ran into the bush to the right, so we gave him a minute, then walked up. Lo and behold, he was still standing, 100 yards away, though with his head down. I shot him again through the ribs and he went right down.

The first bullet had hit the darn thorn branch and turned sideways. There was a hole showing the perfect silhouette of a 250 Partition in the hide, and the branch must have been very close to the bull, as we could also see little swirls in the hair where the thorns had been slapped by the bullet. So that big bullet had been turned sideways, probably in less than a foot, by a pencil-thin twig.

The sideways bullet only penetrated the near lung. The second, of course, went right on through, putting a big hole through both.

Stuff happens. In general I have found Partitions to be one of the more reliable big game bullets made--but also in general, they work better in the heavier weights, which leave a lot more shank to both push the mushroom and stabilize the bullet inside the animal. Any bullet can tumble and do other weird things if it hits something before striking the animal, or has so little shank after expansion that it's essentially round.

MD

MD-

I have had a very, very similar experience as noted under "bullet deflection" in Ask The Gunwriters - a twig, a bent-at-the-waist sideways-flying Partition and an elk.

George

Let's hope that I would have noticed a light bullet while at the loading bench.

I cant belive how many think its anything but partition failure. looks to me like jacket separation, (the jacket is now seperate from the cores). a bonded core bullet should never separate (see the hdy sst advertisement). If you hit a branch, you can usually go back and find the broken branch as it's normally in your line of sight.

I would not rule out jacket failure from the rifle. you may have too hot a load or too tight a twist for the bullet, or just a poorly bonded bullet. I've seen jackets fail on the 600 yard firing line and they usually dont go far, or in the right direction.

I personnaly use premium bullets and prefer a solid core. Remember, the cheapest portion of any hunt is the ammo, dont skimp on cheap bullets.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />In order-
How dare anyone disrespect the Partition, our tribal elder.
No, a bonded shouldn't separate, although you yourself mention the possibility of "a poorly bonded bullet".
The dang branches were on trees growing out of a narrow creek- I could stand down at their bases and gawk straight up or at level on the bank too far away to tell. Can't win for losing!
I've put too many hundreds of these through the rifle for it to be a systemic rifle problem. I think the ripped off portion of the nose jacket rules out simple core separation.
I think the world will agree that the Partition is a premium bullet, perhaps the primal premium pill for persnickety potshooters performing preeminently perfect performances.
I've got you beat- the Partition has two solid cores.
I have a buddy for whom the ammo expended just might tot up to more than his tag fees. No, he's not a poacher, just got that fever bad.
Send me a few boxes of Partitions and repeat "cheap bullets" when your wife sees the Visa bill.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I named the thread "Partition Failure" to bring in eyes (and I haven't even taken any marketing classes). I like the things. I figure that I get the best of both worlds- penetration and 'shrapnel'.

I shot twice at that doe (40 yds, thru branches)- one bullet went in a touch too far back, getting both lung and a bit of stomach, while the other was the pictured jacket halfway through the near ham. She didn't run until after the second shot; I don't know which one was the second shot- any guesses?

IMHO, this bullet was deflected and spun around in flight by some obstacle, lost/flung both cores, and only the "mantle" hit the animal.
Remember, with brute force no multicomponent bullet on earth will hold together, monolithic bullets at least try to (I managed to break solids on elephant and hippo skulls and even by shooting through relativly soft papyrus grass - one wounded buff I fired a coup de grace at, showed two entrance "holes", one in the neck and one in the skull, about 15 cm apart and one exit hole in the neck. My black gentlemen helpers, out of the bulls brains, removed only the flattened front part of a 400 gr 416" A-Square monolithic solid.
DEVA tests showed, that *every* bullets deflects by chance, even 500 gr. 458" Solids shot through pencil size wood dowels.
Regards
RD

A bonded bullet should NEVER separate from the core. Your bullet absolutely, positively had jacket separation. You may have hit a twig, but if the cores are bonded, they should not come apart. Your partition failed.

Uhm, what are you guys talking about? Partitions are not bonded. Never have been, likely never will be.

I know that, JonA.
Mousegun did use that confusing phrase, "you may have ... a poorly bonded bullet" when he knew I wrote of Partitions, but I doubt he thinks the P is bonded.
I wouldn't mind if Nosler bonded the rear, but PLEASE, never that nasty front!

having like 200000rpm is rough on any metal...bullets are designed to spin if they start tumbling it would easily rip out of the jacket.

I did not know that partitions are not bonded. makes sense, a bonded bullet would not have failed in such a manner. Just another reason to NOT use cheaply made bullets like partitions.

but without bending back the bottom crimp?

mac- that has kept me scratching my head since you posted the pics...how did the rear core come out without deforming the crimp? I keep coming back to the possibility that there wasn't one, as was alluded to earlier. Was there any evidence of lead in the rear cavity of the jacket?

mousegun- if you're using Hornady SST bullets with the belief that they're bonded, as stated in one of your posts, you may want to do a little more homework. Also, could you expound on your comment regarding a Partition's manufacture?

Dale

gee guys, I'm sorry for pointing out that your bullet sucks. Remember, if it failed once, It'll fail again.

The sst is not bonded, but the interbond is, my bad. Hornady claims in the 2003 catalog that their bonding process "...holds the core and jacket together no matter the bullet encounters. Quite simply , the core will never, ever, ever,ever,ever separate from the jacket!" (interbond).

But nobody here uses bonded bullets, so they must suck and the 2 piece non bonded partitions are great because their popular here, never mind that your bullet failed. According to the keyboard experts here, the lead became molten and poured out all over the woods or something. Who knows baybe it got struck by lightning, or Mt St Helens burped, or the earths gravitational pull failed. but thats ok, its a popular bullet.

According to the nosler website, regarding their new AccuBond bullet, is made with a process that "eliminates voids in the bullet core". Hmm, wonder if they had a problem here. By the way the accubond has a solid core.

The Swift A-frame is a good dual core bullet but I prefer the Scirocco. The trophy bonded bear claws are also great solid core bullets. SmithRite also makes a good product. For a few dollars more, you can have the best, and lets face it, the bonded bullets have awesome weight retention. The bonded bullets are the future of hunting bullets. Shot placement is everything, but after seeing the poor quality of the partitions, I will never use one, no matter what your excuses are for it's failure. Like i said, bonded bullets dont separate and have nearly full weight retention.

Any bullet that struck someting on it's way to the target is going to fail in one degree or another. Even if the bullet was in one piece (ie: a bonded bullet), chances are striking the animal sidways would have lead to poor bullet performance anyway.

I was just wondering mousegun, if you have ever shot game with Partition bullets? I have taken game with Partitions and feel that though they are not perfect, they perform good. Place a Partition where it belongs in game and they kill. The only time I beleive they might be prone to fail is at real high velocity, then any lead core bullet, even a bonded core, has a high chance of failing then. Of course, I think the impact velocity would have to be over 3400fps.

I shot a Buffalo (Bison) once with a 308 Winchester with a 180gr Partition. The shot was through the neck at real close range. The neck of a big bull bison (this one was over 2000lbs) is tougher to shoot through than the shoulders of an elk. There is just more muscle and bone. The bullet stopped under the hide and the bull polexed right now. Nosler could use that expanded bullet for an add promoting Partitions. It looked picture perfect, even after shooting through thick hide, skin dense muscle, heavy spine and more dense muscle. I beleive it weighed just over 150 grs afterwards.

I shot 130gr .270 cal Partitons through both shoulders of heavy Nebraska Whitetails and they exited everytime, even after breaking both shoulders (rare to break both shoulders but I have done it)

I have seen them take dozens of animals and many others have seen them take hundreds of animals. I think Partiton failer is not very common, and only if impact velocity was really up there OR, IF, the bullet strikes an object on it's way to the animal. Maybe the bonded bullet might have done a better job, maybe not, it is mere speculation to come to any prediction. Either way, a deflected bullet is not so good.

CM

I have shot probably 500 of them at targets and know for certain that the Partiton has to be one of the most accurate hunting bullets made.

I hate to break it to anyone who thinks the "Nirvana" of bullets might be found in making them bonded but it ain't so. Bonded bullets aren't necessarily nor always better than some of the others whether or not those others happen to be popular here or elsewhere. And bullet weight ain't everything either, nor is terminal bullet shape but it must not be overlooked. The shape of the bullet as it expands and after it has expanded has a lot to do with how and how well it works. Bonding a bullet does help retain the original mass and thank goodness for that because bonded bullets often expand to a diameter which creates terrific drag and consequently need a lot of mass to get adequate penetration. That, of course mean more destruction in its path but limits the length of the path. While this is essentially what simple cup and core bullets have been doing for years, bonding has made the principle more reliable.

A large expansion "parachute" is not always a desirable feature especially when penetration is one of the higher priorities. Take a look at what has made the Barnes X such a success for those numbered among its fans. It doesn't create a large expansion, doesn't destroy an initial voluminous path; it just penetrates like crazy leaving a moderate path of destruction long and deep. Gee, I wonder if the guys who came up with the X idea ever studied now the Partition worked? There are some strong similarities in terminal performance. The Partition does maintain a slimmer profile for penetrating deep by often losing some weight off the front while doing massive damage initially.

I am not a great fan of the Partition though it is the projectile I like in some rifles and calibers, nor have I yet developed a fondness for bonded bullets. One needs only to look at the record established by the bullet against which all others are judged, the bullet which has probably the single largest place in the record books in terms of accomplishment and still the one which many turn to when there is any question about how to reliably make the shot count on a high value hunt: Nosler Partition.

You can deny a lot of things if you want -(sticking with "reindeer can't really fly" is safe and smart) but don't try to deny that the Partition isn't any good. But shoot whatever you like!

I really struck a nerve here. I just pointed out that the partition actually failed. You posted the pics!!! Not me!! the thread reads Partition failure, not my words! Partition style bullets have weak frontal areas. as was stated by a chap who shot a buff in the bush, the a-frame split and deflected, but it did hold togther. I also believe the p's have a problem with "voids in the bullet core", EXPLAINING why BOTH cores had NO lead. this forum is nothing but a sounding board for whats popular. you can criticize premium trophy bonded bullets all day long. I dont care. The minute someone criticizes the "holy grail" around here, all hell breaks lose. you people are going through life with blinders, afraid to admit that there might be something better, wether it be bullets, guns, scopes, binos, trucks or boots. Just keep repeating the same thing, over and over and over.

I concede, bonded bullets suck and the partitions, (see pics above), are the only way to go. Bullet makers like Speer, Swift, Hornady, and yes, even Nosler are all going with bonded bullets, maybe they should hang out here and learn from the experts. Most PH's prefer them. I've used just about every bullet I can think of, and they all kill, but there is a difference in terminal performance. I know, you killed 27 elk, 54 witetail, 14 mulies, 97 coyotes, 15 caribou, 60 bull moose and one cow with partitions and in your minds there the best. Thanks for setting the world strait on the bullet issue. I'm sure the issue will be put to rest now and wont have to be brought up again for a long time.

mousegun--

Sorry to put it so bluntly, but your ignorance is astounding. You appear to be one of those who refuse to use a certain bullet (or whatever) because you somehow know your "special" brand is better. Just how you know this without some experience is something of a mystery.

First, as has been stated by others already here, no bullet will act as designed if it hits something else before the animal--as this bullet obviously did.

Second, one of the "great" bonded bullets you mention, the Swift A-Frame, does NOT have the rear core bonded to the jacket. Only the front core is bonded--and the partition is not only copper (not as strong as the gilding metal in a Nosler Partition) but generally the partition of an A-Frame isn't as thick as that of the same diameter/weight Nosler.

If an A-Frame meets enough resistance, the rear core (unbonded, remember?) can actually punch through the partition--in which case the whole front half of the bullet can break loose. I know this because I have seen it happen.

To me, bonding the front half of a bullet but not the rear is bass-ackwards.

Anything can happen to a bullet if it meets enough resistance, but I have seen upwards of 100 Nosler Partitions fired into all size game animals from 100 pounds up to 2000+, without a failure of any sort. I know they can happen, but they can happen with any bullet.

Bonded bullets can and do separate. In fact, they generally do, at least partially, because in almost every one I've recovered, at least some of the core was wiped from the front of the jacket. I've used a pile of them, from A-Frames to Scirrocos to Accubonds to Ultra Core-Lokts to Trophy Bonded Bear Claws.

Retained weight is OK, but far from the only criterion to judge a bullet. If you want penetration, the way to get it is with a bullet that retains a long shank, even after hitting something hard. This means the Barnes X, Fail Safe, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (which combines the solid shank of the X with a little bonded core in the front end only--I doubt the front even needs to be bonded) and North Fork (kind of a cross between the Barnes Triple Shock and Trophy Bonded).

What might be called "standard" bonded bullets, made with just a one-piece jacket bonded to a long core, are numerous: Scirocco, Kodiak, Interbond, Accubond, Ultra Core-Lokt, Norma Oryx, Bitterroot Bonded Core. They all tend to retain a good percentage of weight, but none of them will penetrate as deeply as an X, Fail Safe, or Trophy Bonded of the same diameter and weight, because they open wider. For that matter, none will consistently penetrate as deeply as a Nosler Partition of the same weight and diameter.

Which one you choose all depends on penetration versus expansion. Price to a certain extent has nothing to do with it. I know because I've shot most of these into game, and all of them into test media.

MD

mousegun, you're ignorance is pretty evident.

Chuck

MD- I think this answers the mystery:

mousegun- just 'cuz a company makes a claim doesn't mean it's so. Barnes puts a little brochure in their TSX boxes that states "And they won't come apart-ever!" From the pictures Spike posted from a cow hunt earlier this year the TSX obviously CAN come apart. Won't keep me from using them for certain applications though. Just like I'll keep using the Partition at times. And even "lowly" cup-and-core bullets! EVERY bullet will fail at some point in its history. Good luck on your quest to find one that won't! BTW, I'm still waiting for your evidence that Partitions are cheaply made.

Dale

stop picking on me guys, I already conceded.; the above pics are DIFINITIVE proof that partitions are, in fact, far superior than any other bullet on the market. I must've been drunk to think anything else is, dare i say, better.

I plan to auction off all my premium hunting bullets on e-bay, now i know they will NOT work on any game, at least not as well as the partitions, (see above pics).

By the way, I did note the a-frame is not my first choice, I just used that as an example from another poster.

Now you can all chime in and ...Blah blah blah...

IF the bullet hit something on its way to the deer, then the bullet didn't fail, the shooter did. I use TSX's, Partitions, and the dreaded Hornady Interlocks. For their intended purpose, they all do the job. TSX's are a tad more accurate in my rifles. Partitions do just fine, but they are more frangible. I have even used Sierras and the old solid base Noslers. They have all killed game. Killed means dead. As someone else so aptly put it, there is only one kind of dead.

