I have been following another thread on this site with stunned amazement and lots of laughs. I find it unbelievable that the judgement used to justify some things has so little logical or factual backup!

Lets see where to start..............

I guess since a .223 and a .22/250 shoot the same bullet and it could be said that either one placed in the exact same location on an animal would result in the same outcome they can be considered about the same. Sure the 22/250 is a bit faster and flatter but from a performance stand point what they heck they both get the job done.

a 22/250 and a .243 will both kill a deer if the bullets are good and the impact on each deer is identical so I suppose these two from a purely functional perspective can be considered the same. Both flat shooting and both will kill a deer with equal shot placement. After all I saw a very good friend of mine shoot a mule deer buck with a 22/250 in Idaho that was so far away after the shot the deer ran about 30 yards I was just about to say it was a miss when we could clearly hear the bullets impact and see the deer falling. Only the deer was 30 yards from the impact! The sound coming back from the impact was a hella long time compared to any prior experience like that I have had! It was the longest shot on a big game animal I have ever seen in my life and it was with a 22/250! Certaily much flatter shooting and at least as effective as a .243 would have been capable of!

Well a .243 has killed lots of deer and elk even black bear and sheep, not much difference then a 25/06 right? With equal shot placement they both work about the same........Woulden't ya say?

The previous thread says that the 25/06 and the 270 are for all practical matters about the same again with equal shot placement. Well Jack Oconner himself said that the 270 was the functional equal to the 7mm mag and the 30/06 so long as good bullets were used and proper shot placement.

A hot loaded 30/06 with a 24" barrel can equal a factory loaded 300 win mag with a 24" barrel or come pretty darn close with the same bullet. So for all practical purposes they are the same to about 300 yards or maybe even further!

Since a 300 mag can shoot a 200 grain bullet faster then the 338 can. I suppose these two have no real practical difference either. After all if you shoot an elk with either on dead center in the chest will the outcome be any different? Come to think of it that 338 with a 250 grain bullet is right on the heels of the 358 Norma mag. Only a minimal 100fps difference with the same bullet weight and construction!

Well by that measure is the 358 norma any real difference then a 375HH shooting a 270 grain bullet? Certainly not they would both have equally good results with identical shot placement and bullet construction.

Since the 375HH is the legal minimum for all dangerous game in Africa by people who know this business then why use the 416 rem mag? The 416 cannot be much better if the 375HH is legal? I suspect with identical shot placement and with quality bullet any buffalo shot through the heart with either will die just as well. ......No?

The 416 and the 458 both shoot a 400 grain bullet about the same speed so where is the difference there? Gotta figure these two with equal shot placement would also have similiar results.........right?

Hmmmmm this is interesting. I suppose since the .223 is the same starting at the bottom and follwing this theory all the way to the 458 I can just get the .223 cause if the shot placement is identical with the same quality bullet the results should be the same right? Why use the 458 on and Elephant when the 223 has so much less recoil and is a lighter gun?
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So where is the break then? Legally there are laws that actually define these things in some countries and certainly within many states. In my home state of Washington you cannot shoot a deer with a 22/250 but you can in Idaho. In my adopted home of South Africa you cannot hunt the big four with a gun less then 375 caliber. So some agencys have set official limits for these things.

Speaking just for myself and with the many animals I have been involved with as game manager, Alaska guide and Africa professional hunter, There is another level that I see for big game that will be quite controversial for many of you. However I don't think that big game especially the bigger species in North America are well suited to sub 30 caliber cartridges. I know of and have seen far more animals lost and or wounded with sub 30 caliber rifles in my life then all the lost and wounded larger then 30 caliber problems combined.

It's not that sub 30 caliber guns don't kill well, they sure do. The real issue is not the killing power or their trajectory capability it's the locating of the dead animals that becomes the issue. In my career and in my personal life I have probably seen 10 animals lost with sub 30 caliber guns for every single lost animal over 30 caliber. So it's my view that rifles for big game in the USA and even in the world should begin at 30 caliber. This is for hunters who take this persuit of hunting big game seriously. However it may even be more important for those who are not as serious because they tend to have less skills and may need the extra help with blood tracking. Since when did this become like fishing where we are trying to land the biggest fish with the lightest tackle? There ain't no catch and release here folks! These are lives we are talking about and a limited resource. You just can't keep shootin and killing game til you find one down before you notch your tag. I would like to know what cartridges and calibers folks would turn to if there tag was only good for a single shot rather then an animal in posetion

I just think trying to make a smaller cartridge into a bigger cartridge or a smaller bore into a bigger bore with all the mental gymnastics used in some of these posts gives me a good laugh. Following this logic nobody would need anything more then a 22LR if you take the theories used back far enough!

I think I'd second that!

Your analogy with fishermen using the lightest tackle to land an over sized fish is a good one and I have used it myself.

I think some of the threads can go off in all directions based on the interpretation of the question.

Your suggestion that a 30+ caliber is the better choice for most larger game is imminently sensible. The problem with being sensible is that this thread probably won't go too far and won't provide the entertainment some others do.

Now, if you had asked what was the best .30 caliber for that single rifle choice, then we would still be replying to this one into next year.

AGW

1: Placement
2: Projectile selection
3: Cartridge headstamp

That's the order of importance,in stopping heartbeats.

Myself,I don't think head shooting Freezer Meat mandates a 20mm MK12,stoked with MK106 Mod O (HEI).

Nor can I see myself in a tissy,over what someone else finds fortune in.

Gimme a 7-08 and an X and the rest is easy......................

nice post JJ, personally i like heavy bullets at maderate velocity. the 338-06 is about my ideal cartridge. i like my 8x57, 30-06 and 45-70. i want to put together a 416 taylor so i can cheaply lob 400 grain bullets at 2200fps. but i am not a long range shooter. i have more fun sneaking up on critters than shooting them. a nice 180gr plus bullet somewhere between 1800 and 3000 fps suits me just fine depending on what cartridge im using. simple, high sectional density bullets do great things when not driven to hyper velocity. if im not mistaken this logic has been around for alot more years than ive been on this earth. so personally ill sneak a lil closer or be content i passed up the shot.

my wife is a lil different though, she shoots cartidges like 250 Sav, 260 Remmy, 6.5x55 and 7x57 but i have alot more padding on my shoulder than she does and would rather have a light kicking rifle than anything.

When my immigration application was accepted I had to thin my rifle rack for logistical reasons.

I culled 3 x .416 Weatherbys, a .458, a .416 Remingtion and a .45/70 and that was only in the 40 calibers, so I am guilty of being a little heavy handed myself.

As much as I like the 7mm's, the .30's do hit harder to a degree you can notice in the field.

I think a really good thread would ask the difference between the various .338's based on field experience. Wouldn't that get interesting?

I think the 338Ultra stoked with a 210XLC is the most impressive sumbitch I've ever hit the switch upon.

Despite that glowing accolade,it is largely a niche tool,within my stable.

As to the 7mm vs 30cal debate,I've always said I'd not point a 30 at somethin',that'd make me balk at the 7em-em.

