Fallacies, fantasies, and our big game rifles

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I'm getting to the age where fantasies, and fallacies, concerning our big game rifles are getting pretty old. How long did I indulge myself in these things ? How much did it cost ? I'm not going to tell you. But, I am going to tell you what I had to learn the hard way. First, which catriage is best ? There are only three classes of big game cartriages; (1) the .243, and it's relatives; (2) the 308, and it's relatives; and (3) .375 and it's relatives. All the rest of the discussions are nonsense. I remember an article by the late Jack O'Connor. He told a story about a recent trip to Africa. One of them carried a 7X57. One of them shot a .280 Rem. And one of them used a 7 mm Rem. Magnum. His conclusion was that the animals shot with the 7X57 might have taken one, or two, steps more than those shot with the 7 mm Magnum. He couldn't tell the difference in the wounds made by either of them. Recently, we've had our own JJ Hack state that he stopped using the 300 Weatherby, and went to the 30'06 because he couldn't tell any difference in the effectiveness of the two, unless the range was over 350 yds. Nobody challenged him on this. We were too busy giving him a hard time because he had the gall to tell us that energy figures were worthless when comparing big game cartriages. Everybody, except me. JJ has seen more critters shot than I can imagine, I'm sure. But, I've done enough of them to know that a good bullet is far more important than the cartriage. And the guy behind it is even more important. Can he shoot ? How well ? Does he practice ? I don't mean going to range and shooting off of a bench. I mean shooting from field positions, under pressure. I've got lots of friends who shoot magnums. One of them we'll call Bob. Bob hunts elk with a 7 mm Mag. But, when he hunts Mule Deer, he carrys a .25-06. Why ? He shoots a .25-06 much better than a 7 Mag. I think he'd be much better off with an '06 than a 7 Mag. In fact, I'll go so far as to say he'd be better off with his .25-06 than his 7 Mag. when hunting elk. But, I can't tell him that. I wish him luck. He'll probably need it. This isn't all. I'll discuss rifle design, scopes, and long range shooting in other posts. This one will do for now. What do you think ? E

Eremicus,Good post, and a great point. The effectiveness of a given round is determined by the guy holding the gun, assuming that the round is even remotely suited to the game being pursued. I have always thought that these 270 vs 280 vs 06 debates were a bunch of BS. In your rather broad general classifications, the cartridges that comprise your categories will all be within a few hundred fps of one another at a given bullet weight. What does that truly translate to? Nothing more than some minor variations in the maximum point blank range. So that means that a 300 WM will give me a substantially longer point blank range than the 308 or 06 with the same weight bullet, right? What does that really get me in the field? Let's compare the 308 and 300 WM using the same bullet. I ran the numbers using Hodgdon's published maximum velocities for a Nosler 150 gr Partition with a BC of .387. I assumed a rather generous 10" kill zone for my calculations. All calculations were done using Point Blank ballistics software (available for free at <A HREF="http://www.HuntingNut.com)." TARGET=_blank>www.HuntingNut.com).</A> The results:Out of the 308 (with a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps) the maximum point blank range is 344 yards. Even at 400 yards the bullet is only 12" below the line of sight.The 300 WM is a lot better, right? You decide. The maximum point blank range (with a muzzle velocity of 3200 fps) is 383 yards. A gain of 39 yards over the 308. Plus, it will take the 300 WM the whole way to 450 yards before it is 12.5" below the line of sight. A net gain of 50 yards, at best, over the 308. If your curious, the 308 is still only 18" below the line of sight at 450 yards.Ah, but what about energy? At 400 yards, an arbitrary distance that I chose, the energy of the 308 with the 150 gr Nosler Partition is 1400 fpe. The 300 WM retains 400 additional fpe to clock in at 1800 fpe. I doubt that most mule deer or elk or antelope really care whether they get hit with 1400 or 1800 fpe, and I am willing to bet that either is sufficient remaining energy to drop the animal at 400 yards, IF the bullet is in the right spot. I have seen this first hand on several occasions. Several years ago, four of us went to Wyoming to hunt mule deer. We drew Region F general tags, and hunted the National Forest and BLM land along the South Fork of the Shoshone River. One guy took his dad's super flat shooting magnum, because he thought that his 30-06 wasn't flat shooting enough for the wide open spaces of Wyoming. Another took the rifle he had hunted with for years - his 308 Browning BLR with 3X9 on top of it and using factory ammo. The guy with the BLR made a shot with his 308 that impresses me to this day. He shot a nice 3 X 3 mulie above Cabin Creek. The distance was a good solid 350 yards (confirmed after the fact with a rangefinder). His factory loaded 150 gr bullet passed straight through the deer at that distance, taking out the heart and lungs along the way. We found the deer about ten yards from where it was hit. One shot, in the right spot, and the deer was down with a 308 at an impressive distance. We still kid him that he shot the deer at 50 yards and then ran to drop his backpack further up the hill before we arrived. ;-) Was it the gun that made this kill? No, it was good marksmanship that was a result of practice from field shooting positions. He made the shot from a sitting position with his arms resting on his knees - a shooting position that he had practiced all summer before the hunt. Plus, he shot at ranges other than 100 yards. We have steel plates on our range at random distance. These plates range in size rrom 8" to 12" at ranges up to 400 yards. Shooting at these plates from field positions for a few months prior to the hunt really made him aware of his rifle's capabilities. The guy with the super flat shooting magnum? He missed several deer over the course of the week. Those misses included one at less than 100 yards. The rifle never seemed fit him right and it was obvious that he was not familiar with it. Would he have been better off bring the 30-06 that he shot with all of the time? Without a doubt. Please DON'T take this as a 300 WM bashing post, or even one championing the 308 or 06 or any other caliber. I shoot a 300 WM, a 280, a 6.5/303 wilcat, several single shot handgun calibers, etc. I like them all, or they would have been sold long ago. Which one is the best on any given day afield? The one that I am the most comfortable with. That's the one that I have recently been working out a load for. I have spent three days a week on the range with it over the past three months. I have had it apart, inspected, cleaned, and tweaked it to give me the best possible performance. THAT'S the gun I need in the field, NOT the one thats been in the gun cabinet for the past year that MIGHT give me a 50 yard perforance edge on paper. ------------------ Stush[This message has been edited by Stush (edited March 30, 2001).]

Thanks, Stush. More good points. E

E and Stush, Enjoyed your posts, and agree completely. Hope this doesn't upset owners of the magnum types, as 39 extra yards may well be worth any minor inconveniences to them, and many are not significantly handicapped by the added recoil, etc. I'm sure that if more hunters clearly understood the Big Picture, as you have presented it, they might also understand why some of us still find legitimate use for cartridges such as the .35 Rem. and .30-30 Win., where the vast majority of shots are taken at well under 200 yards. Imo, if a chosen rifle/cartridge combination is suitably accurate and powerful for the game pursued, it need not be maligned just because it is not at the cutting edge of high technology. If carrying that rifle adds to the pleasure of the hunting experience, why condemn it? A little more tolerance for the views of others seems a good thing.

Very nice post, not everyone can say it. -- no

Eremicus You make a bunch of good points which I have been coming around to, of late. One point though, your first two groups of cartridges are one and the same. The 243 is just a necked down 308. Must mean you really believe in it. art------------------ Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

I was just being combative. What I should have said is the 30'06 family. That would get more agreement, but sometimes it's fun to argue. E

Ok, I'll play devils advocate, even though I must agree with the premise.I like my magnum. I didn't always, and should have started with a .308, or similar, but I've grown used to it, and may finally be approaching the point where I can appreciate the advantages of it. With good shoulder pads and synthetic stocks, I think the 'reasonable' magnums (hows that for a subjective qualification?) are very shootable for the majority of hunters. I know it doesn't kill any better. Heck, the swedes use the 6.5x55 on moose. But, they don't hunt the same woods with brown bears, either. I'll never look down on somebody elses cartridge choice 'cause it aint as big as mine, but I'll keep my .300 win, thanks.Back to you [Linked Image]

John

I'm not "anti-magnum" per se. I do believe that they are not anything like what many would have us believe. Their big advantage is more power beyond 300-350 yds. But for that, one pays a high price. If your comfortable with the extra recoil, rifle weight, and blast, go for it. Some have found that it isn't worth it. The US Army, for instance, had their M24 Sniper rifles built to accomindate the .300 Win. Mag. by simply rechambering them, and opening the bolt face. When they tried to make them work, they discovered it wasn't practical. First, they couldn't get the accuracy, at 800-1300 yds., that they needed. Second, the ammunition for the .308 was improved to allow better long range performance. And lastly, the guys shooting it found it to require a lot more work for almost no real gain. So, they continue to use the .308. My basic thrust is that the bullet you use is far more important than the cartriage that propels it. When you start trying to hit critters beyond 300 yds. you need good range info, and you must consider the wind. Magnums do shoot closer than standard rounds, but you must still make adjustments when shooting at longer ranges. More on this later. E.

E, Stush, et al. : Don't say that! Be quiet! Do you have any idea what will happen to the gun trade, not to mention the magazine trade, if Mr./Ms. General Public figure out that they just don't need another rifle?Stop pestering everyone with real hunting observations. You're upsetting marketing spin here that's older than all of you! Put those .308s and .270s down and learn to shoot the RUMs like a real hunter. Can't put 'em in the target with those rifles? Heck, just buy our latest issue. We'll be glad to tell you how. My fingers are in my ears, Talus (.270 shooter)

Hey wait a moment, are you telling me that Joe Bigbrain the world renouned gun scribe is full of heated air? Are you saying that I, me the the hunter of all big game animals in my dreams does not need the new Loudboomin earsplittin 719 double magnum. why that is nonsence I make all my shots at over 600 meters,I'm hip to the new world ways, and I never miss. I also must have that new high dollar german/swiss/austrian scope. The gun rags say they are the best I'll give all my old Leo's to the Salvation Army. Gee wizz this years new gun combo will only set me back 3 grand, oh what the heck baby child can go another year with out gettin that hear operation. Gotta go back to flippen them Big Macs, breaks over.Bullwnkl's next door neighbor.I never miss.Who do mags write their script too? My neighbor?Bullwnkl.

