Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Fallacies, fantasies, and our big game rifles

klallen,<P>I believe that you have missed the point of my post and others. I stated at the end of my post, "Please DON'T take this as a 300 WM bashing post, or even one championing the 308 or 06 or any other caliber". I too shoot a 300 WM. I love the gun (a Ruger 77) and the caliber. When I hunt with a rifle, I pick it up probably more often than any other rifle that I own. I am no shrinking violet when it comes to taking long range shots. I have shot deer with this gun at ranges from 100 to 400 yards. It works wonderfully. I have also shot game out to almost 300 yards with a handgun. When I don't use the 300, I often carry a 280 Remington. I once shot a mule deer doe with the 280 at 375 yards. The bullet went straight through the chest cavity. She walked about three steps after the shot and dropped dead. She didn't seem to care that I shot her with the 280 instead of the 300. How much "deader" would she have been if I grabbed the 300 that day? <P>With regard to the energy question, I respectfully ask if you would like to be hit with either 1400 or 1800 fpe through the chest cavity at 350 yards? I doubt that you would volunteer for either. And I respectfully submit again, with a shot in the proper place, that either energy level would be sufficient to kill any deer or elk walking the planet. Maybe I should present this another way. Could I convince you to agree that, at ranges up to 100 yards, the 30-30 with a 170 grain bullet at the maximum velocity possible would be sufficient for either mule deer or elk? I believe that most reasonable people would agree to that much. I would ask you to show me the deer or elk that could take a shot from a 170 grain 30-30 bullet through the vitals at 100 yards and survive. If we are in agreement on this point, let me now submit that the 30-30's 170 grain bullet at 2000 fps of muzzle velocity retains only a little over 1000 fpe at 100 yards. Why then, would you assert that 1400 fpe at 350 yards might not be sufficient but 1000 fpe is at 100? <P>I agree with you that magnums can be shot as accurately as other rounds. No argument on that point at all. I believe that if you reread the start of this thread, you will see that we were attempting to make the point that most hunters do not need to rush out and buy a magnum to hunt with. The advantages of the magnums, and I will not argue that they do offer ballistic advantage, are insignificant if the hunter cannot shoot the rifle accurately. Again, I AM NOT taking the position that magnums cannot be shot accurately. My position is that most hunters need a significant amount of time and practice to learn to shoot them accurately. That is time that most will NOT invest. They would be much better served by shooting the rifle that they are already familiar with. Does that mean that they will pass up some shots? Absolutely. They are leaving those animals out there for you to shoot. ;-) You imply though, that it is not possible to stalk closer than 300 yards in the plains of MT. I haven't hunted there, but I'm guessing they aren't too different than the plains of WY? Please let me know if I am wrong. I certainly have seen some deer that you couldn't get that close to, but I believe that a good hunter can get themself within 300 yards on most occasions. How about the guides on the board? Care to chime in on this one? You must have hunted mulies on the western plains. Could you get a shot on a decent mule deer or elk for a hunter that told you "I can hit anything you show me within 300 yards"?<P>------------------<BR>Stush