I'm a Seven Slut,but house enough 30's,that I can play on both sides of the fence.

'Course I can shoot a lil' bit and that don't hurt...................

True. I expect you log 5,000 rounds a year?

A guy with that much practice, a custom rilfe that shoots bbug holes, and the trajectory of his bullet taped to his stock (complete with silly-wet turrets) can make a 7-08 sing.

But, frankly, my dear--you don't matter. You are so for onto the side of the highly competent shooter, that caliber selection is unimportant. Hell, Karamojo Bell killed elephants with a 7x57 (the 7-08's ballistic twin). he does not matter either.

Its my freind Pat, that matters (an that JJ was speaking to). He goes "hunting" every year. But he still owns the same box of 180 grain 30-06 remmy Express ammo that he bought in 1994. Pat needs to shoot a big caliber. That way, if he ever sees a deer, he has a chance of finding the blood trail.

If he was shooting a 223, trailing would be impossible.

BMT

Alot of the "experimenting" with various cartridges I think is all about trying new stuff and keeping it interesting. My 25-06 kills deer so well because it is accurate and easy to shoot, therefore, the bullets typically find their intended mark. same for my kids 250-3000, they are 6 for 6 with that one, all one shot kills. they are not afraid to shoot that rifle. still, I think the benchmark for comparison in big game rifles is the 30-06 with 180 grain bullets. some better for some applications but at 100 years old, it's still around for a very good reason.

Well, heck...

I guess I'll eventually just have to get one of each and see if there really are any differences... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like good advice!

I see more noobs shooting cartridges above their abilities,than I do in the realm of their relative capability.

No shame in a guy running somethin' middle of the road,IMHO.

I can't recollect a noob with a 223 in his mitts,fixing to Rule the World and fixated upon rewriting the B&C Record Book . What I don't savvy,are guys making the mundane difficult?

The Science of stopping heartbeats isn't an unsolved mystery,though many seem bent upon making it seemingly as difficult as possible. The pendelum I see,is swung towards the more capacious offerings and that ain't helping their results,so I'm not quick to pin a malady upon a mechanical shortcoming,as much as practical shortcomings involving practice and common sense.

Long way of sayin' a big fancy miss,is just that..................

I'm not immune from deviating from the beaten path.

But no matter what I'm yerkin' the trigger upon,the relative order of importance for Dealing Death,remains the same.

Placement
Boolit selection
Chambering

The Turdy Aught Six never much impressed me,despite my killing more than a few things with one.

It operates in a realm with much company................

I see this go both ways depending on your favorite expert. Les Bowman used to say he sees way more game lost by guys showing up with big bore magnums than anything else.

-Lou

Les Bowman was correct. He was a great man left a big pair of shoes.

There are two sides to this whole story I think. There is on the one side a number of hunters who, for whatever reason hunt with whatever rifle they end up purchasing. Without doing any research for themselves they rely almost totally on the person behind the gunstore counter to advise them on what to use. This can have alot of different consequences depending on the knowledge of said person behind the counter. I find that wherever I purchase rifles, I always am more informed than the person who is selling, but than I would consider myself in the second category. And the second category are those who have made hunting and shooting a very indepth hobby. And depending on the individual there can be alot of different consequenses in this catagory. I personnally respect the game that I hunt. Enough that although I may be experianced enough to take game with smaller than normal calibers, I will not and always use something appropriate for the game being persued. THere are others in this category though who know better, but for there own reasons try to make themselves look good by using smaller calibers so they can say "hey look what I can do with a .223!" . The best that can be done is to try and educate those in the first category, and not placate or encourage those who fall in the second and should know better. I say use enough gun for the job.

Rob

Here is an interesting scenerio that actually happend and I'm afraid to say in the various locations I find myself in from time to time is not that unusual.

I was visiting the XYZ paper company in Cowlitz co. Wa. (one of the big dogs) during my visit there for business I was sitting in the maintaince break room with the 10-12 fellas who manage the care of the mill. Now I have been going to this place for many years now for my business and several of the guys and I have spoken at length about hunting. These core of maintaince guys are in some kind of 7mm magnum cult, but it's not a cult about how good the cartridge is or how well it works. It's a twisted bizzaro cult. Let me expain.

During many past visits the conversations about various guns would come up with the typical magazine hype and misguided quotes about ballistics and other facts. I'm way outnumbered here because I'm not a member of this "7mm mag cult" quite the opposite if they knew my feelings about the cartridge I would be thier anti-christ.

So having set this up for you, you can see they find no fault in their favorite cartridge. Which when you include the "bubba factor" involved makes this sooooo much fun for me. During one of the conversations about 2 weeks into the elk season one fella says that his elk was shot at an honest 500 yards paced off across a clearcut. I said he must have a hell of a good stride to keep that line straight when the clearcut dropped down about 100 feet and then back up the other side. He said yeah well it was 500 yards paced maybe it was only 475 straight line. Hmmmm (bubba factor) so I let it go and he keeps talking about just how tough this elk was. He shot the first time and kicked up crap under it's feet so holding high he shoots and this time sees crap fly up behind the elk. No to his credit he still knew it was too low and not shooting over(surpised the heck out of me) So he claims to have held three feet over the back and then "sho nuff" (his words) he plugged that thing. The elk jumped in the air and took off at which time they shot and hit it two more times(?). Now to get over there somehow with the pickup truck. When they get to to opposite road they see the tracks in the snow and one tiny spot of blood so now they are sure it's been hit at least one time. Following the tracks in the snow he sees an elk ahead(must be the right one) and he shoots again hitting it quartering away. Man these elk are tough(his words) so they continue to follow but it's gone a long way. One guy heads back for the truck to move it ahead to the next road. The other keeps following and sees the elk yet again and shoot straight up the tail end. Now that elk is wobbly and headed for the next county. Then he hears a shot and another shot and then a third shot, and silent. When he arrives at the road his buddy is there claiming to have shot it three times less then 50 yards away.

So they find this dead bull about 75-100 yards from the road. They claim it was one tough old bull that took 7 shots to bring down and it was so tough that the meat was completely blown to bits and all shot up through both shoulders and the hind quarter. Yet it still lived and was able to run all that way. The bizzaro part is that they adore the 7mm mag so much and find no fault with it. Even though at least 7 rounds put into the bull and it still lived and ran all that way. They never once considered that the bullets used were the wrong choice or the cartridge used at such close range for the followup shots was too fast for the construction of said bullets.