OK. I suppose I'll also post from the magnum users perspective. It always seems like the premise behind these standard/magnum discussions is as follows - #1.) The magnum user thinks that he "needs" the extra energy produced and #2.) The magnum shooter uses this extra energy to make up for poor accuracy. In essence, using the power of a magnum to compensate for the inability to place the bullet where it needs to be. These are both rather large misconceptions.It's been said in this string that no matter what is used (magnum or standard) to some extent everything needs to be doped for wind and drop. True. Through practice, this is relatively easy to do at average distances, but with farther ranges, it becomes simple guess work. More so with some cartridges then others. The least that a shooter has to hold over for drop or hold into the wind for drift lessens the amount of guess work involved. Here's where the offered trajectory advantage of a magnum comes into play. It's been argued to sneak closer, that the skill of stalking is a lost art. Great idea, in theory, but anyone who's hunted the open MT plains knows that the stalk of an already shot-shy, suspecting Mule Deer buck is no option. So you do two things. You either purchase the cartridges that can successfully make the shot or you watch your hunting season pass by, hoping something comes within 250 yds (good luck). Not my kind of hunting. It's also been said that there is no real difference between point blank ranges of 344 yd. and 383 yd. I wonder how many of us, unaided by a rangefinder, could properly guess ranges at these distances. The difference between 144 yds and 183 yds may be insignificant, but you add 200 yds to those distances and its night and day for most. Miscalculation of 20 yds. at this range for guns that aren't capable equals missed shots or worsem ... wounded game. I also don't buy into the premise that the animal doesn't know weather it's being hit by 1400 or 1800 ft. lbs. of energy. How the heck do we know this? Who among has the device that measures this? None of us. There's simply no way of telling what specific energy level is needed to do a given job. Hell, .22-250's have killed everything this continent has to offer. Would we then argue that it's plenty for elk & bear at 300 yds? Some may, but I certainly wouldn't. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean it's the best medicine for the task at hand. With that said, I find it beneficial to error on the side of caution and have the extra punch, if only for that one single time when it proves itself handy to have in the field. Back to the misconceptions, I think that the bottom line is, magnums can be shot just as accurately as "any" standard offering, and with accuracy being equal, there's just to many advantages that my magnums offer me not to use them. You can certainly shrug off the extra power, the faster velocity and the trajectory benifits as unnecessary. Many do. But the fact still remains, the advantages exist. If you choose not to use them, that's certainly your privilage and I'd not hold a single thing against you for choosing not to. Later. >> klallen

Since my name was brought up here, by others. I will post something to be certain what my feelings and opinions are is clear. I own two rifles, the 30/06 and the 375HH(a magnum) I had a 300 weatherby for many years though. The difference in the 300 weatherby and the 30/06 to me was as stated above about 50-70 yards in effective trajectory. and within the fist 350 yards of range nothing in killing power. I say this after taking at least 100 big game with the 300 mag some at embarrasing distance. Will the game know the difference between 1400 and 1800 FPE? not that I can see. both bullets into the chest at 300 yards kill equally. However a standard construction bullet from a 30/06 will out penetrate the same bullet at 100 yards from a 300 mag most if not all the time. I swapped out the 300 mag for the 30/06 years ago. I have never noticed any, even tiny advantage in shooting the 300 mag. In all honesty I load the 30/06 pretty hot and shoot 165 grain bonded core premium bullets. My rifle is not far from some factory loads in the 300 mag. But it's still a 30/06. If I had the 300 mag my loads would have to be hot(reduced loads don't work well in mags) and I would have to use the 26" barrel instead of the 22" barrel I have now.As far as the difference between 340 and 380 yards being known, I can't argue that I sure cant do it. But is it that much of a worry within the reality of hunting? My 30/06 drops 11.5 inches at 350 yards with a 250 yard zero and a 3" high 100 yard point. It's taped on my stock and easily seen to check on when in doubt. I have in the past shot game pretty far. But by doing so I hope I can teach or persuade others to rethink this. Unless you have shoot thousands of rounds at long distance and are well practiced like our old buddy Big Stick then shooting over 300-350 yards is unrealistic. Just think about all the possible things that can happen when you turn losse a bullet at that distance. How many things can happen to give you the desired result? Only one thing! A good solid hit. Yet anything else that happens will ruin that one single good thing is it worth it? Lets say you have the magnum, without a range finder you see an animal at 440 yards and your gun is real flat shooting to 390 yards does the magnum allow the shot over the 30/06? you still have the same problem with or without the magnum and with the distance judging. All it does is give you errors at greater distance and the scale moves further out. How is that a good idea? For realistic hunting and shooting at 300-350 yards which is still way to long for 90% of the guys out there the 30/06 is as good, not better or the "BEST" or all you need or the king of the hill. It's just works and works well. I have had them both and used and seen used lots of clients rifles. I can't see the advantage anymore. That is why I went back to it. The 300 mag in a long case other then the 300 win mag makes a difference with bigger heavy bullets like 200 and over. They can really be launched with high velocity and flat trajectory. They have an advantage over the 30/06. However that is why we can buy a 338 win mag! I'm not anti magnum, I am a realist and understand the distance factor with these rifles and have a very high respect for game. I have never wounded or lost a big game animal in my life. That only comes from turning down all but the sure thing. I don't see many sure things over 300-350 yards, not in my lifetime!jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

I generally only hunt deer and elk, but I have had the good fortune to be able to hunt deer in seven and elk in five states over the past 40 plus years. Although I have killed with a 270, 30-06, 30-30, 444 and few others, I have used primarily throughout my hunting career 308s and 300 Wins. I would be hard pressed to say that I could really discern the difference in the results of shooting an elk or a deer with a 308 or 300 Win. However, to JJ's point, I am extremely confident that by switching to premium bullets (Nosler Partitions) 10 years ago that the elk I have shot are anchored and die quicker with both of these calibers. Although it is too early in the process to say for sure (1 elk, 3 deer and 1 antelope), I started using a Whelen last season, and I am of the mind that there is a noticeable 35 caliber hammering effect on animals. In my limited world of hunting experience, shot placement, premium bullets and caliber size are much more important than magnum horsepower. CP.

JJHACK >> I do believe that we have just hit on the main difference between the competent standard cartridge user and the competent magnum cartridge user. The typical standard shooter believes that the 275 - 350 yd. shot is long and risky. The magnum user views the 300 - 350 yd. shot as common place and prepares himself for just such hunting.I have set a limit for myself as far as distances that I will take a big game animal. This distance is based on the cartridges that I use and my ability to accurately use that round. If a condition arrises that renders my tools insufficient to guaranteeing me a riskless shot, then that shot is certainly passed up. I have no problem passing on game. With that said, it's easy to see longer range shooting requires "something" extra. That something is simple ballistics. I could really care less about energy or hitting power when distance shooting. Trajectory is the primary concern. If you've got the trajectory, big bullets are moving fast and the power needed will take care of itself. All cartridges offer ballistics to some extent. Some are more functional at longer ranges then others. While you have choosen to drop the .300 WbyMag for the '06 to match your hunting application, this move would be perposterous with regards to the conditions that I see year in and year out each hunting season. The '06 "would" function, but how well? Questionable, especailly when consideration is given to the options that are available today. Your 11.5" drop at 350 yds. basically means your holding well off of the kill zone on deer sized game in order to make a shot at that distance. Totally unacceptable for my shooting needs. When zeroed at 250 yds., the worst drop that I expect at 350 yds is 6", and that's a bit much. Wind drift NO worse then 3" at that distance in a 10 mph wind. With these requirements set, I don't have to consider holding off the kill zone to make a successful deer sized kill at 350 yds. and a little further. This eliminates most risk factors that would exist when adjusting for standard cartridge drop and wind drift. Last years alone, 5 bucks were taken at ranges measured 345 yds. and better (yes we use range finders, guess work is not an option with long range shooting). We also value and respect that which we hunt and "lost game" is not part of the vocabulary. All the tools we use eliminate guessing. Rangefinders for exact distances and appropriate cartridges to complete the shot. Now, this distances are posted to neither boast nor brag. It's just a note on the conditions that we regularly face when hunting. Would an 06 have worked ... yes. Are there things that are more appropriate for this type of hunting? Most certainly. TOTAL preparation with a magnum offering makes 350 yd. kills (and farther) an easy and humaine proposition. Later. >> klallen

Bull, kl, others: Please forgive me as I like to poke fun at sacred things and am both contrarian and suspicious by nature.I know as well as I'm sitting here that there are many "magnum" shooters here that shoot well at paper and game, and who get the most out of their equipment. My hat's off to them/you. Honest.I'm sure you'll agree that the avergage poster here is probably at the top of the heap in hunting and shooting ability compared to the general shooting public, those throngs who buy magazines (like I do) and keep gunmakers in business. Heck, most of the guys here make their own guns anyway!To the average shooter -- please give me some liberty with this definition -- shot placement is easier with smaller guns. I'll just hold that to be self evident. For them large calibers are a disservice. I'm not talking about exceptions, I'm talking about rules/averages. I know there are plenty of guys who can outshoot me using their .416s and myself with a .22 rimfire. And cheers for them! But if you take a .338 RUM and put it in the hands of most folks I hunt with, there are going to be a lot of wounded deer and discouraged people.Here's the crux of what I'm trying to address, and it's something at the heart of many a thread which ends in disaster:There are many elite shooters and hunters here. You know who you are, and that you posses some mixture of talent, passion, and resources which many others do not enjoy. You are also in the minority -- even here.When elite folks get together, there is a danger that what follows will alienate others in the group. In this case, "others" means hunters in general, as well as other posters.Please don't allow this to happen. If you are elite in your abilities, do your best to encourage others in the sport and not glorify yourselves. Non-elites (read I) need you guys. There's no other way we can grow. What do you want us to do, learn what we need from the hunting mags? We know where that will lead.You supershooters need others as well. Without other people whom you respect involved in your hunting lives, your experiences will grow hollow and meaningless. When it's all over the shared experiences will be the ones you treasure, even if you must share them by story. If you don't agree with me on this, or if you are quick to shrug it off, I ask that you think about it for a while.The "magnum" vs "non-magnum" debate is another of those places where elite shooters often are moved into defensive positions which harm the group as a whole. Again, I'm not saying this decay is taking place in this thread. It's not. This is just something I have been thinking about.I say that if you're good and you know it you should be able to take the high road in debate or discussion. That's not to say that you should allow statements to go unchallenged. There's a fine line here, and how you walk it determines how much knowledge and ethic is successfully passed on.Thanks for a fine thread. I hope the elite shooters and the average guys like me can use this forum for a better hunting experience. I know I have. Putting away the soapbox, Talus

Klallen, of the 5 bucks that you referenced in your post, how many were spotted from a rig or a boat before you and your partners started your stalk? Please, there is nothing wrong with this technique in eastern Montana, except in my view it is more shooting than hunting and it tends to stretch the distances a guy has to shoot. CP.