Hey JJHACK >> What's this 360 degree stuff? I've always stated that I enjoy what my magnums offer me as far as long distance trajectory. I've never waivered on that. I would suspect we both know there's not much agreement going on here but ... You posted that with your '06, you "don't see many sure things at 300 - 350 yds". Here's where our differences lie. I'll repost an earlier comment to you -- "I do believe that we have just hit on the main difference between the competent standard cartridge user and the competent magnum cartridge user. The typical standard shooter believes that the 275 - 350 yd. shot is long and risky. The magnum user views the 300 - 350 yd. shot as common place and prepares himself for just such hunting".<P>If you find this to be in agreement with what you've been posting, then OK, I agree with you. If you don't, then no, we must not be in agreement. I choose not to deal with the hold overs and the doping for wind that you seem to enjoy dealing with. Especially at the 350 yd. ranges we're talking about. Longer shots, certainly, but at 350 yds. I fully expect to be dead on. With your standards you can't expect the same thing, and that's no judgement on the standards. It's just a statement on what's physically possible for one cartridge and what's not for another. Simple as that. I choose my magnum offerings so "hold over's" don't come into play. As suspected, there's few if any agreements between us. Later. >> klallen<P>Hey CP >> Don't take this as an attempt to bicker. Only replying to your post, OK? We have certainly taken the opportunity to hunted the ridges, coulees, cuts and bottoms of the Little Belts many times, as well as those found in the Highwoods, Big Belts & Little Snowy's. Living in such close proximity to these moutain ranges, most everyone has. Also enjoyed hunts in the Rocky Mountain scene on lands near Glacier National Park and farther west of Great Falls towards Lincoln in the Helena National Forest. Also, close quarter river bottom hunting for big Whitetail just 12 miles west of Great Falls is a blast. I don't know where you've got the impression that the only style of hunting I've seen is "beanfield" type hunting in eastern MT. Maybe I misled you somehow. Although eastern badland hunting has also been experienced. Not much fun in my opinion. The winters are harsh and quite frankly, the sage raised deer don't taste that good, compared to those that are wheat feed. Anyway, the point being, I've hunted in all the venues that this state has to offer. I have yet to find one that I would rate more a hunting experience then the other. <P>I got just as much pleasure from my 5x4 Muley taken at 135 yds. after an extensive stalk over the Little Belt hills and valleys in 1999 as I did with my 5x5 Muley gotten just this last year on the land previously described to you when he happen to show himself at 365 yds. distance. And yes, my magnum functioned just find on both kinds of shots. You may certainly have a personal preference, and I suppose I do too, but bottom line is hunting's hunting. Why complicate things by stating that a trip into the field now has to meet certain criteria to be classified as hunting; I don't play that game. There's just way to many other important issues, variables and conditions that need to be dealt with. Regards. >> klallen

Hey Stush >> I'll attempt to be as polite in my reply as you were in your post ;o). Here goes. I'm really not addressing you with my comments. Some of JJ's points just don't match mine. That's all. With that said, I'll answer each topic of your post as I get to them : <P>"How much "deader" would she have been if I grabbed the 300 that day?" Never talked about the "dead is dead" issue. When talking long range shooting, energy plays little into my preparation. I'm addressing trajectory issues. <P> <P>"With regard to the energy question, I respectfully ask if you would like to be hit with either 1400 or 1800 fpe through the chest cavity at 350 yards?" I would personally choose not to get hit by either, but as a hunter, I'd error on the side of caution and prefer 1800 fpe transfered to the animal via a properly constructed bullet.<P>"Could I convince you to agree that, at ranges up to 100 yards, the 30-30 with a 170 grain bullet at the maximum velocity possible would be sufficient for either mule deer or elk?" Yes.<P>"Why then, would you assert that 1400 fpe at 350 yards might not be sufficient but 1000 fpe is at 100?" Never, in any of my posts did I state that 1400 fpe wouldn't be sufficient to kill. It was stated that, between 1400 and 1800 fpe, 1800 would be prefered for the same reason stated two questions above. <P>"I believe that if you reread the start of this thread, you will see that we were attempting to make the point that most hunters do not need to rush out and buy a magnum to hunt with." Incorrect. If you reread the whole of this thread (not just the start) you'll see that the underlying attitude states that an '06 will perform to the same standards expected of a magnum offering. A generalized statement like that is horribly misleading. Besides that, I think we both know this is not true.<P>"My position is that most hunters need a significant amount of time and practice to learn to shoot them accurately." Is this not true regardless of wheather a standard or magnum is being used? Over the years, I've seen just as poor of '06 & .270 users as any magnum shooter. Is this more excuseable cause they shoot the light weight stuff? Or can this be attributed to the belief (like you have) that magnum shooters need to practice more to master their rifle then the standard shooter? You raise an interesting point. If your thoughts are correct, then it would stand to reason that magnum users would be more proficient with their rifles then standard users, because of the greater number of practice hours needed to achieve mastery of the gun. <P>"You imply though, that it is not possible to stalk closer than 300 yards in the plains of MT." Please don't generalize my hunting conditions with the hole of MT. This is a mistake. For the SPECIFIC area that I described earlier, once you are set, opportunities to stalk are present with only a few possible deer crossing sinarios. Stalking is readily done when these present themselves. The rest of the time, all that stands between you and a 375 yd. shot is snow, a few blades of dead grass and possibly a couple mounds of 2" high prairie cactus. I am not kidding when I say that the stalk opportunity rarely exists on this land.<P>"I certainly have seen some deer that you couldn't get that close to, but I believe that a good hunter can get themself within 300 yards on most occasions." Again you reestablish my earlier point. 325 yd. shots to the standard user is perceived as long and risky, while the competent magnum user expects them and prepares heavily for just such occasion. One point, if I know that 85% of my shots are going to fall in the mid to long ranges, would it not be in my best interest to equip myself with something other than an '06, so that these shots are realistic?<P>"Could you get a shot on a decent mule deer or elk for a hunter that told you "I can hit anything you show me within 300 yards"?" If these were the ranges that you had set for yourself, I'd certainly not take you onto the land that's been described above. Confidence at ranges a bit farther then that are required.<P>Stush, the bottom line of my wasting time posting on this subject is based on the belief that an '06 can perform to the same standards as a magnum offering. That's it. Just answer me this. Does an '06, with a drop of 11.5" at 350 yds. equal a magnum offerings performance of a 6" drop at the same distance with both guns being zeroed at 250 yds? It's really a simple yes/no answer. It's not a question of weather a 180 gr. bullet from an '06 kills better or worse than the same bullet from a .300 RUM once it reaches the target. But from point "a" to point "b", does the '06 equal the magnum performance? NO. That's all I've been saying. Later. >> klallen <BR>

