As an extension of last year's thread https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...1665/bullets_from_plainsgame#Post7841665 but I thought I'd rather start a new topic.


On this year's cull hunt I took my 6XC loaded with 105gr VLD Hunting, 105gr AMaxes, and 90gr Accubonds, and here are some samples of the bullets I was able to recover:


105 gr AMax recoverd from Springbuck. They would exit about 50pct of the time.


Berger recovered from Springbuck. They would exit about 75pct of the time and were better killers than the AMaxes.
My colleague used 80gr TTSX factory loads in his 243 and they seemed to kill the Springbucks at least as well, if not better, than the Bergers, which I found surprising as many of the shot taken were beyond 300yds and monolitics seem to work better the higher the impact speed.

Also shot several warthogs with the Bergers and they stayed inside 75pct of the time. Even with well placed shots most of the times they took off on a 50-100 yd dead run on which most of the time we were not able to find any blood.
The Accubonds were better killers here, passing through on three out of four warthogs, and dropping them where they stood or almost.

I forgot to mention that I am not tryin to destroy anybody's cult for any particular bullet brand, just to share my experience and pictures of recovered bullets that at least for me are always fun to look at.

I will have to continue later, sorry.



Alvaro

Placing the shots carefully and keeping them inside 300 meters, I stretched thing a little and shot 10 wildebeest cows and gemsbok.





I used Bergers and Accubonds alternatevely and did not get one single pass through. Bergers killed very efficiently, penetrating a couple of inches of whatever they found on their way, and blowing uo inside. Accubonds did not kill so well and 3 out of five animals required finishing shots in spite of the almost perfect bullet placement.


Incidentally, I had this Berger perform rather conventionally. It was found under the skin of the opposite side, on the blue wildwebeest of the above photo.

This is how Accubonds and Bergers typically looked like...





My colleague used a 7mm with 160gr Accubonds factory loads. If memory serves, out of ten gemsbok and blue wildebeest only one passed through. They killed better than their little 90gr sisters from my 6XC, but not so much better than you might expect, and not any better than a well placed Berger.

This is what a 160gr Accubond would tipycally look like.



Hoping you enjoyed the photos,

Alvaro

Thank you for the update. Loving the AB's!

Thanks for taking the time to post the results.

So if you to pick one bullet of the 3 for game up to the size you killed on this cull, what would be your pick?

Lonny,

I would say the Berger, followed by the Accubonds.

I did not shoot any of the bigger stuff with any A-Maxes so I can't tell how would they do, though,

I swapped from one bullet to another without telling my hunting buddy which bullet I was shooting each time, and would ask him by the end of the day which one he thought had been a better killer. In his totally unbiased opinion, Bergers were best, too.

Interesting

Thank BBerg for the review and pictures. It gives us real performance on how they perform. Great job!

Cool, thanks.

I just got back from Africa. Was shooting 160 TTSX from a 338 Federal. They performed fantastically! Here is the one I recovered. It was from the off-side hide of a Waterbuck. Bullet went through ribs on both sides.

Thank you, gentlemen!

Maybe others chime in and show us their latest recoveries

PRM:
Very good photos, thank you, and that TTSX looks perfect!
I have learned that the way a recovered bullet looks may not have much to do with how it kills, just take a look at some of my Bergers, but who does not like a recovered bullet look like yours!

Here are a couple of .375 cal 270gr triple shocks recovered from a Gemsbok....you don't recover many but most look like this....

or like yours, AFTERUM!

That's nice and all, but I'm more concerned how they do with water jugs...........

My experience with 180 gr Accubonds on elk is they disintegrate. I find the jacket much like what your photo shows and the core can be about anywhere. On one elk, I later found the core in the heart. The meat destruction around the entry hole is massive. I usually find the jacket on the near side of the elk unless it's in the ribs. Out of 3 elk I've shot with them, I have yet to have a 1 shot kill.

What caliber/weight was that? I've considered using the 180 or 200 AB in .338

300 WSM, 180 gr. If you're trying to save on the high price of premium bullets, I find that Speer Hotcores perform much better, better penetration and weight retention than AB's. I've shot at least 7 or 8 elk with Hotcores and in my experience, they hold up about as well as Partitions.

What weight grain Rock Chuck? Kinda surprised to see the Accubonds not get a better report card. powdr

I must be shooting the wrong bullets. Haven't recovered 1 in over 10 years. Darned Barnes!