Hey CP >> The shots that I speak of are taken on a large plot of family-owned land smack-dab in the middle of a HUGE "No Hunting ALLOWED" farm and ranch spread. You have the benefit of the heavily wooded river bottom below and the heavily desired (at least by the deer) wheat and barley stubble fields above. You don't spot them and stalk. You plant yourself somewhere in the middle of this large expanse and scope the ridges and bottoms. There's no place to hid or stalk once the deer start to move. If you're to far away from where they cross the family land, you have no shot. Bottom line is, you shot from where you set up, and no matter how much you scout for their most common crossings and plan out the perfect spots to set up ambush, the deer rarely cooperate. The distances of shot are certainly stretched and quick kills (with no hunting posts all around) are the name of the game. That's what we deal with.Now CP, confusion's setting in. A few questions for you. What do ya mean this isn't hunting? Meats in the freezer and it requires the expense of a tag, no? To me shooting's done at the range in preparation for the hunt, hunting (regardless of where and how it's done), which requires shooting of course, takes place in the field with wild game in the sights. What we do is no more or less hunting then anything you do. Techniques may vary but the end result tends to be the same. Wheather you like to call it what it is or not, it's all hunting. I don't much agree with those that park it in tree stands by a man made feeder and wait for the deer to come within 20 yds for their "every" evening dinner. This to me is wrong. But is it hunting? To that fella in the stand it is. Just differnet ways to the same end means. Later. >> klallen

klallen. Well I see you have finally come a full 360 deg here and see this exactly as Emericus and I do. The difference between the 30/06 and the 300 mags is noticed only beyond 300-350 yards. Exactly what I said some time ago and evidently from your post an agreement!I was shooting today in Eastern Washington. A beautiful sunny day with a light breeze. I had my 30/06 and 375HH identical trajectories by the way. Other shooters had a single 30/06 Remington, and several rifles including 300 mags, one was my old (previously owned)300 weatherby. We set out targets at 100 yards. 250 yards, 300 yards and we set out blaze orange clay pigeons(250 yards) and gallon milk jugs filled with water out to 350-375 yards. The shooters all have 25+ years rifles shooting experience except my brother who does not own a gun but goes with me ofetn hunting.We took turns shooting the jugs, I was first. I missed the 350 yard jug by an inch or two low with my 30/06, second shot it exploded. Any big game animal would have been dead from either shot. Next guy shoots 5 times with the 300 win mag. Hits all around the jug but could not connect. These are all field positions not bench resting. The barrel was getting hot so the next guy shoots. Next guy shoots three times and all were low, He thinks something is wrong with the gun or ammo. He asks to use the 30/06 and we grant him the out of turn shots. He nails the 350 yard jug first try, then hit the 250 yard clay pigeon first try. Next shooter takes 3 more shots with a 340 weatherby. No water is leaking from the jugs! My brother shoots next with my 30/06 at the 350 yard jug. I had to draw on the dusty pickup a sight picture for him to understand hold over and the slight windage we needed to adjust for. First shot a very near miss. second shot blown up jug, third shot blown up jug. He hands me the gun and claims this is better than a video game!I shot the 375HH at a 250 yard clay pigeon and turn it to dust. The next shooter who was using the 300 win mag shoots five more times and never does hit the jug. I tell him to let me see the rifle. I load 3 shells in the magazine but none in the chamber. I tell him it's ready just click off the safety. He steadies the shot and concentrates and jerks the rifle off the rolled up jacket when he pulls the trigger. We all have a good laugh at him and hand him my 30/06. He shoots two jugs in the next two shots. Exclaiming that my rifle is the difference and that it is so fun to shoot because it has no recoil! This guy is also the typical guy we will read post after post from here about how recoil has no effect on him and he can shoot a 300 mag as good as a 30/06. On the way Home I quizzed him on this. He says now that he wants to get a Better recoil pad? But he still thinks the 300 is just as good. A dozen shots in total fired and never hit a jug with the 300 mag. 2 shots from the 30/06 both connect. You be the judge on that.Now the real intersting thing that happend on the trip. One of the guys shoots ballistic tips. When we went to clean up the jugs after we had finnished shooting one of the jugs was empty but had something rattleing around inside. Low and behold a ballistic tip bullets lead was inside the jug but the jacket had gone through! Another example of the pathetic penetration of ballistic tips. How sad that a 180 grain ballistic tip did not penetrate a 1 gallon jug of water at 350 yards!.jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Klallen, I have done a little stubble field shooting in my life and I appreciate some of the challenges that you described. However, it is not the same as dogging them out of the coulees, humping the Breaks or chasing them on public land in the Little Belts in my view. If you find satisfaction and reward in the way you take your deer, I am delighted for you. However, I would suggest to you that the vast majority of deer and elk in Montana are hunted under different circumstances than those that you encounter on your family farm, and I believe that there are significant distinctions between the two venues. Because I generally do not "hunt" deer in the wheat fields of eastern Montana, it may help explain why I am so indifferent about the need to pack a magnum. For the first time in my life, I had the opportunity to hunt out of a box stand over a feeder in Texas this past season. This experience had a hell of a lot more in common with hay field shooting than the hunting that I do in the Metcalf, the Gravelly range and the Yaak. Never the less, it was a kick in the ass and if I am invited back, you can bet I'll go. CP.

klallen,I believe that you have missed the point of my post and others. I stated at the end of my post, "Please DON'T take this as a 300 WM bashing post, or even one championing the 308 or 06 or any other caliber". I too shoot a 300 WM. I love the gun (a Ruger 77) and the caliber. When I hunt with a rifle, I pick it up probably more often than any other rifle that I own. I am no shrinking violet when it comes to taking long range shots. I have shot deer with this gun at ranges from 100 to 400 yards. It works wonderfully. I have also shot game out to almost 300 yards with a handgun. When I don't use the 300, I often carry a 280 Remington. I once shot a mule deer doe with the 280 at 375 yards. The bullet went straight through the chest cavity. She walked about three steps after the shot and dropped dead. She didn't seem to care that I shot her with the 280 instead of the 300. How much "deader" would she have been if I grabbed the 300 that day? With regard to the energy question, I respectfully ask if you would like to be hit with either 1400 or 1800 fpe through the chest cavity at 350 yards? I doubt that you would volunteer for either. And I respectfully submit again, with a shot in the proper place, that either energy level would be sufficient to kill any deer or elk walking the planet. Maybe I should present this another way. Could I convince you to agree that, at ranges up to 100 yards, the 30-30 with a 170 grain bullet at the maximum velocity possible would be sufficient for either mule deer or elk? I believe that most reasonable people would agree to that much. I would ask you to show me the deer or elk that could take a shot from a 170 grain 30-30 bullet through the vitals at 100 yards and survive. If we are in agreement on this point, let me now submit that the 30-30's 170 grain bullet at 2000 fps of muzzle velocity retains only a little over 1000 fpe at 100 yards. Why then, would you assert that 1400 fpe at 350 yards might not be sufficient but 1000 fpe is at 100? I agree with you that magnums can be shot as accurately as other rounds. No argument on that point at all. I believe that if you reread the start of this thread, you will see that we were attempting to make the point that most hunters do not need to rush out and buy a magnum to hunt with. The advantages of the magnums, and I will not argue that they do offer ballistic advantage, are insignificant if the hunter cannot shoot the rifle accurately. Again, I AM NOT taking the position that magnums cannot be shot accurately. My position is that most hunters need a significant amount of time and practice to learn to shoot them accurately. That is time that most will NOT invest. They would be much better served by shooting the rifle that they are already familiar with. Does that mean that they will pass up some shots? Absolutely. They are leaving those animals out there for you to shoot. ;-) You imply though, that it is not possible to stalk closer than 300 yards in the plains of MT. I haven't hunted there, but I'm guessing they aren't too different than the plains of WY? Please let me know if I am wrong. I certainly have seen some deer that you couldn't get that close to, but I believe that a good hunter can get themself within 300 yards on most occasions. How about the guides on the board? Care to chime in on this one? You must have hunted mulies on the western plains. Could you get a shot on a decent mule deer or elk for a hunter that told you "I can hit anything you show me within 300 yards"?------------------ Stush