For the sake of the general discussion, I thought I would post the following: 30'06/180 Sierra @ 2756. Using max. Point Blank Range of plus/minus 3 inches, comes out at a zero of 223 yds., it's down 13.5 inches at 350 yds. The 300 Win Mag., same bullet @ 3059, same PBR zero is on @ 246 yds., and is down about 9 inches @ 350 yds. This amounts to a holdover difference of about 1.3 MOA. Let's not forget the wind. At 350 yds. your wind drifts, with a 10 mph crosswind, are 11 inches for the '06, and 9 inches for the 300 Mag. The recoil figures are as follows; '06 22 lbs.; 300 Win Mag. 31 lbs. Both out of 8.5 lb. rifles. My point is that both reguire some holdover, the difference being a whole 1.3 MOA. Both require wind consideration, if there is any. And the .300 Win. Mag boots the shooter considerably more than the '06. We can move back to 500 yds. if you like. The drop figures are 35, and 47 inches. The wind drift figures are 20, and 24 inches. So now the drop figures are 2.4 MOA. Impact velocitys are 2009 fps, and 1774 fps. Not much difference. How well can you estimate a holdover of 35 inches at that range ? What are you going to use as a reference point ? If your using target style elevation knobs, all the '06 user has to do is dial up another 2.5 MOA. Is a magnum really worth it to you ? It's your call. E

Eremicus,<P>Stop that. If you keeping spewing facts all you are going to do is confuse people. :-)<BR><P>------------------<BR>Stush

