Horse Problem........What to do????

......the big paint is a great trail horse.....I've taken him straight up, nasty, rough trails.....he never misses a beat......doesn't like crosing bridges or water much, but I can manage that. He one big flaw is.....he hates being tied up! He has broken every kind of lead I've tried....even pulled out the turnbuckle from the barn a couple of times. More strength than sense for sure! He usually breaks the latch on the leads.....and I hate to just tie a rope lead straight to the halter, I like the convience of taking the latch on and off with ease. He is fine as long as he is not left un-attended, but as soon as he is by himself, something is gonna break!B'cat,....do you think the rope line you use will have enough give to it that he won't be able to break it? I'm thinking tieing him to something solid gives him the ability to break it, but something that will stretch or give might hold...... ....I'm thinking of stretching a line in the pasture and keeping him tied up all night as though I was in the backcountry.....would rather know now if I can hold him for an over-nighter! [Linked Image]

....may have to go to Boggy's electric fence idea......but dand it....I need to be able to tie him up! ...any ideas???? DS

Slayer it is a common problem especially with big horses. You have to break him from it before he gets totally spoiled. He does it because he has found out he can. And every time he gets away with it convinces him more that he can. Now you have to have a horse that is still there where you parked him when ever you come back to him. Use a log chain if you have too and put a big old split ring in it so you can thread the free end of the chain back through it and leave him tied to something he can't break. Make it just a tad shorter than your lead rope and put them both on him. Tie him high so he won't get tangled and go nuts. When he sets back and finds out the he gets choked when he tightens up the lead rope it will discourage him. Sort of like a choke collar on a dog. It will take a while but he will convince himself that he can't break it and will quit trying after a while. Don't get all softhearted and let him go too quick. Half a day is not too long to be tied up. BCR

a small chain passed from the ring on the side of the halter under your horses chin and fastened to the ring on the other side of the halter will also discourage him from pulling back, as in the last post, dont get soft hearted on him, his chin will probably get bloody, but horses arent stupid, he will get tired of the chain hurting his jaw, we used to use jaw chains on mules all the time, they figure it out quickly, i have a young paint that does the same thing, he's fixin to get the chain treatmeant real soon...gut

Some god advise from both posters above DS. If you have a good nylon halter, get a calf pulling chain from Mountain vet supply in Fort Collins. They are over near the sale barn on I-25 and Hwy 13. Put the chain thru the place where the lead rope hooks on all the way around his nose and back thru the ring where the lead rope hoooks. Then have a good strong lead rope tied securely. When he pulls back it will apply extreme pressure to his nose and he will stop that nonsense. You might have to use it all the time, unless he realy hurts his nose the first time. Sometimes it cures them sometimes you have to use that kind of setup permanently. Kinda like a shocking collar on a dog. SOmetimes they know when the shocking collar is on and when it isnt, and you will just have to see if you can trust him after the training. Good lucck and let us know how it works. bcat------------------ If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting Homepage </A>

Another option that's a lot lighter than a chain. Get a rope halter, nylon. They put more pressure on the nose and top of the head, and they are thin enough to hurt a little. Then, get a thick spun nylon rope and tie it directly to the halter. There's no hardware to break. We use this on our young horses and they learn very quickly. Bull-headed mules too. They give up trying. You can leave it on all night, and tying them all night isn't a bad idea anyway. I'd be a little hesitant to leave them tied with some of the chain ideas, at least until I've tried the rope halter. Slayer, if I recall correctly you're from Wyoming, so finding a rope halter shouldn't be a problem.

Slayer, You have to be very careful, these things can work, or be a death trap. We had neighbours who tied the mare to a fence, and she strangled herself because there was no give. The rule in guide books is to never tie a horse up with a briddle, or a chain. On the bridge of the nose you have there wind pipe and many sensory nerves, which can create a lot of damage. A couple method I have been told about are you take some sort of rope and place it inbehind the ears, then run it through the ring under the chin on the halter. Make sure you you wrap the rope in cotton or some sort of material so it doesn't cut into them. The other method I have seen in magazines and TV, it is similar to the other method, but instead of going behind the ears it goes inbehind the withers, between the front legs and through the ring. Make sure you are nearby to make sure nothing goes wrong. Also with a horse that fights like that, there is no give in a rope or chain, which can actually throw their spine off, and cause severe muscle damage in the neck. You can pick up almost any vet book and see the results. Having a strong rubber lead of some sort to tie with during the training is a good idea, because it gives, but it is still strong. the guy whos horses I am training tried this on one of his mares that would pull post out of the ground, all she did was tried pulling three times, and to this day has never attempted to pull again. Well good-luck, and keep a watchful eye, because horses panic and can get themselves into trouble.Tonya [Linked Image]