The pride in their faces was like nothing I have seen before and the great performance of these 7mm mags was the only reason they were able to bring the beast down. In one guys words, I'm glad I bought this instead of a 30/06 that 30/06 would have been worthless on a bull like this that took 7 shots to kill. I aksed about the recovered bullets and they laughed! They cackeled out of control! YOU CANNOT RECOVER A 7MAG BULLET! In his words " the bullets are so fast that when they hit an elk they explode like litte hand grenades blowing huge killing wounds into them. That's why these 7mags are the best elk rifle ever! Nothing else has the explosive bullets like the 7mag does. My silly reply are you sure that's good? What........he says! Without that kind of power how do you think we would have ever killed that bull and found it? All the other guys use 300 mags or 338's and those bullets just zip right though without any damage. .............( wow what a concept)

Not to be outdone one of the other fellas in the 7mm mag cult starts with Oh yeah we shot that one up at Hansen creek two years ago and it took five shots for a young cow, that story went on much the same way! Yet they must have a shrine someplace in the mill with a small carpet in front that they can kneel on it and pray to the lord of 7mm magdom. I'm simply dumbstruck at the lack of skill and knowledge infront of me, .........Yet they are bold and confident in there beliefs that what they are doing is somehow way ahead of the expert level of PNW elk hunters.

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So lets put a few things into perspective here. Any young guy coming to work at this place will learn his ballistics and his gun choice from these guys and will be sucked into the hype and non-sense surrounding these kinds of guns and skills. This is where many of the people get their information and form their beliefs and undrstanding of rifles.

The great majority of people choose a cartridge based on "feeling and Emotion" learned from a father or other older mentor. In some cases from a cult of co-workers as described above. Darn few have ever sat down and worked out the differences between cartridges or been able to spend time with a guy who has a lot of experience. There are a number of folks on this site who I have a lot of respect for. But we may not agree 100% on the details. We certainly agree on the majority of the issues. These guys would be a huge and powerful resource to help set the mind straight for people with limited experience.

I have had a number of Emails from guys with limited experience in the last couple years who have lots of questions. Certainly I'm biased towards some things and for sure these feelings carry a lot of weight in my responses. But they hopefully don't carry the "bubba factor" of credibility!

JJ, I've read this post twice through now and still fail to see where these fellas using frangible bullets and their apparent desire for explosive impact has a thing to do with the 7mm magnum cartridge. Hell there is a veritable host of ultramagnum class rounds out today in various calibers that used with the right (or rather wrong) bullet will provide explosions to make the cult of the 7 mag green with envy. If these guys were loading 140 TSXs and hitting the elk in the right place they STILL wouldn't be recovering bullets - but they also wouldn't be firing twice or tracking wounded elk...

As an aside I've only seen two elk shot 5 or more times and both were with 30-06s, one with the old original 150 grain silvertips and one with the 150 grain Hornady.

Add me to that list. If that story is what you base your opinion of the 7mag on your wasting alot of cyber space.

Chuck

JJ, interesting topic, and one we should think about more often.
We rarely consider what weight/caliber/trajectory (read speed) we want to use, but instead fuss over the fact that a 30-06 is/must be much better than a 308. That, or the fact that a short action is some huge advantage vs. a long action. Stick's 7mm-08 would be just as effective in his hands if it was a 280, 270, or heaven forbid 30-06.

Our real problem is that we tend to not be logical, but tend to rely on emotions in our choices. Either our dad/uncle/older brother/partner used such and such, and they were successful, so it must be the rifle that does it, or I missed/lost a big one last year so I should get another(generally bigger) rifle.
If we spent more time actually doing something to make us better hunters (practise and exercise being two obvious ones), less money on equipment and more on funding hunting trips, we would be much more effective.
Having said that, I enjoy fussing/dreaming over details of the next ultimate rifle as much as the next guy.
For myself and where I hunt, I've pretty well settled on the 270-280-30-06 class for deer and prefer something bigger for moose. The fact that I might run into a grizzly while deer hunting makes something like a 243 quite impractical. That and the fact that I have had enough hard bloodtrails with something like a 270 to make a smaller caliber largely unappealing. My latest buildup is a 35 whelen which will finish up at less than 8lbs loaded. I believe it will be very practical for moose, black bear, and not unreasonable in heavy cover for deer. It won't be my choice for longer shots in the alpine or across a large clearcut, but I wouldn't feel too awkward with it if that was the rifle I had.
I also am not an advocate of very long range shooting. The concept of shooting an animal at well over 400 yards is not hunting to me, it's shooting, and there is a huge difference, for me. Others may disagree, so be it. I can appreciate the skill involved in long range shooting, but we owe the animals better than that in a hunting situation.
YMMV
Pat

The intent of the post was to show how people get so caught up in a belief that they fail to see the big picture. Light weight fast bullets at close range are a problem most experienced guys would realize and deal with. Yet these guys actually thought it was a good idea. Not only that but because the philosophy was so well embedded into their heads they were promoting this to others as the best combination of components for shooting an elk. When we are talking about what people use and how they come to the ideas about what they shoot many of the ideas come from bizzare back grounds like this.

I sit here shaking my head that anyone would choose to use ballistic tips out of a 7mm mag and shoot an elk in the close range of the cascades!

Penetration, penetration , penetration. Placement, placement, placement.

Some how the penetration thing doesen't come up enough at this site.

People take Deer with Bow and Arrow. If you can get Deer that close and you and your gun can shoot MOA. A .22LR is more then up to the task. Heck it can take down a 1/2 ton cow.

If you are looking for a deer and you only have one day. Go with a .25 and up. Because shot placement is everything and with a .25 and up you have alot more places you can place your shot for a quick and humane kill.

When that Deer of a life time is quartering away at 175yds and about to inter the thick woods. A .223 is buy no means a deer round.

All of the rounds mentioned above will get complete penetration of a paper target and are more then adequate for the job. For busting through a scapula, a rib and penetrating a lung at 200yds. Well the .22s just don't give me that warm cozy feeling.

Launch a 53gr X and get back to me........................

Don't buy it. No .224" 53 gr bullet can hit as hard as a much bigger one.

A while ago I thought of reinventing the wheel so to speak and I had a guy in Utah make up some 88 gr .224" Partitions for my new, do what at 243 does with .224" bullets, wildcat.

So I got a Douglas XX barrel 26" long and twist to shoot that bullet and had RCBS make up forming, reaming, sizing, and seating dies to make the PPC shaped thingy from 6.5 RM brass or if necessary 7mm RM cases. That bullet is very accurate sometimes doing .75 moa thru 200 paces.

So there I am with my chrono and quantities of wet newspaper at the range to blast deadly cavities with my mini (Mickey?) mouse big game rifle. It's steaming the custom partitions out at 3200 fps with a case capacity of 52 grs of whatever.

After making cavities in some of the media I noticed old Ed shooting his Ruger 270 with 140 Interlocks so I asked him to shoot into my media to compare the old cartridge to my miracle round. The distance was about 75 yds and when we went down to take a look it was obvious that the 270 made a far larger cavity and wreaked much more havoc.

Last year I started a topic on AR titled "The case for a large humane wound" and I never hunted big game with the .224 wildcat that I named after myself. I have better guns.

It's the blanket that hangs over the bed that keeps me warm.

I've the luxury of NOT speculating. BT/DT.

It's simply too easy to precisely direct that .224" projectile unwantonly,into a Critter's anatomy,to
dismiss it's effectiveness.

There's yet to be a Deer crafted,that can shrug that abuse.....................

Oh for precise placement then it has a chance but what about imprecise placement?

