I am in between deer hunts, and home for a couple of days. I took a guy from here in town doe hunting this morning on a place I have about 90 miles away, down near the Oklahoma line. I hadnt been on the ranch a total of 1 minute, and he had already missed 2 does with my rifle. Then we proceed to the next wheat field, and he blows both front legs off of one, and then finally kills her with a shot to the back of the head, from 10 yds. We clean and tag her, and we are off again. The next 3 does I put him on, he cleanly misses, then the 4th is the nasiest gut shot that I have ever seen. My 25 stw, 100 nosler bt @4100 fps, right in the middle of the guts, and there was a hole in the off side that you could stick your head in and look around. After a lenghty tracking job, and 4 missed oppurtunities while she was in bed, I finally took my gun back and finished her at 250 yds running. This was just a perfect ending to a real bad last couple of days. I had I guy miss a 190 inch whitetail, 7 times, and in 4 days he missed a total of 12 times, and still didnt kill a deer. All of these shots were layups, What is so hard about putting the crosshairs on the shoulder, and pulling the trigger? I realize that everyone misses, and I have had my fair share of them also, but this is getting crazy, I think Im hexted this year with clients, and I have seen some monster deer. Okay rant over.

Toby Joe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Toby:

Don't take this wrong, as I guided quite a bit too. And really kinda miss doing it.

But seems to me that folks just think that spending some bucks the hunt will be easy and that you'll have multiple chances at 50 yard shots etc...

On the other hand, most folks that practice and work at being good shots, they seem to want to do things on their own. IE no guides etc.....

I was starting to think of guiding as more along the lines of babysitting about the time I quit.

Some folks don't care and have no respect etc..... I've seen it locally a bunch too. When I shoot I'm 110% sure of the outcome or I won't pull the trigger. Which means that sometimes I pass on shots or the deer leaves before the bullet gets out of the case. But so be it. This way I'm 110% sure of a solid kill.

All that mumbo jumbo and I don't have a real answer for ya. How many times have you been asked to shoot the deer for the hunter on top of it?

Wish I"d have had the cash to get a single good shot at a 190 inch deer!!!! Thats something I would not waste.

Hang in there. It seems to go with the game. I tried to enforce mandatory accuracy testing for some of our blinds where you could shoot 300 yards. Guys started complaining about they spent X money and it wasn't fair to keep them out etc...... They were not happy when I watched from a hill and charged them with every deer they wounded. IE they were tagged out by dark and not single deer dead. We had to go finish them all off and none were good deer. In the end the owners I worked for were worried about the money and not the game, so I left.

Jeff

I can speculate why.

Don't know how it is at your public and/or club ranges, but used to be you'd only have maybe 3-4 benches for sighting in. Here at Black's Creek range east of Boise, every single position has a bench. I have to move teh bench out of the way to practice my position shooting.

Anyway - how many people do you ever see doing any shooting that is NOT over sandbags?

This is a pet peeve of mine. People aim for a huge gong at 200 yards and they do it off of the bench. At the old range I used to go to we could shoot to 500 meters. People would aim at the hanging ram clanger and congratulate the hell out of themselves when they finally ranged their shots in and hit it - always OFF THE BENCH. 100, 200, 300 yards - doesn't matter, they want to hit it and make it ring so they put the rifle on bags. Hell, they're plinking with the .22's at 25 yards off the bench and sandbags.

Then they go to the field and try to hit something offhand. No wonder they can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, unless of course there is a shooting bench inside the barn. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sheeeite!!!!!!!

Get ready, bud.
Flinch, Scout & me will be on your doorstep in a few months for the Hog/Dog fest.

THEN you'll see some guys that can't shoot............... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
badger.

BTW, don't you check your PM's??????????

Ok, I'm no "crack shot" but I practice. I shoot silhouette and shot in ~100 aproved matches (40 shots each for the match and warm-up of 25 or so)in high power, small bore and air rifle a year. I also practice under my house with an airrifle as much as I can. I have logged 64 "rounds" in my journal in the last 12 months (need more practice) to the tune of 55 or so shots each..... This equals 10,000+ rounds shot offhand (I know more than that b/c I shot more smallbore ammo than that) in the last year...

Opening day I'm on my tripod, have to take a doe b/f you can log a buck into the contest... Pack of does spoted at 300+ yards (Keep in mind I shoot offhand at 24" targets at 500M). Through my stiners I identify the "lead" doe.... I wait until they get inside 150 yeards or so... With a military wrap and both elbows supported by my shooting rail, I squeeze off at the base of her neck...... 300Weatherby mag raises my scope off of her, quick re-load, look back through scope - she is still standing there.... How could this be????? Perfect rest, gun shoots MOA, heck I could have taken the shot at 400 and bet $ on it.... As she starts to bolt I put another into her afraid that I might have "wounded" her... Thawack....

When I get to her.... there are (2) doe down...LOL 1st one shot in the neck...

My feable point...practice and then have confidence in your execution...

Man, I wish I had an answer for you. The missing (especially easy shots) gets old in a hurry.

It always amazes me when I travel just how unprepared a lot of people are. I have been to Alasaka and seen guys show up with guns that are completely new, guns that looked like they came out of the junk bin etc. I remember two guys that got off the plane in September with sleeping bags that looked like rejects from a 1967 boy scout jamboree. Pathetic. I am constantly blown away at the range before deer season when I see dozens of guys show up, pound a box of shells through a gun and they are happy if several hit the paper at 100 yards. I guess I'm a firm believer that chance favors the prepared mind. Why can't people shoot? Because they are too damn lazy to put the effort into learning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Toby why can't people shoot. Durned if I know. As many have said not enough practice and not friendly with their rifle.