And a bullet that kills a deer dead did not fail. It was meant to kill a deer and it killed a deer. That is success, not failure.
Now suck in your lower lip before a bird poops on it and go hunting with a BB gun. Those round copper bullets work great. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You need to get out more. The Nosler Partition didn't make its reputation as the premium game bullet to which all others are compared on this forum. It already had it before this forum existed, before Al Gore invented the internet and even before the invention of the Commodore 64.

Really, how long have you been hunting?

Me thinks somebodies match season is over and they decided to TROLL a little!!

Mike

Reading original post, the shooter recovered the bullet; difficult to do from a live critter! If this one didn't put it down, the next one did.

IMHO the term "bullet failure" should only be applied when everything is done right, the bullet goes in the right spot at a reasonable velocity without hitting intervening dirt, wood, or other critters, but the targetted critter (meat) fails to fall over and die within a short time.

While "struck b7y lightning" kills do happen, the more bullet you put to meat, the more strange, upsetting, weird stuff you will see.

The rules are, take the best shot you can from as close as you can safely get. In this case, an already wounded animal, some leeway is permitted and macrabbit did the right thing, he put the deer down.

Too often equipment is blamed for deficiencies in the shot; the scots bunny knew he was taking a marginal shot, so the fact that the bullet didn't behave normally is no surprise.

Just a couple more points for our friend mousegun:

Nosler can make Partitions more cheaply than many other companies can make their premium bullets because they've been at it longer and sell a lot more bullets. They've perfected the machinery (probably paid for, and not owned by some bank) to make bullets quickly--and any businessman knows that volume tends to lower costs.

Two, bonding is not some new, cutting-edge process. Bill Steigers got the ball rolling in the 1960's with the Bitterroot Bonded Core. So bonding is not some sudden apparition, pointing way for all the lowly and ignorant users of Nosler Partitions and Barnes X's.

MD

MD

I have now used Nosler Partition bullets for 37 yrs. and have yet to see a problem, they are now better than they ever were. I also use Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frame and Kodiak bullets and think that they are just fine, but, NPs are my first choice. I have seen somewhere close to 200 big game kills and most of those were with NPs, this includes a number of large Grizzlies.

As to Smithrite Bullets, I know Russ Smith and have known him for some 15 yrs; I was just talking to him the day before yesterday when he kindly asked my opinion on the design features of some new bullets he is going to make. I will be discussing this with him, relative to North American DGR bullets, after the New Year. Mousegun, tell us, exactly how many and what Partitions have you ever seen fail?

macrabbit,

Did you recover both bullets?

No, the lung/gutter was a pass-thru. No way to know if it hit a branch.

This pic shows a different but similar tree scene. Imagine a doe standing on the bank 15 yds behind that screen.

Have you seen similar performance when the Partition strikes hard objects such as the knuckle bone on the point of the shoulder? Also, if the bullet struck a branch mid flight and caused the complete failure witnessed in your pictures, it would seem unlikely that the bullet would actually strike the deer.

I have missed two bucks as fairly short ranges in the lsat two years hitting limbs and strangely enough they were both with Nosler partiotions, 125 gr in my 260 thisyear and a 165 in 3006 last year. I can;t imagine that is nosler;s fault. I would really like to see what the Nosler guys have to say. You should post the pic on www.noslerreloading.com and see what they say.

OK, I've posted on the Nosler site.

Mouse falls silent...

Good riddence. I am not one to jump on the bandwagon just because something is popular. I believe that just because something is popular, doesn't necessarily make it the best. But when you have tens-of-thousands of discerning hunters who take as much care in picking their equipment as those of us on here, you can be pretty sure it has something going for it. And when something becomes the icon against which all others in its class are judged, and has the proven, time-tested reputation that the Nosler Partition does, you can be pretty sure you can rely on it. It'll get the job done, reliably. Even if something can do it better, but it'll never be a bad choice. That's how I feel about the M1911, and that's how I feel about the Nosler Partition.

If the Accubonds give me reason, I would have no qualms going with a 175 gr Partition in my 7mm Rem Mag. That's saying alot from me because I have pretty unrealistic expectations from my bullets. I basically demand perfection. In fact it was me who started the afermentioned threat about brush deflection in "Ask the Gunwriters." Because yes, I foolishly expected my bullet to make it through some three feet of brush.

please excuse my hiatus; I was accuracy testind my new partitions. couldent wait to test them on deer, so I was out gettitn one, (around here they call it hunting, not surfing).

But before I get into the partitions anylonger, I would like to address one more thing. I thought this place was where we got together like civil adults to discuss hunting. It seems that if someone has a differing opinion, you all seem to systematicly gang up and pummel them with PERSONAL attacks.

It seems rather reminiscent of the old Clinton war room. "if you cant beat em, destroy their character". Are my feelings hurt, no way. I could care less about any of you, but I do think you all set a poor example for the rest of the hunting community.

I also would like to note that I cant believe someone as revered and respected as an actual GUNWRITER would stoop to the level of making personal attacks. A person whom is thought of being, somehow, above all that. A person of whom i had looked up to and may have even reached the level of an actuall FAN. But not now mister mule deer, you have stooped down to the level of persons equal to the Michael Moors of this world.

I have a lot of friends in the shooting community who regard gun writers as nothing more than common WHORES, but I always defended them as a man with a real job to to. They have told me about how gunwriters will write anything for a buck, write it like your selling it! but I always held gunwriters in high esteem, considered them as people with CLASS. I cant believe a real life gun writer would attack someones character.

I dont care what you keyboard experts think, you cant win an arguement, so you trash-talk. gang up like wolves on a fawn. Jujing by the high number pf posts that most of you have, it's amazing any of you have ever found the time to go hunting.

now go ahead with the scathing commentary

Not jumping on the bandwagon just because something is popular?

That is exactly what you are doing with the mousegun bashing.

So tell me RemFan, do you still beat your wife?

Main Entry: trash talk
Function: noun
: disparaging, taunting, or boastful comments especially between opponents trying to intimidate each other

mousegun- to refrain from making this a personal attack I will let you decide if that passage pertains to your contributions to this thread. And for the third time I will ask you to back up your claims with some empirical evidence. Factual observations would help your cause much more than the sarcasm you've been oozing.

FYI, I'm not a Partition slut as I only use them in one rifle but the animals I've shot have died. With one shot. And I haven't recovered any so I don't know what they looked like. I've shot many more animals with Sierra, Hornady, and Barnes bullets than Noslers. No particular reason, just happened to be what I was shooting at the time. I don't think a bullet has to retain 100% of its weight to be a success. The coreless jackets of cup-and-core bullets that I've recovered from dead animals attest to that. The one bullet "failure" I have experienced, meaning the animal wouldn't have died without another shot, was an early model Barnes X. The petals barely opened and didn't do any damage. Every other animal I've shot with an X has expired right quick.

Every make and model of bullet has a certain percentage of "failure" associated with it. Is the Partition's rate any higher than others? I doubt it. A product doesn't keep its market share for as long as the Partition has if it rates [bleep]. There may be better mouse traps out there. But "better" is subjective based on our pre-conceived notions of how the bullet is supposed to behave and what the pictures show it's supposed to look like. To condemn a known quantity without backing up those claims with first-hand experience is asinine. And will get you jumped like a wolf pack on a fawn. Please enlighten us uncivil keyboard jockeys.

Dale

Mousegun--

Maybe I mised something here. I can't see where I impugned your character. I just said you were ignorant, which isn't a part of a person's character, but something they can fix--by learning.

I was a little blunt about it, but then all of your posts here have been blunt, in a way that a friend of mine calls "aggressively ignorant." Now maybe that is a character flaw. I don't know, since I don't know you.

But when you jump in and start slamming a product that's been widely respected for over half a century, meanwhile displaying your ignorance of said product, then you might just expect a few blunt responses.

Instead, if you'd written, for instance, that you had used Nosler Partitions quite a bit, and some had failed in one way or another, and provided evidence, then the folks here might have responded differently. Instead you called them cheap, and implied that you never used such cheap stuff. This left you wide open to people who know better.

If you'd care to back off and begin again in a more reasonable and prudent manner, then we'd like to welcome you to the fire. But don't come in throwing chairs, or you're likely to get one thrown back at you.

MD

MD,

I think we can apply the infamous "law of diminishing returns" in this situation.

I have sat back and read this thread, mostly LMAO at our new "bud" mousegun.

mousegun, I think you may be a tad off base here fella. In simple terms, you are fighting a battle with an empty weapon. In simpler terms, MD always presents his views and opinions that are based on many experiences and data collected. You on the other hand saw a picture and drew a conclusion. One event is not even statistcally valid to draw a conclusion from.

Here is some food for thought....A Six Sigma level of quality is considered the highest level of quality achievable. Very few products ever can attain this level. As a definition, Six Sigma equals six failures out of 1 million.

While I am not saying that MD has provided that level of data, he certainly has provided more of a valid case for the Nosler Partition, than some unknown poster with no posting history, who sees a picture and says, hey, these things are junk. BTW, by the definition of Six Sigma, one failure is allowed.

Here is some advice.............Come back and update us with some solid data and/or experiences, or expect some more abuse.

Tony

I don't even have a wife, and for your information, I don't even beat my dog.

Mousegun--differing opinions, I don't mind. Being an arrogant smartass, I do.

You people have the GALL to call me ignorant. I am the one who conceded, remember? For all you writers in montana, that means I admit defeat! That was, like, two days ago. But you selfrightous, arrogant, hypocrites decided to keep on bashing. Its like gut shooting a deer, and then hitting em in the ass just for good measure.

I even went as far to BUY some partitions, load and get some 200yd zeros with them, and then go shoot a deer with one. But even that isnt good enough for you contemptous pigs!

You guys had me down and out and decided to just keep on kicking. Is this the way you keep nay-sayers out of your inner-circle?

I listed a bunch of really good bullets, (which are now up for auction), and you all jumped in and said they are no good, only partitions. So who's ignorant?

I did not call you anything, but, I asked you a simple question which, in your umbrage, you neglected to reply to.

As far as arrogance is concerned, your comments about other participants on this thread and your nasty, unwarranted sneers at Mule Deer, a very highly respected, professional gunwriter, bespeak an attitude that will very likely be seriously adjusted by someone, when you are old enough to enter a tavern. It reminds me of a comment I heard in a bar in Eureka, MT. nearly 40 yrs. ago when a bartender told a young "tough guy" that, " son, if you're going to be stupid, you better be f_____g tough", !!!!!

Do they have many computers in bars?

I do believe that this thread should go to that great bit bucket in the sky............

And the moon isn't even full, WTF !!!

Later,

Tony

This is making it difficult for me to choose a hunting bullet. Who's opinion should be relied on?
On one hand I have testimony from one highly regarded writer, and quite a few board members whos opinions I value, plus comments from another source who has written and edited a number of reloading manuals, loaded and fired untold thousands or rounds, been a highly placed excutive with a major manufacture and states that he has never, ever, seen a partition fail. Then there is my own limited experience
On the other hand, I have to weigh the thoughts of a short term member with a small number of posts, who seems to be a bit reactive.
This is gonna be tough, but I have some time to decide <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So if mousegun had a large number of posts and was a long term member, then the Nosler Partition would suck!

Maybe so. If anyone can make posts like that while providing so little evidence, and not get laughed out of here long enough to run up a good post number, I might have to pay attention to his ideas.
But, naaa I don't think so <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yo Tracks!

Your ass bone is connected to my ........... dick bone!

One post and I get the impression you don't like me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Hang around, you can really learn to hate me with a little time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Are you MG's twin brother or are you just a s___tdisturber? In any case, why not tell us of the Nosler PTs. that YOU have seen fail?????

obmuter
"Your ass bone is connected to my ........... dick bone! "

Something tells me you really like that sort of thing and likely have practice... likely as an ingler (that is correctly spelled, look it one up in your OED)
art

I was just trying to have a little fun with TRACKS 'cause I like his attitude.

YOU I don't like, so STFU.

BTW, one of them I have seen fail has a picture at the top of the thread genius!

hey tracks, is that short for obmuters pecker tracks on your ass.

Thankyou for the compliment, I am human enough to enjoy being refered to as a "genius", even by you whose opinion of me is about as substantial as a popcorn fart in a gale.

Both you and your pal, MG, come onto this forum and start badmouthing some of the most highly respected folks here and then complain when you are told about your stupid attitude.....what's the problem, girls, PMS getting to you????

I don't recall complaining yet ass jokey.

Sitka Deer, your momma says hi!

Just did some checking- you two have a combined total of 21 posts and seventeen are on this subject. All of your buddys posts are just on this one. That comes out about four under your ages and five or six points higher than you collective IQs

Join our side Tracks, You RULE!!

Guess I could, but I kinda want to stay around here for a while, and besides I've allready raised my kids
Don't need to straighten out any more.

All I found was the jacket- no core fore or aft and I couldn't find where some lead might have exited the ham.
The bottom crimp is still all there but the base is out of its .308 round to .302 X .315.
There are no dents in the shaft of the jacket.

I'd really like to know how the rear core escaped from its crimp.

It wouldn't give a first time Partition user much confidence in the bullet, I'm sure, but it does demonstrate the fact that verey bullet can sometimes do something other than what we expect or want - and it isn't always easy to figure out why. I do think it is important to understand why bullets fail (without making excuses) before they be judged too harshly

Pretty clean. Possibly "failure" at manufacture

I have seen partitions do this several times. The ones I have recovered are usually going backwards in the meat. The petals....or lack of act more like a FMJ. I am definitely not a partition lover. I have seen them do WAY too many weird things for my taste. Your example is not uncommon. Flinch

It lookjs to me like Nosler forget the lead in the ass end of that bullet.

but also in general, they work better in the heavier weights, which leave a lot more shank to both push the mushroom and stabilize the bullet inside the animal.

but without bending back the bottom crimp?

mac- that has kept me scratching my head since you posted the pics...how did the rear core come out without deforming the crimp? I keep coming back to the possibility that there wasn't one, as was alluded to earlier. Was there any evidence of lead in the rear cavity of the jacket?

Every make and model of bullet has a certain percentage of "failure" associated with it.

Every make and model of bullet has a certain percentage of "failure" associated with it.

one failure is allowed.

you jerks dont like my words, eat your own!

Looks like there are some kids around here who need to pull their pants up to their waist, turn their hats around forward and turn down the volume on Snoop Dog.

Partitions enjoy a well deserved reputation for good expansion, deep penetration and reliable performance on all manner of big game. I have no doubts that some have failed in the past and will in the future. For those that do not have confidence in them for any reason, there are plenty of suitable alternatives. I don't reckon there's much call for the punkish responses being spewed forth.

Tell me, what game have you shot with, for example, Smithrite bullets, and how do they perform????? I have NO problem with your opinions or your bullet choices, but, calling people names here ain't gonna win you many supporters and NO friends.....except maybe that microcephalic infant who cannot even spell his own pitiful attempts at insults.

