Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game practical caliber and cartridge differences

Penetration, penetration , penetration. Placement, placement, placement.

Some how the penetration thing doesen't come up enough at this site.

People take Deer with Bow and Arrow. If you can get Deer that close and you and your gun can shoot MOA. A .22LR is more then up to the task. Heck it can take down a 1/2 ton cow.

If you are looking for a deer and you only have one day. Go with a .25 and up. Because shot placement is everything and with a .25 and up you have alot more places you can place your shot for a quick and humane kill.

When that Deer of a life time is quartering away at 175yds and about to inter the thick woods. A .223 is buy no means a deer round.

All of the rounds mentioned above will get complete penetration of a paper target and are more then adequate for the job. For busting through a scapula, a rib and penetrating a lung at 200yds. Well the .22s just don't give me that warm cozy feeling.

Launch a 53gr X and get back to me........................

Don't buy it. No .224" 53 gr bullet can hit as hard as a much bigger one.

A while ago I thought of reinventing the wheel so to speak and I had a guy in Utah make up some 88 gr .224" Partitions for my new, do what at 243 does with .224" bullets, wildcat.

So I got a Douglas XX barrel 26" long and twist to shoot that bullet and had RCBS make up forming, reaming, sizing, and seating dies to make the PPC shaped thingy from 6.5 RM brass or if necessary 7mm RM cases. That bullet is very accurate sometimes doing .75 moa thru 200 paces.

So there I am with my chrono and quantities of wet newspaper at the range to blast deadly cavities with my mini (Mickey?) mouse big game rifle. It's steaming the custom partitions out at 3200 fps with a case capacity of 52 grs of whatever.

After making cavities in some of the media I noticed old Ed shooting his Ruger 270 with 140 Interlocks so I asked him to shoot into my media to compare the old cartridge to my miracle round. The distance was about 75 yds and when we went down to take a look it was obvious that the 270 made a far larger cavity and wreaked much more havoc.

Last year I started a topic on AR titled "The case for a large humane wound" and I never hunted big game with the .224 wildcat that I named after myself. I have better guns.

It's the blanket that hangs over the bed that keeps me warm.

I've the luxury of NOT speculating. BT/DT.

It's simply too easy to precisely direct that .224" projectile unwantonly,into a Critter's anatomy,to
dismiss it's effectiveness.

There's yet to be a Deer crafted,that can shrug that abuse.....................

Oh for precise placement then it has a chance but what about imprecise placement?

I'm a huge .30 cal fan. As far as I'm concerned there isn't any animal on earth I couldn't kill with my -06 with 180gr bullets. That's called confidence. And that mixed with common sence and respect for the animal is why I kill what I shoot at. A hunter that's more confident with a .280 will kill and find more animals than if he shot a -06,300mag,.338mag. etc. Common sence and respect for an animal is as important as caliber choice. My 12 year old shoots a 7-08 and I'll bet that he could kill more elk with that 7-08 than he could with a 300mag. Confidence kills. But I've also preached to him that a dead animal tastes alot better than a wounded one that gets away. I don't care how big a critter is. If you can't put your first shot where it counts . THAN DON'T SHOOT!! My friends have all said are you crazy why didn't you shoot! I simply reply that ain't crazy that's respect. CD

How horribly can you miss crucial anatomy,with a 53gr X and have a standard cup/core .243" projectile bail you out?

What is the margin for anatomical error,as denoted by bore diameter? What is the same margin,as denoted by an increase in velocity?

A [bleep] up shot,is a [bleep] up shot and likely the '06 totin' crowd,enjoys the vast percentages in botched harvest,because that is a chambering toted by a goodly percentage of numbnuts.

Same goes Archery. When does a 3-blade trump 2? Why not an 8-blade? What's the best combo of arrow velocity/gross arrow weight,cutting diameter and blade surface,to "fix" a [bleep] shot?

Hypothetical nonsensical rambling rates entertainment value,but it's pretty easy to just pop a few primers,practice as per average conditions/encounters allow and simply punch tags.

Placement
Boolits
Chambering

Little math is required............................