Klallen,<P>My response, and my last word on this, because it is turning into a p****** match at this point:<P>1) "the bottom line of my wasting time posting on this subject"<P>Sorry to waste your time. If it is a waste of your time, why do you keep posting? No one is forcing you to do so, are they? If you keep contributing to the dialog, please do not accuse me of wasting your time. Any time you choose to waste is at your discretion. <P>2) Your issue is with the assertion that "an '06 can perform to the same standards as a magnum offering. That's it. Just answer me this. Does an '06, with a drop of 11.5" at 350 yds. equal a magnum offerings performance of a 6" drop at the same distance with both guns being zeroed at 250 yds? It's really a simple yes/no answer. It's not a question of weather a 180 gr. bullet from an '06 kills better or worse than the same bullet from a .300 RUM once it reaches the target. But from point "a" to point "b", does the '06 equal the magnum performance? NO."<P>If you are speaking strictly about trajectory (as you stated earlier), you already know the answer to this question, and it was a concession that I made in my original post. The magnum is going to be the flatter shooter at any given bullet weight. How significant is this this trajectory difference in the real world? IMHO, it is not significant for most shooters. Again, I believe that this is a point that we can agree upon. You state that you are not interested in compensating for the greater drop of the lesser round. That's fine. I submit that many people can do so quite adequately, and do so on a regular basis. <P>3) "Over the years, I've seen just as poor of '06 & .270 users as any magnum shooter. Is this more excuseable cause they shoot the light weight stuff? Or can this be attributed to the belief (like you have) that magnum shooters need to practice more to master their rifle then the standard shooter?"<P>I do not believe that I have asserted that it is more difficult to shoot a magnum at all. I personally shoot the a 300 WM, and have shot my dad's 300 RUM on numerous occasion. I don't think that either is overly punishing. If I made the impression that magnums are too much for the average shooter, then I have not adequately conveyed my position. Let me try to state it as plainly as possible.<P>I see guys walk through the door every day that have to have the newest, fastest rifle on the market. The want them because they read the current marketing spin that says that for some reason their old 06 or 308 or whatever is no longer adequate for their needs. If they want the rifle just because they have an interest in firearms or ballistics, like many here do, thats fine. In that case, they are very likely going to spend the time to work out a load for the rifle or find a suitable factory load and follow through to become proficient with it. What bothers me, bottom line, is when the guy who has been shooting his 270 or 06 well for years walks in and buys the super duper magnum and automatically assumes that he is now better equiped to hit the woods. That is not true - no matter what the trajectory, energy, velocity, etc. for the new gun is. He would be much better served by taking the rifle he knows and shoots well, not the new rifle that gives him a minor edge on paper. If you can shoot your magnums well, more power to you. Please don't assume that everyone can or wants to do so, and please do not overstate the advantage offered by them. I haven't made a kill with a magnum caliber that couldn't have been made by a lesser comparable caliber in the right hands. <P>For the third time, "Please DON'T take this as a 300 WM bashing post, or even one championing the 308 or 06 or any other caliber". <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Stush

It's funny. Long range target shooters use slower bullet with very high BCs. They can compesate for bullet drop very precisely--they know the exact range of the target and know the trajectory of their load. They do not know the exact wind effect, so they use a bullet that's affected by the wind as little as possible. When they have to pick velocity over BC, they choose BC. Many 1000 yd 300 mags shoot 220-240 grain bullets at 2700-2800 fps. I wonder if we should learn from them? Maybe if we want to shoot at long ranges, we should get rangefinders and pick heavy, slower bullets with high BCs.<P>JJ,<P>I'm not so sure the 300 Win (one of my favorites) has an advantage over the 30-06 past 300 yds, especially with the advent of rangefinders. I think the only place where a 300 mag has an advantage is when bullet velocities drop below the min required for decent expansion. If that is around 1800 fps (some bullets reliably open at 1400 fps), then a 30-06 is a 450 yd gun and the 300 Win a 600 yd gun, if you can hit what you are shooting at.<P>Blaine