I have a sneaking hunch about another thing too. They shoot at a deer. They don't shoot at a spot on the deer. They see the whole thing through the scope and shoot at it forgetting that the crosshairs are where the bullet is going. You got to put that on the spot where you want to hit not just shoot at the deer.


BCR

People, in general, don't practice enough. You can't get good at anything without practice and repetition. When I lived out in the country and didn't have nearby neighbors, I shot my 22 rifle 3 or 4 times each week. I didn't shoot it a lot of ammo at each session, probably 1 box of 50 rounds, but I had the rifle in my hands and was training my muscles for shooting in the off-hand position. Since moving to the 'burbs, I shoot my pellet rifle in the garage a couple of times each week.

I think that if American hunters had to demonstrate the sort of proficiency that most European countries require from their hunters, those who really wanted to be allowed to hunt would start to practice.

Jeff

TJ,
I feel your pain. Two seasons back I was helping out a friend who didn't have a lot of deer hunting experience. He talks a good game, but can't quite back it up.

That Annie Oakey missed 4 bucks, including one smoker, in one season. Understand also, that this area is not exactly known for it's high deer densities, and hust seeing two good bucks in a year, much less getting good shots at them, is a good year.

Every shot was pretty much a gimmie. The longest one was 310-ish yards, with a dead rest, no wind, and an unsuspecting buck.

By the end of the season, I was about ready to shoot my buddy. He gave up and ate his tags that year, that is until he killed a pisser spike in Utah that October at all of 25 steps.

Toby,
I can feel your pain!! I helped guide a guy on a spendy NM private ranch elk hunt that did not even bring bincoulars because "my scope is so good"!!! Yikes!, and, "that is what you are for"!! I was glassing off of a ridge where later a 400 class bull was killed, and, I turned around and could not find the guy!! Finally, I find him hunkered down behind a big boulder because "it was to cold". I had to pass back to another guide to get back to work, but, was later told that he did not get a bull! However, his dad was there, hunted hard and got a nice bull. Justice was served!!

Ran into some guy's this year during my Co. elk hunt from Texas. One guy stated he was shooting a 308 that was really accurate with 150 core-loks, but, he brought a better load with him for elk. I asked how his gun shot with those (165's) and he simply stated he had no idea since his gun was already sighted in he did not even mess with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scary, very scary!!!!!!!!!

Huntr

Toby

Just out of curiosity, have you ever asked one of your clients if they shoot or practice regularly? If i was guiding a person and they performed so poorly i would very politely ask them if there was a problem, or if they are not comfortable with the rifle, or if they have ever killed a big game animal before. I guess you'll never know why they cant shoot unless you ask them.

I think the problem is two-fold. people don't have/won't take the time to shoot other than sighting-in and a lot of ranges due to liability concerns don�t' want people shooting in any position other than sitting at a bench.

Also some ranges try to run you thru like cattle. The more time you take up on a bench the fewer people they can run thru and collect their $10.
tom

I think you have it figured out.

People can't shoot cause people don't practice. Period.

Yup, prolly for the same reason that my golf game is so bad...

Yup, probably. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seems like part of the answer might be in that part of the post.I never shoot someone elses rifle as well as my own, and it sounds like the guy didn't even own one.

I had a guide tell me they get to pick their client after everyone goes to the range. Well he had first pick and burned it on me after watching me handle my rifle unloading and checking it for travel damage. He was pretty confident looking at my rifle, bluing worn off the bolt and plenty of honest wear that I could shoot. He said what scared him to death was when he could over hear clients unpacking and asking another client if they had the correct ammunition for their gun. His other favorite was when someone said they didnt need to shoot in front of everyone because the gunsmith had already bore sighted the rifle.

Of course I was the only one in the group who didnt get a shot, but the rest went right at 50% on elk within 200 yards, most from a decent rest while watching watering holes. One guy missed 14 shots at 4 different elk, all under 200 yards. I will be the first to admit I have missed a few shots I should have made but it was horrible listening to the excuses each night at the campfire. I loved it when one of the "experts" explained how the altitude difference between the camp range at 5000ft cost him his elk "at the top of the hill" at a little over 150 yards due to the bullet rising over the back of the elk.

I was thinking about this today and I think it will fit here.

Shooting at paper is one thing But when it comes down to the shot that counts, the one that all the other shots were leading up to. It just seems to be like magic. You don't look at the (lets say ) deer with the scope. You look through the scope right up to the spot (wham) and touch it. It's almost like you were right there for that one instant. You walk up to the beast and right there, right on that spot, is a hole. Then you think, wow did that really just happen? Untill the next shot. Ditto.

Not enough practice with the real deal, field positions as stated above. Also not enough practice period. One trip to the range with 10 shots in 3-5" off bags is not a good thing, when one gets the shot opportunity that counts. At very least spend some time with a 22LR. JMHO DougD

I dry fire my rifles and pistols - a lot - every night as a matter of fact. Sometimes several different sessions a day. When I go to the desert to shoot my test loads off the bench, I take a hunting rifle or three and shoot from field positions at various unknown ranges - mainly rocks or sticks way out there. Including laying down in the dirt and shooting.....I also look at every picture of game animals I can, and visualize where I'd hold when I shot at it. I think the result is that I have muscle memory built up for the hold and for breaking the shot, with out having to think about it. It also helps with the hit percentage, to get real close to the animal!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The weirdest thing is that when I shoot an animal, after the shot I don't remember where the cross hairs were when I pulled the trigger. I think I know where I aimed, but I can't slow down the replay in my head to frame by frame and see the cross hairs at the instant of the shot. It must work cause I have been doing pretty well on the game - I hope I haven't jinxed myself..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Funny thing, everybody wants to whine about how so few guided hunters can shoot and all the guided hunters wonder why bear guides insist on shooting bears, especially big ones, as soon as the client puts a bullet in them.