It all leads to matching the bullet/cartridge to the game and hunting conditions. What is the ideal bullet/cartridge combo for a given big game animal under ALL circumstances, not some select ones only.? The answer might be may be the combo that can penetrate that game animal fully from any angle.
My hunting conditions in willows/alder/poplar/spruce often present shots within 30-60 yards.
Presentation of the animal???? Any which way it is standing. Backwards straight on,angles facing, angles rearward, facing straight on.....................................and sometimes, yes indeed broadside. How much time for a shot? Precious little. The animal is very close and ready to take off or already taking off. Only parts of the body are visible.
You must take your shot the best as it is presented. And usually there is an opportunity. It is rare that no shot at all is possible. Waiting for a broaside shot and dilly-dallying will make you a non-consumptive user of wildlife.....................................it makes you a wildlife watcher instead of hunter. Actually I like people like that.
Hunting upland game such as Hungarian Partridges is a big help in speeding reaction time to shoot NOW.
Although my .270 with 130 grain NP will kill my moose with broadside shots fine..........................broadside shots are rare. In that setting as described above, you will not see me with my .270.
I use my .338 with 250 NP @ about 2650 fps.
I will try to break the pelvis, hip, angle through the ribs, under the tail into the chest, whatever it takes to break the animal down or get the vitals.
We are still talking about good shot placement here.
I have heard derisive laughter about using my .338 on moose or elk, since the 06 I am told will do it all. It will indeed if you are willing to pass on some shots I can take.
The 06 or .270 is fine if you can wait for the animal to offer you a decent shot. Remember we are talking about a suitable cartridge/bullet combo for ALL conditions.
The .243 or 22/250 may be is a fine deer gun down south and in the open, where a 150 pound whitetail buck is a real stud. Up in Alberta where big bucks grow as large as 250 and occasionally larger the .243 is only fine in select conditions, N_O_T in all conditions.
I suppose there are no absolutes. It all depends on the circumstances, size of game and conditions.
Will my .338 with 250 NP penetrate a moose fully from ANY angle? No it will not. May be a BarnesX will. The 250 NP at moderate velocity as above will fully penetrate with angle shots behind the ribs, brake big bones and leave big goops of blood.

Emotive stuff indeed. However, I cannot condone shooting a beast up the arse, simply because it does not present itself as the ideal target. At least, not in my part of the world. That is not to say that there is a definitive right or wrong, but there are ethical issues to consider. I try to harvest animals as clinically as possible, in furtherance to Big Stick's credo. If that means passing up on a shot, so be it - there is always tomorrow. Fortunately, I have the luxury to do so (work permitting), which I recognise others may not.

Yet, despite the various musings, one theme remains constant - a compromised cardio-vascular system is terminal. To achieve this objective, a given bullet must be of sufficient mass, diameter and construction to transfer its energy effectively. However, the man behind the rifle controls the ability to perform its intended task...

Never lost an animal with the .284...............but I don't shoot at elephants either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shot placement is everything and with a good stout bullet,there is little difference at all in killing power of Deer and Elk cartridges with the same hit given a proper bullet is used.I have seen Elk killed with the 22-250 and a hole host of small leverguns.A good shot and a boolit stout enough for the caliber to get to the vitals and you have a dead animal.

Most of the folks in my parts have not fallen for the Ballistic hype and the new cartridges.Seen Elk take several hits from a 7mm the 30-06 also and the old 30-40 krag but in every case it was bullet selection or lack of.
I don't believe in numbers but I do in food on the table and what works and that includes alot of calibers but I do believe the 30-06 and its offspring is never a bad choice with the right bullet.

Jayco

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't get a good shot into the vitals, even at 30-60 yards.

Funny, bowhunters are able to do just that, at 30-60 yards.

Are they just better hunters?

I still remember waaaaay back when I first went hunting with a centerfire rifle after many years of bow hunting only. I was with an older mentor of mine and we had a chance to shoot. The distance was probably close to 200 yards. I was so freaked out by him saying this is a good spot we can shoot from here. I was like "dude that thing is way to far" Coming from a bowhunting back ground I was always in the mindset of 10-30 yards.........So to even consider something 200 yards away was just comletly bizzare to me.

After I got invovled with the guiding business my learning curve came around quick and I could see things more clearly where distance and firearms and archery were concerned. However those early years of exclusive bowhunting formed my skills and sensability to the point where I have actually said if every gun hunter started as a bow hunter and only bow hunted for a few years, they would never EVER miss anyting again or wound anything again with a rifle.

It's just so much more certain, precise, and forgiving going from archery to a scoped modern rifle. I still do both and few things in life are as much a rush as getting to within that very close archery distance. The one thing I find always amusing are the many folks who seem to rave about their long distance rifle shots. I've always found more pride in how close I could get rather then how far I could shoot. Surely hunting skills are not measured in long distance but rather actual hunting ability in how close you can get, .......at least thats the way I see it.