Morning Eremicus >> You speak as if I've been refering to the .300 WinMag as the magnum compared to the '06 in my posts. Nope. When I use the word magnum, in reference to .308 caliber, I'm refering to something a bit larger then the WinMag. If the #'s I've been posting look like those of a WinMag, I'd politely suggest that you take a closer look at my posts. These are not WinMag #'s. <P>Eremicus, we can post #'s all day long and no matter how many we post we'll always come up with the same thing. Advantage magnum. Regardless of weather we compare stush's .300 WinMag at the small end or the extreme magnum offerings at the largest end of the .308 caliber. Still the same. Now, whether you consider these advantages to be insignificant, that's entirely your choice. It seems as though you'd have me believe that you choose your firearms based on the recoil #'s produced. While this is certainly a way to go, I tend to base a rifle purchase on other things. <P>It's funny how we are seeing the same thing two different ways. You look at the performance advantages that do exist with even the relatively small .300 WinMag over the '06 as insignificant, to small to take seriously, no real advantage. And then you exaggerate the small increase in recoil to be so debilitating that this is your basis for purchase. I, and those in my camp, come from the opposite side. We look at the recoil #'s you seem to be so inconvenienced by (especially with the light hitting WinMag) as insignificant, to small to take seriously, no big deal at all, with any ballistical advantage easily welcomed.<P>I am sorry I never really noticed your '06 #'s (was going on what JJ posted for his '06 #'s), but I've seen enough '06 data to know that, it really doesn't matter who's doing the reloading, performance is pretty much constant. JJ's '06 #'s are about the hottest that I've seen in an '06. Yours are not. Any performance comparisions would be worse for you then with my talks with JJ. <P>That's kinda beside the point though. If it works for you then thats good enough. I just have a hard time with unrealistic comparisons. You can throw around '06 / WinMag comparisions all you'd like. Performance wise, factory loaded WinMag and a hot handloaded '06 may very well be similar. But there are things out there today that make the WinMag look small. I suppose these are the magnums that I was refering to in my posts. There are things that DO NOT require hold over at the ranges that we're discussing, when the '06 would. There are things that DO NOT require doping for wind drift, when the '06 would. That's all I've been saying. <P>There are things that can be accomplished by magnums that are ballistic impossibilities in an '06. You can move back to 500 yds. (getting to the outer limits of my desired shooting distance, I might add), and the '06 falls even farther behind these big .30's. When comparing cartridges we should stick with the .30-06 / .270 comparisions. I suppose I would even give you the '06 / WinMag comparison. These are at least realistic. An '06 / upper end .308 cal. magnum comparision just doesn't exist. Already late for work. Will talk later. >> klallen <P>

This argument could be reduced to the same debate between the 308 and the 30-06. These two are actually closer then the margin between the win mag and the 30-06. Most people recognize a difference between the -08 and the -06, why they cannot see that difference when going to the magnums is beyond me. The difference lies in the ability of a larger case to push heavier bullets to greater velocities or lighter premium bullets to very flat trajectories, or whatever combo you may choose. Whether to you the margin is, or is not, significant, it is still there as much as between the -06 and -08 or even the 30-40 Krag.<BR>This margin is only meaningful to those who have the ability to capitalize on it and want every mechanical advantage they can reasonably get for longer ranges, or for the use of heavier bullets with similar trajectories of smaller cases using lighter bullets. If your hunting style or capability cannot utilize a magnums performance, then why use it? But if you can benefit from it, then why not?<P>The main advantage, though is in what AFP identified and that is maintaining the proper impact velocity for reliable bullet expansion, which I feel more comfortable with when it does not drop much below 2000 fps.<P>This discussion has largely overlooked this most important point. A handloaded 300 Win. with 190 to 200 grain bullets will match the trajectory of a 30-06 with 165s but will hit with more authority and will retain more velocity at the same range for better bullet performance; and that is a real advantage.<P>It seems though, that some people buy and hunt with magnums for the wrong reasons when in reality they would probably be far better served carrying an -06 that they can actually shoot and which provides more capability than what they can utilize anyway.<P>Those that shoot the magnums well realize the advantages they offer just the same as those that prefer a 458 over a 45-70 for dangerous game.