Hey JJHACK >> What's this 360 degree stuff? I've always stated that I enjoy what my magnums offer me as far as long distance trajectory. I've never waivered on that. I would suspect we both know there's not much agreement going on here but ... You posted that with your '06, you "don't see many sure things at 300 - 350 yds". Here's where our differences lie. I'll repost an earlier comment to you -- "I do believe that we have just hit on the main difference between the competent standard cartridge user and the competent magnum cartridge user. The typical standard shooter believes that the 275 - 350 yd. shot is long and risky. The magnum user views the 300 - 350 yd. shot as common place and prepares himself for just such hunting".If you find this to be in agreement with what you've been posting, then OK, I agree with you. If you don't, then no, we must not be in agreement. I choose not to deal with the hold overs and the doping for wind that you seem to enjoy dealing with. Especially at the 350 yd. ranges we're talking about. Longer shots, certainly, but at 350 yds. I fully expect to be dead on. With your standards you can't expect the same thing, and that's no judgement on the standards. It's just a statement on what's physically possible for one cartridge and what's not for another. Simple as that. I choose my magnum offerings so "hold over's" don't come into play. As suspected, there's few if any agreements between us. Later. >> klallenHey CP >> Don't take this as an attempt to bicker. Only replying to your post, OK? We have certainly taken the opportunity to hunted the ridges, coulees, cuts and bottoms of the Little Belts many times, as well as those found in the Highwoods, Big Belts & Little Snowy's. Living in such close proximity to these moutain ranges, most everyone has. Also enjoyed hunts in the Rocky Mountain scene on lands near Glacier National Park and farther west of Great Falls towards Lincoln in the Helena National Forest. Also, close quarter river bottom hunting for big Whitetail just 12 miles west of Great Falls is a blast. I don't know where you've got the impression that the only style of hunting I've seen is "beanfield" type hunting in eastern MT. Maybe I misled you somehow. Although eastern badland hunting has also been experienced. Not much fun in my opinion. The winters are harsh and quite frankly, the sage raised deer don't taste that good, compared to those that are wheat feed. Anyway, the point being, I've hunted in all the venues that this state has to offer. I have yet to find one that I would rate more a hunting experience then the other. I got just as much pleasure from my 5x4 Muley taken at 135 yds. after an extensive stalk over the Little Belt hills and valleys in 1999 as I did with my 5x5 Muley gotten just this last year on the land previously described to you when he happen to show himself at 365 yds. distance. And yes, my magnum functioned just find on both kinds of shots. You may certainly have a personal preference, and I suppose I do too, but bottom line is hunting's hunting. Why complicate things by stating that a trip into the field now has to meet certain criteria to be classified as hunting; I don't play that game. There's just way to many other important issues, variables and conditions that need to be dealt with. Regards. >> klallen

Hey Stush >> I'll attempt to be as polite in my reply as you were in your post ;o). Here goes. I'm really not addressing you with my comments. Some of JJ's points just don't match mine. That's all. With that said, I'll answer each topic of your post as I get to them : "How much "deader" would she have been if I grabbed the 300 that day?" Never talked about the "dead is dead" issue. When talking long range shooting, energy plays little into my preparation. I'm addressing trajectory issues. "With regard to the energy question, I respectfully ask if you would like to be hit with either 1400 or 1800 fpe through the chest cavity at 350 yards?" I would personally choose not to get hit by either, but as a hunter, I'd error on the side of caution and prefer 1800 fpe transfered to the animal via a properly constructed bullet."Could I convince you to agree that, at ranges up to 100 yards, the 30-30 with a 170 grain bullet at the maximum velocity possible would be sufficient for either mule deer or elk?" Yes."Why then, would you assert that 1400 fpe at 350 yards might not be sufficient but 1000 fpe is at 100?" Never, in any of my posts did I state that 1400 fpe wouldn't be sufficient to kill. It was stated that, between 1400 and 1800 fpe, 1800 would be prefered for the same reason stated two questions above. "I believe that if you reread the start of this thread, you will see that we were attempting to make the point that most hunters do not need to rush out and buy a magnum to hunt with." Incorrect. If you reread the whole of this thread (not just the start) you'll see that the underlying attitude states that an '06 will perform to the same standards expected of a magnum offering. A generalized statement like that is horribly misleading. Besides that, I think we both know this is not true."My position is that most hunters need a significant amount of time and practice to learn to shoot them accurately." Is this not true regardless of wheather a standard or magnum is being used? Over the years, I've seen just as poor of '06 & .270 users as any magnum shooter. Is this more excuseable cause they shoot the light weight stuff? Or can this be attributed to the belief (like you have) that magnum shooters need to practice more to master their rifle then the standard shooter? You raise an interesting point. If your thoughts are correct, then it would stand to reason that magnum users would be more proficient with their rifles then standard users, because of the greater number of practice hours needed to achieve mastery of the gun. "You imply though, that it is not possible to stalk closer than 300 yards in the plains of MT." Please don't generalize my hunting conditions with the hole of MT. This is a mistake. For the SPECIFIC area that I described earlier, once you are set, opportunities to stalk are present with only a few possible deer crossing sinarios. Stalking is readily done when these present themselves. The rest of the time, all that stands between you and a 375 yd. shot is snow, a few blades of dead grass and possibly a couple mounds of 2" high prairie cactus. I am not kidding when I say that the stalk opportunity rarely exists on this land."I certainly have seen some deer that you couldn't get that close to, but I believe that a good hunter can get themself within 300 yards on most occasions." Again you reestablish my earlier point. 325 yd. shots to the standard user is perceived as long and risky, while the competent magnum user expects them and prepares heavily for just such occasion. One point, if I know that 85% of my shots are going to fall in the mid to long ranges, would it not be in my best interest to equip myself with something other than an '06, so that these shots are realistic?"Could you get a shot on a decent mule deer or elk for a hunter that told you "I can hit anything you show me within 300 yards"?" If these were the ranges that you had set for yourself, I'd certainly not take you onto the land that's been described above. Confidence at ranges a bit farther then that are required.Stush, the bottom line of my wasting time posting on this subject is based on the belief that an '06 can perform to the same standards as a magnum offering. That's it. Just answer me this. Does an '06, with a drop of 11.5" at 350 yds. equal a magnum offerings performance of a 6" drop at the same distance with both guns being zeroed at 250 yds? It's really a simple yes/no answer. It's not a question of weather a 180 gr. bullet from an '06 kills better or worse than the same bullet from a .300 RUM once it reaches the target. But from point "a" to point "b", does the '06 equal the magnum performance? NO. That's all I've been saying. Later. >> klallen

For the sake of the general discussion, I thought I would post the following: 30'06/180 Sierra @ 2756. Using max. Point Blank Range of plus/minus 3 inches, comes out at a zero of 223 yds., it's down 13.5 inches at 350 yds. The 300 Win Mag., same bullet @ 3059, same PBR zero is on @ 246 yds., and is down about 9 inches @ 350 yds. This amounts to a holdover difference of about 1.3 MOA. Let's not forget the wind. At 350 yds. your wind drifts, with a 10 mph crosswind, are 11 inches for the '06, and 9 inches for the 300 Mag. The recoil figures are as follows; '06 22 lbs.; 300 Win Mag. 31 lbs. Both out of 8.5 lb. rifles. My point is that both reguire some holdover, the difference being a whole 1.3 MOA. Both require wind consideration, if there is any. And the .300 Win. Mag boots the shooter considerably more than the '06. We can move back to 500 yds. if you like. The drop figures are 35, and 47 inches. The wind drift figures are 20, and 24 inches. So now the drop figures are 2.4 MOA. Impact velocitys are 2009 fps, and 1774 fps. Not much difference. How well can you estimate a holdover of 35 inches at that range ? What are you going to use as a reference point ? If your using target style elevation knobs, all the '06 user has to do is dial up another 2.5 MOA. Is a magnum really worth it to you ? It's your call. E

Eremicus,Stop that. If you keeping spewing facts all you are going to do is confuse people. :-) ------------------ Stush

Klallen,My response, and my last word on this, because it is turning into a p****** match at this point:1) "the bottom line of my wasting time posting on this subject"Sorry to waste your time. If it is a waste of your time, why do you keep posting? No one is forcing you to do so, are they? If you keep contributing to the dialog, please do not accuse me of wasting your time. Any time you choose to waste is at your discretion. 2) Your issue is with the assertion that "an '06 can perform to the same standards as a magnum offering. That's it. Just answer me this. Does an '06, with a drop of 11.5" at 350 yds. equal a magnum offerings performance of a 6" drop at the same distance with both guns being zeroed at 250 yds? It's really a simple yes/no answer. It's not a question of weather a 180 gr. bullet from an '06 kills better or worse than the same bullet from a .300 RUM once it reaches the target. But from point "a" to point "b", does the '06 equal the magnum performance? NO."If you are speaking strictly about trajectory (as you stated earlier), you already know the answer to this question, and it was a concession that I made in my original post. The magnum is going to be the flatter shooter at any given bullet weight. How significant is this this trajectory difference in the real world? IMHO, it is not significant for most shooters. Again, I believe that this is a point that we can agree upon. You state that you are not interested in compensating for the greater drop of the lesser round. That's fine. I submit that many people can do so quite adequately, and do so on a regular basis. 3) "Over the years, I've seen just as poor of '06 & .270 users as any magnum shooter. Is this more excuseable cause they shoot the light weight stuff? Or can this be attributed to the belief (like you have) that magnum shooters need to practice more to master their rifle then the standard shooter?"I do not believe that I have asserted that it is more difficult to shoot a magnum at all. I personally shoot the a 300 WM, and have shot my dad's 300 RUM on numerous occasion. I don't think that either is overly punishing. If I made the impression that magnums are too much for the average shooter, then I have not adequately conveyed my position. Let me try to state it as plainly as possible.I see guys walk through the door every day that have to have the newest, fastest rifle on the market. The want them because they read the current marketing spin that says that for some reason their old 06 or 308 or whatever is no longer adequate for their needs. If they want the rifle just because they have an interest in firearms or ballistics, like many here do, thats fine. In that case, they are very likely going to spend the time to work out a load for the rifle or find a suitable factory load and follow through to become proficient with it. What bothers me, bottom line, is when the guy who has been shooting his 270 or 06 well for years walks in and buys the super duper magnum and automatically assumes that he is now better equiped to hit the woods. That is not true - no matter what the trajectory, energy, velocity, etc. for the new gun is. He would be much better served by taking the rifle he knows and shoots well, not the new rifle that gives him a minor edge on paper. If you can shoot your magnums well, more power to you. Please don't assume that everyone can or wants to do so, and please do not overstate the advantage offered by them. I haven't made a kill with a magnum caliber that couldn't have been made by a lesser comparable caliber in the right hands. For the third time, "Please DON'T take this as a 300 WM bashing post, or even one championing the 308 or 06 or any other caliber". ------------------ Stush

It's funny. Long range target shooters use slower bullet with very high BCs. They can compesate for bullet drop very precisely--they know the exact range of the target and know the trajectory of their load. They do not know the exact wind effect, so they use a bullet that's affected by the wind as little as possible. When they have to pick velocity over BC, they choose BC. Many 1000 yd 300 mags shoot 220-240 grain bullets at 2700-2800 fps. I wonder if we should learn from them? Maybe if we want to shoot at long ranges, we should get rangefinders and pick heavy, slower bullets with high BCs.JJ,I'm not so sure the 300 Win (one of my favorites) has an advantage over the 30-06 past 300 yds, especially with the advent of rangefinders. I think the only place where a 300 mag has an advantage is when bullet velocities drop below the min required for decent expansion. If that is around 1800 fps (some bullets reliably open at 1400 fps), then a 30-06 is a 450 yd gun and the 300 Win a 600 yd gun, if you can hit what you are shooting at.Blaine