I'm a huge .30 cal fan. As far as I'm concerned there isn't any animal on earth I couldn't kill with my -06 with 180gr bullets. That's called confidence. And that mixed with common sence and respect for the animal is why I kill what I shoot at. A hunter that's more confident with a .280 will kill and find more animals than if he shot a -06,300mag,.338mag. etc. Common sence and respect for an animal is as important as caliber choice. My 12 year old shoots a 7-08 and I'll bet that he could kill more elk with that 7-08 than he could with a 300mag. Confidence kills. But I've also preached to him that a dead animal tastes alot better than a wounded one that gets away. I don't care how big a critter is. If you can't put your first shot where it counts . THAN DON'T SHOOT!! My friends have all said are you crazy why didn't you shoot! I simply reply that ain't crazy that's respect. CD

How horribly can you miss crucial anatomy,with a 53gr X and have a standard cup/core .243" projectile bail you out?

What is the margin for anatomical error,as denoted by bore diameter? What is the same margin,as denoted by an increase in velocity?

A [bleep] up shot,is a [bleep] up shot and likely the '06 totin' crowd,enjoys the vast percentages in botched harvest,because that is a chambering toted by a goodly percentage of numbnuts.

Same goes Archery. When does a 3-blade trump 2? Why not an 8-blade? What's the best combo of arrow velocity/gross arrow weight,cutting diameter and blade surface,to "fix" a [bleep] shot?

Hypothetical nonsensical rambling rates entertainment value,but it's pretty easy to just pop a few primers,practice as per average conditions/encounters allow and simply punch tags.

Placement
Boolits
Chambering

Little math is required............................

It all leads to matching the bullet/cartridge to the game and hunting conditions. What is the ideal bullet/cartridge combo for a given big game animal under ALL circumstances, not some select ones only.? The answer might be may be the combo that can penetrate that game animal fully from any angle.
My hunting conditions in willows/alder/poplar/spruce often present shots within 30-60 yards.
Presentation of the animal???? Any which way it is standing. Backwards straight on,angles facing, angles rearward, facing straight on.....................................and sometimes, yes indeed broadside. How much time for a shot? Precious little. The animal is very close and ready to take off or already taking off. Only parts of the body are visible.
You must take your shot the best as it is presented. And usually there is an opportunity. It is rare that no shot at all is possible. Waiting for a broaside shot and dilly-dallying will make you a non-consumptive user of wildlife.....................................it makes you a wildlife watcher instead of hunter. Actually I like people like that.
Hunting upland game such as Hungarian Partridges is a big help in speeding reaction time to shoot NOW.
Although my .270 with 130 grain NP will kill my moose with broadside shots fine..........................broadside shots are rare. In that setting as described above, you will not see me with my .270.
I use my .338 with 250 NP @ about 2650 fps.
I will try to break the pelvis, hip, angle through the ribs, under the tail into the chest, whatever it takes to break the animal down or get the vitals.
We are still talking about good shot placement here.
I have heard derisive laughter about using my .338 on moose or elk, since the 06 I am told will do it all. It will indeed if you are willing to pass on some shots I can take.
The 06 or .270 is fine if you can wait for the animal to offer you a decent shot. Remember we are talking about a suitable cartridge/bullet combo for ALL conditions.
The .243 or 22/250 may be is a fine deer gun down south and in the open, where a 150 pound whitetail buck is a real stud. Up in Alberta where big bucks grow as large as 250 and occasionally larger the .243 is only fine in select conditions, N_O_T in all conditions.
I suppose there are no absolutes. It all depends on the circumstances, size of game and conditions.
Will my .338 with 250 NP penetrate a moose fully from ANY angle? No it will not. May be a BarnesX will. The 250 NP at moderate velocity as above will fully penetrate with angle shots behind the ribs, brake big bones and leave big goops of blood.

Emotive stuff indeed. However, I cannot condone shooting a beast up the arse, simply because it does not present itself as the ideal target. At least, not in my part of the world. That is not to say that there is a definitive right or wrong, but there are ethical issues to consider. I try to harvest animals as clinically as possible, in furtherance to Big Stick's credo. If that means passing up on a shot, so be it - there is always tomorrow. Fortunately, I have the luxury to do so (work permitting), which I recognise others may not.

Yet, despite the various musings, one theme remains constant - a compromised cardio-vascular system is terminal. To achieve this objective, a given bullet must be of sufficient mass, diameter and construction to transfer its energy effectively. However, the man behind the rifle controls the ability to perform its intended task...

Never lost an animal with the .284...............but I don't shoot at elephants either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shot placement is everything and with a good stout bullet,there is little difference at all in killing power of Deer and Elk cartridges with the same hit given a proper bullet is used.I have seen Elk killed with the 22-250 and a hole host of small leverguns.A good shot and a boolit stout enough for the caliber to get to the vitals and you have a dead animal.

Most of the folks in my parts have not fallen for the Ballistic hype and the new cartridges.Seen Elk take several hits from a 7mm the 30-06 also and the old 30-40 krag but in every case it was bullet selection or lack of.
I don't believe in numbers but I do in food on the table and what works and that includes alot of calibers but I do believe the 30-06 and its offspring is never a bad choice with the right bullet.

Jayco

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't get a good shot into the vitals, even at 30-60 yards.

Funny, bowhunters are able to do just that, at 30-60 yards.

Are they just better hunters?

I still remember waaaaay back when I first went hunting with a centerfire rifle after many years of bow hunting only. I was with an older mentor of mine and we had a chance to shoot. The distance was probably close to 200 yards. I was so freaked out by him saying this is a good spot we can shoot from here. I was like "dude that thing is way to far" Coming from a bowhunting back ground I was always in the mindset of 10-30 yards.........So to even consider something 200 yards away was just comletly bizzare to me.

After I got invovled with the guiding business my learning curve came around quick and I could see things more clearly where distance and firearms and archery were concerned. However those early years of exclusive bowhunting formed my skills and sensability to the point where I have actually said if every gun hunter started as a bow hunter and only bow hunted for a few years, they would never EVER miss anyting again or wound anything again with a rifle.

It's just so much more certain, precise, and forgiving going from archery to a scoped modern rifle. I still do both and few things in life are as much a rush as getting to within that very close archery distance. The one thing I find always amusing are the many folks who seem to rave about their long distance rifle shots. I've always found more pride in how close I could get rather then how far I could shoot. Surely hunting skills are not measured in long distance but rather actual hunting ability in how close you can get, .......at least thats the way I see it.

If that was aimed at me..I bow hunt Elk also but broadside shots are almost a must.The same goes for some factory ammunition in certain calibers.When they meet bone,they blow up and don't penetrate.I wish I was so lucky to get nothing but broadside shots on Elk..Just not the norm here where I hunt.So bullet selection is very important.One that will break a major bone and continue to the vitals from most angles.

If your post was not aimed at me,give me a second to get my foot out of my mouth!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jayco

Logcutter, not aimed at you. Shrike seems to think that you can't get a good shot at an elk or a moose. I wanted to make the point that a lot of bowhunters seem to be able to do so, so I don't understand why rifle hunters can't.