Hey paul, or do you prefer Pops? anyhoo, according to the people with the most posts, and least amount of trigger time, there ARE no alternatives to partitoins! better get your bi-focals checked.

obmuter
That is your best repartee? Classy, real classy.
art

Looks like there are some kids around here who need to pull their pants up to their waist, turn their hats around forward and turn down the volume on Snoop Dog.

Sorry if that hit home with you Mousegun. You weren't my intended target.

You can call me Pops if you wish. The kids I work with (military) call me Pops, and gramps as well as some other terms of endearment (normally from behind during our fitness run).

Mousegun, I don't think anyone here would bust your chops if you just made your case without the confrontational overtones. I enjoy hearing varying opinions. If everone thought the way I do this place would be boring. It doesn't matter if it's a persons first or ten thousandth post, If it's got substance, it's got value. I am a Partition fan because I have had great results with them. They are not the Lord of all bullets. I read with great interest when folks have undesireable results with them.

In all sincerety, I think we all visit these forums for essentially the same reasons. Information, fellowship and entertainment. While your posts certainly do justice to the latter, I think we would all benefit from your contributions if you catered a little more to the other areas. Some of the things you say make good sense to me. Stick around a while, post often, lighten up and enjoy yourself. This forum is known for it's friendly atmosphere. If you want a good forum for pissing matches try accurate reloading. Some of those guys hold nothing back in treating each other like crap.

Well I have been dragged into these internet wars before and it usually isn't to productive. It's way to easy to read one another wrong in the absence of non verbal cues. People who would probably be friends in person can jump to assumptions and spin off in the wrong direction. Been there recently in fact.

So back to partitions: I have had good luck on game with them in 60 grain .224, 125 grain6.5/ 150 grain ,308/ 225 grain 358 and 300 grain 458.

In comparative testing on wet newsprint I have noticed that they at times tumble and the back is deformed but the lead will not squirt out easily and I don't understand the result shown in the picture. I wondered if the long shank after expansion requires more spin to keep stable in dense targets. My 16 Twist .358 Norma magnum has 250 grain partitions shooting well on targets but tumbling in catalogues much of the time.

They aren't cheap and seem pretty foolproof. I respect the research of Bob Hagel and he was a real fan of the partition.

That was a very astute observation and very well stated, I'm done with this and thank you for your welcome and wise intervention. I am also a huge fan of Bob Hagel, but, I find that MD is getting there and he is a genuinely courteous guy, as well.

Mousegun, sorry, I do not buy this. I would bet my house that you don't have any evidence of partitions doing that several times. There are other good bullets, but I have about 80 personal big game kills with partitions, and having seen another 20 or so, I can't imagine this result happening, much less being common.

I think this is all crapola.

I have no problem "eating" anything I've said nor for that matter any reason to do so. I do have problems with taking words out of context as you have. In my case what you left out of the paragraph you borrowed the quote from wasn't very significant but it does change the meaning I intended to some degree. What I wrote was:



I didn't realize how prophetic that statement would be. I do think the last line is one you might want to review in light of the fact that context seems to elude your evaluation of what you read and observe. Using that logic one might believe a Sciorroco "failed" after finding the splattered evidence scattered in the vicinity of the ram. (Of course it might help to understand that I am thinking of the steel silhouette ram used in the competitive sport, not hunting of live animals.)

Context is important. I don't think you would find many people here or elsewhere who would fault your favorite bullet, whatever it happens to be, just because you weren't able to hit your target with it even if the range was only 50 yards - and you happened to be shooting through tall grass or brush. And is not missing possibly the greatest form of bullet failure?

Contrary to what you might want to believe, not all defenders of this bullet are great fans of it. I'm not. I do know it has been a very useful and reliable bullet for many people, however. I just don't choose to use it much. You can disparage it all you want - as long as you provide evidence. That evidence should be statistically relevent also, not chosen for specifics. In other words it makes no sense to look only at the failures without also considering the successes or vice versa. Anything can fail - in many different ways. Everything we use has a failure rate.

The Partition is one of the factors in hunting that can be relied on to keep the failure rate lower - there is statistical evidence for that.

Well, that was fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You can go to www.gun-tests.com under "Tools and Techniques" and "Ammunition" to read about partition's low retention weight and poor performance compared to other bullets.

Partitions have a reputation of coming apart after hitting heavy bone at fast speeds- close shots and the faster moving calibers.

Well, I should probably just keep my mouth shut, but after reading all that banter [some of it a bit hostile], I'll add my experience with Partitions. The one pictured is an unusual failure, IMHO. How the rear core got ejected without opening the crimp, I cannot say, but if the bullet was tumbling at high RPMs, then perhaps that soft lead could do that. I have a couple of samples of Partitions that have slid forward against the Partition so hard on impact, that they "bulged " the jacket quite a bit just back of the partition. I have shot exactly 64 head of game with Partitions. The lion's share have been Moose and Elk. I have recovered 14 of those [about 22%] The rest have exited the animal. My confidence in the Partition over 40+ years of use is quite high. They are not perfect bullets, but for me, They have NEVER failed to get the job done reliably, even when I have asked them to do things bullets probably should not be depended on to do. [ Texas heart shot on an Elk, Front shoulder shot on a large Bull Moose on a quartering-toward presentation] I have pictures of the recovered bullets. None have the rear core missing, but several have the front gone. I have used bonded bullets also, including the Bitterroots mentioned by another poster. They were good expanders, but the large frontal area they made often halted penetration too quickly on angled shots. The Scirocco does not hold up well at high velocity IF it has to break any larger bone. I turned one completely inside out in a moose with the 30-06. On broadside shots, it has been superb, though. Trouble is, you cannot count on broadside shots being presented. Any bullet will become suspect in it's performance if it contacts something before it hits the animal. I had just such an experience with a smallish Bull Moose and the 180 partition out of the 308 Norma Mag. The bullet, aimed for the heart-lung area, struck a frozen twig about �" in diameter 20' in front of the moose. The bullet struck the moose in the neck [2' from point of aim] and fortunately hit the spinal column and exited out the top of his neck. Did not recover it, obviously, but it may have been interesting to see. The entrance wound was oblong, so obviously the bullet was unstable. I shot at a large muley buck with a Bitterroot many years ago through a similar bunch of brush as was shown on this thread. The bullet never even reached him! Fortunately, he decided to hang around while I picked a spot through the mess and dispatched him with another shot. I believe the Partition displayed here struck something before it hit the deer. The dramatic loss of both cores of this one bullet in no way changes my opinion of this bullet. Regards, Eagleye.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I have used the 140 Partition at 3250+ in my 264 Win Mag, and the 160 Partition from the 7mm STW at Similar velocities, and shot game at very short range, and even where heavy bone was encountered, I have not seen this "reputation" reveal itself. We're not talking deer bones here either. Moose and Elk. It may happen, but a reputation for doing so....I think not!! EE

A "reputation" for falling apart? what utter nonsense. Been using Partitions out of my 300 Weatherby for YEARS on everything from deer, hogs, bear and african game with great results. I must admit I'm slowly becoming a TSX convert, but the Partition IS and always will be the standard by which other bullets are measured. jorge

do you use them to shoot down Migs?

That is, indeed, a good reference. It also reinforces what many here have already said, that the Partition is the bullet against which others are compared - and it should be obvious, one doesn't compare an upstart against an inferior product if one expects to be taken seriously.


To quote excerpts:



and:



The fact that these tests show other bullets to be better in some ways in their tests, not real field experience does in no way make a case for the Nosler being an inferior product. On the contrary, the fact that they used the Partition lends weight to the credibility of it as a good product.

I have used all of the bullets named in their tests in real field conditions. I like to use wet newsprint to get an idea of what to expect from a bullet but I easily concede that it is not the same as actual on game experience. I know what these bullets can do on real animals. I like all of them in varying degrees. I prefer one of them over the rest (it's not the Nosler) but I suspect that quite possibly another bullet (it could be the Nosler) is a better all around bullet. All will do the job if the most important element - the person - does their's.

Some of these protracted threads begin to get a little bit silly and I suppose they even begin to make some of us get a little bit more attached to things than we normally would be. I kind of liken the feeling to that which good <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ol' Bill (Clinton, that is), instilled in many of us in regard to guns in general. I know it made me want to go out and buy some more. I didn't really have any Partitions on my list prior to a couple of days ago but, heck, I'm sure thinking about adding some.

After reading the test I came away feeling partitions 30 years ago was the top bullet but today they have been surpassed by serveral brands. With only 64% weight retention on soft material, and talk of failure on animals with hard bones maybe there's some fire behind the smoke. Ya think?

"With only 64% weight retention..."

Just curious, for those of you who keep qouting the "weight retention" statistics, what do you think happens to that other 36% of the bullet that is not retained? Does it magically vaporize into air, or does it destroy bone and muscle tissue as it separates from the main part of the bullet core?

I guess nothing is perfect but the reputation of the Nosler Partition is too well established to be seriously challenged. I've put a lot of Partitions in a lot of animals with no complaints whatsoever. The same might be said of other bullets had I used them but the Nosler is the one I have the most experience with. My experience has been that the front end always opens up and the back end always punches through. I have never recovered one even from bull Elk.

LostHighway--

"Failure on animals with hard bones?" You mean Noslers only work on animals with soft bones? Geez, no wonder so many of mine have been flying apart.

In reality, I've used about 80% of the Partitions Nosler lists on their catalog ON GAME, from .25 to .416. By that I don't mean just diameter but weight and diameter. I have used all the .338's for instance.

And I have shot hell of lot of some particular Partitions into a great many animals, especially the 115 .25, 150 .270, 200 .30, 250 .338 and 300 .375. I have never, ever seen them come apart on bone, hard or soft, but then again I try to match them pretty well with the game. I don't, for instance, use 115 .25's on Cape buffalo--though I have seen them do darn well on elk, and on shoulder bone too. I guess it could have been soft shoulder bone.

I have also used just about all the more widely-known "premium" bullets, and more than once in a while. If I were to make a list of the best of the best, however, the Nosler Partition would still be on it, even if it does lose a third of its weight. This is because it makes game dead.

MD

Migs require 20mm HEI if you choose to be a real man and "close to guns." However nowadays it's much easier with AMRAAM or even the good ol AIM-9M Sidewinder. jorge

PS: great line on the "soft bones" Mule Deer !

I'd say finding a cure for cancer and herpes is easier than making a bullet that'll please everyone. You'd think that it'd be easy to make a bullet that you get get 4,000+fps at the muzzle, took 500 bullets to start fouling a barrel, put five bullets in a dime-sized hole at 300 yards, had a B.C. of .700, tough enough to shoot nose to tail of a bull moose at 10 yards but expanded to 12 times it's size on 800 yard shots at field mice, and oh yeah......cost only 5 cents a bullet. Now is that asking too much <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Lost Highway,

I would never argue that one bullet is always better than another just as I would never argue that one bullet could never fail. I do think there are some bullets which are better in some applications than others. My contention and, it seems, the contention of many here is that the Nosler Partition is not a bad bullet as some have suggested- that seems way too obvious. It is very erroneous logic to conclude as some here seem to that just because something is not as good somehow than another thing, that one is good and the other is bad.

There are varying degrees of greatness, adequateness, reliability or whatever descriptor you wish to use. The Nosler doesn't need to be pushed from those ranks in order for others to also hold similar title. That anyone should feel the need to do so only suggests that the bullet they so admire might be lacking if it can't withstand the scrutiny of comparative field statistics.

Most bullet 'failures' can actually be attributed to human failure of some sort - that is not an excuse for Partitions. I think it does apply to this particular bullet, however, and it probably wouldn't much matter whose box it came from.

Thanks for all of the good comments.
I'm sorry that some of the discussion deteriorated; Rick has either been occupied elsewhere or he has more patience than I do.

M D (does that make you Dr. Barsness?),
Thanks for chiming in on this.
Do I remember hearing about an article you wrote re decreased penetration due to expansion?

Mac,

Rick has got all the patience in the world. That is what is so great about the Campfire. If someone wants to show everyone they're a genuine azzhole, then they can prove it here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

badger

Although I bowed out of this discussion a long time ago and coceded defeat, (mostly due to my lack of posts having zero clout), I would like to point out that highway has nearly one hundred-fifty posts! He told us that he has hunted for over thirty years. Above all that he lives in colorado. Given all this, you completely disregard his commentary and treat him like a red-headed step child. Basically telling him he's FOS. Now, is this any way to treat someone with 150 posts?

Although my opinoin about bullets is now mute, I do think highway may have a point. The model "T" was the vehicle by which all others were judged, and jorge, would you feel comfortable flying a P-51 into combat today? What about the Hawken and round ball, the mountain men loved 'em, no deed to change. I thought the commodore 64 was great, too. Cant believe nobody uses em any more.

Now, try not to drag me back into the bullet subject. I admit that I was wrong and dont know jack s#!t about hunting or shooting, mostly due to lack of posts and computer knowledge. I have switched to the partitions, like it or not. I said: "Thats what 'the're' doing, must be the 'in' thing to do". And the deer I killed earlier this week with the partition did, in fact, die. Most do when shot placement is perfect.

BTW, Muley, if swift paid for your next safari and asked you to try their scorroco bullets on the trip, would you report in the magazine that the partition bullet is the best and has been for years, and the bonded bullets, generally, have the "wrong" type of mushroom, or something like that? Just kidding, I know what you'd write.

Actually, MD, who has forgotten more about hunting, ballistics, shooting, writing, integrity and especially courtesy than it appears you will ever learn, HAS written that he has found the Nosler 300 gr.-.375 cal. PT. to be superior in overall performance to the Swift A-Frame; if you could get over yourself for even half an hour and HEAR what most of the posters here are trying to tell you, this would be as obvious to you as your foolishness is to the rest of us.

Now, rodentman, WHAT,WHERE andWHEN were your kills with SMITHRITE BULLETS?????

It used to be "money talks" but it looks like now it is "number of post talks". Just try to make everything clear for us beginers and drop "money" and "number of post" so the rest of us can follow along with all this info. Don't anyone check the number of posts I have just to show me my ignorance as it won't mean anything to me or anyone else unless they start to charge for me reading this site.

OK, I was the one that brought up Mouseguns post total. I did it simply to point out that he has not establshed himself having any particular knowledge on this subject or any other, as opposed to those who have demostrated time and time again that they are more than qualified to speak on this subject.
The real experts here can cut you off at the knees when you start spouting BS with a few polite words.
The self styled experts resort to childish comments.
Those who are comfortable with their knowledge can listen to those who disagree and respond with reasonable comments. Mousegun on the other hand is so full of himself that any opion other than his own is seen as a personal attack, and any chance of reason and facts coming into play is out the window
I'm calling his comments 20% informed and 80% angry reaction that anyone would dare question his knowledge.
Maybe that 20% number is a bit high.