Morning Eremicus >> You speak as if I've been refering to the .300 WinMag as the magnum compared to the '06 in my posts. Nope. When I use the word magnum, in reference to .308 caliber, I'm refering to something a bit larger then the WinMag. If the #'s I've been posting look like those of a WinMag, I'd politely suggest that you take a closer look at my posts. These are not WinMag #'s. Eremicus, we can post #'s all day long and no matter how many we post we'll always come up with the same thing. Advantage magnum. Regardless of weather we compare stush's .300 WinMag at the small end or the extreme magnum offerings at the largest end of the .308 caliber. Still the same. Now, whether you consider these advantages to be insignificant, that's entirely your choice. It seems as though you'd have me believe that you choose your firearms based on the recoil #'s produced. While this is certainly a way to go, I tend to base a rifle purchase on other things. It's funny how we are seeing the same thing two different ways. You look at the performance advantages that do exist with even the relatively small .300 WinMag over the '06 as insignificant, to small to take seriously, no real advantage. And then you exaggerate the small increase in recoil to be so debilitating that this is your basis for purchase. I, and those in my camp, come from the opposite side. We look at the recoil #'s you seem to be so inconvenienced by (especially with the light hitting WinMag) as insignificant, to small to take seriously, no big deal at all, with any ballistical advantage easily welcomed.I am sorry I never really noticed your '06 #'s (was going on what JJ posted for his '06 #'s), but I've seen enough '06 data to know that, it really doesn't matter who's doing the reloading, performance is pretty much constant. JJ's '06 #'s are about the hottest that I've seen in an '06. Yours are not. Any performance comparisions would be worse for you then with my talks with JJ. That's kinda beside the point though. If it works for you then thats good enough. I just have a hard time with unrealistic comparisons. You can throw around '06 / WinMag comparisions all you'd like. Performance wise, factory loaded WinMag and a hot handloaded '06 may very well be similar. But there are things out there today that make the WinMag look small. I suppose these are the magnums that I was refering to in my posts. There are things that DO NOT require hold over at the ranges that we're discussing, when the '06 would. There are things that DO NOT require doping for wind drift, when the '06 would. That's all I've been saying. There are things that can be accomplished by magnums that are ballistic impossibilities in an '06. You can move back to 500 yds. (getting to the outer limits of my desired shooting distance, I might add), and the '06 falls even farther behind these big .30's. When comparing cartridges we should stick with the .30-06 / .270 comparisions. I suppose I would even give you the '06 / WinMag comparison. These are at least realistic. An '06 / upper end .308 cal. magnum comparision just doesn't exist. Already late for work. Will talk later. >> klallen

This argument could be reduced to the same debate between the 308 and the 30-06. These two are actually closer then the margin between the win mag and the 30-06. Most people recognize a difference between the -08 and the -06, why they cannot see that difference when going to the magnums is beyond me. The difference lies in the ability of a larger case to push heavier bullets to greater velocities or lighter premium bullets to very flat trajectories, or whatever combo you may choose. Whether to you the margin is, or is not, significant, it is still there as much as between the -06 and -08 or even the 30-40 Krag. This margin is only meaningful to those who have the ability to capitalize on it and want every mechanical advantage they can reasonably get for longer ranges, or for the use of heavier bullets with similar trajectories of smaller cases using lighter bullets. If your hunting style or capability cannot utilize a magnums performance, then why use it? But if you can benefit from it, then why not?The main advantage, though is in what AFP identified and that is maintaining the proper impact velocity for reliable bullet expansion, which I feel more comfortable with when it does not drop much below 2000 fps.This discussion has largely overlooked this most important point. A handloaded 300 Win. with 190 to 200 grain bullets will match the trajectory of a 30-06 with 165s but will hit with more authority and will retain more velocity at the same range for better bullet performance; and that is a real advantage.It seems though, that some people buy and hunt with magnums for the wrong reasons when in reality they would probably be far better served carrying an -06 that they can actually shoot and which provides more capability than what they can utilize anyway.Those that shoot the magnums well realize the advantages they offer just the same as those that prefer a 458 over a 45-70 for dangerous game.

klallen, As I understood this it was a conversation between the 30/06 and the 300 magnums. Not some rare or exceptional 30 caliber rifle your now speaking of. Maybe you should think about introducing your original concepts from the get go so it's easier for all of us to follow along with. Emericus posted factual and accurate data for the comparison. Then you come back with some exceptional 30 caliber magum data that is outside the whole topic of conversation. I personally don't get it anymore so I'll leave this to you guys to sort out as the next level will be a 50 caliber rifle necked down to .308 before this is over and I don't care to participate in this one ups manship BS any longer. It becomes very difficult to compare something "known" so something "unknown" which is exactly what you have pulled in this whole topic of conversation!As far as my 30/06 being too "hot" well I'm shooting 59 grains of IMR4831 with a 22" barrel using 165 grain bullets. Look it up it's not max. I always post honestly here and start with an honest and up front discussion. I don't change the deal half way through!jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

I like my 358 win, 300 win 30 gibbs and I like my 257 roberts, 25 06 Also. I like them all and will take any one of them on any give day. I trust them because they do there part when, I mine. Guns are like most people, until I meet them and we give each other a chance, then I know if we can get along. Now I have met a couple of guns I did not like because they abused me, we just did not fit well. Now in somebody else hands they are probably great. I practice so that I understand what my friend expects of me, how close, were, and the elements. If I answer these questions the gun will take care of its part.olefish

This type of debate always perplexes me. It seems that cartridges are a little bit like wrenches -- you pick the right one for the job but there is no sense in saying "this one is better than that one". After all, many cartridge's capabilities overlap. I've used everything from 22LR to 303British to a 375H&H and while some actions (ie, Browning) were not to my liking, the cartridges all went "bang" with the same satisfaction :-) Peace, RJ

Hey JJHACK >> You're something else, my man. Look at what you've posted in this string. You generalize through the entire conversation, '06 to .300 magnums, and then whammo, at the end, you get ****ed over something and say you were talking '06 / WinMag comparisons the whole time. Now, I don't understand where you're coming from.When you make a comment (repeatedly, I might add) that states "the '06 can perform just as well as the .300 magnums out to 350 yds", I would think it safe and practical to assume that you have taking into consideration the full array of mainstream factory offered .308 magnums. It was obvious from the very start of this conversation that you had not, yet you continued to hold on to your premise. You don't have to look far to find factory offered magnums the blow this view all apart. The .300 RUM (Remington, Winchester, Savage), .30/378 WbyMag (Weatherby) and 7.82 Warbird (Sako) come to mind and all are readily available to john q public. No rarity involved with these offerings. Now, which of these would not be included as a ".308 magnum"? I think you're getting a glimpse of my confusion with your extremely generalized statement. With the vagueness, I simply chose to comment on the .308 magnum that I know and work with, that being the 7.82 Warbird. In your generalization, you were focusing on the small stuff, I was looking at the other end of the .308 caliber class. This confussion can happen when nondescript, general comments are made. You posted about the .300 WbyMag at one point. Others mentioned the .300 WinMag. Yet all wraped up their posts with the same generalized statement, "'06's perform along side .300 magnums". If you wanna post next time that an '06 will perform along side a WinMag or even WbyMag, by all means, post that. How knows. I'd possibly be inclined to agree. But posting the comparison as ".300 magnums" in general and your not gonna get very far.What's this about changing gears half way through? My ballistic #'s were printed in my second post. Could you not get from these that the WinMag was not the magnum of my posting? I made no secret of what performance I expected and was getting from my .308 magnum rifle. 6" drop at 350 yds. with 250 yd. zero and 3" drift in a 10 mph wind. Just a little deductive reasoning would tell you that I'd need a rifle that gets a 180 gr. bullet (bullet size I used in my posts) going 3450 - 3500 fps to accomplish my above ballistical needs. That's a small group of factory offered cartridges and certainly not a description of the WinMag. No example of "one upsmanship" was every intentionally displayed in my posts, as you would suggest. I was the only one "not" spewing #'s all over this string in a very calculated attempt not to outdo or disrespect anyone. You, my friend, didn't accomplish the same.I know what an '06 and Warbird can accomplish. They aren't even close. A comparison is night and day. Given that, I had every opportunity to light up anyone stating that the '06 to magnum comparison was lagitamite. This was not done. I think I did very well to avoid disrespecting anyone on this topic while still attempting to get the point across. If someone feels flamed, I do appologize for that, but if you'll look back at my posts, you'll see that they've been politely (I hope) consistent from start to finish. And about your '06 load : this is what you choose to make a big deal about? I believe that if you'll go back and read, the comment is in reference to your load simply being of higher performance then the '06 #'s that Eremicus had posted. The post just reads your is hotter then his. No conclusion was drawn as to how far below or above MAX this '06 load is. I simply don't care. I had no idea you'd take such great acception to it being printed that way. I do appologize but it's certainly nothing to get all hot and bothered about. Later. >> klallen

Hello Stush >> If you took acception to the "waste of time" comment in my last post to you, appologies. I was simply pointing out how each of us simply goes in circles with a conversation like this printing our views over and over. That was the "waste of time" I was refering to. Not the discussions per say with individuals like yourself, JJ, e, and the rest. Don't read to much into it. No disrespect intended. Later. >> klallen