klallen, As I understood this it was a conversation between the 30/06 and the 300 magnums. Not some rare or exceptional 30 caliber rifle your now speaking of. Maybe you should think about introducing your original concepts from the get go so it's easier for all of us to follow along with. <P>Emericus posted factual and accurate data for the comparison. Then you come back with some exceptional 30 caliber magum data that is outside the whole topic of conversation. <P>I personally don't get it anymore so I'll leave this to you guys to sort out as the next level will be a 50 caliber rifle necked down to .308 before this is over and I don't care to participate in this one ups manship BS any longer. It becomes very difficult to compare something "known" so something "unknown" which is exactly what you have pulled in this whole topic of conversation!<P>As far as my 30/06 being too "hot" well I'm shooting 59 grains of IMR4831 with a 22" barrel using 165 grain bullets. Look it up it's not max. I always post honestly here and start with an honest and up front discussion. I don't change the deal half way through!jj<P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

I like my 358 win, 300 win 30 gibbs and I like my 257 roberts, 25 06 Also. I like them all and will take any one of them on any give day. I trust them because they do there part when, I mine. Guns are like most people, until I meet them and we give each other a chance, then I know if we can get along. Now I have met a couple of guns I did not like because they abused me, we just did not fit well. Now in somebody else hands they are probably great. I practice so that I understand what my friend expects of me, how close, were, and the elements. If I answer these questions the gun will take care of its part.olefish

This type of debate always perplexes me. It seems that cartridges are a little bit like wrenches -- you pick the right one for the job but there is no sense in saying "this one is better than that one". After all, many cartridge's capabilities overlap. I've used everything from 22LR to 303British to a 375H&H and while some actions (ie, Browning) were not to my liking, the cartridges all went "bang" with the same satisfaction :-)<BR>Peace, RJ

Hey JJHACK >> You're something else, my man. Look at what you've posted in this string. You generalize through the entire conversation, '06 to .300 magnums, and then whammo, at the end, you get ****ed over something and say you were talking '06 / WinMag comparisons the whole time. Now, I don't understand where you're coming from.<P>When you make a comment (repeatedly, I might add) that states "the '06 can perform just as well as the .300 magnums out to 350 yds", I would think it safe and practical to assume that you have taking into consideration the full array of mainstream factory offered .308 magnums. It was obvious from the very start of this conversation that you had not, yet you continued to hold on to your premise. You don't have to look far to find factory offered magnums the blow this view all apart. The .300 RUM (Remington, Winchester, Savage), .30/378 WbyMag (Weatherby) and 7.82 Warbird (Sako) come to mind and all are readily available to john q public. No rarity involved with these offerings. Now, which of these would not be included as a ".308 magnum"? I think you're getting a glimpse of my confusion with your extremely generalized statement. With the vagueness, I simply chose to comment on the .308 magnum that I know and work with, that being the 7.82 Warbird. In your generalization, you were focusing on the small stuff, I was looking at the other end of the .308 caliber class. This confussion can happen when nondescript, general comments are made. You posted about the .300 WbyMag at one point. Others mentioned the .300 WinMag. Yet all wraped up their posts with the same generalized statement, "'06's perform along side .300 magnums". If you wanna post next time that an '06 will perform along side a WinMag or even WbyMag, by all means, post that. How knows. I'd possibly be inclined to agree. But posting the comparison as ".300 magnums" in general and your not gonna get very far.<P>What's this about changing gears half way through? My ballistic #'s were printed in my second post. Could you not get from these that the WinMag was not the magnum of my posting? I made no secret of what performance I expected and was getting from my .308 magnum rifle. 6" drop at 350 yds. with 250 yd. zero and 3" drift in a 10 mph wind. Just a little deductive reasoning would tell you that I'd need a rifle that gets a 180 gr. bullet (bullet size I used in my posts) going 3450 - 3500 fps to accomplish my above ballistical needs. That's a small group of factory offered cartridges and certainly not a description of the WinMag. <P>No example of "one upsmanship" was every intentionally displayed in my posts, as you would suggest. I was the only one "not" spewing #'s all over this string in a very calculated attempt not to outdo or disrespect anyone. You, my friend, didn't accomplish the same.<P>I know what an '06 and Warbird can accomplish. They aren't even close. A comparison is night and day. Given that, I had every opportunity to light up anyone stating that the '06 to magnum comparison was lagitamite. This was not done. I think I did very well to avoid disrespecting anyone on this topic while still attempting to get the point across. If someone feels flamed, I do appologize for that, but if you'll look back at my posts, you'll see that they've been politely (I hope) consistent from start to finish. <P>And about your '06 load : this is what you choose to make a big deal about? I believe that if you'll go back and read, the comment is in reference to your load simply being of higher performance then the '06 #'s that Eremicus had posted. The post just reads your is hotter then his. No conclusion was drawn as to how far below or above MAX this '06 load is. I simply don't care. I had no idea you'd take such great acception to it being printed that way. I do appologize but it's certainly nothing to get all hot and bothered about. Later. >> klallen<P>