Cabarillo,

methinks you are missing the point here. Nobody (except the offended) said anything about the number of posts had anything to do with anything. Its the blanket statements made without any obvious real world experience or fact to back them up that make the seasoned members call bullshitt. Its also the "Well gee, if you don't believe what I say, then I won't play with you" attitude that reveals the poster's lack of maturity and/or lack of experience with the chosen subject.

It doesn't matter whether you have 1 post or 5000, the content sure does, though. Most people (me included) joined the Campfire for the camaraderie and to broaden our horizens on things gunny and hunting. There are people that post here that have more experience than I would gain in a hundred lifetimes. You can bullshitt the fans, but you can't bullshitt the players.............

'Nuff said

badger

mouse,

You still don't get it.......it isn't about number of posts, it's about credibility or in your case, lack 'O. Frankly in my mind I highly question your knowledge on guns, reloading or hunting. You remind me of a person(s) who showed up in a stock chat room I visit from time to time, came in kicking and screaming, disrupted the room, then after the fact, stated how they were only there to do some research for a masters thesis on internet chatroom psychology.

No matter the case, respectand/or credibility has to be earned, not demanded. You have not demonstrated the former and certainly won't get the later.

Later,

Tony

Macrabbit--

Naw, Dr. Barsness would be either my mother or father--but even then they only had lowly Ph.D.'s, not M.D.'s.

I have written several pieces on hunting bullets, but the last long one was published a couple years ago in either RIFLE or HANDLOADER, I can't remember which--probably HANDLOADER, since bullets are a handloader's obsession.

It basically pointed out that ANY big game bullet is a product of compromises between cost, expansion and penetration.

Plus velocity! As more than one custom bullet manufacturer has pointed out, if they could market bullets built to specific velocity levels, performance could be tuned even more finely. Some, in fact, have tried that. The first Fail Safes included two 180-grain models: one for the .308/.30-06, and one for .300 magnums. That quickly disappeared, probably because too many people didn't read the directions.

My point in the article (no doubt you could run it down on Wolfe's website, if you're interested) is that every bullet is made of compromises.

If you design a bullet that opens wide (to chop a big hole) it won't penetrate as deeply as a bullet that opens to a smaller frontal area. This can be offset somewhat by bonding or monometal construction, so that the bullet retains 90%+ of its weight. But any bullet that opens wide won't penetrate as much as another that has less frontal area.

Similarly, bullets that open into a narrower front won't chop as big a hole, everything else being equal, but they will penetrate more deeply. They also don't tend to kill smaller big game animals as quickly as bullets that open wide AND lose some weight. The lost weight takes the form of "secondary projectiles" that fly off and pucture various interior organs.

The Nosler Partition was designed both to penetrate relatively deeply AND to lose some weight. John Nosler the Elder (or as he is known around the factory, Big John) told me this himself in a coversation a few years ago. He had shot a lot of game by the time he designed the bullet, and felt that an all-around bullet should lose some of its front end, as such bullets tended to kill deer, caribou, antelope, etc. more quickly.

But he also wanted a buller that would penetrate deeply, especially through bone. He'd had a bullet from a .300 H&H blow up on the shoulder of a Canadian moose. So he used the machine shop in his trucking company to make the first Partitions. He field-tested them a lot, including on another moose, deliberately usinga shoulder shot. At first he just gave them to friends, but they worked so well eventually he started selling them. Pretty soon he didn't need a trucking company to make a living.

But the very premise of the Partition was to combine the best characteristics of bullets John had used: a fast-expanding deer bullet with a deep-penetrating big game bullet. He designed them to lose about a third of their weight. In fact, he never intended for the front core to remain in the jacket. He felt the bullet would kill better if it lost the front core, allowing the core to serve as a secondary projectile.

It wasn't until we got bonded bullets in the 1960's that people started becoming concerned if their bullet didn't retain at least 90% of its weight. This first bonded bullet was the Bitterroot Bonded Core, which generally penetrates about 2/3 the depth of a Nosler Partition of equal weight. This is because (duh!) it opens up a lot wider.

At the opposite end of the scale are the Barnes X and CT Fail Safe. Both open up to narrow fronts, yet retain most (sometimes all) of their weight. If you require all the penetration possible, they're the deal. Sometimes, however, they don't kill as quickly as one of the wide-opening bonded bullets.

Thus, designed a bullet is ALWAYS a compromise. Some hunters are convinced "their" premium bullet is the absolute best. In general I have found that this bullet is the first premium they ever tried. I 've tried about all of them, and they all work great--within their limitations. I tend to prefer the deep penetraters myself, but have killed several truckloads of game with wide-openers as well. They are ALL good bullets. With the exception of some very early versions of a few "premiums," I haven't found any real junk yet.

The Nosler Partition was designed as the optimum compromise bullet, that would act both as quick-opener and a deep penetrater. As a result, it doesn't open as widely as some, or penetrate as deeply as others. But as a compromise bullet, able to take on multi-tasking, it's hard to beat. I've proven this myself on several safaris, where I used Partitions to take came from 100 to 1500 pounds. The right Partition works great on that entire range.

Is it THE BEST bullet ever made? Depends on the application, just as with any other technology. But for somebody to claim the Partition a POS because it doesn't retain as much weight as their pet bullet--or because it doesn't open as widely, or because it doesn't cost 5 bucks apiece, or won't penetrate a tree and a deer, just reveals the limited range of the critic's thought and knowledge.

MD

Now I like the heck out of MD's last post!

Good post MD!!!!

That should about drop this subject.

You knew that from the first line didn't you? Anyone who starts off with a simple phrase so loaded with phunnin' obviously "ain't" too full of himself.




The problem with having MD in a 'battle' such as this is that, unlike a lot of us, he both knows a lot and is able to express it both clearly and respectfully. I think most people appreciate that.

I guess that really isn't much of a problem - now, if he would just drop by in the morning when I hope to help my wife go find a moose. I have every reason to believe he'd make the best of company regardless what bullets he might have loaded in his rifle - and even if they didn't match the Hornady Interlokt and Speer Grand Slam stuff we will be taking.

The thoughts of a "Thinking Man" are always interesting. Once again you've written well and let common sense shine through.Thanks John and Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Well spoken, Mule Deer. That is about as succinct and clear of a description of Partition bullet performance as anyone could write.
This forum is full of endless discussions and controversies of one bullet vs. another. If everyone recognized the concept of compromise in bullet design and construction, it might ease the constant anxiety. At the end of the day, just load up a Partition and go hunting!

Kutenay,

Mousegun's question was addressed to MD, not you. The query was regarding the Swift Scirocco, not the A-Frame.

Now, SFB, WHAT,WHERE and WHEN were your kills with SCIROCCO BULLETS?????

Thanks all!

Klikitarik, you might be interested to know that I have shot literal truckloads of big game with Hornady Interlocks--which just may be the cheapest "premium" bullet out there. In fact, just used one in late August to take a caribou in Quebec. Worked perfectly of course (150 .270 Spire Point, in a .270 Win.). Have also Grand Slammed my share of game--another bargain in the premium field!

MD

Obmuter, I am sure that you have far more hunting, shooting and ballistics knowledge than anyone here, but, you are simply wrong. I specifically asked MG about his experience with Smithrite Bullets because he made positive reference to them and, as I stated, I happen to know Russ Smith. I am interested in MG's opinions on bullets, however, I find his manner of expressing them to be objectionable. He might well be a good guy, but, his posts here have been offensive to the majority and thus he will not receive the attention to his efforts that he appears to desire.

I don't know if your final comment/question was directed at me, but, I have never loaded, shot or killed anything with a Swift Scirocco bullet or claimed to. I only discuss things on the basis of actual experience, as do the majority of the regulars here. Troublemaking Trolls usually leave us and I am sure that you will, too, hopefully very soon.

Kutenay,

When you refer to another user as "rodentman", do you consider that being a "Troublemaking Troll".

John- did you get a chance to do any brown trout fishing in the river below Toston this fall?

Dale

I only make derogatory remarks about those who make them first, as MG, in fact, did. You have yet to contribute ONE post on this thread that has anything to do with bullets, ballistics, hunting, shooting or ANYTHING other than acting like a jerk. So, my comments are valid and, it seems most of the posters have agreed.

Frankly, I think that you have an ulterior motive and I have a pretty fair idea what it is. MG, if he chooses to post his opinions on bullets, without continually whining about MD, for example, will find himself both welcomed and treated with polite interest. You, however, have quite clearly demonstrated that your interests are not in the topic, but, in other activities, so, I am now going to ignore your foolish comments.

I do not post much as I am trying to learn the most I can. As my experience dictates that I sit back from the fire and listen and learn. MD a very good description of premium bullets I learned something today. Thank You Doug D

Okay, okay, okay. If we must, I will delve into the bullet discussion one more time, but this is it! The origional post started with a simple question, did the bullets in the pics fail? Some said yes or maybe, most said absoloutly not. I tried to make my case about jacket separation and all that, but only stirred up a hornets nest. Thats when I tried to make some simple comparisons and I, admittedly, had some of my facts wrong. I did the honorable thing and admitted to any errors and promptly corrected myself.

Thats when things started to get heated and , though it may have been wrong on my part, I said "your bullets suck". But it was only because you were all implying that any thing that ever exited the muzzle of my rifles did the same. I could have mentioned ANY other bullet, but short of saying that partitions are cool, my bullets sucked worse.

When I realized that I was getting nowhere, and this was turning into "your ford sucks", "no way chevys are crap", "oh yeah, well you suck, too", "well your momma sucks [email]c@#k"[/email], type of discussion, I gracefully and honorably bowed out and admitted defeat in this debate. I honestly even bought partitions and shot a deer with one earlier this week.

The simple fact is, I was repeatedly called ignorant. I admitted to all mistakes on my behalf, I conceded and came over to your side for a while, and still you people continued with the "lets tear apart any thing mousegun uses and call him ignorant and a piss-poor hunter". I did everything I could to stay out of the "ford/chevy" arguement, and I was still called ignorant. Really folks, whose the ignorant ones here?

I think it's kinda funny, everyone here got so far off-base in the "whats better arguement", that the original question was never answered. Several people did chime-in with their poor expierences, but those people were quickly dismissed. Nobody asked them about parttions failures and thier input may have been helpful in explaining the origional question, "did the bullet in the pic fail"? For me the answer is simple, "How high are your standards"?

Now that I have my first kill with a partition, I cant say they did any thing better or worse than any other bullet in its class. My previous bullet selection is irrevelant in this discussion. The partitions kill just fine, and I believe even that is irrevelant at this juncture.

You people can continue with the "whats better arguement", but this is my last post in regards to "whats better". I said before, shot placement is everything. A good bullet wont make-up for lousy shooting any more than a magnum will. Shoot what you are comfortable with, and for god's sake, learn to shoot well.

-Mousegun (or was it Ratboy?)

I think that, if the original post had been more like this one, the fracas would not have happened. I am glad that you, MG, have decided to take the "highroad" and make the post you did, even though I disagree with aspects of it. My apologies for the "rodentman" crack and so, let's forget about "Ratboy" and all the rest and get down to important topics.

Since you seem familiar with Smithrite bullets, I would not be hugely surprised to find that you live in B.C., possibly in the Lower Mainland. My question concerning this was honestly intended as I get quite a number of p.m.s and personal phone calls requesting info. on firesrms related issues and, I have yet to shoot one of Russ's bullets.....so, I am very interested in reports from those who have.

I have honestly heard of only ONE report of a failure to perform as advertised concerning a Nosler PT. That was from a Psychologist and extreme gunnut, Dr. Murray G. who used to shoot at Barnet Rifle Club and published reams of bullet tests. He had the income to do this and once wrote that someone had brought him a NP that had bent and that this was his ONLY experience of failure with them. He was a reliable man and I believed his report.

I have personally shot them right through the shoulders of Bull Elk and actually prefer them for Deer as they do not seem to wreck as much meat as cup and core bullets do. I have seen them penetrate a Grizzly through the shoulders and even East Kootenay "Shiras" Moose, more than once.

So, I use them, but, I prefer the new Gold Partitions as they shoot well in my rifles and seem to be a bit better in penetration. I do most strongly agree about placement and shooting skill, that is why I am on the computer these days, as it is too wet to go to my club range.

So, this is good, let us know your other points, we are all pretty good folks here!

Best load for shooting through that sort of stuff is a 105mm flechette round. Saves on butcher bills too. A mortar would be pretty good if you could drop the bomb just over the trees.

Bottom line is that bullets are DESIGNED to expand when they hit a semisolid animal. When they hit something more solid (wood) the expansion is often much more dramatic.

Best technique is to stalk closer, closer, then bayonet the Bambi!

Now, there is what we will have to do if the !$%%^@#&* gunbanning Lieberals have their way!!!

Kutenay,

My first TWO posts were questions regarding Macrabbit's bad experience with the Partition bullet. One of the questions was answered, the other was not. This was long before I became, what you bar flies, would call hostile. Ignore me if you must, but you too have not had your facts straight through this debate.

I shot a 1500 lb (Indian guide's estimated weight) bull moose through the neck with one of my handloaded 210 grain Nosler Partitions over 75 grains of IMR4350 which yielded a chronographed muzzle velocity of 3020 fps out of my .338 Winchester Magnum "Alaskan" (26" barrel) pre-'64 Model 70.

The bullet hit and shattered a fist-sized vertebrae in his neck, then turned and traveled down his neck into his off-side shoulder and stopped just under the skin of that shoulder. The remaining bullet weight was/is 148.5 grains (I still have the bullet) meaning the Nosler Partition Bullet retained approximately 71% of its original weight.

The bullet penetrated, drove through a lot of muscle/bone & mushroomed perfectly... and stopped just under the skin on the off-side shoulder delivering all the bullet energy into the big moose's body causing instant death.

Just adding my 2�... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Whttail in MT--

Nope, I didn't get any fall fishing in, mostly because I became obsessed with figuring out the public-land pheasants around here. In fact, didn't get nearly as much fishing in as I would have liked the entire year--though did get lucky and land a 25-inch brook trout in Quebec during a caribou hunt.

You?

MD

Mousegun--

OK, let's back up and try to start over. I should be more patient as I grow older, but sometimes it just doesn't work--though I will note that I did answer the original question.

Like Kutenay, I would also like to hear your experiences with Smithrite bullets. That's what this Campfire is supposed to be about, an exchange of experience and information.

MD

MD- I didn't get any fall fishing in. Good thing Big Stick picks up our slack in that arena. With work commitments I didn't even get as much hunting done as usual. Hopefully I'll get your way to elk hunt over the long New Year's weekend. I have some yet to be tested TSXs that I'd sure like to use on a cow!

Dale

If the question is did the bullet in the picture fail, then the answer is no. It performed beyond expectations. No bullet should be able to penetrate a tree before killing a deer.