Your post made sense, and your second one makes even more sense. Sorry for the mixup.

In Minnesota the smallest cal, you can use for Deer is the .24�s. This is the first year we can use the .30 carbine. So the .223 are not a Deer round in Mn, no matter what you might say. If you don�t think so, come to Mn and try to shoot a Deer. I am sure that you will find some people around here that will disagree with your ideas of the .223�s as Deer rounds. They are called the DNR.

That said;

This year while Deer hunting, a fellow hunter shot a 8 point (or 4 point if your from out west) with a .243win the shot entered the back strap � the way back. The bullet ran up the back strap not hitting bone all the way up and stopped in the neck just short of the blood supply to the brain. The deer could no longer run fast but it was not stopping ether. Another hunter down range with a .25cal placed a shot under it�s ear when it stopped to go down a collie.

If the first hunter would have been using, lets say a .308 with 150gr bullet a second shot would not have been necessary.

If the second hunter would have been using a .22RF, the deer would have dropped just as hard.

Placement and Penetration.

kcm270. I think shrike's point is, with a cal like .338, if you shoot an Elk head on with 220gr. You may loose a rump roast.

I may be wrong, but that is the kind of penitration I would like to have for Elk. I shot a Deer this year with my .25WSSM with a 120gr bullet. It went in right in front of the right sholder and came out just in front of the left hip. What the .25s do to deer the .338s do to Elk.

As an aside,the 22lr is a legal chambering for the harvest of Caribou,from a boat,within the State of Alaska.

The "what if game" is a never ending series of hypothetical scenarios,that can be skewed in any direction.

What cain't be skewed,is the fact that the more I practice,the "luckier" I get and the chambering proper,largely means dick.

A guy can make his own luck and in more than one State............................

Hmmmmm..............................KMC270,
Read my post properly.
I described the terrain as willow/alder/poplar/spruce. The mode of hunting in my post I forgot to tell was not sitting in a treestand, but still hunting as in slowly walking on game trails with the wind in my favour.
May be you are not familiar with the type of habitat I described above. A 60 yard shot there is a rather long one for the simple reason that it is too thick to be able to see much further, 15-30 yard shots are more common. At that short range the animal knows you are there but has not clearly identified you yet. When you come eye to eye they are out of there. You shoot now or watch it bound off.
Remember,bowhunters here sit in treestands before rifle season when the climate is still warm enough to sit for long periods in a treestand. That my friend is the reason they can get those nice 10-30 yard unobscured shots. Bow hunters in the bush tend to cut nice clean shooting lanes.
My selection of artillery caliber, heavy for species and bullet heavy for caliber enables me to deal with the odd presentation angles.

The thing is I wanted to use my .22 Hornet for deer on that trip. I was all pumped for it. I guess that is why I placed my shot under the ear.
On that two day trip I saw hundreds of Deer if not a thousand. Around 60 of them within 20 yards, some of them within 10yds. It wasn't a matter of getting a deer. It was, which one do you want. Under those conditions, why not use a .223. Take your time. Pick your shot. Take it.

Where I live, You see 100 hunters to every deer you see, if you see a deer. The gun of choice (mandated my the DNR) 12ga or 20ga. We're not talking grains here we are talking a OZ or better. It is hard to pass on a shot, chances are It may be a year or two before the next one.

It's like fishing. I like 6lb test. I catch a s&#% load Bass and see no need for 20lb test. Maybe if a fish would break my line I would think about it, But I don't see it happining. Like I said; I catch a s&#% load Bass and I know what I'm doing.

I must say; I do like your writing style.

JJ's Wa. cult must have a chapter here in the midsection of the country. I was in a large sporting goods store last week, looking over the selection of component bullets, when a guy walks up and starts going on about the weights offered in 7mm. He loudly went on and on about "all they had was heavy bullets". He said he used the 110's in his magnum because "they stop those deer in their tracks". According to him the 150 and larger bullets "just zip on through and the deer run off". I'd hate to have to butcher one of his trophys!

Jacobite,
I respect your feelings on the subject. There is no one way is right here.
I hope I did not give the impression that rear-end shots are my forte or perverse specialty. They are not my first choice and only are used as last resort since they do destroy some fine hip/loin and hindquarter cuts. I rather shoot the back of the neck if I have time. However in a snap I will use the rear-end shot indeed.
yes I am familiar with some of the European modes of hunting and the ethical views asociated as I hunted a bit in Germany. As an example I watched a dutch hunter in Canada pass a 48" Moose @ 20 yards, yes indeed, twenty yards walking straight away from him on a cut line ( he was astonished later to hear that you can kill with a texas heart shot or simply break the pelvis and then finish it off...........or simply shoot it in the back of the neck). His only hunting had been in Germany at night from the hochsitz 50 yards from the feeding trough for pigs and the sugar beets for deer. The land-owner trying to sell his shot game to the restaurant-trade does not like lots of bone fragments mixed with bloodshot hams and backstraps.
Most of those piggies, roe deer are not all that large. Here the credo was shoot cleanly into the lungs or do not get invited again. Understandable. Unfortunately that was all the dutch hunter had been exposed to in his life.
Anyway, regarding the ethics...........................in human terms to shoot up the fanny is not very dignified. However does it make a difference to the animal whether his aorta/lungs gets shredded from the rear or same from the side? Does it make any difference to the animal whether his pelvis/hip gets busted from the rear or his shoulder from the side? I do not think so as long as we give it a mercifull quick coup de grace.
Again ethics can be rather subjective. Some may question the ethics of shooting over bait, while others vigorously will defend it. Lets not visit there.

.

Herewith, one of those rare real life cases where maybe a bigger caliber and stouter bullet made up for less than ideal placement. No ethics problem for me but to each his own...

A young acquaintance of mine last week put a 180 grain .30 Swift A-Frame into the ham of a big subalpine buck as it hustled into brush steep uphill between rock ribs and strips of scrub timber. 75 yards or less and take that shot or leave it and likely not see that buck again. Not many deer in that country and this one had the largest antler frame of any we�ve seen in ten seasons in that area. I�d not disadmire anyone for not shooting if that were his scruples.

The bullet shattered about 8 inches of leg bone up to the ball joint, missed damaging the paunch somehow, went through liver, lung and heart and stopped against the front wall of the chest. Stern to stem. The buck whirled downhill in a fold of ground that prevented a follow-up shot. He was dead about 160 yards downhill from the hit, in a thicket so steep he�d slide if you breathed on him. He was an unusually tough deer I�d say, because he ran all or nearly all of the way down there rather than rolled, and from his tracks he bedded, then got up and moved deeper into the thicket when his tracker got close.

I think a hit in the same place with a stout .22 bullet would have collected him albeit maybe a good bit farther down in the canyon to pack back up to the trail, and he might have been harder to find, maybe a lot harder. It would almost certainly have required a follow-up shot since I wouldn�t expect the .22 to penetrate from ham into chest vitals, though he might have bled out from damage in the ham. That day, on that shot, it was good to have a stout bullet in the big .30. That�s not great shot placement but there�s no deer going to absorb that one.