Hello Stush >> If you took acception to the "waste of time" comment in my last post to you, appologies. I was simply pointing out how each of us simply goes in circles with a conversation like this printing our views over and over. That was the "waste of time" I was refering to. Not the discussions per say with individuals like yourself, JJ, e, and the rest. Don't read to much into it. No disrespect intended. Later. >> klallen<BR>

Well what do you know the question originally was does the 300 mag have any real significant advantage over the 30/06 out to a distance of 300 to 350 yards. My reply was clear and to the point. NO, nothing I have seen.<P>I don't care about size of your case or the fancy name it has. I don't care about the tons of energy is generates. I don't care how flat shooting it is out to 1000 miles. <P>It was a simple question and a simple answer. the 300 mag shoots the same bullet as the 30/06 ZERO advantage there. The 30/06 has more then enough velocity to pass through any game in NA broadside and most anything quartering away. So at 350 yards with any NA game you pick will either one see a difference when hit exactly the same way? NO they both die, game over!<P>So if you really feel the need to post regarding your flat shooting warbird and it's superior function or greater distance then have at it. That is however a different thread then this one. This one was regarding realistic comparisons between the 30/06 and .308 class of cartridge and the Magnum cartridges at what I offered as a 300-350 yard distance.<P>Not even a fool would argue your warbird was equal to the 30/06 class at greater distances. Those greater distances were your additional input. Not what we or I was discussing here. Enjoy your long range gun. I own a magnum rifle myself. I'm in no way anti magnum. I think the 300 mag is one of the finest rifles made for plains game. It can shoot heavy bullets far faster then the 30/06 which flattens out the trajectory quite a bit. It may be too fast with light bullets though. <P>When you want to rave about your special rifle post something about it that excites you. Don't jump into a thread that has nothing to do with it and try to turn it into a thread about your personal cartridge. That disruption and change of topic is way to confusing to follow. At least for me.jj<P>------------------<BR>The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Mr. klallen. That must be quite a rifle you have there. My limited information, the Barnes No. 2 manual; lists the .30-378 Weatherby as pushing a 180 gr. bullet about 3271 fps. It uses a 26 inch barrel, and burns about 107 grs. of RL 25 to do it. Recoil, from our standard 8.5 lb. rifle is about 47 lbs. vs. 22 lbs. for the 30'06. Your rifle, firing a 180 gr. bullet, with a BC of .500, about 3450 fps. has a drop of 6.23 inches at 350 yds. with a 250 yd. zero. It has a wind drift of 6.5 inches at the same distance in a 10 mph crosswind. Like I said, that must be quite a rifle. Enjoy ! E.