180

7 or 8 years ago, I shot a medium sized bull that was quartering toward me. I used a Speer 180 gr Hotcore and hit him in the shoulder. The bullet missed the long bone but just clipped the scapula, went backwards taking out a lung, all the way through the stomach that was full of the morning feed, and I found it in the haunch on the far size. After all that, it still weighed over 150gr. I was impressed.

I seldom recover one, but I will say the hides on those Waterbucks are real thick! Combine that with a bullet that expanded to over .7" and pushing through bone entering and exiting and then hitting the off-side hide is going to be a tough challenge.

Blacktailer,

If you haven't recovered any Barnes bullets, then you haven't shot a lot of game--or have used bigger bullets.

They do penetrate deeply, but they aren't magic. In fact, I analyzed the notes from my hunting a couple years ago, and have recovered a higher percentage of "monolithic" rifle bullets than Nosler Partitions, whether TSX's, E-Tips, or whatever. This may be due to using somewhat lighter monos than Partitions, but may not.

In my limited experience with the 160s and 185s, I'd say the 185 definitely penetrates a bit better, but the internal damage by the 160 seems a bit more impressive. Both result in very dead animals. Looking forward to using a Partition on elk this Fall.

My limited experience on 12 head of African game. These are the only bullets caught from my 7RM w/160 accubonds, 71.5 Retumbo going 3100 @ the muzzle. Shots from 100-160 yards or so. One shot kills except for one oryx. I could't have asked for much better performance.

[img:left][/img]

[img:left][/img]

Hot Core isn't even in the same league as a Nosler Ballistic Tip and a Accubond is tougher than a BT.

Very cool; thanks for taking the time for this!

I haven't used Ballistic Tips on elk because Nosler makes them for deer sized stuff. They make the PT & AB for elk & moose.
From their website:

I have used BT's on elk. Specifically the 30 cal180gr BT and at speeds much faster than. WSM. Works very well, even on bone. It also has the same jacket as the 180 AB minus the bonding..
It's funny you slam AB's but pump Hotcores which are one of the most fragile cup and cores out there.

Well... eerr.... here are a few samples of .416, .284, .264, and .224 ...

Not me, I have recovered fewer TSX than lead cores including partitions.
Just goes to show that there are no absolutes.

How is that? An Accubond is a bonded Ballistic Tip is it not?

I've shot a number of elk with both the AB and the Hotcore. There's no comparison to how well they hold up. The Hotcores will roll up in a ball but the weight is still there. The AB's come apart.

Last fall I got my hands on a bunch of Deep Curls. I shot 1 elk with one but I spined it and that's not a good test of what they will do. I'll be using them this year, too. I have about 250 of them left and when they're gone, they can't be replaced.

IME, only about 40% of an accubond, or partition for that matter, "come apart". Just the way they were designed. As long as there are Noslers being sold I will never see the need for anything Speer.

If you look at the OP's pics, you'll see AB's with nothing but the jacket. The core is completely gone. That's what I've seen when I've used them.

Rock Chuck,

Go back and look again. The ones with the core missing are Bergers.

AccuBonds, like Partitions, are designed to retain differing amounts of weight, depending on the bullet's intended purpose. In general the bigger they get, the higher the % retained. Small AB's usually used for deer may retain only 50% or so, while heavy ones may retain 80%. In my collection is a 250-grain 9.3 AccuBond recovered from a grizzly that retained 83%.

If you reread BBergs post, he said that is how AB's and Bergers typically look. I'd be willing to bet the one that just looks like a jacket is the Berger. BBerg will have to answer that though.

The 160 AB pic that he posted, looks pretty much identical to all the AB's I've ever caught. Never had one come apart even when shooting them at over 3000 fps into dry newsprint at 20 yards.

EXACTLY why is use T/TSXs almost exclusively now.

Please explain the logic used to get from point A...


To point B, given Federal touts the Fusion as a deer bullet.

I do use heavier bullets than most. In Africa 300's or 350's in the 375 and 165's in the 308 and I only use the 308 on the smaller stuff when Mrs Blacktailer lets me barrow it. In NA I also tend to go heavy. I like penetration!

Federal might say that Fusions are for deer but Speer advertizes the Deep Curl as all around and that's what I've gone by.

As far as the OP's pics of the hollow jacket being the Berger, not the AB, the AB's that I've recovered have come out being the hollow jackets.