There was someone here whining a couple years back about being on a guided brown bear hunt and his guide shot the bear for him. Seems he shot at the bear and missed. Guide assumed NO ONE could miss a shot that easy, so he shot. Fella had nerve enough to bitch about the fact the guide thought he had a wounded bear... that showed no signs of being hit!

Ever wonder what a brown bear guide is thinking when the client insists on going in front of the guide and "facing down a bear" as I have heard hunters say???
art

This is a spin off but I had an odd experience with a companion missing game, when I�d seen him pull off superb shots. He nailed a coyote at 392 looong paces across an alfalfa field, standing with a rest over the top of a fence post, with his .22-250. He head shot a moose at nearly 300 yards when that�s all we could see, that time with a leaner on a tree. Then on a trip for elk where he had drawn a doe tag for whitetail after the regular season, he missed several deer at point blank range. On the drive in, a nice doe stood beside the old logging road and our friend got out and missed it twice, at 40 feet and then again at 25 yards, both times as it stood broadside. My son turned to me and said, �This is going to be a long hunt.� Finally he nailed one, with a rest at a good 100 yards.

About a year later we discovered that he had severe heart disease, and at times his heart was barely working. His work performance was also erratic, and suddenly all of his odd behaviors from excellent to �lazy,� good shot to atrocious, made sense.

This has nothing to do with poor shooting in general, except a heads up if you run into someone similar.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

264b, The guy that missed 12 shots, I begged him to shoot his rifle, both before, and during the hunt, he said that it was shooting good before he left, and he drove, so there was no way it could be knocked off. I said ok, its your dime. The feller I took out today, had a nasty divorce last year, and now has no guns, I maybe could see his reason for missing, but I have killed plenty of stuff with other peoples guns, that I have never shot, it just not that hard as some people make it. Oh well, same [bleep] different day.

Toby Joe

Dont get me wrong, I not gripping because clients miss, It is a blessing to have the clientel that I have, but, it amazes me that people spent the kind of money that they do, then dont bother to shoot, and practice, when they know in their own minds that they cant shoot. What makes me cringe, is seeing game wounded, I love clean misses, compared to wounded game. I dont know if it is right or wrong, good or bad, but I have a wound policy. If it bleeds, it is your animal, This is one of the toughest things for me to do. Is enforce this rule, but I do stick buy it, as much as I can.

TobyJoe

Toby, You sound like a fun guy to spend a few days with. I have been on a few guided hunts where it was mandatory and have seen some examples of incompetnce on the part of the guides also. I used to think being a guide would be a super job. But after seeing how hard they work I changed my mind long ago. Sicero

TJR,

I attribute lack of shooting skill to the following:

a.) Some folks are too cheap to buy/reload enough ammo to get in the quality trigger time required to be a good shot.

b.) Some folks are too lazy and/or lack the dedication required to amass said trigger time.

c.) Some folks lack the self control/discipline to hold their fire when presented with a shot that they know they don't have a prayer of making, and take the shot anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

Jeff
I think you left out one;
d.) Some people absolutely suck at all things attached to coordination.
art

Practice, practice, practice. I have never accepted a dime for my efforts but have acted as a guide for friends chasing pronghorn, deer, and elk after I moved to eastern Oregon years ago. I did the preseason scouting, got them within 100 yards on standing game, and then have to watch them miss 6 or 7 critters before finally scoring a hit. Post trip test shots with the rifles usually explode softball sized rocks at 150 to 200 yards. At least their rifles were on. The stress of those sessions was too much, and I don't view those trips as opportunities any more. One of those fellows was upset recently when he missed a bull on a high dollar trip and discovered that the guide's efforts immediately went elsewhere. The outfit promised a decent shot at a bull. If one missed, he was on his own after that. Might be an expensive way to learn a lesson, but I bet it's gotten through to some. I feel the same way about my seasons. If mother nature shows me a legal standing animal for 5 seconds, then I've had my chance. If I'm unsuccessful, it's my fault. I'd be willing to mentor a seriously dedicated kid, but not anymore adults. Accepting $$$$$ would make the stress unbearable. I suspect that many huntiers are truly ignorant of their firearms capabilities and shortfalls. Another group is simply too lazy to devote the time to develop decent skills. I am often amazed at how some hunters finally score a coveted tag, drive into the unit at midnight before opening day, hunt Saturday and half of Sunday, and then head home physically drained. If that's all the effort they will give a hunt, then it's a bit much to expect them to spend another half day just getting the rudiments of their firearms down. I doubt that we will see things get any better as time passes. Most are just too urbanized and pinched for time, even though they can spend 8 hours per weekend watching sports on TV. I'm sure I expect way too much from people. My hat is off to those with the patience to be professional guides. I couldn't handle it.

I was thinking about this thread again last night and I got'er all figured out. It's not that folks can't shoot, they all shoot, it's they can't hit what they are shooting at. Being a noticer and all, I noticed they do have reasons for their misses. So in no particular order here's a Top 25 list. Feel free to add more:

1. Sun was in my eyes.
2. I couldn't see it clearly in my scope.
3. It was too steep up/down hill.
4. I thought it was further.
5. I thought it was closer.
6. I was looking at the antlers.
7. I must'a bumped my scope off.
8. The clerk said it was all bore sighted and ready to go.
9. I was trying a different brand of ammo.
10. I was trying a different weight/brand of bullet.
11. I was trying a different brand of powder.
12. Must'a been the elevation change.
13. Wind blew off my shot.
14. I couldn't get a steady rest.
15. It was moving too fast.
16. I hit a (bush, branch, blade of grass) in front of it.
17. My scope mounts were loose.
18. I had the scope turned up too high.
19. My scope was fogged.
20. It's the first time I've tried this new gun.
21. I'm not used to this new scope.
22. I was shaking too bad.
23. The trigger is too heavy.
24. The trigger is too light.
25. I might'a flinched a little.