The only reason passions are running so high on all of this is because it is unheard of for Partitions to fail when used for the purposes for which they were created.

When you pull any bullet out of a dead animal it becomes a bit difficult to speak of bullet failure. In other words, at precisely what point during the process of killing the animal did the bullet fail? Would I be satisfied if all my recovered bullets looked like the ones pictured? No. However, as I have already stated I have never recovered a Partition. Maybe some would have looked like that. Prehaps I just haven't shot enough game yet with Partitions. I would estimate somewhere between fifty and seventy kills with Partitions in .270,.30,.338. This includes deer, antelope, and Elk at ranges from a few feet off the muzzle to way out there. I think the thing that impresses me most about the Partition is their tendency to shoot through the game. I want two holes to bleed out of and let air in. The "dump all its energy into the game theory" is bunk for anything larger than a prairie dog. Most of the shots have been close which may account for the uniformly successful penetration and some other bullet might have done as well but it would not have done any better.

kutenay is a homo!

i think if we leave our rifles home and start throwing rocks ant 60 mph we wont have to worry about them hitting branches and then killing deer to.

im quite fond of partitions, core lokts and balistic tipps as deer and elk bullets.

but i realy on none and will take game with any bullet mentioned. with about every rifle i own.

seems to me that bullet worked just fine and did not by any means fail. it got were it was going while incountering prior obsticales. what more could you ask.??????

Evan

Great pictures! And I agree with others who've stated that you ought to send them to Nosler - that's an outfit that looks into matters like this. It's puzzling seeing that jacket with no base core. I've had very odd stuff happen when the bullet first hits brush (and that isn't specific to the Nosler partition).

nice pictures and an interesting report, but it is an anecdote, a single unusual case... as others have noted the partition reputation has been built on a very large number of excellent performances on game, and this makes sense given how the bullet is constructed

I like them based upon my experiences, and see no reason to stop using them

They are great bullets.

moooosegun your just wanting to be argumentative. use whatever you want. sounds to me that just because you don't use it then then they ain't no good to you. got alot of anger in your speech. the originator plainly stated that he titled it failure just to draw more ideas.

mmmmoooouuussssseeeegunnnnn started the pesonal attacks didn't he??? im late to this discussion and am sorry for that but my computer isn't working great. this guy probably is a nice guy if we got to know him. sounds like he has limited experience and stumbled when he put his foot in his mouth and became argumentative.

ive haven't shot many deer with the partition (maybe 20) but all have done a superb job. to give an example: 2 does at 20 -25 yards and i planned to use a couple tags at the end of the season. shot the first quartering away and it took 4-5 steps and fell over. the 2nd deer stood there behind a waist high young pine quartering away. this shot clipped the top of the pine off and hit the deer dead in the shoulder and caused a larger entrance wound and a very small exit hole in the lower part of the neck. the other deer had a pencil sized hole going in and a dime hole coming out. both died within steps of where they stood. this was with a 280 and the 150 gr. partition loaded at 2750 fps. i could go on about the others but it would say similarily the same. all dead and all dead quick within steps. of all the whitetails and muledeer i have shot, all have died with one shot except 1 muledeer at 447 yards from my 7mm ultra mag and the 140 grain nosler. i hit it low and back but killed it on the 3rd shot. the 2nd i basically missed cutting only hair. i obviously should not have shot at a critter this far. bad choice. you can't beat a well placed partition. i feel the same about the hornady interlock. i can say this because its from practical experience and about all have come in thickets at 10 to 80 yards. i can't speak for any other critter except coyotes and wild dogs running on the club here in n.c. their all dead too with 1 shot and steps following. mouse im sorry for the derogatory comments.

gregsnider has now become mousegun's bitch!

Why must you trolls insist on dragging me back into this assinine discussion. I was hoping we could put this behind us and get on with our lives, but no, trolls like greg snyder have nothing to do but stir the pot. Well Mr ssssssssnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyydddddddddddddeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, I dont take kindly to your calling me out. I was quietly reading posts and find you just cant let it end. What more do you losers want from me. Greg, did you even read my last few posts.

Most of the people around here are so full of themselves that this is the only place you guys can find anyone to listen anymore. You are the type of people who bore your friends, family, co-wokers and aquaintences with your long, drawn out hunting stories. In fact this is how you sound to a normal intelligent person: "I went deer hunting... blah, blah, blah... went to my stand at 2:00am... blah blah blah... heard some leaves rustle... Blahblahblah... passed up 6 bucks... Blahblahblah... stalked the mighty stag... Blah blah blah. Hefted my mod 700 in the latest sssuamag... blah... my crystal clear simmons... Blah blah blah... still waiting for a shot... blah blah blah...the sun started to come up... saw 14 grey squirrels... blah blah blah blah blah blah.. if it werent for my fantastic shooting skills and awesome equipment ... blah....blah....blah... shot placement was perfect... blah... yeah, he's huge, at least 14" spread... blahblah... the taxidermist said it's a beuaty... blah blah blah..." Every time, the same boring stories. year after year, the same old stories of how you saw the most, biggest, and best. How your hunting stuff is the latest and greatest. how your caliber is bigger and better. how your shooting skills are superior and how you never flinch.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. MG, you best learn a little better respect for your betters. You have been bellyaching about a point that you have been proven WRONG a dozen times over. These guys have been pulling more big game out of the woods than you'll ever see in your little lifetime. Your not fit to tie the boots of the likes of kutenay or "Whttail_in_MT". Why, I bet they could kill deer with just harsh language better than you could with a bullet.

So sit back and take a listen from them. You might learn a thing or two.

I must be a oddball...I have never had any bullets "fail". Including core lokts, powerpoints, balastic tips, gamekings, interlocks, etc, etc. My favorite bullet for a long time was actually the Speer grand slam. Killed quite abit of stuff with them and they worked great.
FWIW Nosler partitions almost always "fail" if you consider sheding of the core a failure, but they work and almost always shoot through. I have never seen a bonded core bullet fail, but they also dont penatrate as far either. IMO I could care less about shooting through a aniumal. I like fast kills, and the larger frontal area of a bonded core bullets achieves this FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN. Again this is IMO.

remmingtonspc:

What happened to your old sig line? Seemed kinda fitting.

Take this for what you want, but I've had good luck with most bullets if I have matched their intended use (within intended velocity parameters) to the game I've hunted. I don't expect a "conventional" 150 gr .30 cal bullet at 3400+ fps to hold a steady course through a deer if the shot is at an angle and if there's a liklihood of bone being hit (I've seen ribs deflect "softer bullets" driven at high velocities). That said, I think we're very fortunate to have what's available these days for bullets and it seems to get better even by the day.

obmuter - what happened to your girlfriend "mousegun" - did she break up with you?

Nosler is a good outfit. Nosler will address the issue that the original poster identified if the company is aware of it. Odd things can most certainly happen, but at this late date I do find it uncommon that a post of this type is abandoned, unresolved and left to speculation.

Here's what I got on the Nosler forum-

Separation Anxiety


Not complaining.

My friends at the Campfire sent me over here to the Nosler experts-

165 gr .308 Partition
3000 fps muzzle
Doe, 40 yards
Found jacket only, alongside femur (but with no damage to the bone) in the nearside ham (does that make about 4 inches deep?), with no evidence that any lead made it in; certainly none made it out.
The bottom crimp is still all there but the base is out of its .308 round to .302 X .315.
There are no dents in the shaft of the jacket.
Halfway between us was a single row of wild plum or young cottonwood trees. (I was unable to closely inspect for sign of tree impact.) (The doe had been injured, else I wouldn't have been shooting through the trees.)
I'd aimed behind the shoulder.

So, what happened? Did I hit some wood, losing both cores and getting some of the front jacket ripped off, while the jacket continued, hitting my target two feet to the right of aim and penetrating only partway?

(Another shot put her down.)



NOSLER1

I would say you definitely hit some wood. The jacket showes some tipping to one side and the base is slightly oblong, this indicates the bullet was tumbling on impact. Additionaly, hitting 2 foot from POA tells us the bullet was deflected. Thankfully you were able to collect the deer.



Paul Barnard

Nosler 1: Losing the front and rear core seems unusual to me. I am sure you guys have subjected the partitions to some torture testing. Have you been able to get one to shed both cores like that in lab testing? My experience with partitions suggests this is an anamoly, but it has me curious.


squirrelsniper

Did you examine the wound for any sign of a destabilized/tumbling bullet?
My theory is basically the same as NOSLER1's. You got wood which damaged the nose portion, destabilized the bullet and resulted in the rear core getting squirted out due to the bullet not hitting straight on. The slightly out of round base supports the theory that the bullet hit somewhat sideways. Of course that's just a theory, but it sounds as likely as anything else I can come up with

**************************************

41, I don't think it's been abandoned (hijacked and filled with stuff that makes it unpleasant to read, yes), and I figure it will remain unresolved and good only for the speculation I requested, because of the lack of control in my "experiment".
As I stated somewhere in the thread, I don't really consider my experience a failure- that was the 'hook' to get readers. I think the sum of opinion is that it's likely that I did hit one or more branches (and that that is always a bad thing) and now we see one result.
I'm satisfied.

remmingtonspc:

You must have meant to write kutenay, she got tired of me. If you find out who has her now, you could probably trade some spent 7-08 cases for her.

Thanks. I meant no slam toward you, macrabbit. Good for you that you carried the issue forward. I appreciate it. Good work on your part <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

had a problem similar to that in 1994. Shot a running buck at 50 yards with a 300wby mag. loaded with store bought 180 gr NP- weatherby loads. The bullet entered behind the shoulder not hitting any bone. The bullet did not exit the deer at all. it completely exploded once it was inside the deer. pencil lead to .17cal sized pieces were the normal size that we found in side.

Dont get me wrong, I love partitions, but I dont buy this theory:
"You got wood which damaged the nose portion, destabilized the bullet and resulted in the rear core getting squirted out due to the bullet not hitting straight on. The slightly out of round base supports the theory that the bullet hit somewhat sideways"

In order for the lead to "squirt" it would have to become molten. If the bullet tumbled, it could not have possibly tumbled faster than the original spin of when it left the barrel. A bullet will always slow down when it hits something. Lead will only "flow" when it is molten. It can only become molten if HEATED to 621 degrees farenhiet. The impact could not have heated the bullet any more than the friction of when it left the barrel. If the rear of the bullet were torn or ripped, I would belive that the core left the bullet on impact. However, the rear of the bullet is intact and the lead is gone. I belive the rear became out-of-round when it hit the deer. What happened to the lead? I dont know. Ido know the lead did not melt due to hitting a branch.

-Thank GREGSNYDER for resurrecting this discussion. I tried to let it die.

thanks greg snyder

I've read thru all the posts from start to finish, and I must admit I'm a bit apprehensive about even posting. Not really interested in ending up like mousegun, or any others who
"questioned" the integrity of Nosler's Partition.
For twenty years or so, I've experienced bullet failure after bullet failure when shooting them from 7mm & 300 mags at maximum levels. The bullets I was using were either 160-gr
in 7mm, or 180-gr in the 300s. The "failures" only occurred when I had an animal pop up under 100-yds and I took the shot. By "failure" I mean bullet disintegration, jacket/core separation. The bullets were from three 'other' mfrs, as I never got around to using any Nosler before I became so frustrated and decided to change what I was doing. I went back to standard cartridges. Only to have the same thing
happen again. Exact same scenerio, except this time the bullet was ony traveling around 2800 fps MV, and hit the mule deer by accident in the shoulder instead of exactly where I was aiming, at a distance of about 50-yds. That was in the late 1980s. So, once again I changed bullet mfrs. I won't bother naming them, but since my last change in the late 1980s I've never experienced another bullet which disintegrated or had jacket core separation, regardless where the bullet strikes. Just the opposite. That's my experience. And yes I did change bullet mfrs after repeatedly experiencing 'failures'. After all, it was the bullet that came apart, not the gun, cartridge, or anything else. I guess I'm also fortunate as I don't shoot thru brush, trees, or any obstacle. I've never subscribed to the 'theory' of a cartridge or bullet's capability of "busting" thru brush.
In all fairness and objectivity, the pictures macrabbit posted do not look like any of the fragments I've recovered from animals. Usually the jacket is in pieces, and sometimes I never did find the lead core, or only fragments at best.
And since I've never personally used the Partition, I cannot speak from personal experience about their performance. But
I have heard 'grumblings' about them losing the top portion of the bullet, and the shank not penetrating very deep from folks
who were almost to the person, shooting a magnum of one flavor or another, and the shot they took was usually around
100-yds, or less.
All that aside, I've always considered the Partition as THE
"Premium Bullet" of the Nosler line of hunting bullets, the AccuBond notwithstanding. And still do. And I'm not interested
in criticizing anyone who uses ANY bullet in their hunting endeavors. Obviously, they are using what has worked for them, or what they believe is the best bullet for their type of hunting. And that's why I used the bullets I do, they simply work for me, in the cartridges I shoot, at the ranges I hunt,
on the game animals I hunt.

As for the 'flaming' of mousegun and others who, IMHO, only raised the issue of 'bullet failure', I don't think either their manners or questions were unreasonable from an objective POV. Especially given my experience with jacket/core separation with a variety of bullets fired from magnum cartridges. And the 165-gr Partition is a little light for a 300 RUM. There was no mention of the range the shot was taken at, but looking at the follow-up pics of what the 'scene' was,
it appears to be under 100-yds. Nor was there any mention of what the load was, or if it had been chronographed, only macrabbit's suggestion of around 3,000 fps MV. This cartridge
can easily produce 3300 to 3400 fps MV if a maximum loading is used with a 165-gr bullet.

I don't think anyone knows exactly what did or did not happen to this bullet after it left the barrel. Yes, it does appear to have hit something BEFORE striking the animal.
As I mentioned above, if it had disintegrated on impact with the animal, I doubt the jacket would've been so well intact. I do find it interesting that hitting a piece of brush caused the core to separate though.

Regards,
travelr

No need for apprehension, Travelr, as long as your knuckles don�t drag when you walk. Welcome aboard.

The responses to Mousegun were not brought on by his questioning of the Partition�s integrity but by his early posts� inflammatory remarks (your bullet sucks ... keyboard experts ... your excuses) and unfounded generalizations of the campfire (nobody here uses bonded bullets so they must suck, etc), and his ignorance of fact (I did not know that Partitions are not bonded ... cheaply made), although the offhand way he dismissed the Partition and its storied reputation among experienced hunters deserved rejection.

Your post is, in the main, a good addition to the thread. But, you should be a little more careful of your facts if you wish to build a solid reputation of your own- although you say you�ve read all of the posts, 1) You call my cartridge a 300 RUM even though the second sentence of my initial post states that I was using the .300 SAUM; and 2) You say no mention was made of the range of the shot but 40 yards is also in the second sentence, and again in my fifth post. And I hope you don�t make a practice of mischaracterizing our posts: my thread plainly states, �at a muzzle velocity of about 3000 fps.� I �suggested� nothing, correctly using the adverb �about� to accurately express the shot-to-shot velocity variance that I found each of the many times that I did fire over my chronograph.