Enough JJ. Didn't read all of your post but from the first few lines, you're just bein' rude. You can rant by yourself now. <P>Good evening eremicus >> The Warbird really is a neat cartridge. Before it was purchased, I was tinkering with the .30/378 WbyMag and .300 RUM ideas. Basically went with the Lazzeroni cause of the matched WBY performance with less powder consumption and the .300 RUM in the Savage offering, while beautiful with its laminated stock and all, chambered badly and just didn't feel right. By the way, I do sense your sarcasm ;o) with the speed thing, and I too was doubtful about getting the advertised 3500 fps from the Warbird. With Lazzeroni's own reloading data, they were only 40 fps away with R25 from a 27" barrel so I was at least optomistic. With the opening loads of H1000, 3350 fps was surpassed and I figured 3500 would be the next day out. It was. Averages with the 180 gr. bullet from the 26" Sako TRG-S are just a shade over 3540 fps. No visible pressure signs to case or primer and extraction is smooth. Accuracy, as typical from a Sako product, is outstanding. There certainly is recoil (41 ft. lbs.) but the 10# scope/gun combo as well as the construction of the Sako stock makes this very manageable. Not since my old Ruger M77 .300 WinMag have I found a stock that so manages recoil. BC of the bullets I use average around the .510 mark. As oposed to the 250 yd. zero you've been mentioning, I use a 300 yd. zero. This puts me about 2.5" high at 100 yds. and a 7" drop at 400 yds. The bullets still going 2752 fps at that distance, which is within optimum speeds prescribed by the manufacturer and tested at the range by me for reliable and predictable expansion of the bullets I use. Actually, the best expansion takes place anywhere from the 275 yd. mark to about 385 yds. The gun will certainly hit farther then this, but for bullet sake, I try to keep shots within this range when I can. Less of a concern for me, but just for kicks, the bullet's still working up 3024 fpe at 400 yds. In a 10 mph wind, drift is under an inch at 200 yds., 2.1" at 300 yds. and comes in right around 7" at 400 yds. For anything down to deer size game and the ranges I'm most comfortable with, it's pretty much hold on the kill zone and the gun does the rest. It's truely been a joy to work with. Quite a step up from my 7mm STW, but not near the monster that everyone would make it out to be. With that said, I agree 100% with you, if I couldn't shoot the Warbird accurately, I would certainly move down the recoil scale to something smaller. Before the Warbird workup even started I was in contact with my local gunsmith already with the muzzle break that I had planned to have installed on this bugger. As is, I was pleased to find the brake not necessary for both monetary as well as muzzle blast reasons. From the moment I started working with her, it's been a total rush. Fun little gun. Talk Later. >> klallen

I remember an article years ago, I think in the Rifleman, that suggested that you can hunt anything in the world with a .22 LR, a .30/06, a .458 Winchester and a 2 3/4" twelve gauge shotgun. Hard to argue with, but think how lackluster the gun and publishing businesses would be. Also we would all have to take up bowling or stamp collecting, or worse, have more time for "honey-do" projects! curmudgeon

One thing for sure ya cant beat a good 30-06!! I have a 338 mag now and it shoots great, and I like it. I have a 7mm and like it very much, but for anything I have ever had the oportunity to hunt and 06 would do about any of it. bcat<P>------------------<BR>If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes <BR> <A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting <B>Homepage</B> </A><BR><A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com" TARGET=_blank>HuntAndLodge.com</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.recworld.com/boykin" TARGET=_blank>www.recworld.com/boykin</A>

E You make some excellent points as well as does stush and JJ.<P>And to think that all I used to qualify at 800 meters was a 308 Win. AFP makes an excellent point about choosing between velocity and BC. The other thing I get out of having watched this thread since it started was that the issue of hunting vs. shooting is as much an issue as the ranges themselves. In case anyone here has missed it in the past I have been more of a proponent of good hunting skills and woodcraft followed by shooting practice than most. If a good bow-hunter can make a successful stalk on a Pronghorn or Sheep then why do so many insist on thinking they need the flattest trajectories. Case in point. When the true long range shooters of the world call on their weapon of choice they go for the one with a consistent trajectory (by far not the flattest) and minimal recoil. I have done the same thing to people as JJ mentioned with handing someone a rifle "supposedly ready to go" and had a good laugh at the results of the click of the pin. This by the way is also the best way I know to cure folks of a bad flinch problem. It takes two. One to single load each round and not always load a round. Then observe the shooter. The one doing the loading must also possess a poker face, patience and control to keep from laughing.<P>------------------<BR><B>"The only thing to fear is fear itself"</B>