Here's 5 more for the more advanced misser's.:
1. The parallax was off.
2. I must'a canted the rifle too much.
3. I didn't account enough for the mirage image.
4. I didn't lead him enough.
5. He moved right when I shot.

On the one's that I've missed, I just flat missed. I guess I'm just a rookie in that regard.

Few would admit it, but egos are resposible for their fair share of misses.
Some just will not admit that they are not proficient enough with a firearm to be consistantly accurate at normal ranges, under field conditions.
They'd sooner take a butt kicking than seek help in becoming a better shot.

I did kind of get a good laugh yesterday morning. I run a Swaro. 6-18 with the tds on my STW . I had the eye relief screwwed all the way out for me, and never thought to tell him. Well at least it drew blood on one end. After the first shot, I dont think he could see real good, because of the blood running in his eyes. He now has a permanent reminder, betwix his eyes. So I think he was flinching a little the rest of the morning. This brings me to another addition to how my year has gone. I had 2 deer hunters 2 weeks ago, that had killed out on the second day, and decided that they wanted to kill an Audad. So myself, and one other guide,leave the ranch we were hunting, and head to my sheep ranch. My guy killed a 30 inch sheep, at daylight. We head back to eat lunch and see how the others guys morning went. He didnt kill anything, so we all got together for the afternoon hunt. We head to the area that we are going to hunt, unload the 4 wheelers and head out. I tell my guy, who is shooting a 300 weatherby, to take his rifle along, just in case we get into some pigs, and because we are on the 4 wheeler, I dont take my rifle, in which turned out to be a huge mistake. We get on some sheep, the other hunter gut shoots one, the sheep runs off about 350 yrds, and beds down. This guys shoots at him several more times, and just cant hit him. The sheep is hurt bad enough that he wont get up, but is still plenty alive, but is close to the neighbors fence. The hunter turns and looks at me, and says hes out of bullets. He had only brought 5 shells with him, and the others were back at the 4 wheeler, which was a good 2 miles back. I asked him if he would mind if I shoot, he said he didnt mind a bit, so I grabbed the 300 weatherby from my hunter. I touched it off, and the next thing that I know, is everyone is crownded around me, looking down at me, blood is pouring off my face, and nose, Im seeing stars. Come to find out, this guy is lt handed, shooting a rt handed rifle, but is right eye dominant, so he had his scope set waaaay back so that he could look across his rifle through his rt eye. Well it cooled me, and know I have a permanent reminder betwixt my melon. I did hit the sheep though, so all was good I guess. Ah the joys.

Toby Joe

Was guiding a grizzled old logger from Oregon one time for caribou, he'd taken an okay caribou but I spotted a nice one across the lake and talked him into going after it.

The stalk dang near did him in, he was wearing a full length oilskin duster, sweatshirt and stocking hat along with his daypack. After getting him to let me take his pack and dropping the duster, I encouraged, cussed and cajoled him into getting in position to make the shot, emphasis on the cussing part.

He was set up nice with his Ruger #1 in 7mag, had a good rest with the pack and bore down on the caribou at 200-225 away (before rangefinder days) he shoots and I see dirt fly up. "What the %$(&@* happened?" I asked. His reply "I missed azzhole, you ever missed any f...ing thing you shot at?" (redfaced) Uhh yeah. 2 more shots and we were moving into postition to take pics as the sun was going down, what a beautiful evening it was with a pretty caribou on the ground. Had to find our way back to the boat in the dark and only time to my recollection I've ever left any game in the field. I left him with one of my flashlights to signal me where he was on the shore as he was done in. Got the boat found him and thankfully a pard had set a lantern on the beach to guide us across the lake.

Can't begin to tell you the satisfaction it was cruising across the lake that was like glass for a change, with a tired but successful hunter who remains one of my favorites to this day. I really liked Don, and to this day, it helps me remember that everyone misses once in awhile. Thank God he was a logger, someone from a more gentle profession might of been asking for a refund after my motivational speech on the stalk.(grin)

That was over 10 years ago, but the memory is as fresh as yesterday. Twas a good time. There's some other stories that go with that hunt and that hunter, but for another day. The moral he was handy with that #1, but he missed once with it during our time together and no bsing on his part when he did, just "I missed....." He was the KIND.

My favorite excuse, and the one I use when I miss........

"I SUCK!"

LMAO, I used to shake my rifle, Now I just bang my head on the nearest tree and curse.

It is very hard for most people to have access to a range where they can shoot at 100, 200 and 300 yards.

They also don't do enough small game hunting, where the stalking and intense observation skills are the same as for big game. The shot opportunity, the decision, the reflexes, getting into position quickly and without spooking game, are all the same for crows, squirrels and rabbits.

What almost everyone can do is buy a good air rifle and air pistol and practice at home. They also make safe, silent varmint killers for rats, starlings, pigeons, etc. There are plenty of farmers and businesses at the edge of every town who will welcome the safe eradication of pests, and that is a great way to build trust and get access to untapped big game land.

I think most people don't practice or even shoot their guns to check them after they sight them in for the first time. I heard a hunter say he had not shot his rifle in 2 years at a deer or a target. The guy said he had not seen a good deer to shot and that his gun was still zeroed from 2 years a go when he bought it. I think it goes back to respect for the game you are taking. A lot of hunters now just hunt to kill and don't understand what hunting is all about. If you are going to do something do it right or don't do it. I have seen deer with their horns shot off, I guess the shooter was looking at the horns instead of aiming the gun.

I had to laugh at your post. It was written in such a way that I could just SEE the expressions on your face when these guys missed these shots..

There are a lot of reasons that could all point to full-scale inaccuracy.