If that was aimed at me..I bow hunt Elk also but broadside shots are almost a must.The same goes for some factory ammunition in certain calibers.When they meet bone,they blow up and don't penetrate.I wish I was so lucky to get nothing but broadside shots on Elk..Just not the norm here where I hunt.So bullet selection is very important.One that will break a major bone and continue to the vitals from most angles.

If your post was not aimed at me,give me a second to get my foot out of my mouth!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jayco

Logcutter, not aimed at you. Shrike seems to think that you can't get a good shot at an elk or a moose. I wanted to make the point that a lot of bowhunters seem to be able to do so, so I don't understand why rifle hunters can't.


Your post made sense, and your second one makes even more sense. Sorry for the mixup.

In Minnesota the smallest cal, you can use for Deer is the .24�s. This is the first year we can use the .30 carbine. So the .223 are not a Deer round in Mn, no matter what you might say. If you don�t think so, come to Mn and try to shoot a Deer. I am sure that you will find some people around here that will disagree with your ideas of the .223�s as Deer rounds. They are called the DNR.

That said;

This year while Deer hunting, a fellow hunter shot a 8 point (or 4 point if your from out west) with a .243win the shot entered the back strap � the way back. The bullet ran up the back strap not hitting bone all the way up and stopped in the neck just short of the blood supply to the brain. The deer could no longer run fast but it was not stopping ether. Another hunter down range with a .25cal placed a shot under it�s ear when it stopped to go down a collie.

If the first hunter would have been using, lets say a .308 with 150gr bullet a second shot would not have been necessary.

If the second hunter would have been using a .22RF, the deer would have dropped just as hard.

Placement and Penetration.

kcm270. I think shrike's point is, with a cal like .338, if you shoot an Elk head on with 220gr. You may loose a rump roast.

I may be wrong, but that is the kind of penitration I would like to have for Elk. I shot a Deer this year with my .25WSSM with a 120gr bullet. It went in right in front of the right sholder and came out just in front of the left hip. What the .25s do to deer the .338s do to Elk.

As an aside,the 22lr is a legal chambering for the harvest of Caribou,from a boat,within the State of Alaska.

The "what if game" is a never ending series of hypothetical scenarios,that can be skewed in any direction.

What cain't be skewed,is the fact that the more I practice,the "luckier" I get and the chambering proper,largely means dick.

A guy can make his own luck and in more than one State............................

Hmmmmm..............................KMC270,
Read my post properly.
I described the terrain as willow/alder/poplar/spruce. The mode of hunting in my post I forgot to tell was not sitting in a treestand, but still hunting as in slowly walking on game trails with the wind in my favour.
May be you are not familiar with the type of habitat I described above. A 60 yard shot there is a rather long one for the simple reason that it is too thick to be able to see much further, 15-30 yard shots are more common. At that short range the animal knows you are there but has not clearly identified you yet. When you come eye to eye they are out of there. You shoot now or watch it bound off.
Remember,bowhunters here sit in treestands before rifle season when the climate is still warm enough to sit for long periods in a treestand. That my friend is the reason they can get those nice 10-30 yard unobscured shots. Bow hunters in the bush tend to cut nice clean shooting lanes.
My selection of artillery caliber, heavy for species and bullet heavy for caliber enables me to deal with the odd presentation angles.

The thing is I wanted to use my .22 Hornet for deer on that trip. I was all pumped for it. I guess that is why I placed my shot under the ear.
On that two day trip I saw hundreds of Deer if not a thousand. Around 60 of them within 20 yards, some of them within 10yds. It wasn't a matter of getting a deer. It was, which one do you want. Under those conditions, why not use a .223. Take your time. Pick your shot. Take it.

Where I live, You see 100 hunters to every deer you see, if you see a deer. The gun of choice (mandated my the DNR) 12ga or 20ga. We're not talking grains here we are talking a OZ or better. It is hard to pass on a shot, chances are It may be a year or two before the next one.

It's like fishing. I like 6lb test. I catch a s&#% load Bass and see no need for 20lb test. Maybe if a fish would break my line I would think about it, But I don't see it happining. Like I said; I catch a s&#% load Bass and I know what I'm doing.

I must say; I do like your writing style.