Well, slap me silly!...I'm shocked this is more common than I thought! Boggy, you described he to a tee when you said "when he sets back".....because that's exactly what he does!B'cat....I'm on my way after the calf pulling chain....it never dawned on me to use chain instaed of rope. And running it under his chin or over his nose is a great idea! ...and don't worry about me going soft on him....I'm ready to take a ball bat to his head! He's one damn fine ride on the trails.....but if, as Boggy says, he doesn't stay parked where I leave him......well, let's just say that would be less than an ideal situation! [Linked Image]

....and don't think even after I break him from this crap, I won't still hobble his butt the first few times back-in! [Linked Image]

DS

Well, you guys sure came through for me!.....got the chain this morning B'cat, and I did what you told me Boggy, got him all chained up to something he couldn't break, say my barn!....and put the lead on as well.........in the first ten minutes he tried half dozen times, laying back with all he had,......then, as his nose began to deteriate, he decided it was much better to have a bruised ego than a bruised snout! [Linked Image]

He then stood there for more than 3 hours with not so much as a pull. I think that will be part of his daily exercise!.....and the chain might accompany me afield as well....better safe than sorry! [Linked Image]

.....thanks a many guys! DS

Glad to help Slayer. Now don't let him go too quick cause I guarantee you he will try it again. He may not the very next time you tie him but he has pulled loose more times than he hasn't, right. So he will try again.When finding out he can't overwhelms the memory of being able to he will quit trying, not before. BCR

Duely noted, Boggy.....in fact, the wife and I rode them to the top of Horsetooth Mountain this afternoon, and I whipped out the old chain while he grazed for a half hour or so before we started back down.......can't trust him yet!I'll be willing to tote the chain along for the piece of mind it gives me,...at least for a long while..... DS

Let the fun began ---DS thats right that you shouldnt trust him for a long while.Its better he has a sore bloody nose then he runs off and really gets into trouble. A horse you cant tie up is one pain in the butt. I have only had one that started that crap and a few times tied with something that she couldnt break did the trick.She diceded that the hurt nose wasnt worth it,and all I had to do was stand back and watch.

Hey Girlfriend....you back from your shoot?! How did ya do?That big ol' brute has sure shaped up the last few days....I think in a couple of months I'll probably have him out of it. He's such a good horse, even with his pulling back on the tie rope, I like him a lot more than my other one. He has a good personality. DS

Uhhhhh, Slayer.....did you try the emergency brake?? [Linked Image]

badger PS: I know I have absolutely no business throwing in my half cent here, I know which end of the horse NOT to feed, & thats about it....... ------------------ Gun control is good bullet placement.....[This message has been edited by badger (edited June 05, 2001).]

DS,back and getting ready for the next one. Steve got a first place and our granddaughter got a first place (this was her second shoot) gotta love this kid. Hey what can I say about me--I had fun. Lets just say I wou'nt be giving up my rifle anytime soon.LOL Have fun with the horses, just hearing you talk about yours brings back so many fun storys,Its a wonder some of us are still alive.

Steve must be quite the archer,does he shoot a compound or longbow? .....and good on your grand daughter! [Linked Image]

....and you, well,....er...um.....ok I've said enough! [Linked Image]

DS

DS,we all shoot compounds. Steve just bought a Mathews and I just got a high country. We bought Sidney a browning. I am getting better LOL does that count---- We both had Reflex bows. Mine needed to be upgraded and Steve had a limb problem with his --didnt know how long it would be gone so he bought the mathews. We didnt want to have to wait very long to get his bow back. His came back in two weeks--oh well ,its only money ,right LOL Sidny does quite good at most things---you and her have something in common ,she just got dumped off of a horse LOL Her first horse wreck.She told me it wasnt her papas fault ,it was the stupid horses fault LOL

Does Steve like his Mathews?......was it worth the money?....I've been looking at one, $800! Half the people I talk to say don't do it, the other half say best bow you can get....???????? DS