1 lack of practice shooting, especially offhand or from a quick rest (limb, rock, knees etc..)
2 buck fever.. lifting head off stock.
3 strange rifle - everybody holds a firearm differently and it CAN affect accuracy.

Any or all of the above will do it.

A good hunter and good customer of mine gets a LOT of deer every year but he practices diligently with his rifles from his favorite position, kneeling. He can hit running deer with boring regularity and mentions many times about other guys he hunts with who can't hit a deer from 50 feet much less 300 yards...

Practice, practice, practice. Then practice some more.


Best to you this Christmas

TJT,

Back in the good old days when we had the draft, many people learned to shoot in the military. The rifle instruction there was brief, but also it was effective -- at least on the basics.

With the all volunteer force in effect these many years, many folks do not learn to shoot properly. When they come to hunt with you, they show their lack of good, formal training with the rifle.

I like to recommend that folks take one of the rifle courses out there such as Gunsite's.

jim

I've a few thoughts on this. Both from the hunting with buds side to the guiding side.

First off lack of familiarity and intimacy with their rifle. I've always said this is what counts not what round. To many people just don't take the time to truly become one with their rifle/BB gun or whatever.

Most of my comments here are from the guiding perspective. I've guided (professionally, not the old I took someone hunting so I guided them) from Montana down to Sonora and spent some years up to 180 days a year at it.

First off ego/pride is right at the top of our list. I've long said that hunters/shooters are the most arrogant and prideful and ignorant group of people out there. I mean spend a few minutes around forums like this and you will figure that out toot sweet. And b4 anyone gets up in arms about this I am in this group as well.

Pracitice, both with the weapon and in terms being able to get into a killing position and I mean right now and on demand! It takes a bit of savy to be able to quickly look at the game, the terrain and to figure out in a nano second where to set up. I've seen so many clients trying to watch the game when it is spotted instead of going into kill mode and looking for a good nesting place to get your shot from. I always use the mentality that this is a one shot deal. So set it up right and make it count.

Pracitice with the round, I routinely put between 2500 to 4000 rounds a year thru my 3 main center fires. This does not county the 223 ammo and such. I want to be ready and I want to be in synch with the rifle. My main rifle is on its 8th tube if I remember right. This year so far I've put 1000 rounds thru it. It is a 7 Mashburn Super and it will work for all comers, big to small. One of my fav games is to hit the turf, and get the cheater legs down and to hit the far gong (a smallish one @ 434 yds and to try to get the 2nd shot going b4 the ring of the first one comes to me, tough to do but it does tend to keep me sharp);

The ladies are for the most part always easier to work with, they will listen for the most part none of them come to camp thinking that they are Johnny Leather Legs and have something to prove. They do tend to be a bit slower with the trigger but they will make things happen!

One of my guiding mentors told me that your job is to

*find the game

*acsess the hunters ability with the gun, with their mental abilities and with their physical abilities

*and then it is my job to make it happen based off of how I read the client to be

*but note the finding of them game is the easy part

I had to be able to read the people and the game and put them into a postition for them to win irregardless of their personaly ability.

It do tend to take a lot of patience for sure!

It is a lot of fun and it is not for everyone. I know many super hunters that would make for lousy guides. I also know many average hunters that make super guides!

Just some random thoughts

Mark D

feliz navida

Damn good post there bud...

Were I ever to use a guide service (highly unlikely) I would show up with good equipment, fully prepared, and in shape for the hunt. I would respect the guide for his skill and expect only to put in a position to take a shot.
If I ever sensed the kind of contempt for clients that I see coming out here, I would be tempted to point out that I somehow had enough skills to earn enough to pay for his service, and that I wasn't paying for his opinion of my shooting ability

You mean you wouldn't be happy if you split your melon with the guides gun and then the guy you paid got on the internet and talked bad about ya? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Seriously the client and the guide both have obligations.

Actually came back to delete that post, but you had already replied, so I guess I'll let it stand.

I think a lot of people are scared of their rifles. First timers want to get the big baddest rifle they can and find out real quick they can't handle the recoil. I bet that most people that are bad shots would flinch like an SOB if you gave them a rifle with an empty chamber and asked them to shot it.

I know this is the case with a few guys on my deer lease....

I understand. I didnt want to ruffle any feathers . Just a bunch of gun nuts talkin trash.
Mark D said it very well.

Shooting skill remains on the ever diminishing list of things that cannot be fixed by throwing money at the problem and buying an equipment solution. A lot of people don�t realize that. Maybe they watch too much TV or believe too many advertisements.

Shooting skill takes a lot of time, and a lot of people either don�t have it in the first place or don�t want to allocate it. Hiring guides is also a type of time management for many-it is less time consuming to get someone with knowledge of the area to lead them to the game. I suspect that some, if not many, people double up their time savings-hiring a guide and not taking the time to learn to shoot. This thread is about the result.

I heard an outfitter say he was plagued with either hunters that can't shoot or shooters that can't hunt. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> So you are not alone.
Here is something you may want to mention to your hunters that I do before season opens. I leave my rifle out (in the house) and everytime I walk by it I pick it up and dry fire at some spot across the room. It may sound a little silly but it will help a guy out of being rusty and it will also train yourself to remember the exact sight picture when the gun snapped.

I'm sure we all know what the threads about but thanx for the reminder. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Just rember there are two sides to every coin. I'm sure your spot on about time but there are just as many crappy guides as bad shots, if not more. Everyone has to work together. In either event you gotta chuckle about a guide that [bleep] up and doesn't tell his client about the scope resulting in the client splitting his melon. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I think we all screw the pooch one time or another and theres not always room for finger pointing. I will say I sure enjoy reading about other guys missing. It makes me feel a heckuva lot better! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tracks
I read where you were going to delete your post, but left it because there had been a response (thank you for that!), and I just wanted to ask a couple questions without looking like I was sniping at you. First, if you show up in shape and rifle-ready none of this will apply... you will simply do the job.