Size of the buck: 102 lbs of boneless meat packed out, plus nearly 6 lbs of antler and cleaned skull plate. We left a good 15 lbs or more of bloodshot ham splintered through with bone fragments. That�s a lot bigger than most blacktails. This one was a Cascade or �bench-leg� mule deer/blacktail cross, west side of the Cascades.

Shrike,

No disrespect intended or taken. By the way, from your handle, do you or have you been involved with explosives? A "shrike" was part and parcel of my kit as an Officer in the Royal Engineers. But, I digress...

I, too, have shot extensively in Germany and Poland, but cannot stand the "Hochsitz" methodology - it is so remote from the hunt. I do, however, like the training each hunter must undertake to obtain the "Jagdschein", which invokes a sense of professionalism and pride, I guess. In the UK, we have a similar system in place, managed by a national body and is called the Deer Management Qualification. Typically, we use the glass and stalk method, which akin to your earlier post, requires solid fieldcraft. Get it right and you might well approach a deer to within a few metres. Get it wrong and all you may see is a flash of white erectile hair, as they pronk off into the distance. In this area, we have some fine animals, mainly roe, fallow and sika, with the occasional red thrown in.

Due to the codes of conduct we have to abide by and more recently, an edict from the Food Standards Agency (FSA), the preferred target area is the classic high heart / lung area. A larger deer may run off, but will not go very far. However, there are other options, such as high and low neck or a frontal shot into the "stick hole" at the junction between chest and neck. It will floor any beast, but the gralloch is very messy, as it ruptures the diaphragm, rumen and bowels (see FSA above). I would imagine that hot copper up the chuff would have a similar effect. I have tried all of the above over the years, but the classic "broadside" is my preferred entry point, as it offers a clean dispatch and very little spoiling of the carcass - it is known as the "Butcher's shot". Distance wise, we try to get as close as possible, but 50-150 metres tends to be the norm. As we mostly shoot off cross-sticks or from around a tree trunk, that is a fair distance to ensure the required precision.

Calibre tends to be a personal affair, but with the police and government's attitude to firearms ownership, "less is more". However, the 1991 Deer Act states a minimum calibre of .240", i.e. the .243 is king. That said, I have been doing it for a good while and like to be awkward. As I guide occasionally for continental hunters, I shoot a metric (6.5 mm Swedish), which drops deer like Thor's hammer with a homeloaded 160gr Hornady. For the Yanks, I have a .30-06 and a .30-30 underlever, just to make them feel at home. I cherish them all, but have to admit that my hand falls to the 6.5 every time, unless there are pigs in my area, which was the case a few months ago.

As with most things, it's horses for courses. But, most animals are not bullet proof, so I find a little patience and confidence in the rifle wins every time. If an arrow will bleed out a deer, so will a bullet of reasonable calibre and weight, if well placed in the engine room.

Greetings from these shores.

Jacobite

Jacobite,
I indeed did a stint in the military, but my shrike handle stems more from my admiration for the plucky little bird.
Yes indeed, the hunter training program in Europe is very thorough. A profound knowledge is required of not only wildlife but also plants and the different wildlife management techniques. Last but not least the high shooting standards required in order to get your license.
And................. shooting tests have to be repeated on a yearly basis I believe. Such requirements weed out a lot of incompetence of which we see so much in the field over here.
Getting your jagdschein is indeed something to be proud of.
Upon graduation you are a lot more then just a "harvester" of wildlife.
Your choice of the 6.5x55 with 160 grainers is a fine one.
Your glass and stalk method is the most exciting method to me too.

I don't get it JJ...............heheheheheheheheheh

Since we have such a wide geographic spread of posters and hunting situations, I�ll add more explanation regarding the hunting conditions for the rump shot buck whose end I posted above. Hope this doesn�t come over as defensive because it isn�t. When you live comfortably within your ethics, what others think on a place like the internet doesn�t count for much. This context to explain why somebody might be comfortable taking such a shot, when he knows the bullet is up to the job required. And since I learn from hearing how others hunt in their conditions, I thought this might be of interest to some.

Deer are scarce and the season fairly short where the hunter was hunting. On our worst hunt up there we went three days without seeing a single deer. On my best day, mid rut in a snow storm when snow had concentrated the deer lower down, I saw ten deer between first light and night, three of them small bucks. That many deer is a slow morning for some of you guys. It is over seven miles on foot and 4400 vertical feet to where we start hunting, another motivation to make use of limited opportunities.

All of this to say that if you want some venison rather than a mere nature hike, you�d best take any shot that you know will kill rather than hold out for a broadside. There is no place on that mountain to spot and stalk. The terrain, timber and contours don�t provide glassability. So it is mainly still hunt, in timber mixed with steep bits of meadow. Most of our bucks have been shot broadside at pretty close ranges. The hunter is patient and good at spot and stalk, superb at still hunting. This last one surprised him near camp as he walked along a trail to where he planned to begin still hunting. It was a buck in the rut in an unexpected place, spooked and diving into cover straight away, big rack� You may opt to wait till you find one standing for a broadside. I�d take him. I would wait if I were hunting in a place with lots of deer, especially if I was packing a .22 or .24.

Shrike,

You are most welcome to come and see our wonderful countryside, with just your rifle as baggage. I extend that offer to Okanagan too. For your information, we have very long season, specific to the six primary species. In practice, it means we can stalk throughout the year for one or the other, although Chinese Water Deer and muntjac would require some travel. Locally, however, we have fallow bucks, sika and red stags from August through to the end of April, roebucks from April through to the end of October and the does and hinds from November through to the end of February. In fact, we have already started on the girls and took five last week alone. Basically, March is the only slack month, whereupon the population surveys are conducted and the gamebook audited to confirm the cull for the next period.

I hope this helps whet your appetite!

Jacobite

I�m with you, JJ. My first centerfire was the 7mm Mag I bought back in 1982. Took my first elk with a 162g Hornady BTSP through the lungs. The bullet was recovered from under the hide on the off side. It had retained less than 50% of its original weight even though the challenge to its integrity was minimal (one rib on the near side). The following year I switched to the Speer 160g Grand Slams and have been killing elk reliably ever since. After 20 years I finally recovered one of the Grand Slams but only after it had taken out both shoulder joints of a 6x5 bull. Its weight retention was still over 70%.

These days I stoke the 7mm Mag with 160g North Fork bullets, the.300 Win Mag gets 180g North Forks amd Barnes TSX�s and the .45-70 gets 350g North Forks. The North Forks are not available in .257 so the Roberts gets 120g Swift A-Frames and 115g Barnes TSX�s for its +P loads. My hunting buddy switched from the 160g Grand Slams to 160g Speer Trophy Bonded for his 7mm Mag.

Obviously, I put a premium on bullet integrity after contact. But placement is still the key. When I read stories like the one you posted I feel sorry for the game animals.

