Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Why cant people shoot????

I had to laugh at your post. It was written in such a way that I could just SEE the expressions on your face when these guys missed these shots..

There are a lot of reasons that could all point to full-scale inaccuracy.

1 lack of practice shooting, especially offhand or from a quick rest (limb, rock, knees etc..)
2 buck fever.. lifting head off stock.
3 strange rifle - everybody holds a firearm differently and it CAN affect accuracy.

Any or all of the above will do it.

A good hunter and good customer of mine gets a LOT of deer every year but he practices diligently with his rifles from his favorite position, kneeling. He can hit running deer with boring regularity and mentions many times about other guys he hunts with who can't hit a deer from 50 feet much less 300 yards...

Practice, practice, practice. Then practice some more.


Best to you this Christmas

TJT,

Back in the good old days when we had the draft, many people learned to shoot in the military. The rifle instruction there was brief, but also it was effective -- at least on the basics.

With the all volunteer force in effect these many years, many folks do not learn to shoot properly. When they come to hunt with you, they show their lack of good, formal training with the rifle.

I like to recommend that folks take one of the rifle courses out there such as Gunsite's.

jim

I've a few thoughts on this. Both from the hunting with buds side to the guiding side.

First off lack of familiarity and intimacy with their rifle. I've always said this is what counts not what round. To many people just don't take the time to truly become one with their rifle/BB gun or whatever.

Most of my comments here are from the guiding perspective. I've guided (professionally, not the old I took someone hunting so I guided them) from Montana down to Sonora and spent some years up to 180 days a year at it.

First off ego/pride is right at the top of our list. I've long said that hunters/shooters are the most arrogant and prideful and ignorant group of people out there. I mean spend a few minutes around forums like this and you will figure that out toot sweet. And b4 anyone gets up in arms about this I am in this group as well.

Pracitice, both with the weapon and in terms being able to get into a killing position and I mean right now and on demand! It takes a bit of savy to be able to quickly look at the game, the terrain and to figure out in a nano second where to set up. I've seen so many clients trying to watch the game when it is spotted instead of going into kill mode and looking for a good nesting place to get your shot from. I always use the mentality that this is a one shot deal. So set it up right and make it count.

Pracitice with the round, I routinely put between 2500 to 4000 rounds a year thru my 3 main center fires. This does not county the 223 ammo and such. I want to be ready and I want to be in synch with the rifle. My main rifle is on its 8th tube if I remember right. This year so far I've put 1000 rounds thru it. It is a 7 Mashburn Super and it will work for all comers, big to small. One of my fav games is to hit the turf, and get the cheater legs down and to hit the far gong (a smallish one @ 434 yds and to try to get the 2nd shot going b4 the ring of the first one comes to me, tough to do but it does tend to keep me sharp);

The ladies are for the most part always easier to work with, they will listen for the most part none of them come to camp thinking that they are Johnny Leather Legs and have something to prove. They do tend to be a bit slower with the trigger but they will make things happen!

One of my guiding mentors told me that your job is to

*find the game

*acsess the hunters ability with the gun, with their mental abilities and with their physical abilities

*and then it is my job to make it happen based off of how I read the client to be

*but note the finding of them game is the easy part

I had to be able to read the people and the game and put them into a postition for them to win irregardless of their personaly ability.

It do tend to take a lot of patience for sure!

It is a lot of fun and it is not for everyone. I know many super hunters that would make for lousy guides. I also know many average hunters that make super guides!

Just some random thoughts

Mark D

feliz navida

Damn good post there bud...

Were I ever to use a guide service (highly unlikely) I would show up with good equipment, fully prepared, and in shape for the hunt. I would respect the guide for his skill and expect only to put in a position to take a shot.
If I ever sensed the kind of contempt for clients that I see coming out here, I would be tempted to point out that I somehow had enough skills to earn enough to pay for his service, and that I wasn't paying for his opinion of my shooting ability

You mean you wouldn't be happy if you split your melon with the guides gun and then the guy you paid got on the internet and talked bad about ya? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Seriously the client and the guide both have obligations.

Actually came back to delete that post, but you had already replied, so I guess I'll let it stand.

I think a lot of people are scared of their rifles. First timers want to get the big baddest rifle they can and find out real quick they can't handle the recoil. I bet that most people that are bad shots would flinch like an SOB if you gave them a rifle with an empty chamber and asked them to shot it.

I know this is the case with a few guys on my deer lease....

I understand. I didnt want to ruffle any feathers . Just a bunch of gun nuts talkin trash.
Mark D said it very well.

Shooting skill remains on the ever diminishing list of things that cannot be fixed by throwing money at the problem and buying an equipment solution. A lot of people don�t realize that. Maybe they watch too much TV or believe too many advertisements.

Shooting skill takes a lot of time, and a lot of people either don�t have it in the first place or don�t want to allocate it. Hiring guides is also a type of time management for many-it is less time consuming to get someone with knowledge of the area to lead them to the game. I suspect that some, if not many, people double up their time savings-hiring a guide and not taking the time to learn to shoot. This thread is about the result.

I heard an outfitter say he was plagued with either hunters that can't shoot or shooters that can't hunt. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> So you are not alone.
Here is something you may want to mention to your hunters that I do before season opens. I leave my rifle out (in the house) and everytime I walk by it I pick it up and dry fire at some spot across the room. It may sound a little silly but it will help a guy out of being rusty and it will also train yourself to remember the exact sight picture when the gun snapped.