Well what do you know the question originally was does the 300 mag have any real significant advantage over the 30/06 out to a distance of 300 to 350 yards. My reply was clear and to the point. NO, nothing I have seen.I don't care about size of your case or the fancy name it has. I don't care about the tons of energy is generates. I don't care how flat shooting it is out to 1000 miles. It was a simple question and a simple answer. the 300 mag shoots the same bullet as the 30/06 ZERO advantage there. The 30/06 has more then enough velocity to pass through any game in NA broadside and most anything quartering away. So at 350 yards with any NA game you pick will either one see a difference when hit exactly the same way? NO they both die, game over!So if you really feel the need to post regarding your flat shooting warbird and it's superior function or greater distance then have at it. That is however a different thread then this one. This one was regarding realistic comparisons between the 30/06 and .308 class of cartridge and the Magnum cartridges at what I offered as a 300-350 yard distance.Not even a fool would argue your warbird was equal to the 30/06 class at greater distances. Those greater distances were your additional input. Not what we or I was discussing here. Enjoy your long range gun. I own a magnum rifle myself. I'm in no way anti magnum. I think the 300 mag is one of the finest rifles made for plains game. It can shoot heavy bullets far faster then the 30/06 which flattens out the trajectory quite a bit. It may be too fast with light bullets though. When you want to rave about your special rifle post something about it that excites you. Don't jump into a thread that has nothing to do with it and try to turn it into a thread about your personal cartridge. That disruption and change of topic is way to confusing to follow. At least for me.jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Mr. klallen. That must be quite a rifle you have there. My limited information, the Barnes No. 2 manual; lists the .30-378 Weatherby as pushing a 180 gr. bullet about 3271 fps. It uses a 26 inch barrel, and burns about 107 grs. of RL 25 to do it. Recoil, from our standard 8.5 lb. rifle is about 47 lbs. vs. 22 lbs. for the 30'06. Your rifle, firing a 180 gr. bullet, with a BC of .500, about 3450 fps. has a drop of 6.23 inches at 350 yds. with a 250 yd. zero. It has a wind drift of 6.5 inches at the same distance in a 10 mph crosswind. Like I said, that must be quite a rifle. Enjoy ! E.

Enough JJ. Didn't read all of your post but from the first few lines, you're just bein' rude. You can rant by yourself now. Good evening eremicus >> The Warbird really is a neat cartridge. Before it was purchased, I was tinkering with the .30/378 WbyMag and .300 RUM ideas. Basically went with the Lazzeroni cause of the matched WBY performance with less powder consumption and the .300 RUM in the Savage offering, while beautiful with its laminated stock and all, chambered badly and just didn't feel right. By the way, I do sense your sarcasm ;o) with the speed thing, and I too was doubtful about getting the advertised 3500 fps from the Warbird. With Lazzeroni's own reloading data, they were only 40 fps away with R25 from a 27" barrel so I was at least optomistic. With the opening loads of H1000, 3350 fps was surpassed and I figured 3500 would be the next day out. It was. Averages with the 180 gr. bullet from the 26" Sako TRG-S are just a shade over 3540 fps. No visible pressure signs to case or primer and extraction is smooth. Accuracy, as typical from a Sako product, is outstanding. There certainly is recoil (41 ft. lbs.) but the 10# scope/gun combo as well as the construction of the Sako stock makes this very manageable. Not since my old Ruger M77 .300 WinMag have I found a stock that so manages recoil. BC of the bullets I use average around the .510 mark. As oposed to the 250 yd. zero you've been mentioning, I use a 300 yd. zero. This puts me about 2.5" high at 100 yds. and a 7" drop at 400 yds. The bullets still going 2752 fps at that distance, which is within optimum speeds prescribed by the manufacturer and tested at the range by me for reliable and predictable expansion of the bullets I use. Actually, the best expansion takes place anywhere from the 275 yd. mark to about 385 yds. The gun will certainly hit farther then this, but for bullet sake, I try to keep shots within this range when I can. Less of a concern for me, but just for kicks, the bullet's still working up 3024 fpe at 400 yds. In a 10 mph wind, drift is under an inch at 200 yds., 2.1" at 300 yds. and comes in right around 7" at 400 yds. For anything down to deer size game and the ranges I'm most comfortable with, it's pretty much hold on the kill zone and the gun does the rest. It's truely been a joy to work with. Quite a step up from my 7mm STW, but not near the monster that everyone would make it out to be. With that said, I agree 100% with you, if I couldn't shoot the Warbird accurately, I would certainly move down the recoil scale to something smaller. Before the Warbird workup even started I was in contact with my local gunsmith already with the muzzle break that I had planned to have installed on this bugger. As is, I was pleased to find the brake not necessary for both monetary as well as muzzle blast reasons. From the moment I started working with her, it's been a total rush. Fun little gun. Talk Later. >> klallen

I remember an article years ago, I think in the Rifleman, that suggested that you can hunt anything in the world with a .22 LR, a .30/06, a .458 Winchester and a 2 3/4" twelve gauge shotgun. Hard to argue with, but think how lackluster the gun and publishing businesses would be. Also we would all have to take up bowling or stamp collecting, or worse, have more time for "honey-do" projects! curmudgeon

One thing for sure ya cant beat a good 30-06!! I have a 338 mag now and it shoots great, and I like it. I have a 7mm and like it very much, but for anything I have ever had the oportunity to hunt and 06 would do about any of it. bcat------------------ If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

<A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting Homepage </A> <A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com" TARGET=_blank>HuntAndLodge.com</A> <A HREF="http://www.recworld.com/boykin" TARGET=_blank>www.recworld.com/boykin</A>

E You make some excellent points as well as does stush and JJ.And to think that all I used to qualify at 800 meters was a 308 Win. AFP makes an excellent point about choosing between velocity and BC. The other thing I get out of having watched this thread since it started was that the issue of hunting vs. shooting is as much an issue as the ranges themselves. In case anyone here has missed it in the past I have been more of a proponent of good hunting skills and woodcraft followed by shooting practice than most. If a good bow-hunter can make a successful stalk on a Pronghorn or Sheep then why do so many insist on thinking they need the flattest trajectories. Case in point. When the true long range shooters of the world call on their weapon of choice they go for the one with a consistent trajectory (by far not the flattest) and minimal recoil. I have done the same thing to people as JJ mentioned with handing someone a rifle "supposedly ready to go" and had a good laugh at the results of the click of the pin. This by the way is also the best way I know to cure folks of a bad flinch problem. It takes two. One to single load each round and not always load a round. Then observe the shooter. The one doing the loading must also possess a poker face, patience and control to keep from laughing.------------------ "The only thing to fear is fear itself"

Well guys-great reading. Love the old mag vs standard debate. I own both and have one short input. Spend the time and shoot to become competent with what you own or sell it!

Goat, et. al.,Another trick, I got from someone else,to work on flinch, is have dummy rounds loaded. You can even weight them with sand. I know people who try to fool themselves this way. Not quite sure exactly how that works...but if your shooting with a partner, you can do it pretty well.John

Klallen, excellent reading, but it's a lost cause, few on these forums respect the valid benefits of magnum offerings. Had the legendary (in my mind) Big Stick been here, you would have been met with a much more understanding crowd. You know how it is.... When the cats away the mice will play. [Linked Image]

He's been gone only a few days and the dogs are loose, attacking long range shooters.

rayrayNo ones really attacking long range shooters, just whether or not a magnum is really needed to shoot long range. I am certainly one who believes that a lot of long range shooting can and should be replaced by more practice of stalking and getting in position for a better shot. I am not against shooting long ranges as I do it on occasion myself. But I just about always try to get closer first and/or get a better shot presentation. I also decide when a shot is not feasible for where I am shooting from and whether the game shot will be recoverable. I have also made most of the longest shots with a 375 and 300 grain bullets and not the flatter calibers I own. Out of the 3 flattest calibers I own I have sold one, a 300 Win, and the other 2, a 300 Wby and 7 STW, are all the way in the back of my safe and will in all probability be sold. The lack of use of these rifles is not from lack of long range shooting or hunting but simply not needing them. I am also sure there are a lot of people out there that use a framing hammer to put up paneling or fix a roof.------------------ "The only thing to fear is fear itself"

rayrayI don't see a single post saying that long range shooting is wrong or bad. What the original question was "is there a difference to 350 yards" between the 30/06 and 300 mag. with the stipulation of 350 yards this is clearly not a long range shooting thread.I said I have shot deadly accurate rifles out to 600 yards and even longer hitting my targets consistantly. That is not magic or hearsay it is common with todays technology. BS and I would be, and are in 100% agreement on that. The issue in THIS THREAD was not "long range" but honest differences to 350 yards. It got off track a bit which is common here. Remember the most intellegent people usually have a short attention span. So it goes on this forum. Topics rarely invlove the original idea after the 15th post or so. Anyone coming in at the end will never figure out what the heck transpired through the entire thread without reading all of the posts. jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

JJ, Are you saying that if I load a 300 win. ,with 200 grain Swifts, to nearly the same velocities (2900 fps) as in your 30-06 with 165 grain Swifts, that there will not be a noticeable difference in effect on game out to 350 yards? The trajectories here are still in favor of the 300 though (due to BC) they will be close, but the energy and weight of bullet, in my view will show a real difference in favor of the magnum. Am I missing something?