But what if you do not show up in shape, with equipment vastly different than the guide suggested and with some the guide said "Do not bring" and top that off by missing? I am not saying contempt is the right emotion for the guide to express, but what would be acceptable?

And it goes both ways. I have heard of guides coercing clients to shoot critters that did not meet their expectations; A guide abandoning a client for being too proficient; Guides giving the green light to shoot illegal sheep; Guides breaking all sorts of laws.

About the only point you make I take exception to is the notion that because you could make the money to pay for the hunt you fulfilled your moral obligation...
no insult intended nor taken...
art

No insult taken Art
I think this thread hit a nerve that has nothing really to do with shooting skill or the lack therof
For years I've taken flack from specialists in one of the many skills I'm required to have because I'm not as good in that particular field as they are
Guys who have only done one thing in their entire lives expect others to have equal skills
Welders who knock my welding skills without knowing I'm the guy who set up their exotic gas mixers, or electricians who knock my lack of codes knowledge but have no idea what the control system I've designed and installed is supposed to do.
I did not mean to imply that having the ability to pay for a hunt excused anyone from the moral duty to make a clean kill, that was only to point out that the client may not be a complete idiot
Apoligies to all
Tracks

Now you can say, "I missed him cuz the scope was in my eye!" Now that is funny! Toby, you crack me up dude. Good thing I never miss....damn air lines <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

I am not a professional guide but my most frustrating moments ever occured when guiding a friend to a pronghorn.Knowing that he had never shot an animal at distances farther than 100 yards,I informed him that for pronghorn the distances could be longer and I urged him to put in some time at the local range which by the way is only 10 minutes from his home.With two months to go I asked him how many rounds that he had fired practising.He replied that he had been busy and hadn't got arount to it yet.A month later I asked the same question with the same result.With two weeks to go,I asked again with the same result.With a week to go I gave him the ultimatum that either he would sight in his gun at 200 yards and practise out to 300 yards during the next week or he wasn't going hunting with me.The day before we were to leave,he called and informed me that he had sighted his gun in at 200 yards and had practised out to 300 yards,and that he was hitting good out to 300 yards.On day one of the hunt it rained hard and we saw no decent bucks.On the second day I spotted a decent buck bedded and helped him stalk to within 170 yards of it.Shooting off a bipod which he supposedly practised with,he emptied his gun with the pronghorn only getting up and looking in our direction.I told him to reload anj found out that he had no more ammunition with him.I passed him my rifle and told him where to hold on the buck and he emptied it with the same results.Since this was to be his buck,I hadn't taken any extra ammunition either.We then eased down the ridge and ran the 300 yards round trip to the truck and back for more ammunition.When we returned the buck was slowly walking away at almost exactly 300 yards.He then set up and missed again.Judging by the bucks reaction or lack thereof,I decided that it must have been hit so I took the next shot and dropped the buck.As we walked up to the buck It was apparent that he had struck the bucks brisket with one of the shots which had apparently caused the strange behavior.Had my partner practised as he was supposed to,he would have made a clean kill on the buck and I would not have had to finish it for him.This was nothing more than poor preparation.

I think this thread is on to something. Guides should demand a certain levelof competency be demonstrated befor etaking a client hunting.

It isn't just a lack of practice either. Most people find the idea of paying for coaching alien. I dont really understand it.

A lot of really bad shooting happens at big game in particular. I am sure it's hard to understand by the proficient but it goes on all the time.

Buck fever is a very real thing and many get nervous and fire bad shots. They should not do it but they do and as also pointed out it shows lack of disrespect for the game and our sport.

The particular example is extreme but somehow I don't doubt it.

Perhaps a guide should say to a customer "Aim right at that spot on his shoulder". A reminder works as we can forget to aim well under stress.

A friend of mine is an outstanding shot with pistols, rifles and shotguns but he has not shot or hunted much big game. He had a forkhorn walk out into the open and he fired his rifle three times at it and missed every time. The deer was still there but moving away now at maybe 175 yds. He finally stopped just looking at deer in the field of view and pulling the trigger and he aimed at its shoulder and hit its shoulder with the fourth shot. I don't think that this is uncommon at all. Its not good but it goes on a lot.

The best practice on paper that I have done is shooting in running deer contests where the target is a picture of a deer. This reminds me and I think that I will get some deer targets for my kid and myself to practice on.

Good thread! Sitka, I'm interested in what you said about a guide abandoning a client for being too proficient. Would you please elaborate?

Oh missing seems to be something that a lot of folks can take in stride. Even when it could mean their very lives. I spent the past year as an instructor at my agency's academy. I worked with two other firearms instructors teaching everything from cadets to twenty five year Troopers. We taught Glock 35's, 27's, rem 870's, M-16's, and M-14's. Sometimes I would leave a training day nauseated. I cannot fathom how anyone who would want a job as a peace officer would show up for training and have never touched a firearm of any type. Further, I cannot imagine how anyone who puts on a uniform, hooks up a gunbelt and gets into a cruiser for a days work could do so knowing they couldn't possibly stand on the beach and hit saltwater with their pistol. I always tried to be positive whenever I was on the range, but a couple times I finally just told folks to keep their shotgun inthe front seat.