Really, stay reasonable and we will play nice, and learn from and entertain each other.
I repeat, your post is, in the main, a good addition to the thread.

This question has become a cliche but, were those animals from which you recovered bullet fragments dead?

BTW, Travelr, I'd like to see the magic fairy (or RickBin, whoever is more powerful) delete some of those disgraceful posts. Sometimes I thought I was in grade school again.

I'm in the camp that likes some frag happening. There are some folks who want pass-thu every time, so I guess the Barnes or military ball is for them.
I spent 30 years shooting regular old Hornady 100s out of my BoB with consistently deadly results. Whether I found a hole or a blob of lead or some shiny copper on the off side - of the dead animal - made no never-mind to me.
I'm glad to think of this as a chocolate or vanilla situation- whichever style one wishes to choose to make dead deer.

Mousegun
Have stayed out of this for a lot of reasons... have shot a large number of critters with partitions and still will in some cases... but my question here involves simple physics... did you sleep through that class?

"In order for the lead to "squirt" it would have to become molten. If the bullet tumbled, it could not have possibly tumbled faster than the original spin of when it left the barrel. A bullet will always slow down when it hits something. Lead will only "flow" when it is molten. It can only become molten if HEATED to 621 degrees farenhiet. The impact could not have heated the bullet any more than the friction of when it left the barrel. If the rear of the bullet were torn or ripped, I would belive that the core left the bullet on impact. However, the rear of the bullet is intact and the lead is gone. I belive the rear became out-of-round when it hit the deer. What happened to the lead? I dont know. Ido know the lead did not melt due to hitting a branch. "

Squirting out does not require a molten state. Take a cast bullet, put it on an anvil and smack it with a big hammer. I guarantee it will not reach 621, nor will it melt. However, that sucker is gonna flow!

A bullet will always lose energy when it hits something is close enough to correct, but extending that to saying the rotation will slow is a very different thing. It probably will slow the rotation and undoubtedly will change the rotation, but it is not guaranteed to slow it. Tumbling only means external forces have been applied and you can PROVE nothing about that.
art

macrabbit ,
I stand corrected.

Yes, all the animals required a second shot to put the animal out of it's misery, and were quite dead along with their 'blood soup' wounds. From my perspective, this is a senseless waste of good meat, causes unnecessary misery to the animal being shot, and money (requiring more than one bullet to get the job done). I'm first and foremost a meat hunter, not a trophy
hunter. So the condition of the meat is of more concern to me than the size of antlers or head, or whatever. Being somewhat frugal, I subscribe to one-shot, one-kill mentality. No sense wasting several bullets when one bullet properly placed will more often than not do the job. Of course,
"insurance shots" are always a worthy investment.
I also acknowledge that the majority of posts re this topic have dismissed the jacket/core separation of the Partition to either a 'fluke', or 'that it hit something prior to hitting the animal.
All of which leads me back to the original post. I realize that many, many folks are not concerned about the condition of their bullets after the kill, only with the end results. And why not? This IS the goal. Add the 'conventional wisdom' that no two bullets of the same mfr, weight, design, velocity, behave exactly the same when striking the same animal, it only stands to reason that the condition of any bullet retrieved from an animal will display a wide range of variables regarding wound channel and bullet condition.
Taking all the above into consideration, it is MHO, that any bullet pushed beyond it's design characteristics, whether that is a Barnes X-bullet which loses one of it's petals, or a 'cup n pour' bullet that separates on impact, require careful evaluation and study on behalf of those using such bullets to determine the best they can whether or not to continue using that bullet. Thereby risking the possibility of continued repetition of similar performance.
There are good lessons to be learned from the 30-30 Win firing it's 150- or 170-gr flat nose, 'cup n pour' bullets taking probably more game than any other cartridge. One such lesson might be it's low velocity that doesn't push the design
characteristics of it's bullets. And I think it is safe to say, that there were thousands, if not millions of animals collected prior to the advent of a bullet traveling 3,000 fps.
Cartridges that generate high bullet velocity are fine, they're
even better when the bullet industry catches up with their technology and manfactures bullets that perform to their design characteristics at such velocities. Fortunately, the design, quality, and production of bullets today has NEVER been better for all cartridges than it is today. (I don't think this statement could've been made with any credibility in 1950s.)
Yet, even at the 'modest' velocities that some of the 7mm & 300 short magnum cartridges generate can push the 'cup n
pour' technology's design characteristics to it's limits at short ranges. This includes 'bonded technology' as well (btw, which is better today than ever).
The only remedies I know that offsets this are:

1) Ignore the whole thing and keep on using what you've used for years (not really a remedy, more a reaction); or,

2) 'Download' the cartridge, which totally defeats the purpose of using the cartridge to start with; or,

3) Don't shoot at an animal with 'lighter' bullets from magnum cartridges at short range; or,

4) Increase bullet weight (slow down the bullet); or,

5) Use a bullet with different design characteristics. Barnes TSX, CT Failsafe, and North Fork are a few examples.

This was really the post I was thinking about doing yesterday,
but with all the personal attacks and few addressing the issue, I was apprehensive to say the least. Like it or not, the Partition bullet DID have a core/jacket separation. Ultimately,
we'll individually decide whether the circumstances nullify this instance, or consider this to be important or significant.

I think it'd be more helpful if you named your brands.
What have you decided on now?
Matching bullet style to velocity is of course necessary.
I'm really surprised that you had more than a few blow-ups with even your 'standard' cartridges.

These days I primarily use four brands of bullets that work very well for the cartridges and type of hunting I do. In my
444 Marlin I use either a Hornady 265-gr FP (2100 fps) or hard cast 325-gr SWC; 375H&H (the only magnum I have left) I use the TSX bullet; the 280 Rem gets primarily Barnes 160-gr TSX, once in awhile (high 2800 to low 2900fps), the 160-gr Speer Grand Slam; the 7x57 gets either 140-gr TSX, 150 X, or Speer Grand Slam 145-gr, the 6.5x55 Swede gets
a mix of Speer, Remington, TSX, Sierra or any other bullet I may be experimenting with at the time; the 223 also shoots well with a variety of bullets. I've tried and have had mixed results with the Swift Scirocco. The mixed results have been in finding a suitable load for the cartridge being used. I don't know how well they perform on impact. But from what I've read or heard, they look promising.
The last two or three years I've been getting excellent accuracy and performance from the Speer Grand Slam bullets with no 'failures' as well. So I've incorporated them into my shooting.
Almost all of my shots at game are taken at 200-yds or less.
Most being less. With the exception of the 444 (max 150-yd), the rest are capable of excellent performance out to 300-yds, beyond which, I've rarely had the need to shoot.
All of my problems with bullets disintegrating on impact have been using 7mm RM, 24" barrel; 300WM using 24 & 26" barrel; and the 7x57 Mauser using 22" barrel. With the exception of the 7x57, as I mentioned in my first post, the bullets were 160-gr 7mm & 180-gr 30-cal usually traveling close to 3000 fps, or faster. The failure with the 7x57 was a
139/140-gr bullet at 2800 fps. All failures happened at/or under 100-yds.

These simply work for me. I realize that others prefer other brands. Many probably for the same reasons I prefer these.
But since I changed out from several of those 'other brands'
I've not experienced another bullet with jacket/core separation. That's almost 20-yrs of hunting experience since I changed. Maybe it's just "luck". Maybe it's because I cut-back,
then eliminated using all but one magnum cartridge. But that wouldn't explain the bullet from the 7x57. A cartridge of modest reputation and even more modest velocity!
I also realize some folks like to talk of "a statistic of one". Every shot I take is a statistic of one, unless I'm at the range firing repetitive shots. And even those aren't exactly under the same variables, or I'd expect my groups to be smaller.
Taken to the extreme, I'm only interested in the "statistic of one", and that is the one shot (and hopefully only) I make filling my tag each year when it all counts.
Then there is the expense for bullets. A factor which does influence some of our decisions. For the few pennies per bullet difference between what I'm using and other brands, it's worth it to me. Where it isn't, I've made compromises just like everyone else does. Which is why I'm not criticizing anyone's choice of bullets.
An interesting aside about this discussion from my limited perspective and non-experience with the Partition is that Swift's A-Frame is of similar construction to the Partition, but I've not heard any 'grumblings' about the A-Frame. Maybe they're not used very much this side of the pond (in comparison with the Partition), or used only in larger calibers with lower velocities. I don't know.
Something that may be worth considering: the long-range
'hunters' (those folks that shoot well beyond 400 yds) often use Sierra MatchKings to hunt with. Sierra DOES NOT
recommend that MatchKings be used to hunt with primarily due to their thin jackets. But at 500-600+ yds, their bullets have lost enough velocity to actually perform and expand.
Conversely, I've heard nothing but raves from those shooting
Hornady's Interbond bullets usually obtaining complete pass-thru on elk.
Just some thoughts.

Squirting out does not require a molten state. Take a cast bullet, put it on an anvil and smack it with a big hammer. I guarantee it will not reach 621, nor will it melt. However, that sucker is gonna flow!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not to nitpick here, but yes, since lead is very malleable, it can deform due to impact (obviously). However, I believe the original picture (and one point in the argument) was that the copper (also malleable) jacket is intact, no visible sign of deformation. It seems unlikely that there would have been some impact that would've deformed the lead without deforming the surrounding jacket.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A bullet will always lose energy when it hits something is close enough to correct, but extending that to saying the rotation will slow is a very different thing. It probably will slow the rotation and undoubtedly will change the rotation, but it is not guaranteed to slow it. Tumbling only means external forces have been applied and you can PROVE nothing about that.
art
--------------------------------------------------------------------
True enough. Any idea what rotation it would take to "spin-out" the lead insert? The total kinetic energy (1/2 m*v*v + 1/2 I*w*w), would imply that if a large portion of the bullet's energy was translated into "spin" energy, the velocity component would have been reduced considerably. Yet the jacket was found (4" in the ham of the leg), implying that the bullet was still travelling at considerable velocity. Not to take mousegun's side here (he IS a troll, nonetheless), but is seems that there is something fishy that happened "in this case". Has the manufacturer had any say in this?

First, I am not an engineer, so if there is one out there, please either verify or correct my supposition. Thanks, in advance.

The rear lead core of a partition (or any other bullet) was not designed to withstand centripetal force in any direction other than that in which it would be spinning coming out of a rifle barrel (say, for example, with a spin rotation across it's diameter on the X-axis - the way we think about bullets spinning). Have that bullet hit a twig between branch and target and start tumbling with a rotation across it's length on the X-, Y-, or Z-axis and the rear core insert will very likely be "squirted" or spun out of the jacket material by the centripetal force.

Want an example? Take a soda can. Cut the top off, punch a hole in the bottom, thread a string in and knot it. Pour it 3/4 full of water and freeze it. Now, you and I both know that if you through it like a football, top or bottom first with a spiral. The frozen core stays in.

Spin it by the string, like a bola, and watch the frozen core come flying out. I figure the same thing happened to the partition bullet in this case.. Any thoughts?

remingtonspc
"Not to nitpick here, but yes, since lead is very malleable, it can deform due to impact (obviously). However, I believe the original picture (and one point in the argument) was that the copper (also malleable) jacket is intact, no visible sign of deformation. It seems unlikely that there would have been some impact that would've deformed the lead without deforming the surrounding jacket."

A couple points about your assumptions... even if the deformity is no longer apparent it is not proof that deformity did not occur... but have you, or anybody else measured that bullet to see EXACTLY what size the hole might have enlarged to? Guessing from a photo is hardly good science!

Further, the springback in a stressed jacket is another unknown, as is the deformation that occurred when it actually hit the critter.

An old police phrase to the effect, "Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence" applies here.

As for the rest of your argument it all continues to devolve to guessing with someone else doing both the observing and the reporting. That is not enough to make any argument...
art

VA
First of all, your terms are crossed. Centripetal force is the force that keeps the lead inside the jacket, applied by the jacket. Your frozen soda can spun on the end of a string is kept in orbit by the string applying centripetal force to the rock, is another example.

Centripetal force works to keep things to the center. There is no such thing as centrifugal force.

There is simply not enough information to prove anything about anything in the single case. It is neither properly recorded, nor reproduceable... Any science applied here is bad science, wasted...
art

if you smash a chunck of lead with a hammer the lead will flow, or squirt. if there is a copper jacket around the lead it will also flow and will not "rebound".

Mousegun
Based on your metalurgical expertise, so wonderously displayed, I simply must take your word as Gospel..................................................NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
art

Dude...You have gone from Jackass to Blacksmith...WTF???
If you want to argue,get married!
Shoot your new Partitions(allegedly) and piss off!

Weird... thats all I can say. I've dug partitions out of sand banks, that still had the rear core intact. As far as failure, I have only used the 130 gr. partition in .270 cal. I used them on at least a dozen deer and two elk with good results {dead animal and I didn't have to walk far}. This may sound weird, but in my experience they sucked on black bear. I lost two in one year, both shots were witnessed by a partner and confirmed to be behind the shoulder in the heart lung area. Both took off like they hadn't been hit, but thats not unusual and they both left small bright colored blood trails that petered out within in 50 yds. I spent a full day with my partner looking for the each bear and never found them. I ended up switching bullets. I get real discouraged when a bullet doesn't do what I expect even if its never let me down in the past. I know I'm not the only one to experience this, because I've talked to alot of other hunters about it. I found it interesting to read the comment in this thread about the smaller calibre partitions not living up to thier reputation as well as the larger ones. I was also glad to see Nosler actually show a picture of a partition with the front portion missing in one of thier ads. Everyone I have ever seen in a reloading manual or ad always had the perfect mushroom look which I have never seen....... ever!!!

What a thread! Geezzzzz!!!! I don't think anyone was convinced, swayed, conned or wooed!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

True, but some were entertained...

Very entertained<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Paul

A couple points about your assumptions... even if the deformity is no longer apparent it is not proof that deformity did not occur... but have you, or anybody else measured that bullet to see EXACTLY what size the hole might have enlarged to? Guessing from a photo is hardly good science!

Further, the springback in a stressed jacket is another unknown, as is the deformation that occurred when it actually hit the critter.

An old police phrase to the effect, "Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence" applies here.

As for the rest of your argument it all continues to devolve to guessing with someone else doing both the observing and the reporting. That is not enough to make any argument...
art


Fair enough, but I think that this thread is not going to sway anyone from their predisposed feeling for or against partition bullets. I am not saying that my argument is in any way conclusive. However, I do think there is something that happened in this case that I would be interested in hearing the manufacturers take on it.