Yes, we need to talk apples and apples here with bullet weight. I already brought up the advantages of the magnum cartridges with heavy bullet weights in a post further up the thread. When you go to heavier bullets you also go down in velocity and then bullet integrity seems to work better with the impact velocities achieved. Certainly we cannot compare a 200 grain bullet to a 165 grain bullet at the same speed. Although in reality if two animals are hit in the same lethal location and both a use.308 daimeter how much difference will there be in a timely death? The heavy bullets have a huge advantage in penetration on quarteing shots, exits, and bone crunching power. I prefer bullets heavy for bore diameter in my 375HH but I prefer the 165 grain bullet in my 30/06 because it shoots so magically accurate. The 200 grain Nosler partition in my 300 weatherby was the same velocity and obviously had significant power increase over the 30/06 with the 165 grain load. On Paper!However after seeing lots of game taken with both calibers I started seeing a trend. All animals hit with similiar shots died quickly from either cartridge. This was not a snap decision either. I was a very proud owner and defender of the Weatherby Philospophy of velocity. More years passed and more big to really big game was taken. I'm seeing a lot of game killed with my 300 weatherby and dozens of clients with 30/06's. In Alaska for instance shooting caribou with both rifles under identical conditions with my hot handloaded 300 WTBY mag and 200 grain bullets and with clients 30/06's with cheap 15.00 a box factory ammo from wally world. We are dumping bulls out to 350+ yards on the open tundra while they graze. Same results in Africa with dozens of large plains game. After a while you realize that the calculations on paper don't always add up to the same effect on living tissue. It did not take long before I started seeing the advantages of nearly zero recoil from a light weight 22" barreled rifle. I have seen the 30/06 kill several brown bears, black bears, elk, mountain goats, bison,and dozens of eland, kudu, zebra, wildebeest. These are all big tough animals and were shot at distances from point blank to around 400 yards. I have never seen a single animal with a well placed shot fail to expire within a reasonable time. Certainly a poor shot where big bones are hit would be better with 200 grain bullets with magnum velocity potential, but if we go there they would be better hit with something bigger then .308 in Diameter also!As I have said I owned a 300 mag. I loved it for many years. However the reality of hunting with it changed as I gained more and more experience with actual animals being shot not the math formulas and energy tables. The 30/06 or the 308 will be just as effective out to 350 yards as will the 300 mag. I am not basing this on tables, math formulas or some silly "feeling". Rather I am expressing my personal opionion from hundreds of big game being taken with all kinds of firearms over a 20+ year career in the big game hunting industry. If I were in a situation where I needed to shoot game at 500 yards as a normal practice. the 30/06 would not be my choice. A magnum .308 caliber or better yet the 338/378 would get the call. That would buck wind and shoot more then flat enough to do the deed for me.jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Hey thunderstick >> You're not the only one missing something in this string of posts. From top to 3/4 of the way down, it's a generalized discussion of standards and magnums. Mentioned amongst everything else are .308's, .300 WinMags, .300 WbyMags, 7mm RemMag's, .25-06s, .30-06s, 280's, 270's, .35 Rems, .375 H&Hs, .338 & .300 RUM's, 416's, .22s, .30-30s and maybe a few more I missed. Distances can be found mentioned in this string anywhere from 50 - 400 yds. All heck then breaks loose cause I'm doing my comparisions with something a little bigger in the .308 magnum class. We find out that the good ol '06 can't run with it and the conversation "suddenly" has ALWAYS been addressing the '06 and .300 WinMag only and specifically at 350 yds. Give me a break.I hope you fair better. Also, be careful with your ideas with 220 gr. .308 bullets. While totally valid, they were never mentioned anywhere previously in this string (I checked), so you're gonna be way off of the subject matter with such comparisons. You've been forwarned. Good Luck. >>

JJ, Thanks for the clarification and for giving your opinions. I respect them.If the 300 mag loaded with the same weight bullets as the 30-06 offers no real advantage at normal hunting ranges then I have another question.Does the 458 offer any real advantage over the 45-70 as a dangerous game rifle, under 150 yards; since it is only a difference in velocity that we are considering?

Very good question! The biggest difference is bullet construction at the velocity we are using. I have seen 45/70 velocities from 1500 to 1800 fps from many people on this site. the 458 starts at about 1900 and goes up to 2100fps. So if both used the same bullets say soft points on game suited for the 458 win mag (I assume) buffalo for example the bullets designed for 45/70 velocities would disintegrate on the solid target with the high 458 win mag velocity right? If you use the big heavy constructed bullets for the 458 win mag penetration would be much better because the bullet integrity would be much better. look at this another way. If the bullets used are identical which will penetrate further through flesh and bone? If we use a 500 grain bullet from the 458 win mag and are getting 2000fps or the same bullet from a 45/70 getting 1600fps(maybe) the additional velocity will certainly push the 458 win mag through more meat and bone. This is not exactly the same possible comparison as the 308 calibers because all bullets made in .308 are generally speaking made for 30/06 velocities. Where the 45/70 and the 458 have the same diameter but bullets made specifically for their velocity range. You can easily over drive a .308 bullet in a super magnum rifle but from a 458 win mag you can't over velocity a 458 win mag bullet.I Have seen a few cape buffalo shot with 45/70 rifles. All were loaded with 458 class bullets though. They were shot using sharps rifles with 30" barrels and had velocities in the 458 win mag area. Had they been using standard 45/70 bullets from a lever gun, or the sharps rifle I doubt the results would have been pleasant. jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

JJ, I guess I should have stated that the bullets in the 45-70 would have to be custom bullets that are of bonded cores (there are some)so that all the variables are eliminated and the comparison is equal except for velocity alone. Would there be a discernable difference in terminal results, based on your experience, between these cartridges if both are using quality projectiles? I personnally have always believed that velocity does make a difference up to a point and after that threshold is reached you must go to a bigger caliber to gain significant killing power. It is where we draw the line at that threshold that may be somewhat open to opinion based upon experience.If, as you say, the greater velocity of the 458, over the the 45-70, would cause greater penetration thus better results, I cannot see how a 30 caliber magnum cannot provide the same advantages over the -06, if QUALITY projectiles are chosen.P.S. In an earlier post I believe you identified what I myself believe is one of the magnum's "greatest" (not only) advantage; the ability to push heavier bullets at speeds that give good trajectories.[This message has been edited by Thunderstick (edited April 03, 2001).][This message has been edited by Thunderstick (edited April 03, 2001).]

Your right about the 30mag having greater velocity to penetrate however once the 30 caliber bullet passes through an animal broadside does the additional velocity and bullet weight do anything more? If both are hit identical with accurate well placed shots will the greater velocity help you? I say out to 350 yards no. However beyond 350 yards the magnums will still have enough remaining velocity to penetrate well, where the 30/06 will suffer. Comparing the 458 is different because the 458 win mag is not the penetrateing powerhouse many people think it is. At least not 100% of the time. A 375HH with a solid will out penetrate the 458 win mag 100% of the time.( See Mike Lagrange ballistics in perspective)It is a dandy big game stopper but not in the same league as many of the other African calibers. Consider that it is on the lower end of the "stopper" scale and then consider that the 45/70 is by a margin less powerful and you get the idea where the 45/70 would stand.------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

It is my understanding that the faster a projectile passes through a body cavity the greater and more devastating the shock wave (providing bullet construction is appropriate). By that I mean that body tissue and fluid are displaced both more rapidly and driven farther from the center of the bullets path. This can be illustrated in the difference in damage that a 22-250 can cause as opposed to a 223. There has been many forensic studies that have quantified this. Ballistic gelatin can also illustrate the differences velocity can produce. I agree though that for some purposes you simply need a bigger bullet, but I do not see this in any way negating the fact that increased velocity combined with proper bullet construction can increase trauma.

I feel like Bambi walking onto a rifle range but, gulp, here goes... If one shoots a deer @ 300yds w/30-06 and that deer takes twelve steps and dies as opposed to the Warbird shot deer that takes only ten steps and drops from the additional hydrostatic shock and one doesn't mind the additional recoil, blast, weight, or ammo cost of the magnum, then I say go for it! However animals are individuals and each reacts differently to being shot. Tomorrow it may be the warbird deer that takes the additional two steps and drops. Did the '06 win? What happens if the deer appears thirty yards away instead of three hundred and you have a hot magnum? I don't know. Have any of you killed something that close with a hot mag? Does it cook it as well as bone it? Do .50BMG shooters smile and shake their heads? Remember Croc Dundee..."That's not a knife Mate, THIS is a knife!" [Linked Image]

------------------ Shoot straight and often!

The difference between a 30 magnum and a standard -06 may be looked at, at times, as the difference between a few steps, and it often may be. The exact same results may be observed when using a 338 on a deer as opposed to a 30-06 and yet no one would argue that in some cases and under some conditions there may be a real difference; so it can be in the margin of performance between a 30 magnum and an -06, the same that also exists between a 308 and an -06.There are three main advantages to a 30 magnum over a 30-06, as I see it, flatter trajectory, the ability to drive heavier bullets to greater velocities, and the ability to extend the range at which a bullet will consistantly perform (down to 2000 fps for most bullets). These all are benefits that are the result of greater velocity, which as a result produce more trauma to the animal and a greater margin for human error in shooting, if the hunter can utilize its capabilities. These may not be important to everyone and are not in some situations, but the benefits are quantifiable and I cannot see how they can be denied. This argument could be duplicated between any number of standard rounds (30-30 vs. 30-40 Krag, 300 Savage vs.308, 308 vs. 30-06) and is not merely a magnum/nonmagnum debate at all, unless you are contending that the real issue lies in the belt, except for those that have none.It is largely a matter of how signicant that difference is to us.You could just as well argue the same difference between how many steps an animal will take if hit by a partition or a sierra, sometimes it may be indiscernable, but other times it may make a real difference.Are you satisfied with the middle of the road or do you want a little more?

I've heard all these arguments for the last 60 years, and some of it I agree with and some I don't...I've killed large animals with the 308, 7x57, 9.3x62, 375, 416's and 505's..The one thing I'm sure of is that when push comes to shove and a Buffalo or Lion is intent on doing me awsome amounts of harm, I want the biggest damn gun I can shoot and in my case thats a 416 or 404 and I wish to hell it was a 577 N.E. and yes I can tell the difference in a 505 or 458 Lott and a 300 or 375. Apparently some cannot. I have survived that stage of gundom for I too once believed that caliber had little to do with killing big mean animals.On an average day a 308 or 30-06 will kill Lions and Buffalo just fine and a 375 hits like the hammer of Thor, Its that less than average day when they don't even phase'em that bothers me...Last year I saw a cape Buffalo take 13 body hits with a 470 using softs and another take 9, again using softs...The year before I saw a Cape Buffalo take 7 375's and 4 458's..Again using softs, and that is another ball of wax, but lets pass on it for now. these incidents are not that uncommon..These events have left a lasting impression on me, and I know that if the first shot is bad, then things are going to go South from that point on and I will always pack "enough gun", at least all I can handle and shoot from all field positions...I truly wish I could shoot the bigger bores like the 577 N.E. but I can't so I make do with the 40 cal. I love the 375 but I do not consider it a charge stopper..Phil Shoemaker, Master Alaskan Guide, and gunwriter for several hunting magazines, whom I book for by the way, prescribed a 30-06 with 180 gr. Nolsers for Brown Bear for years and belived it a trueism..After a couple of recent incidents, he freely admits he was dead wrong for years, and now carries a 505 Gibbs and a 458 Lott..that is usually the case, with folks and their light calibers, great and loud admissions of fantastic one shot kills, no need for a stopping rifle, then one day a little rubarb takes place and they sheepishly sneak into town and pick up a real big gun, I guilty of that myself!!!!I admit it and I ain't never looked back.So, Ye who protesteth loudly, be patient, and old MBogo or Simba or even Yogi will change your mind or your body shape someday, which will it be?? Some, who mostly shoot the computer, will always rave gallantly of the perfect shot placement, perfect bullet construction, and the latest hi-velocity 50 cal. necked down to a phono graph needle and they will curse the big bores and elude to such things as shock and FPS and energy tables and of things that from time to time simply elude or fail to comply for the field hunter.....For thoes of you who actually go forth into the field, the cub scout motto still rings true "Be Prepared", shoot the biggest gun you can handle..Thats the best advise you will ever get.------------------ Ray Atkinson atkinsonhunting.com 208-326-4120