[quote]I cannot fathom how anyone who would want a job as a peace officer would show up for training and have never touched a firearm of any type.
quote]

It follows the way some people think of guns as evil almost like they could be killed just by being in the room with one locked in the cabinet. That some would assume if you buy a good enough gun it will do its job all by itself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

First let me clear one thing up, Stetson, the guy that whack his melon, was not a client, but just a friend that wanted some meat, so I took him. He didnt have a rifle, because of a nasty divorce, so he took mine. He is NOT a client, and was not paying, I was not bashing him. I was not bashing anyone. It just amazes me, that people pay money, then dont bother to learn to shoot. It dont really matter to me, its just discouraging to work your Azz off to get someone on a really big animal, and he misses 7 times starting at 30 yards. 4 of the shots, the deer was standing broadside with his nose up a does hinney. Bashing no, disgusted yes. But like I said, it just isnt that hard to me to shoot and hit something. But I guess I take for granted how much we on this board do get to shoot. This thread wasnt ment to bash. Sorry if I rubbed your azz the wrong way,

Toby Joe

CC
The situation has been expanded here a few times and written up in at least one bow-hunting magazine. Thumbnail; Randy Ulmer, a serious bowhunter hired Tony Russ, sheep author and holder of the P&Y record dall. Tony could not perform at Randy's level and when Randy insisted they try to stalk a particular sheep Tony took off.

Randy was able to kill the sheep and return later to retrieve it. That involved finding his way back out of the area and then in.

Tony stumbled into an incredible sheep and wrote a couple books. The books have some special moments in them. In his bear book he cautions hunters not to use mauser rifles because they jam. He has work ethic related issues with the other guides he has worked with and many clients have complained along the same lines.

A search would get you more of the details.
art

Here ya go....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.tonyruss.com/

have missed game totally(buck fever) have made a couple bragging shots,but i think im average as a gameshot.i won't try and kill something out of MY range.I shoot more pistol than anything else and if your a cop whose dedicated and practicies and the following offends you i'm sorry,but some yall police can't hit a B27 at 15 yards.being a Fat white guy i love seeing "Mr. Combat Ninja&buddys" at the range"oh? yall pointshoot? latest Tactical heartbreaker lifetaker techinique huh? them sunglasses look cool at night,matches them Black gearbags&holsters...Didn't i read Mas Ayoob&Clint Smith say actually Hitting the target is a good thing?" after i hear how they "learned this in the Military" i simply say closest to center gets a Coke bought by the loser wanna shoot? yall read above where i said i was Fat right? i reckon yall can figure the results(pun intended.)

FWIW there are ranges all over the country that hold highpower matches. Scoped rifles are now welcome at all. But have to be able to fire 10 rounds rapid fire. IE one might have to buy and AR and put a scope on it(cheapest way). Most clubs shoot at least once a month. ITs a great way to get coached for free. Most all Highpower shooters go out of their way to help.

My nephew used to just blast away. Took him under my wing, got him an AR, and he has shot iron sights to 600 yards now. We have not shot as much as we should, but it only took him that amount of shooting to become more proficient.

To me if you can't take the time and money to shoot at least once a month, don't waste the rest of the time and money.

And with highpower -- it doesn't have to be about winning. Lots of folks just like to get trigger time and it gives them that. You'd be surprised how much easier shots become once you practice.

As a kid I would not shoot at a doe (we wanted meat) at about 250 yards because I couldn't hold still enough. My mentor shot it with a 6mm. I was amazed. I was still capable of missing deer at 75 yards if I didnt' have some type of rest. And a sling was only used to carry the gun to the stands...

Years later, and much highpower, a 300 yard shot is a chip shot. As easy as a 25 yard shot used to be.....

Apply yourselves or get lost... IMHO. Its owed to everyone including the game. There is always fishing. If the fish don't bite or you don't hook em, no one is harmed.....(that I can see) Much better than an errant gut shot.....

Jeff

Tango mike, Sitka.

One factor I'd suggest from the client side -- when you're trying to settle down for a shot, it isn't helpful to have the guide saying "shoot, shoot, SHOOT!" all the time.

I've had that a couple times -- once with both the guide and my hunting partner giving me the helpful advice. Naturally I missed on that one.

John

John
I understand your point, but can you imagine how many times critters do not get shot at because the hunter took too long? I cannot tell you how frustrating that is.

I literally had a guy that took over 20 minutes to find a caribou in the scope and pull the trigger. He shot over his back at a little over 100 yards with a 7RM, "...Because he was so far away." Try being patient for 20 minutes. I ended up forcibly dialing his scope down to 3x and dared him to adjust it.

He ended up with the caribou and it is in the top 100 All-Time in B&C... ACtually there are some other elements that rate telling. After missing we chased the 'bou over a ridge. He had been fighting another, virtually equal bull while he was trying to find him in his scope.

We crawled over the lip of the hill and 4 caribou rose; a cow with calf, a young bull and the monster that had to rock his head back and forth to get up.

I whispered "There's your bull!"
"Which one?"

I swear that was the question with those options in front of him.
art

John-you're absolutely right, IMO the guide gets the hunter into position, and then tells the hunter when he is ready to take the shot. Sometimes a bit of a sense of urgency is needed but usually it is the time for the guide to be the cooler and the calmer.

When I am guiding I will not give him the old shoot shoot trick, for the most part this is a recipe for a bad deal. Most guys will get flustered under this kind of pressure. And the kind of guys that won't get flustered under that kind of pressure normally already have the critter down and dead!

Like I said b4 a good guide has to know what his client can and can't do and put him a situation where he can succeed.

Many times I found it best to get him/her into position and then say let me know right b4 you're gonna shoot.

Mark D

"which one"

Man that is hilarious hahahaha <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On a side John-if'n I did ever had a guide that did the old shoot shoot. When I had the time and when it was the correct time I would politely (well maybe not) tell him to be quiet and that I would make it happen when I was ready.

If, he did it again I would most likely drop my gloves to the ice and bitch slap him into the next century!!!

After he came to he would most likely have the hint!