I'm just going by my own personal experience. Over the last 40 years, I've used a lot of Hotcores, a number of AB's, a few PTs, and 1 single Deep curl on elk. Of the one's that I've recovered, the Hotcores and PT's have penetrated almost the same and have looked about alike with similar weight retention. The AB's have consistently come apart or lost 50% or more of their weight along with massive meat loss. The 1 single Deep Curl hit a spine so it wasn't a good test. Any bullet will drop an elk with a spine shot.

Gentlemen,

The only Berger that kept its core was the one at the end of my second post, below the photo of the unicorned Oryx.

The foot note was:
"Incidentally, I had this Berger perform rather conventionally. It was found under the skin of the opposite side, on the blue wildwebeest of the above photo"

The two photos that followed, at the top of my third post showed two Accubonds and the left overs of one Berger. I said "This is how Accubonds and Bergers typically looked like..."

All Accubonds lost part of their fronts, and as you can see in the photos of the three bullets ended up quite flattened in spite of their long shanks, and retained around 50% of their initial weight.

All Bergers except the one mentioned above were severly damaged by the impact, even on long shots.

The twisted jacket on the photo of the three bullets is a Berger. Others were not found, and I looked so hard for them that I believe they were turned to shrapnel, as I could only find very little pieces.

The only Barnes TSX/MRX/TTSX I've recovered are from water jugs. Line enough up and you will catch them. In elk, deer and antelope they have all made two holes, including lengthwise shots on deer.

Only three elk taken with AccuBonds, a 150g from a .30-06 and two with a 225g from a .338WM. The .338 shots were broadside while the the 150g was base of the neck and angling back. All exited.

If you count a hog as plains game, one TTSX caught, by a medium-size boar. I shot him once through the chest, and he dropped, but lay kicking a bit. His back was toward me, so I spined him as a finisher. 120gr, from a 7mm-08

Believe it or not, that 120 TTSX is about the only thing I can't get to shoot - 1" in my T3...I'd love to try some of those puppies out. The 120 BT does a nice job though instead. Textbook stuff TxNCal for sure.

Rock Chuck,

Was there a specific time-frame where you were ending up with empty jackets with AccuBonds? Or, rather, when the AB's were purchased?

I ask this because there was a period after AccuBonds were introduced, when demand was so high that one person on the Nosler assembly line decided to speed things up--without asking anybody. What he did resulted in the bond not "taking," and some faulty bullets went out, and they'd lose cores.

jwp,

I didn't say my (slightly) higher percentage of recovered mono bullets over Partitions was an absolute, and even suggested a reason for it.

Another possible reason is that I probably tend to use monos more when hunting bigger game. Most people hunt mostly deer, and even most elk taken (cows and young bulls) aren't all that big. But animals over 600 pounds do tend to stop more expanding bullets, of any kind.

I have never lost an elk with accubonds and the bullets have always been boringly similar, but then again, I have had excellent results with Remington Corelokts which some people find hard to believe...

It's been a while since I bought them, maybe 4 or 5 years ago but that's a guess. I used them for 3 or 4 seasons then used the rest for target practice. I'll admit that they're VERY accurate in my rifle. They also killed every elk or deer I shot with them but with the elk it always took a 2d shot.

Thanks for the info. My guess is that they were some of the bad ones.

I never encountered any myself, but ran into a few people that did, and also heard about what Nosler traced the problem to. The results you describe are exactly what usually occurred, though often some of the bad bullets also lost their plastic tips in the boxes during shipping.

The problem didn't last long, and Nosler traced as many as they could through distributors, but some inevitably ended up sold. The company would replace them with correctly-made bullets if people returned them.

I had several tips come out while in the rifle's mag. I figured it was from recoil and I wasn't impressed.

A mature bull bison running hard away a 300 RUM firing a180 TSX hit far back I. The rib cage exiting the brisket. Bull hit the ground and never kicked or quivered again. 400 grain noseler partition federal factory load 416 Rigby straight broad side rib cage shot no exit. Bull hit the ground and attempted to get up, shot again.
3 deer shot on the right side of the brisket 180 TSX bullet fired from a 300 win took out 3 to 4 ribs and exited the rump, never ever had a 180 lead core including a partition do that. The 3 were about 100 yards away. One shot the same way length wise at 300 yards and the 180 TSX was recovered under the hide of the rump.