As to a 45-70 and 458 mag comparison... lets not forget Buffalo Bore Ammo FACTORY has a 405 hardcast bullet(solid)that goes about 2,000 fps. Hand loads from a 45-70 can duplicate this. Cor-Bon as well as Garrett's ammo goes to this power level. Barely a comparison here. I used to hand load 350's and 405's to 1800, and quit going faster by choice. I could have gone more. ~~~Suluuq

O.K., I think I got it. 1. To each his own, shoot what's comfortable. 2. If you want to kill something over 400yds away, use a magnum...Or an airstrike. 3. Use a magnum if you are not bothered by weight, recoil, blast or cost. 4. 5,000 fps is a wet dream just around the corner. 5.NEVER, EVER let a magnum shooter borrow your '06 because he's lost or misplaced his ammo and the general store in town doesn't carry his "size". [Linked Image]

6. More is better.He who drives down middle of road stay out of ditch! [Linked Image]

------------------ Shoot straight and often!

Suluuq, greetings. Did you ever shoot any of those heavy Garretts? That cannot be fun from the prone position!------------------ Shoot straight and often!

Hi Thunderstick. I think your forgetting something. Bullet wounds are basically round, or circular, in nature. The damage radiates out from the center. The amount of damage is controled by the total energy, and it's rate of release. But the size of the wound channel soaks up this energy by the square of of the radius of this wound channel. In otherwords, it takes four times the energy to make the wound channel twice as large as it would have been. We don't have cartriages that produce levels of energy like 3,000; 9,000; and 81,000 lbs. We do have rounds like the .243 (2000 lbs.,) and the .375 (4000 lbs.). I think that everyone agrees that these two wound much differently. You can also consider the fact that different tissue types absorb this energy differently; muscle, bone, lung tissue, etc. Then, of course, we have different size animals. If a .243 is adequate for a 200 lb. deer, what is adequate for a 700 lb. elk ? Hope this helps. E

Good Evening PhilNash >> You asked -- "Have any of you killed something that close with a hot mag?" Yes, very close shots have been taken on deer with my 7mm STW. With the velocities generated by larger magnums, heavy consideration has to be given towards the best bullet to satisfy all my hunting requirements. With velocities on the same order as the Warbird, the STW also is loaded with ballistic silvertips weighing 140 grs. These bullets give very predictable expansion out at 275 - 385 yds., once they've slowed to their optimum functioning speeds. The charactersitics of the bullet offer unparalleled ballistical performance. There is no worry about either soft tissue hits or heavy bone (for deer) hits; full penetration is regularly achieved. This is where 85% of my shots take place and my bullet of choice works wonders. Now, the other 15% I stumble into at very close ranges. Anyone who DOES NOT know and fully understand the structure and habits of a ballistic silvertip will scouf at their use with such a shot. I too would not recommend their use for the unfamiliar. I think that we all know that it's not used to crush bone at the ranges that you're suggesting. However, a common myth with these heavier calibered ballistic silvertips is that they vaporize on hair, like their smaller calibered, varmint style, counterparts (.224's, .243's & .257's). Far from the truth. While they certainly wouldn't hold with a 100 yd. or less heavy bone shoulder hit, they are without match for that same distance shot delivering the violent shredding of vitals when using the classic heart/lung shot. With this type of shot, once the bullet has entered the chest cavity, expansion is of little consequence. .284 caliber and heavier ballistic silver tips have enough mass to easily punch through the rib cage of a deer or elk at very high speeds (although my elk load is never topped with BST's), regardless of weather rib bone is hit or not, and proceed on to deliver massive destruction to the vitals before exiting the other side. Many a controlled expansion bullet would not even start the expansion process with such a close range, high velocity hit. This is why the ballistic silvertip is my favorite deer bullet for my hunting ranges, while also functioning well in a pinch under range conditions that most would think unwise. Later. >> klallen

Enjoyed your post Mr. Atkinson. Interesting perspective coming from the other side of things. Moving from the '06 back up the caliber scale. Thanks. >> klallen

JJ, I have to ask, if your so thrilled with the 30-06, why do you have a 375????? why diss another poster because he wants the ultimate in performance??????you yourself owned a 300 Weatherby,,did you not want performance??? the only reason you think the 06 is as good as the 300 mags is because of bullet design,,,and years from now we will all be saying we don't need a 300 ultra whammyy boom boom, a ultra whammy will do,,we all wear are own shoes,, hard to judge or condemn someone for their chioces when you haven't worn their shoes,,,you and I hunt in the same country, the same state and the same terrain,,,not a whole lot of places where the warbird is gonna be an advantage, but Klallen lives in a different part of the world,,,any advantage is a good advantage when you are talking long range stuff,,,,,hell for what I do, the 350 MAG is my #1 choice,,,just because you """feel or think"" the 06 is the end all beat all doesn't make it so,,,,,BEARHUNTER

Phil Nash... no. Too expensive to import into Northern Alaska. Buffalo bore Ammo is cheaper and a little bit more stronger, but again, never used those either. I prefer to handload, its cheaper yet. Bearhunter... I suppose JJ uses a 375 because he guides in Africa, having done so in Alaska for may years. ~~~Suluuq

A summation of my position is this:The advantages of a 30 mag are quantifiable and cannot be denied. They may not offer enough of a difference for your style of hunting or your perceptions of terminal results to be worth it in your mind, but they are still there and one day it may make the difference.There also comes a point when no amount of increase in velocity will be sufficient, for a bigger caliber is needed.The -06 in my mind is a wonderfully versatile round but is mediocrity (though quite adequate) when compared to what a magnum can offer in pushing 200 grain bullets to the same trajectory as a 165 out of an -06. Does the increase in velocity double the wound channel (Eremicus)? Of course not, but it is still offering real advantages to the hunter. Now if you cannot hit the vitals because of recoil of course then there is no advantage, but then I would not suppose you would be able to effectively handle a 375 or larger either for dangerous game.There are many people who draw different conclusions based on their experiences such as Jack 'O Connor and Elmer Keith. Whom do I believe, unless I accept also some quantifiable evidence to help me decipher there views?Often when I see debates such as these that draw conclusions, that in my view, appear a bit one sided I will bring forth the opposite view in order to round out the discussion. There is much that was expressed from the standard cartridge side that I also would agree with, but simply cannot agree with the premise that the 30-06 represents the full potential of the 30 caliber cartridges out to 350 yards.

Phil, He who drives in middle of road is not in right lane. [Linked Image]

Gentlemen: I have been away for a while, but it looks like you all have been busy. After reading some on this thread. I think Ray, makes more sence of the matter. I hate to admit it but I think I even understand him these days. So, Ray, I have to agree this time. George

Bearhunter, I wish you would re-read the whole thread and see I did not "dis" anyone here. Tough coming into the middle and forming an opinion on an entire thread eh!You pose several questions assumuing what my thoughts and opinions are. "if I am so thrilled with the 30/06 why do I own a 375" You could not possibly have read much of this thread and come to that conclusion or your reading comprehension is in dire need of help.I find it hard to even reply because it is all in this thread already why should I have to type all over again becasue you did not read or understand the thread? A brief summery of my comments: the 30/06 and the 300 mags are nearly equal in performance when the same bullet weight is used and the target is under 350 yards. Did you see anything in that which "dissed" anyone? This is the topic here in total. nothing here has anything to do with the 375HH so where your coming from with that I have no idea? It is again another thread I suppose. To simplify this for you: A person can own a car and a truck which one will he choose for hauling firewood? same goes with rifle choices, different tools different jobs. I know it can be difficult to come into a thread and read the last couple posts which often have litte to do with the original thread or the first few posts. But to comment on things the way you did is a reflection of you, and your opinions. Not the way this thread was going. klallan and I were involved in a debate over this and straightened it out never any "dissing" as you so eloquently phrased it.By all means read the whole thread and you will see the content is educational. It is difficult for me to sit here and recap two pages of this, just read whats here.jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

JJ, My apologies,,I did not fully read all the post,,something that always leads to misinterpertation,,,BEARHUNTER

klallen, thanks for the response, it makes sense. Thunderstick, right lane, good one!Do you guys hunt with plugs in? We are talking some serious noise here.------------------ Shoot straight and often!

Accepted Mr. BearHunter! I have very often been caught in that trap myself. It seems when the threads are long and the last post is a real load of BS I tend to just ignore it unless I have the time to read the whole thing. More often then not my opinion after following the thread is different after reading all of it.jj------------------ The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

If you read mr.Atkinson's excellent summation of this never-ending arguement,and instead of the D.G. aspect,consider that if I'm willing to devote two months of my time to try and kill one particular whitetail buck in one particular pasture,I'm going to use what is the absolute best cartridge for where I will be hunting on a particular day.That cartridge will never,ever,be a 30 06,270,280,or 7mm 08.They are all fine.there will always- in my opinion- be another either larger or smaller which is just right. My time is not worth as much as MR. Atkinson's life, but it's worth something and I aint gonna waste it from being under-gunned.If my 338 ultra is too much,I aint stopping on the way down til I get to the .308 win.From there down its 257AI,then 22 250.The 7 ultra is a truly special application rifle for me.See,four cartridges;five bullet wts.,50 ,100,150,200,250gr.,all shooting extremly fast.No room or need for compromise.