JJ,

Your theory only has a couple of holes in it. You suggest that all hunters should be armed with 30 cal or larger rifles to hunt the big game of N Am. You seem to dismiss the 243 or 257 Roberts or 25-06 as inadequate on deer. But your suggestion allows millions to hunt with their beloved 30-30's, or 44 mags, or 444's, or 38-55's etc, etc.

Not only do the common high velocity cartridges in 24 to 28 caliber do more extensive damage to the vitals of targeted game than the 30-30. They greatly increase the chance of proper bullet placement.

The reduced recoil of these cartridges, when compared to high velocity thirties or larger, is a boon to practice and marksmanship. And the flatter trajectory of fast subcaliber cartridges makes for more accurate bullet placement than does the low velocity 30 cal or larger cartridges.

Big Stick makes some very valid points concerning bullet placement. Perhaps, if one wants to prevent the loss of marginally wounded game, we should adopt the licensing practices of some European nations. We would be far better off to insist that the hunter be capable of making an accurate shot with whatever weapon he is carrying than to insist he carry a weapon which punishes him (or her) to the point of causing inaccuracy.

I have heard many times of the moving moose target employed as a test in some countries for marksmanship testing. I would cheerfully recognize that as a prerequisite for a game license.

And as for the idiots that decided to outlaw large 22 cal centerfires for deer hunting, but to allow the use of the thirty carbine, ............well.....nuff said.

Perhaps you missed the bold red print on the bottom of all my posts?

In any case you wrote this as well
"But your suggestion allows millions to hunt with their beloved 30-30's, or 44 mags, or 444's, or 38-55's etc, etc."

Did you notice why I think 30 caliber is a logical minimum and should be more strongly considered by people hunting big game? It's a diameter issue! If you look at the calibers your questioning me about, all exceed that .308 diameter!

'Stick, you are "en fuego". Going to look for a drop tine in the morning. If'n I don't find him I'll be comforted by the memory of this thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ......Good luck, Troy

You'll all be relieved to know that I just went out to the garage and pulled my BB gun to replace it with my .375. H&H that is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> . These forums have helped me avoid so many mistakes <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> . Good luck, Froggy

P.S. I still feel a BB gun is appropriate for smaller deer if you use zinc plated BB's. They'll slide through to the vitals easier.....

Actually I did miss that part, because I always quit reading when I get to the part that looks like advertizing.

Did I really read this posting correctly? Do you actually feel that a 44 mag will anchor any big game animal faster than a high velocity bullet from a sub thirty cal? A 30-30 is a more viable elk cartridge than a 270? How about a 30 carbine, deadlier than a 7mmSTW?

The selection of a big game cartridge requires the use of a bit of common sense. One needs to take into account his personal level of marksmanship, as well as recoil tolerance. One should also consider the weight of the target animal and it's tenacity of life. While I would certainly not reccomend a novice to pursue Elk or moose with a 223 or a 25-20, nor could I in good consience send him out with a Win 94 or Marlin chambered for any pistol cartridge.

The choice of bullet and energy delivered on target are far more critical to stopping any large game in the world than is simply the size of the hole in the barrel. Both of which are of secondary importance compared to proper bullet placement of course.

Jacobite,

That's a gracious offer and I thank you. Though I would enjoy it, I'm not likely to take you up on it, at least not the hunting, though there's a chance I might look you up if my wife and I visit the UK within a year as we are considering. I've enjoyed seeing deer in the UK countryside, some within view of Stonehenge. My son and I saw many deer on a bus tour we took from London to Stonehenge, Salisbury(?) and Bath. I asked the tour guide about the deer, what kind they were etc. and he hadn't seen any. He asked us to point some out. We were used to looking for game, and notice such things even when we didn't consiously start out looking. We were surprised to see them. We also saw some foxes from the train window near Reading, not far north of London.

How is it that these things get to this level of complication?

This thread clearly involves centerfire rifles and not handguns. If you choose to shoot a handgun bullet from a rifle then you open pandoras box with another whole series of issues.

It's the diameter my friend ****DIAMETER***** is the key here when an animal runs away in thick bush from a double lung hit or even a centered heart shot they will run a hella long way. Sub 30 caliber bullets allow zip for blood trails nearly every time. Even the .308 diameter is marginal but will at least offer some insight to the direction and damage done.

Without blood finding game becomes a "challange". Many things start to happen mentally to the shooter. Like; did I miss? was it just superficial? ........" I guess if he went this far he must be OK" All the second guessing within the first several minutes of looking tends to morally release you from the contract you just signed when you pulled the trigger. Sorry but that is a binding agreement. You pull the trigger you find the game.

What a great law it would be (if enforcement was possible) to allow a single shot each season at big game. One shot done! You don't notch your tag with a dead animal but rather with the pull of the trigger. ........Now what gun are you gonna use? Imagine the reduction in dead game that goes missing.

Copious amounts of blood dripping, spraying on bush or pooling up where he lays is a darn good idea when you go looking for game that has been shot. If your well hit animal runs 150 yards in a half circle(very common) will you make that sweeping turn without blood or just begin to wander aimlessly hoping you stumble across the body? While wandering will you then step on the only tiny specs that are there? When tracking with the fall colors will you easily see the blood mixed with the red fall leaves? Will those puny little specs soak into the sand and vanish?

Your mileage may vary I guess.

JJ,

I don't think you've swayed anyone into giving up their sub 30s or 7RMs........give the sermon a rest dude!

MtnHtr

Gotta agree with Hack on this one from personal experience this hunting season. I nailed a Muley buck twice with my just built .257 Roberts (I love that Bob, btw) and watched the bunch of them disappear over the saddle. I knew the buck was dead just by the way he did the classic hunch-over when hit in the boiler room. As I trailed them over the saddle I'll be darned if I couldn't find a single drop of blood anywhere. 15 minutes into tracking I still haven't seen a drop anywhere and I'm beginning to think "No way did I miss that buck!" I finally went back to where I first shot him and tracked not for blood, but carefully for where one deer peeled off from the rest. 10-15 minutes later I found him. Turns out I put 2 shots through both heart and lungs not 3 inches apart and then exited, but he bled out "inside". Weird. I actually enjoyed the tracking effort, but I was getting more than a little nervous about what I'd actually done vs. what I thought I'd done.

Gotta tell ya, my "'ol reliable" .30-06/180 Partition combo would have left me blood to see - always has. Like I said, I love that Bob, so while the 100 grain Speer load is super accurate in my Bob, I'm busy right now working up a 120 grain Partition load.

YMMV,
pud

Puddle,

What you have descibed with your deer is not uncommon, even when shooting the 30-06. I have seen this many times with deer I have hit with my 06.

When the heart is well hit, or the aorta is destroyed there is no blood pressure left in the animal's system to push blood out. The blood simply pools in the bottom of the thoracic cavity. If you have been lucky enough to punch a hole in the bottom of that cavity, you may see some blood that has dripped through the hole. This is another problem that can occur with the use of super premium bullets. They tend to leave fairly small exit wounds. Sometimes this allows the skin to move over and close off the exit, thus preventing any blood trail. Paying a dollar apiece for component bullets may ensure they exit the animal, but can not ensure a distinct blood trail.