I'm sure we all know what the threads about but thanx for the reminder. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Just rember there are two sides to every coin. I'm sure your spot on about time but there are just as many crappy guides as bad shots, if not more. Everyone has to work together. In either event you gotta chuckle about a guide that [bleep] up and doesn't tell his client about the scope resulting in the client splitting his melon. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I think we all screw the pooch one time or another and theres not always room for finger pointing. I will say I sure enjoy reading about other guys missing. It makes me feel a heckuva lot better! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tracks
I read where you were going to delete your post, but left it because there had been a response (thank you for that!), and I just wanted to ask a couple questions without looking like I was sniping at you. First, if you show up in shape and rifle-ready none of this will apply... you will simply do the job.

But what if you do not show up in shape, with equipment vastly different than the guide suggested and with some the guide said "Do not bring" and top that off by missing? I am not saying contempt is the right emotion for the guide to express, but what would be acceptable?

And it goes both ways. I have heard of guides coercing clients to shoot critters that did not meet their expectations; A guide abandoning a client for being too proficient; Guides giving the green light to shoot illegal sheep; Guides breaking all sorts of laws.

About the only point you make I take exception to is the notion that because you could make the money to pay for the hunt you fulfilled your moral obligation...
no insult intended nor taken...
art

No insult taken Art
I think this thread hit a nerve that has nothing really to do with shooting skill or the lack therof
For years I've taken flack from specialists in one of the many skills I'm required to have because I'm not as good in that particular field as they are
Guys who have only done one thing in their entire lives expect others to have equal skills
Welders who knock my welding skills without knowing I'm the guy who set up their exotic gas mixers, or electricians who knock my lack of codes knowledge but have no idea what the control system I've designed and installed is supposed to do.
I did not mean to imply that having the ability to pay for a hunt excused anyone from the moral duty to make a clean kill, that was only to point out that the client may not be a complete idiot
Apoligies to all
Tracks

Now you can say, "I missed him cuz the scope was in my eye!" Now that is funny! Toby, you crack me up dude. Good thing I never miss....damn air lines <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

I am not a professional guide but my most frustrating moments ever occured when guiding a friend to a pronghorn.Knowing that he had never shot an animal at distances farther than 100 yards,I informed him that for pronghorn the distances could be longer and I urged him to put in some time at the local range which by the way is only 10 minutes from his home.With two months to go I asked him how many rounds that he had fired practising.He replied that he had been busy and hadn't got arount to it yet.A month later I asked the same question with the same result.With two weeks to go,I asked again with the same result.With a week to go I gave him the ultimatum that either he would sight in his gun at 200 yards and practise out to 300 yards during the next week or he wasn't going hunting with me.The day before we were to leave,he called and informed me that he had sighted his gun in at 200 yards and had practised out to 300 yards,and that he was hitting good out to 300 yards.On day one of the hunt it rained hard and we saw no decent bucks.On the second day I spotted a decent buck bedded and helped him stalk to within 170 yards of it.Shooting off a bipod which he supposedly practised with,he emptied his gun with the pronghorn only getting up and looking in our direction.I told him to reload anj found out that he had no more ammunition with him.I passed him my rifle and told him where to hold on the buck and he emptied it with the same results.Since this was to be his buck,I hadn't taken any extra ammunition either.We then eased down the ridge and ran the 300 yards round trip to the truck and back for more ammunition.When we returned the buck was slowly walking away at almost exactly 300 yards.He then set up and missed again.Judging by the bucks reaction or lack thereof,I decided that it must have been hit so I took the next shot and dropped the buck.As we walked up to the buck It was apparent that he had struck the bucks brisket with one of the shots which had apparently caused the strange behavior.Had my partner practised as he was supposed to,he would have made a clean kill on the buck and I would not have had to finish it for him.This was nothing more than poor preparation.

I think this thread is on to something. Guides should demand a certain levelof competency be demonstrated befor etaking a client hunting.

It isn't just a lack of practice either. Most people find the idea of paying for coaching alien. I dont really understand it.

A lot of really bad shooting happens at big game in particular. I am sure it's hard to understand by the proficient but it goes on all the time.

Buck fever is a very real thing and many get nervous and fire bad shots. They should not do it but they do and as also pointed out it shows lack of disrespect for the game and our sport.

The particular example is extreme but somehow I don't doubt it.

Perhaps a guide should say to a customer "Aim right at that spot on his shoulder". A reminder works as we can forget to aim well under stress.

A friend of mine is an outstanding shot with pistols, rifles and shotguns but he has not shot or hunted much big game. He had a forkhorn walk out into the open and he fired his rifle three times at it and missed every time. The deer was still there but moving away now at maybe 175 yds. He finally stopped just looking at deer in the field of view and pulling the trigger and he aimed at its shoulder and hit its shoulder with the fourth shot. I don't think that this is uncommon at all. Its not good but it goes on a lot.

The best practice on paper that I have done is shooting in running deer contests where the target is a picture of a deer. This reminds me and I think that I will get some deer targets for my kid and myself to practice on.

Good thread! Sitka, I'm interested in what you said about a guide abandoning a client for being too proficient. Would you please elaborate?

Oh missing seems to be something that a lot of folks can take in stride. Even when it could mean their very lives. I spent the past year as an instructor at my agency's academy. I worked with two other firearms instructors teaching everything from cadets to twenty five year Troopers. We taught Glock 35's, 27's, rem 870's, M-16's, and M-14's. Sometimes I would leave a training day nauseated. I cannot fathom how anyone who would want a job as a peace officer would show up for training and have never touched a firearm of any type. Further, I cannot imagine how anyone who puts on a uniform, hooks up a gunbelt and gets into a cruiser for a days work could do so knowing they couldn't possibly stand on the beach and hit saltwater with their pistol. I always tried to be positive whenever I was on the range, but a couple times I finally just told folks to keep their shotgun inthe front seat.