Mark D

TobyJoe,
lighten up! I think maybe you got your horns in a general twist at the moment. PLEASE go back and read where I said I didn't want to ruffle any feathers as well as the sentence where I started with "seriously". This implies I was joking. If this guy paid or or not it was still pretty darn funny. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> However I definately think you were giving him a pretty good kick in the backside and maybe he deserved it. It looks like you had a lot of bad clients this year. I think we all agree that a lot of guys can't shoot for sh** some days, including myself.
PS, My wife took great exception to you rubbing my azz! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

A-men to this

Mark,

That is exactly what I'd hope for. Get me in position, make sure I'm looking at the right critter, maybe tell me "better shoot fast or he'll get behind that rock" and then let me do my part. At that point, a reasonable hunter would know it's all up to him. (Yes, I know that doesn't describe every client.)

Maybe my mind plays tricks on me, but on the elk hunt I was mentioning, I seem to have some memory of my guide and partner jumping up and down in my peripheral vision.

The guide was a pretty big guy -- maybe I missed because the ground was shaking.

Anyway, it turned out fine -- a clean miss that time, and the next day I asked him to hang back while I crawled within 40 yards of a different bull. The antlers are on the wall behind me now.

John

The cheapest part of the hunt, and the one that has possibly the greatest amount of impact on the "impact" is ammunition. We buy a rifle for $800 and a scope for $400 and mounts and a sling, and a case, and goretex, cammo clothing and boots, and a $30,000 vehicle and a $8000 ATV and a licence, and then try to cut costs on ammo.

I have been hunting with an old work buddy the last week or so. The guy is a good hunter, but he won't practice. I load his ammo for him, and I do it at cost 'cause we're friends. I loaded him 50 rounds about 10 years ago, and he has 15 left.

This last week, he has missed two nice cow moose. One because he undersestimated the range, and would not listen to me when I told him to shoot his rifle in three and a half high at 100. The other because he took a jerk out hunting with him -- not me, the one behind the trigger.

My 17 year old daughter told him he needs to go to the shootist's accuracy school. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Hitting a pie plate at 100 yards is not accuracy with modern hunting rifles with scopes.

A real problem I see when watching guys shoot is their trigger control. They crank the trigger, and MAKE the shot break, instead of pressing the trigger, and allowing the shot to break.

And I agree with the poster that said women shoot better than men because they listen, and don't have to be John Wayne.

People need to develop confidence in the rifle and ammo -- that is done on the bench, at known ranges.

People need to develop familiarity with their rifle - dry firing is good, and just shouldering and pointing at stuff is good as well.

Practice with the ammunition you hunt with -- mostly. And shoot smart, not lots. Shooting lots can reinforce a bad habit. Practice with someone who knows how to read a target.

At least, that's what I do.

The thing that floors me about this thread is the number of misses people will tolerate and still hunt with someone. Everyone misses. I'm not perfect. But, if anyone I'm "guiding" ever misses 2 in a row, we're done until the problem (whether equipment or skill related) is diagnosed and the problem solved. Fortunately, it's never happened to me.

Maybe that's a dilemma for a compenstated guide, but it shouldn't be if the rules are clear up front.

There is "guiding" and there is hunting with someone. When hunting with someone you can handle it however you see fit. When "guiding" you need to be able to work it out. And yep the guide is the compensated one.

Now some outfitters out there make it clear up front if you wound a animal then that is your animal and your hunt is over and done if you do not want to continue to finish it. And yeah the concept does get a bit controversial.

Mark D

I get the impression it was a novice shooter using a strange rifle that wasn't set up for him...lop OK ...could he see thru the scope OK....and I bet that 257 STW has a real "bark" to it.

I can see how, without a couple of shots to get used to it, that someone could miss.

I have never been a guide and readily admit I don't have the skills. I belong to a club which has shooting positions for 50, 100, 200 & 300 yards. Every fall we have a couple of public shooting days when non-members can pay a fee and use our facilities. We provide the targets, range officers and helpers for those who need it.

Without an actual count I estimate at least 40% to 50% of the guests need help. Getting them started required us to finally make up a portable target stand that we could set up at 25 yards so they could get on paper.

Some, usually the younger ones, would accept advice gratefully. Once they reach 40 or so they seem to think they know everything they need to. I have been known to comment after some of these "shooters" have left "I'm glad I will not be hunting in the same woods as these guys."

I do not convey this message to the people involved because it is apparent they do not want to learn. This is one of the reasons that I have, for about 35 years flown in for my hunts. I know only my companions and myself will be there and because they are long time friends I know what they are capable of. I also know they will not be taking a random shot in my direction.

Years ago I took an acquaintance from a club I belonge to along on an antelope hunt in Wyoming. It took 6 days of patient effort to get this guy to try a shot. He was finally told we leave in the next 2 hours to go deer hunting and if you haven't tried for an antelope by then you are out of luck. A dumb buck wandered within about 150 yards and the guy reluctantly tried the shot. He missed but the backup (by you know who) dropped the animal. To this day he still thinks he made the killing shot. (I knew whose shot killed the animal because of the type of bullet we recovered when we cleaned it.) Strangely enough at the next ranch he turned in a fine performance on mulies. Go figure. Maybe he needed confidence.

I ahve had guys ask me to help them sight in their rifles. One guy could not hit a piece of regular paper at 100 yards with three shots in a row. He had a cheaper scope, and the mounts looked a little fragile, but he was shooting a 9" pattern. I asked him if I could try his rifle, and was able to put three shots into an inch and a half -- not stellar, but certainly good for moose at 200 - 250. He was jerking the trigger. I tried to be nice, but it is hard to tell someone that they have brought the jerk to the range, and they need to leave him at home, buy some ammunition and do some serious training. This guy was happy with his "group". He's never hit a moose or deer. I told him to let his wife shoot the game. She was shooting 4" at 100 yards.

As far as I know, the guy has not done any more shooting. All you can do is point them in the right general direction, and hope they listen.