It's a discussion board. The idea being to hear the other guy out, not shut him up. Read, consider, decide for yourself. It's how we all learn.

JJHack's opinions are based on immense experience. Whether you ultimately agree with him or not, they are worth hearing and considering.

Like on "Road House" opinions vary!To say you need a .30 caliber or larger for Elk,is non-sense.To say a 30-06 won't work on Brown Bears is also non-sense.All in the eyes of the beholder.Some say the .338 is the best Elk Medicine around and others say different.My neighbor has shot more Elk than most with a 25-06 and my 84 year old friend whom was on my first Elk hunt in the Selway-Bitteroots of Ideeho has used nothing but a .270 and 30-06 to take probably 50-60 Elk.He does pack in every year to good country but as he told me last year..It is getting hard to get back on the horse. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have seen Elk absorb 30-06 ammo but wrong bullet and weight as well as the 7MM and others and the old .300 Savage/30-30/25-35/32 special/35 remington put them down in one shot.....

For many years I was a .270 shooter period..It just worked with 130 Nosler Partitions put inthe right spot.I now own a .300 Win Mag and it has a small edge on the .270 if the bullet goes in where it is supposed to.The .375/.338 does not kill any better than a .300 or .30-06 with the same shot placement and a "QUALITY" bullet.

You certainly do not want to get into Sectional Density as the .308 has better SD than the .338 and .375 even the 300 grain .338 is just below the 250 .308 in SD for SD believers.

SHOT PLACEMENT is everything along with a well constructed bullet.The 22-250/.243 all red lettered(JJ's Red Line <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) deer bullets have killed alot of Elk in Idaho.
I used the 45-70 with 300 grain barnes last year for 90% penetration on a Bull Elk.It penetrated 90% of his body and "Exited" with instant death.....

Line up ten Gun Writers/Guides/Packers and the locals that live there and you will get umpteen answers is to what is best.In the lower 48 nothing over .308 is needed and the .308 works just fine in Alaska infact the 30-06 is the #1 choice with the .300 Win Mag second....


The old timers that fed there families off of lessor calibers would be rolling in there graves if they heard this non-sense on calibers and bullets it takes to kill larger than Deer animals...To many magazines and articles on which wiz-bang is best, rather than the people that do it for necessity not money.

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Interesting chart, only three choices in the top ten under .308

1623 hunters
1338 at or over .308
285 under .308

only about 1 in 6 choose a sub 30 caliber rifle less then 20% .............Hmmmmm where have I heard this before? I think this cross section of folks who are hunting big game in tough conditions understand the situation pretty well!

Look at the drop in hunters using the 7mm mag compared to the top three. Less then 1/2 as many!

"7MM HIT EM AGAIN"..I love that one and pass it on as often as I can.Your best analogy in my opinion..Seen it with my own eyes also. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Puddle �

I started out with the 120s in my .257 Roberts [Edited for correction, did read "7mm Mag"], as well as the 115g TSX. H4831SC and H4350 have served me well in terms of accuracy and velocity, but no game taken yet.

All +P max loads, so be careful:

115g TSX, H4831SC = 2958fps
115g TSX, H4350 = 3013fps
120g Grand Slam, H4831SC = 2899fps
120g Partition, H831SC = 2904fps
120g A-Frame, H4831SC = 2947fps

If I was taking the gun hunting tomorrow I would take the A-Frames.

Coyote_Hunter,


Thanks for the load data. Tomorrow I'm testing 15 rounds of 120 gr. Partitions loaded thusly:

5 rounds of 43 gr. H4350
5 rounds of 43.5 gr. H4350
5 rounds of 44 gr. H4350

All at the same seating depth. Mule Deer suggested this load.

pud

This time I'll add something relevant. I shot a good muley buck a few years back with my .375 H&H. Had decided to try the then-new 260 gr. Nosler B.T. I forget the exact yardage, something a little past 100 yards, or so. Broadside, no big bones hit, clean pass through and not one drop of blood spilled until a few feet of the downed buck. This after he ran up and out of the draw. Had I been hunting in the hills where things can be extremely thick, it would have been very tough to find this deer. In defense of my .375 I would say that this was a bit of a bullet mis-match, or was it? I might have had better or quicker results had I busted large bone.

Conversely, I've shot many deer, whitetails and muley with .223's and 6mm's. This before the age of "premiums". Ninety nine percent of them hit in the heart lung area and were literally bam-flops. I'm no expert now and was even further away from it at 12 and 13 years old. Yet never had trouble filling tags. 'Sticks ranking puts it about as simple as it can be put. Where people set themselves up for failure, as JJ and others have eluded to, is going into the field with an incomplete and/or faulty expectation/understanding of what pick-your-favorite-bullet will do when it impacts a game animal from whatever angle from whatever distance and whatever velocity having been shot from whatever cartridge/rifle/handgun combination. Increased understanding, however obtained, would result in less horror stories regardless of bullet diameter, fwiw. Good luck, Troy

30 cal + holes don't mean there'll be blood trails especially on elk. The last elk I saw shot with a 243 was at 210 yds, blood shot out his nose and mouth like coming from a garden hose, he didn't make 15 yds. Saw a cow elk hit at 219 yds with 270 gr 375 H&H there wasn't a spot of blood on the outside of her, she went 50 yds before falling over. Saw a spike elk hit with 154 gr 7x57 at 150 yds , there was a hole thru both shoulders and he almost beat his shadow to the ground. The bull I shot this year with the 405 at 151 yds didn't have any blood on his hair either. Little raghorn bull hit with 350 gr bullets from a hot loaded 45-70 , not enough blood outside to matter. Saw 3 cow elk shot this past week , 1 with an 06 and premium bullets, the other 2 with 300 something or nothers, there was blood everywhere, mostly on account of the vast amount of bullet holes in them.
Like BigStick said it don't matter a whole lot what you hit em with, it's more about putting the bullet where it'll do the most good.

Everbody knows the '06 is most popular because its been around the longest and being ex-military only boosted its popularity. The '06 had a pretty good start over the 7RM if you do the research. To state there is a "7mm Rem Mag cult" is ridiculous! Just goes to show you lack experience hunting public land among the common folk in the lower 48, namely the Rockies or far West. Thats where the 7RM cut its teeth.............................. You need to stick to what you know - fenced Africa and PNW black bears using an '06 and 375. Like Stick said, there ain't no shame running middle of the road!

MtnHtr (Bubba)

Gotta go with you there Mtn... this sub 30 stuff being inadequate is for the dudes to read on the toilet.

Just want to add that a .308 Win compared to .30-06 is like comparing two likewise apples. The animal won�t notice any difference. No matter what distance you shoot at. The unnoticeable trajectory difference, does not exist if you practise enough. And the energy punch is too small to even be mentioned (sorry for mentioning it). And oh yes, not to forget, no problem to put a 220 grains bullet in a .308 Win.