Rock Chuck,

The tips coming off were definitely indicate you got some of the bad ones.

Nosler constantly tests the bullets coming off their assembly lines for both accuracy and terminal performance, but with the number of bullets they make some mistakes get through between tests. Very few of the defective AccuBonds made it into hunters' hands, but one of the interesting things about hunting is that some people consider the performance of bullets THEY used (often only one) as typical of ALL the bullets of that make and type, despite considerable evidence the performance wasn't typical.

If ALL Nosler AccuBonds performed in the way yours did, then they would have disappeared from the marker years ago. Obviously, both from the fact they're very popular and the evidence of recovered bullets from this thread, they don't perform that way.

jwp,

Yes, mono bullets tend to penetrate deeper than lead-cored bullets and exit more often, but individual instances don't mean much. I could list a bunch of such examples that wouldn't prove anything either. One would be two buck mule deer. One was shot lengthwise with a 140-grain Partition from a 7x57, and dropped right there. The other was shot lengthwise with a 168-grain TSX from .300 Winchester and went another 150 yards, requiring a finisher. Both bullets were recovered from the opposite end of the deer.

What was the difference? Who knows?

As I noted earlier, I've recovered a higher percentage of monolithic bullets than Nosler Partitions, and the sample of each isn't small, since between us my wife and I have killed 100+ animals with each kind of bullet.

But I also provided a couple of explanations of why that might be so, despite monolithics penetrating deeper. As noted, I tend to use heavier Partitions than monos (though not always), and also tend to use monos on heavier game (though again, not always). But I haven't broken down the statistics from my hunting notes (which include not just my animals but those of hunters I've accompanied) enough to see any trend. But if you want to keep telling anecdotes to "prove" how superior monos are to lead-cores bullets, I can keep telling anecdotes about lead-cores that penetrated VERY deeply and killed VERY quickly.

You are the one who said there are no absolutes, which I totally agree with. But apparently from your stories you do believe monolithics are absolutely superior to lead-cored bullets, a belief I don't share. The characteristics of monos are often useful and desirable, but not absolutely superior. In fact, I find lead-cored bullets superior for some kinds of hunting, and not because of individual instances but because of long-term trends I've documented in my hunting notes.

I have long term trends as well since I have been hunting since grade school and am now 63. Just sighting examples same as you often do. I do prefer monos for my serious hunting but that is another topic.

Though not African PG, this 140-g TTSX is from an old mule deer buck hit at about a 100 yds from a 284 with a mv of 3k. The POI was right at the throat-chest junction and it was recovered alongside the scrotum. One of the reason I am using this bullet almost exclusively.
I have also found this bullet with R17 very accurate in my 284 and have at least one pic of a 1.75", three-shot group fire at 400 yards.



Of the few TSX/TTSX I've found here are two more (If I can post them), both 270-grainers from a 375 at a mv of about 2700 fps. This on hit an old mare zebra (? 800 lbs or so) at about 120 yds on the point of the shoulder, broke both scapula and everything in between of course, but was caught by the off-side hide.



This one hit a thorn branch about 20yds in front of a nice water buck, stayed the course but traversed his chest side-ways. I was amazed it stayed strictly on course. This was about a 100 yd shot also.



These are from NA PG. On the left is a 405-gr hard cast (45-70) at about 1800 fps and from a cow elk at about sixty yards. I was very surprised to find it figured it'd sail at least into Wyoming. It appears it tumbled which is also surprising since it is an "almost solid."

The middle is another 375 TSX from a gemsbok at under a 100 yds, having traveled from stern to stem. On the right are the 283-gr (IIRC) Norma Oryxs, very good bonded bullets, both recovered from about 900 lb buffalo heiffer on broadside running shots from a double rifle in 9.3x74. IIRC, mv is about 2300 fps. The distance was only about seventy yards but they do expand nicely. The buff was killed with the first shot through the lungs but if you have a double rifle, well,...



I've taken about fifteen head now with the TSX/TTSX and these are the only ones I've recovered thus far. The longest shot was right at five hundred yards, again with the 284 but with the 150-gr TTSX. It was broadside through the chest but still gave a "quarter-sized" exit.

I would say your expiereance is typical of someone who knows what they are looking at in regards to bullet performance.