In a general question on bullet design, I would ask of your opinion: Do you see instances where there are advantages of using bonded bullets over partitioned, and vice versa? Or do you feel that partitioned bullets are, as a whole, better performing than bonded?

SPC
Anecdotal science is not my gig... I have shot quite a few critters with a number of flavors of bullets and often call the damage based on the critter's response... it is almost all about placement.

I see little variation based on modest bullet design changes. I see X bullets always exiting, but I have found many partitions. I like Sierra Pro-hunters because they are easy to place and I find them equal to the partition in performance... but I recover lots of them.

My choices are based on simple criteria... the bullet has to be accurate is primary... If deer hunting (and I hunt Kodiak deer more than any other, where I hear they have bears) I am not inclined to worry about the bullet composition or construction and the selection process is ends at accuracy. (Though I use X bullets in calibers smaller than 30 on Kodiak)

If I am shooting moose, bears or goats the X almost always gets the nod. Simple enough for me to handle that way...
art

Thanks for the insight and I stand (type) humbly and thankfully corrected.

Ditto, and ditto again. Particularly entertaining since MOST <===(note emphasis) of the �testimony� IS either anecdotal (made even more humorous by the fact that even the control cases chosen to make the point are so small in number as to be statistically meaningless), or worse yet based on hearsay or even pure conjecture, as in �Jeez, I never used partitions but other bullets shot really fast exploded so I don�t think anyone should shoot ANY bullet over 3000 fps.�

I actually would be interested to hear some REAL experiences on the �smaller calibre partitions not living up to thier reputation as well as the larger ones�, such as in what bore sizes this phenomenon occurs. My experience is mainly with 7mm and has been the polar opposite � I�ve had much better results with 140s than 160s or 175s�

After re-reading this thread and my comments, I surely hope I haven't given the impression that I'm anti-Nosler or that this sort of thing is more likely to occur with Noslers -- nothing would be further from the truth -- strange things can happen and the more recovered bullets one collects the more that's evident. Given the "abuse" game bullets undergo, it's a wonder that they perform as well as they nearly always do (given a fair matching to the game and circumstances).

But what makes me smile is how a few people can look at one recovered bullet and come to different conclusions after hearing the same story (or after being present for the kill) regarding its performance. Sometimes I truly want a whiskey after listening to much of it.

I should clarify things a bit. In my above post I'm referring to bullets I or a hunting companion have recovered. No slam was intended to anyone having posted on this thread.

One of my friends is a very fine shot and loves the .270 Win, trying bullet after bullet in his handloads in his quest for the perfect combo for deer. Several years ago he was griping about the small exit hole the 130 Partition gave him on a big deer shot at longish range. I asked him how much damage was done to the VITALS of the deer. Oh, it was lethal, true enough... but he thought it might have been just a bit more impressive. I recounted a story of what a BTip out of my .270 did under nearly identical circumstances at a similar range and he thought that was much better. Okay. But what if the shot had been more at an angle, requiring more penetration?

I've used both bullets with great satisfaction, but he wanted the broad-side performance of the one while not recognizing the purpose of the other.

Journeyman wrote:
"Jeez, I never used partitions but other bullets shot really fast exploded so I don�t think anyone should shoot ANY bullet over 3000 fps."

I hope your statement above is not in reference to my posts. If it is, I NEVER stated "I don't think anyone should shoot ANY bullet over 3000 fps"! In fact, I never criticized anyone's choice of bullet. I did suggest that if one is using a cartridge capable of producing 3000 fps or more MV, it might be more beneficial to use a bullet designed to perform at those velocities throughout the ranges an individual shoots game. Say from 25-yds to 300 yds. I went on to give examples of bullets which I consider to have those design characteristics, such as Barnes TSX, North Fork, and CT FailSafe, as well as others! I did not criticize anyone's choice of bullets, nor name the mfrs of those bullets that disintegrated at or under 100-yds when fired primarily from magnum cartridges. My point about bullet 'disintegration' was twofold: First, it was the stimulus for me looking for a 'better' bullet; and second, after repeatedly experiencing this behavior
it was apparent to me that these bullets were not suitable for high velocity(3000 fps or higher), short range impact on game animals deer size and larger. My opinion simply based upon performance in use under these conditions.

With regards to anyone having their minds or opinions altered or changed by this thread, it was apparent from the beginning
of this thread this was not going to happen. Why would anyone volunteer to be ridiculed and subject themselves to vulgar rudeness?

I do agree with your comment, "I actually would be interested to hear some REAL experiences on the �smaller calibre partitions not living up to thier reputation as well as the larger ones�. Apparently those that have such experience have
left, or don't see any point in sharing their experiences.

With regards to those who clamor for 'science' and 'statistical analysis', there is some excellent science available regarding this topic. It is typically found in books, articles dealing with
"terminal ballistics". Some early examples would be P.O. Ackley's vol II, Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders, "Gun Shot Wounds", by Col Frank T. Chamberlin, pg48, as well as Julian Hatcher's, "Notebook". There are also a variety of experiments conducted regarding velocity, calibers, bullets, and bullet penetration which offer insight.
A rudimentary knowledge of physics would also significantly contribute to the understanding of, and level of discussion on
what happens to the bullet after the firing pin strikes the primer, and before it strikes the intended target.
Unfortunately IMHO, there appears to be less emphasis in understanding, and more emphasis in defending 'sacred cows'
and prejudices on this thread.

Travlr,

Despite having undergrad and graduate degrees in engineering, including a goodly number of elective hours in aeroballistics (was considering being a �rocket scientist� for a while there until interviewing and finding most of the positions offered were based in Southern California), I don�t get too deep into the alphabet soup game of SDs and BCs and WXYZs when it comes to shooting critters � I much prefer actual field observations. Same/same with most so-called �studies� which when examined with scientific objectivity are often by-and-large either biased, flawed in concept or practice, or are obsolete through technology advance.

As to this thread and changing of minds I guess that�s the weakness of the internet medium. Lots of folks with valid views and examples based on depth of experience clam up over the fear of ridicule you mention, or lack of confidence in their communications skills, while others offer no or negligible experience in sometimes convincing manner. It�s too bad we all can�t write like Steve Timm � he has a knack for describing his kills with all of the important details included, from critter, weapon, bullet, load, distance, angle, etc., right down to little things such as the weather, the animal�s state at the time of the shot, reaction, and on and on � yet it is enjoyable to read, and yes, I know for a fact posts such as his on bullets and loads HAVE swayed thoughts on this forum.

I think a lot of the vitriol on a thread such as this is a control group size issue. I don�t often read the gun rags but a buddy tore out and gave me a recent article by John Barsness where John says something to the effect that he is always leery of those who speak in absolutes of just the issues we�re discussing; that we�re all the beneficiaries/victims of our experience but that he often finds those who emphatically declare something �the best� or �the worst�, whether rifle, cartridge, bullet or whatever often have little experience of much else. I guess that could translate to the forum as nothing more than the wish of a poster who may be overall less experienced to participate in the discussion at hand because they are proud of their accomplishments and want to join in, and once they do feel that criticism of their choices (even if said criticism is of the choice itself and not at all to the poster) is somehow a slight, or on the other side of the issue those citing poor results with something feel they are being painted as unskilled or somehow to blame for the failure by those who have had good results. Too bad on both counts, because all experience is of value and hundreds of persons� singular experiences accurately combined would make a great database of reference.

Anyway, just rambling, though fwiw I�ve used by memory�s count 14 or so bullets in the 7mm rem mag and killed roe deer to eland with it with great success and the 140 partition at 3200ish is my favorite. Does that mean it�s the �best�? Maybe not. A sacred cow? Certainly not. It simply means that right up to a couple of months ago it was still shooting all the way through elk at 80 yards and deer a looooong way away and dropping their d*cks right in the dirt�



�and whether that means anything to anyone but me and the critters I dunno, but it�s my miniscule contribution to that database of experience on the partition as best I can offer and if it doesn�t match others� experiences I can�t help that, though as I said earlier I�d still like to hear them to add to MY knowledge�

Bart185,

Why don't you go fist your ass?

Obmuter (not Bart... edited for proper address)
Was that neccessary? It was not funny, nor clever, nor classy... He might deserve what you said, but do you? I am far from being put off by a little vulgarity if it serves a purpose, but that just leaves you looking the worse for the comment... IMO anyway...
art

I can't see your face, there is a bullet lying on the picture.

No wonder new people would hesitate to post on a topic. The sarcasm is unreal. Most guys in here are just looking for some useful information or to relate thier personal experience. Instead we have to put up with B......S.....! from a select few that think they and thier little circle has the only explanation for any scenario. If thier experience with ALL partitions is possitive, then state your point and get off of everyone else's case. I come here to learn and relate as do most others and not to bash and ridicule. So if my post didn't Convince, Sway, Con, or Woo you I'm glad because that was not my intention.

As a writer once wrote "No two watches go just alike yet each man goes by his own."

If I based ALL my choices on someone else's view, I would be nothing more than a sheep. That said, I'll just sit back and for curiosity wait to see who will take the first stab at me.

SPC

I see little variation based on modest bullet design changes. I see X bullets always exiting, but I have found many partitions. I like Sierra Pro-hunters because they are easy to place and I find them equal to the partition in performance... but I recover lots of them.

My choices are based on simple criteria... the bullet has to be accurate is primary... If deer hunting (and I hunt Kodiak deer more than any other, where I hear they have bears) I am not inclined to worry about the bullet composition or construction and the selection process is ends at accuracy. (Though I use X bullets in calibers smaller than 30 on Kodiak)

If I am shooting moose, bears or goats the X almost always gets the nod. Simple enough for me to handle that way...
art


Have you had a chance to try the newer triple-shocks? I am wondering what your experience (if any) with those are (pos/neg).

SPC
Only played with them in load development at the bench and really like them. I have zero doubt they will be great game bullets... in very large part because they seem to shoot very well for almost everybody, including me.

They will probably penetrate just like the standard X and that will complete the circle. But I can only relate the fact they shoot well in everything I have tried them in.
art

For those of you not fortunate enough to have recovered a partition after having fired it... here are a few pics of a 140gr Nosler Partition from a 7mmRemMag that killed a doe that was only 88lbs ... shot her from an elevated stand (15 feet up) at about 135 yards away... hit her thru the ribs on a semi-quartering shot, recovered the slug on the opposite side of her body just under the skin about 6" in front of the hind quarter...



I know I don't have super-vision, but it looks to me like this partition still has it's front and rear cores intact, yes? Also, this bullet retained 65% of it's weight. So, you can ask me what I think about partitions if you like, but anyone with a brain will already know the answer to that question.

Sitka,
What did I say? I just told him to piss off.I'm hot headed,not pornographic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

"The bottom crimp is still all there but the base is out of its .308 round to .302 X .315.
There are no dents in the shaft of the jacket."


I am not a blacksmith nor a metallurgist BART. No matter how flaming MY remarks may have been, You have stooped to a new low.

If the rear core was smashed, the jacket might have a litttle more damage than slightly out-of-round. I still dont think "smashing" is the same as "flowing".

I think some people here are letting their love and affection for the beloved and renown partition get in the way of what actually happened at the aft end of the bullet in question. After all, were not questioning ALL partitions anymore, just the one in the pic.

Bart,

I believe he took your signature line seriously.............

badger

Bart
My apologies!!!!!!!!!!!! I was looking at the classless obmuter remark to you and screwed up the salutation... Sorry!
art

So in which direction is this thread headed now? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Is there any chocolate cake left?<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

badger,
If he took my signature seriously,he's a bigger moron than I thought! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Sitka,
Thanks,I thought I said something wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Well, a group hug ain't happenin'!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sitka deer,

I am having a hard time deciding if you are actually referring to me or not. Thus far, you have referenced Obmuter, Bart, and obmuter, while I suspect you meant to write obmuteR. But I do want to challenge what you consider "class", so please if you will define "INGLER" on this thread for all to see.

The definition of ingler is available in any number of fine books such as the OED. I know exactly what the word means, but, as it has no connection to this thread, I will leave it at that.
art

"The bottom crimp is still all there but the base is out of its .308 round to .302 X .315.
There are no dents in the shaft of the jacket."


I am not a blacksmith nor a metallurgist BART. No matter how flaming MY remarks may have been, You have stooped to a new low.

If the rear core was smashed, the jacket might have a litttle more damage than slightly out-of-round. I still dont think "smashing" is the same as "flowing".

I think some people here are letting their love and affection for the beloved and renown partition get in the way of what actually happened at the aft end of the bullet in question. After all, were not questioning ALL partitions anymore, just the one in the pic.

Although bart has a hell of a lot more posts than I, he conducts himself in a manner of someone with, say 5 or 6 posts. (an immature newbie). If bart were to read the thread he would know that if he acted that way in a bar, he had better be tough. Not to mention, name calling will win you no friends around here. And who can forget the classic, if you start throwing chairs around here, youre liable to get one thrown back at you.

You partition sluts have become what you hate! Dont get me wrong, GGGGGGRRRRRRRREEEEEEGGGGGGGSSSSSSSSNNNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRR, I love partitions, but I still have not heard a good explination of, how an object larger than the crimp that holds it, can escape without causing the opening to be deformed to at least the size of the object that escaped it, Houdini anyone. If you cant picture what I am talking about, look at the pics and see the difference between the front of the bullet (smashed) and the rear (flowed).

Maybe we can find common ground as to call it a defect and not a failure.

Okay, enough. This, dear friends, is certainly not a manner in which grown people, men or women, should act, and most definitely not a manner in which we hunters should carry on amongst ourselves when the antis have enough to bash us with as it is.

Here's a suggestion for those of us who actually want to stay around here for a while and enjoy dialogue with others who can intelligently articulate an opinion, learn from each other, and act in a reasonably civilized manner.

There is an "ignore" option in your profile. Simply click on the users name that you wish to ignore and choose that option. I suggest that many of us use this option to "ignore" automatically one/two/several other person who find it necessary to post on this thread and website.

Just a suggestion, and perhaps one that some will take to heart.

PM me if you have a beef with me! If not,PISS-OFF!
It seems to me that you are only here to stirr up $hit!
I have no time for morons!

Your comments are well received. As I pause for a moment to ensure my limited objectivity, I'm curious, since you don't bother to investigate the alphabet soup as you call it, many of which BTW are extremely important with regards to bullet
extenal and terminal ballistics, but that's okay, you already stated you don't care about such things.
With regards to Mr Barsness' article, I DO NOT believe I've spoken in ABSOLUTE TERMS. Please correct me if I'm wrong!
Meanwhile, the top and bottom of what you're introducing to the discussion is quite simply addressed as you are correct!
That is to simply state, given any caliber/bullet combination,
obviously one works. Hence, any absolute discussion about this or that being better is in error! I totally agree. Now what was your point again? We were discussing a 300 SAUM firing a
165-gr Nosler Partition bullet. And given the original poster's
pics, it obviously experienced jacket/core separation! Again,
What is your comment?
I have gone out of my way NOT to declare any one bullet better than another! Maybe you missed that simple FACT!
Meanwhile, I have repeatedly made the point about matching bullet design characteristics with velocity. MAYBE YOU MISSED THAT ALSO! Personally I don't care what bullet anyone uses. But if one opts to use a bullet at a velocity at which it was not intended to perform, and said bullet has a MV greater than the bullet's range of intended performance, you are being reasonable if you expect that bullet not to perform accordingly to the mfr's advertising hype.
BTW, your education doesn't necessarily impress me. Mine is quite similar! Maybe different field, but not necessarily different commitment to science! I won't bore the audience with credentials. But they remain substantial. After all, most folks who read this don't give a darn about my education one way or another, only my relevance to THEIR shooting!
And that is what I'm about to offer! Polickal Correctness and
stupidity be damned as well! Oh and MAYBE I missed something, exactly what was it that I DECLARED THE BEST?
I NEVER DECLARED ANYTHING THE BEST! NOt powder, bullet, case, or cartridge! Can you read English and Understand the words? Regardless of YOUR shortcomings, those who are still reading this thread are, I think, seriously interested in finding a solution to the problem: What is a good bullet to use that they can depend upon! Hey, this is not about you or me, it's about the bullet. Geeeeze! Can anyone ever get over their ego?
Okay, let me get really stupid and fundamental, so that a monkey can understand! You have a rifle, it fires a cartridge,
with a particular load and bullet. Firing pin strikes the primer,
thereby igniting the powder, which sends bullet down the barrel. At some point, said bullet, regardless of design characteristics, ballistics, or anything else, strikes a 'target'.
WHAT IS THE RESULTS? AND WHY?

Do YOU possibly have more questions?

did you all hear what BART said, he has no time for HIMSELF. I continually try to stick to the topic at hand but aholes like BART must try and drag us back down the road of PERSONAL ATTACKS.

My ignore list grew again.............
badger

"looks to me like jacket separation, (the jacket is now seperate from the cores). "

"And given the original poster's
pics, it obviously experienced jacket/core separation! Again,
What is your comment? "

You see travler, I already tried to share MY expierences with jacket separation. You are correct about the ego's getting in the way. I swallowed mine a long time ago when conceded and agreed to use partitions and get rid of my "other" bullets on ebay. The only thing they can talk about is how well they work.

Personally, if I shoot an animal and it takes more than one shot, I have failed. If I shoot an animal in the guts and in the ass, I consider that a failure. The end result was stated many times that the animal eventually dies, but I would mourn for any animal that was not harvested in a humane and efficeint manner. The purpose of this forum should be to share both the good and the bad of how we go about harvesting animals so we can learn from one another. If I were to cripple an animal, due to improper equipment, I have failed. If my bullet hits a branch and hit the deer in the ass and only penatrates 4'', I have failed. If your equipment fails, you fail. I agree with travlers statements about velocity and jacket separation, his expierences are not that dissimilar to mine. I continually try to stick with the bullet in question, but MORONS like BART and GGGGGGGRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGSSSSSSSSNNNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR insist on personal attacks.

After seeing the photos and reading macrabbit's description, my first instinct was the bullet tumbled (as in end over end) and "spit out" the cores. And then keyholed the critter. Heck, the cores may have still been intact until the bullet "slapped" the deer. After (mostly) reading through 9 pages (9 PAGES?) of learned debate, I'm sticking with my initial hypothesis--the dang thing threw its cores. I don't think ANY bullet is designed to perform flips at hyper-velocity, so strange things can--and probably will--happen.

I generally view with a "degree of skepticism" claims about itty bitty bug hole groups, critters killed, and fantastic shots made--but I'll stick my neck out anyway (heck, everybody else has)...

I've killed over three dozen elk in my home state and a few other states/provinces. I started following my dad elk hunting as a kindergartner in the early 60's. Between family, friends and occasionally filling in as a guide for outfitter friends, I've witnessed another 50-60 elk killed. Most of the elk I've killed have been with a 270W, but also with 338-06, 30-06AI, 30-06, 7mmRM, 284W, and have bunch of other cartridges used on elk--up to and including the 378wthby. And, the last two years, I've shot 3 elk with a 243W and 100gr Partitions.

I have tried a variety of bullets (but far from all of them) in my rifles. I'm firmly in the "deep penetration" camp--as opposed to large frontal area. I thought X Bullets were the answer to my prayers when they first came out, but accuracy issues aside, sometimes they wouldn't expand, sometimes they shed their petals, and ended up punching a pencil thin hole through the critter. Currently, I think the Partitions perform somewhat more consistently across a wider spectrum of velocities. So for now, I am back with the good 'ol Partitions. I may be wrong here, there may other bullets out there that do better. Also, the Partitions seem to be more consistent (not perfect--just somewhat more consistent) across a wider range of velocities than other bullets I've tried or observed. It seems to me Partitions of higher sectional density in a given caliber appear to be perform more consistently/reliably than Partitions of lower SD.

Two of the elk I killed with the 243W were at virtually "point blank" range (less than 60yds) and broadside, and the bullets passed through. The third elk was heavily quartering away at about 190 paces. The bullet entered just behind the last rib and lodged in the off shoulder. My stepson shot his cow this fall with a straight-on shot in the chest. I recovered the bullet lodged at the back of the stomach (my stepson thought I was a sick person to be mucking around in the stomach of an elk). Both bullets looked just like their big brothers usually do--the front portion of the core (mostly) wiped off and rest of the bullet intact. I agree with Mule Deer's assessment of how and why Partions perform the way they do, it just took me 10-15 years to figure it out (duh).

Having said that, I'm getting ready to load some 150gr .277 Partition Golds--we shall see if this rather complicated bullet (two cores, a partiton, and a steel cup) will be accurate. I also gotta try some of the TSX's, everybody is saying they are waaaay less finicky than the X's--and there is no core to spit out of the monlithics!

Casey

No PM yet!
No balls?

No balls, better than no brains. You picked a fight with me, you jerk , not the other way around. You see, BART, unlike you I have nothing to hide. I am not afraid to PM you, but I see no point in it. You are truly a troll in the strongest sense of the word. I am trying to stick to the origional topic at hand but you and greg snyder come in at the end of the debate and start name calling. where have you been? I have continually tried to refrain from personal attacks and petty name calling but morons like yourself drag the thread down to the depths of your limited intelligence level. If you have a problem with me all you have to do is say it here in front of everyone. So far, I feel your remarks have detracted from the meaning of this thread and YOU are the... disturber. If you want to act like a troll, keep me out of it.

Edited for language.

I see we have a new member. welcome to the fire. BART got his tail kicked at the 264 win mag thread, https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/437561/page//fpart/all/vc/1 , so now he's here trying to act like he knows something.

This is amazing,I've posted 5 times,including this one,on this subject. You have focused some anger towards me and I offered to talk directly to you,you declined.
I've had another member on this board post an aireal photograph of my neighborhood,post my wifes name,dig up old ads on GunsAmerica,call me out on everything that I posted. Hell,obmuteR told me to fist myself. But you are the biggest jackass that I've seen yet, on this board! You are a child and I'm done with you.
You probably feel like that you have to have the last word on this,I understand. Now piss off!

Mouse gun I'm curious. That deer you claimed to have shot with your new partitions, which state/province was it in. I have never been anywhere with an open season in March. Did it still have both its horns, or was it a doe with a fawn in it.

Mouse gun I'm curious. That deer you claimed to have shot with your new partitions, which state/province was it in. I have never been anywhere with an open season in March. Did it still have both its horns, or was it a doe with a fawn in it.

dude, that was, like, in december when I posted about my first partition kill. It was a doe. I dont care to tell anyone where I live or hunt as you people hate me and I dont want to have someone form an opinion of this part of the world just because of me.
BART, you are a moron. You came on and told me to ____off and I am supposed to be " nice " to you. Dont go away mad BART, just go away. From what I've seen you are a troll we would be better off without you around here.

Travelr--

Never thought I'd post again on this thread, as imagined it would have fallen of its own weight (lots of lead and other metal weighing it down) into some crack long ago.

But when I saw it had gone over 200 posts I had to see what was happening. Now I am curious about your lousy luck with Nosler Partitions at impact velocities around 3000 fps or even less. I am not trying to be facetious but asking: You say they disintegrated completely. As in varmint bullets breaking up into tiny little flakes?

The reason I ask is that I have shot a great many Nosler Partitions into a lot of animals, and also seen quite a few others used, some at tremendous impact velocities. I have never encountered such performance even at 3000+ fps. Probably the worst-case scenario was big 6x6 elk that took a 180 in the shoulder at 50 yards from a .300 RUM factory load. There wasn't much left of the front half of the bullet, but the rear held together and traversed the chest at an angle, ending up under the skin on the far side. The elk did not survice for long.

Also once shot a mule deer frontally at 30 yards with a 140 7mm started at 2900+. Found the bullet in a rear ham, perfectly expanded.

Just would like some more specifics from you, as your experiences differ so much from mine.

MD

MD,

Are you really sure you want to go here again? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks MD.
I forgot to post that I think that Travlr's descriptions seem so odd that we might be dealing with different definitions and interpretations, beyond just different expectations.

BTW, Travelr, you mentioned the pond- are you more than 3000 miles from my home in California?

------------------------------

I know the answer to the partition failure!!!!!! It should put everything here to rest, once and for all!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mousegun or anyone else who had a partition failure, you simply got a bad batch of bullets! It happens with all bullet manufactors including Nosler.

What happens is the employees get burned out doing the same repetive tasks every day. Oh, management tries to move em around to alleviate boredom but that only goes so far. Ole' Joe is thinking about the upcoming Friday and trying out his new 4 stroke Honda outboard and all the trout he is going to catch. Yea, he is long overdue for a lunker brown. Oops! Let that last batch go by without re-checking his settings, aww what the heck, QC will never know! Man, this Friday's paycheck is going to be good..........and so it goes in the life of a person who works in production. The fun and exciting dept is R&D! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So its that simple, ya'all received a bad batch of bullets! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And these bullet makers don't talk about bullets all day either, thats just too boring........... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

Mule Deer,

3000 is sort of snail pace...130 part's come ot of my .270WBY about 3400-3450 depending on the lot of R25 I am using, they may be failing, I dont know for sure I have never found one inside of anything, just big exit holes and dead animals that the insides looked like they have swallowed grenades.

Lefty

I agree with you. But when I'm paying "premium" prices for "PREMIUM" BULLETS.................that excuse doesn't cut it.

I don't consider it an excuse but just the way things are with mass produced products. It ain't a perfect world..................

MtnHtr

Would weighing the bullets (and reloading the one that weigh the same) solve this?

Doubt it, but then again I'm not a bullet technician nor an expert, just a schmuck (grin). If you post your question on this web page , you should receive an educated answer.

Keep in mind, there are dissenters of every bullet maker out there.

MtnHtr

===

Leftycarbon--

Thanks for the info. Sounds like if they are disinegrating into Nosler shrapnel, the shrapnel is at least blowing out the other side of the animal.

By the way, I was talking IMPACT velocities, not muzzle. Even when started at 3450, your 130's are down to 3000 before they get to 150 yards. Would appreciate hearing about the results of any shots 100 yards or closer....

MD

MD

Havent shot anything under 200 yards. The longest was the moose which was a lazered 360+ through the ribs so they didnt hit anything really solid. Elk through the ribs, mountain goat did break one shoulder but exited, and the deer were all in the 200-300 yd. range. One might have stayed inside a mule deer that was facing me at about 200 yards. The insides were a mess and it was so cold that we didnt spend much time looking for bullets. I also used the XBT and hevent found any of those. I almost pulled the trigger on a large moutain grizzly in BC. He was about 125 yards away and I was a little nervous about shooting him, but a big part of that was the $5000 trophy fee plus the $2500 or so royalty fee charged by BC. Just couldnt find the strength to pull the trigger! At the time it was loaded with XBT's so I believe it would have done the job. At the ranges of most of these shots my velocities were down to reg. .270 and we all know thats not even adequate for large pronghorn. Intrestingly I used a .338 with 210 & 250 partitions for years and found several of those against the far side hide of different critters.

Thanks,

Lefty

I have yet to recover even one Nosler Partition from a deer out of different rifles. I've seen the pictures others have offered and they look swell, but I may or may not have one of my own to show in my lifetime. I don't care. I WANT them to go through. And they do. So...?? Call me a happy camper.

Strange things happen on occasion. Two of the oddest I've ever seen were using ordinary 150 gr. bullets out of my .300 Win Mag at close distance (under 100 yards) and I've used 165's or heavier ever since if I've stayed with factory level (or higher) velocities.

Thats freaky! I use 150gr partitions in my 270 wby. I have never seen one do that, but I have only recovered a few from the deer I have killed with them over the years. I would not give up on them yet.

Thanks, Lefty.

Am still waiting to hear from Travelr on how his Partitions broke into tiny pieces when impacting animals at 3000 fps.

I suspect what he's actually talking about is the front end disintegrating. This happens a lot with Partitions, because it's the way they were designed to work. John Nosler told me this himself a number of years ago. He always believed both in penetration AND the quicker killing effect of mini-shrapnel.
These days, of course, many judge bullet performance on how much weight is retained.

I was in my favorite sporting goods store last fall when a young man came in with a Nosler Partition he'd pulled from an elk he'd killed. He held it up and started bitching to one of the guys behind the gun counter about the terrible performance, how he expected better out of ammo costing $35 dollars a box. Evidently it was from one of the new short mags.

The bullet appeared to be fine to me, a typical Partition with front jacket folded back over the rear two-thirds of the bullet, which was a perfect cylinder. The guy behind the counter asked how far the elk went after the shot. Thius turned out to be less than 50 yards.

In short, the young man with the bullet was inexperienced. Not only that, but he'd bought the line that the new short mags somehow kill far better than anything ever previously invented, so they should drop an elk in its tracks, every time.

MD

BINGO, Mule Deer! Spot on!

For as long as the Partition has been out and used so extensively (and successfully) there still seems to be a misunderstanding among many regarding what it was designed to do.

The frontal portion will blow at "high velocities" under different circumstances, creating a very high initial damaging effect. The remaining portion of the bullet is likely to STAY ON A MORE DIRECT COURSE through the animal than many other bullets I've used of more conventional design, initial sectional density being equal. If there's anything I don't like, it's a bullet that decides to deviate from an intended path (not that it can't happen anyway sometimes).

I'm sometimes amazed at how 3 or 4 people can look at the same set of circumstances regarding bullet performance and have so many differing views. Someday I might write about some of these experiences, but as long as Mule Deer is warmed up <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I maybe don't have to. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'd rather read his stuff than write my own. So, go ahead, annoy him some more. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That is one of the primary reasons I keep going back to Partitions.

Casey