For one reason or another I have to admit that I have used almost no Partitions on game at all... Thinking this would be a good occassion I ordered a box of theem in 85gr, only to find I could not make them group better that 1.5" for three shots at 100 meters and 2" for five shots.
Hmmm...
So I ordered a box of 100gr Partitions thinking these might do better in the barrel's 1:8" twist, with the same results.
Maybe something in the middle...
And I tried them in 95gr with the same results again.
And I tried 80gr TTSX and neither.
And then 90gr E-Tips and got the worst results with 2" three shot groups at 100 meters.
Finally I loaded some Accubonds as they had produced 1" three shots groups quite regularly.
For your information, the gun shoots 105gr Hunting VLDs and AMaxes into 0.5" at 100 meters al day long.
I don't know very well to think, as I have never seen anything like this before!

I used to use 165 grain X bullets exclusively in my 300 Wby. I killed a lot of deer and quite a few elk with this bullet- at least 10 bulls. I never recovered a single one. I shot a nice muley buck with one and the bullet broke the neck and traveled most of the length of the backstraps where I found it. Looked like it was supposed to. I haven't used a lot of partitions but don't think I ever recovered a single one of those! This includes a number of cow elk shot with a 250 savage and 100 grain partitions. All were pass-throughs.

I have shot a number of elk with 200 grain soft points out of my 300 Wby- all under 100 yds. Almost all the softpoints were found under the off-side skin. The 200 grainers included Hotcors and Barnes originals. I saw no real difference in killing but the Barnes would ball up better.

The biggest thing I have killed with an Accubond is a 1000# feral horse. The bullet was a 130 out of a 260 Rem. The horse made it 75-80 yards. There was no exit. I did not find the bullet as I did a gutless method to extract the better cuts.

I have guided a lot of elk hunts and seen a lot of kills. I found most bullets work pretty good and some I think are terrible (Federal red box soft points) on heavy game.

I wish I had a bunch of pretty recovered bullets to display but I have recovered only a few and I didn't think to keep them from those days.

I shot a large feral bull (1800#+) with a 180 grain X bullet expecting it to collapse at the shot. What a joke. All I did was get his attention. He stood there looking around for what bit him! The second shot got him running. I then pumped two 220 grain mono solids (A-square) into him with no results. He was closing in on me and I was thinking that maybe the african guys know something I don't about using big, heavy caliber bullets on big heavy dangerous game. Luckily for me my buddy caught him in the ear with a round from his 30-06 and piled him up!

I just returned from a plains game hunt in the Eastern Cape of SA

I was using 150 grn Accubonds at just a tad over 2850fps out of my 30-06

Between my wife and myself we killed 10 animals with this rifle

Impala............recovered in rear after over 30"
Impala............through
Warthog.........through
Blue Wildebeest......3 shots....2 through 3rd bullet unrecoverd
Waterbuck..........2 shots through
Kudu.......1 shot frontal.......unrecoverd
Gemsbock...........4 shots 3 through 1 unrecoverd
Black Wildebeest.......1 shot through
Blesbok.......1 shot through
Bushbuck.......2 shots through

It's incredible how tough and stretchy elk hide is. That's not exactly a varmint load. I've found a lot of 300 WSM bullets under the hide like that.
You can understand the need for a tough hide, though, when you consider the bulls fighting during the love-in season. They use lots of sharp pointy weapons.

Elk hide is tough, but the neck/shoulder hide of some African plains game animals of the same general size is even tougher--and thicker.

I guided a gemsbok hunt in New Mexico. That bull had skin 3/4" thick on the neck. I couldn't believe it! Better eating than elk too!!

Yep on both points!

Elk can be great eating--if you kill the right elk, at the right time of year. But the meat of tropical animals like gemsbok tends to be more reliable, year-round, even the big bulls.

Agreed! Oryx steaks are the best piece of meat I've ever eaten, period.

I gotta say they were great but must up the anty to Zebra as the best

A bunch of African game tastes great. In my experience the taste of many changes more due to the individual animal and the way it's prepared than the animal itself--plus the appetite and preferences of the eater!

yes....I liked steinbok the best....didn't get to try zebra and I wish I had......

Thanks for the report Ted.

Any complaints with the 150's on how the performed and killed?

What did your PH think of AB's?

From my count, it looks like 4 of the AB's were found or lost inside the animal?

1 was recovered and 3 unrecoverd

My PH loves Accubonds and the 150's killed everything with no complaints

Agreed. If he used bigger, better bullets at a higher velocity , there would be no worry of lead-lumps inhospitable to eating meat..