DS-Glad the chain trick worked. I have never heard of a horse actually hurting themself using this trick. I dont know where Tonya came up with her stuff on it, but I have never seen it do anything permanent to any horse, but have seen many cured with this type of action. Women tend to baby their horses a little bit we call it "SQUAW BROKE"....I have way more problems with Squaw Broke horses than with the the horses broke the old fashioned way. Just being honest here. Women tend to worry about hurting their witto noses... [Linked Image]

They assosiate pain with obediance in this case and thats the only cure I know of . bcat

LOL now Bcat ----I hate to say it but you could be right ,ouch that hurt LOL DS,Steve really likes this bow ,but he also like his Reflex.So I think its better to go try out as many good bows as you can and pick the one that feel the best. One thing about the Mathews is that its said to have great customer service and fast turn around if there is a problem. Steve shoots fingers and so was having a hard time finding a bow --this mathews fit.

I have a PSE with all the trimmings, I can't bring myself to stick a deer. Anyone interested drop me an e-mail. Will trade! [email protected] -- noMathews, top of the line, and proud of it, kinda like Weatherby.------------------ A hint to the wise is sufficient! Smiles are contagious, infect everyone!

Need One,I am just wondering,you said you cant bring yourself to stick a deer?Why do you feel that way? I am guessing you rifle hunt? I felt that way for awhile,ButI am not sure why I felt that way.I was thinking maybe because I was so used to seeing and getting everything with a rifle that I couldnt see where a bow would do the trick.I have changed my mind---or so I think ,as I havent yet taken anything with a bow.I will be trying this fall.(and I sure am not giving up my rifle)

MD4, nobody asked me but like Sonnie I can't stick one either. I'll tell you why if you will please believe that I am not fussing at you are anyone else for bow hunting. I don't like the way they kill and where I hunt it is too thick. I have found too many dead deer with an arrow stuck in them (5 in the last two seasons) for me to trust a bow. A deer hit with an arrow has to bleed to death and there isn't any tissue destruction to speak of. Deer gets out of sight you likely won't find him. I know it happens with rifles too but not as likely. BCR

Boggy,you wont see me getting upset over someone thinking different then me,I asked and I am glad you spoke up. I can understand what your saying, no one likes to see any animal not put down fast. I can see where that thick stuff would make it hard to track in and the fact that once you get one with a bow you want to leave it alone for a while. I will have to give it my best and see if I can get something in range.Last year being my first to hunt deer with a bow I had a doe at about 30 yard ,I had my pin on her but I couldnt let it fly. LOL It looked like a long way out for just a sharp stick LOL. This year I feel alot better about it and I might be able to let one fly.But then again you know how hunting goes, I wont get the chance this time LOL Like I said I will not be giving up my rifle anytime soon ---I couldnt take not getting to bring home some meat.Its been about 12 years in a row now that I have gotten something with my rifle. Eating my tag would be a real hard thing to do LOL

Sonnie....I had a PSE a few bows ago....great bows, but I'm looking for the most speed I can get, and that just about leaves me shooting a high dollar bow and a carbon arrow. While guiding for B'cat, we called dozens of bulls into 50 yards, but then they'd hang up, looking for the cow. Getting them to 50 yards was a lot easier than getting them to 30. A fast bow can easily extend a hunters range to 50 or 60 yards.Boggy, I have to disagree with you on this. I have bowhunted whitetails in the south for nearly 20 years, and only remeber loosing two. In that same time, I lost at least that many with a gun. I have killed over 250 whitetails in 25 years of hunting them, and have had my share of watching them die. I have taken deer with a bow that never left my sight they expired so quickly. I almost always have a blood trail that looks like someone used a red paint bucket. A well placed, sharp broadhead will sever enough arterys that a deer will usually expire within only a hundred yards or so. I've had them stand there and never even know they've been hit, then just see their legs go out from under them. I know many Antis like to use bowhunting as the symbol of barbaric hunting and suffering, but I can tell you, most people that take the time to chase deer or elk with a stick, know their business, and are capable of a well placed shot, which has a super high percentage of recovery. ....I didn't mean to go off here, but I firmly believ bowhunting is both ethical humane, as well as productive, when a hunter has fined tuned his game. The same thing can be said for gun hunting, unless a hunter fine tunes his game, their can be some horrible situations there as well.B'cat, I did just like you told me,...went out and got the chain, and haven't had any problems since! Hope you and Big D got a second chance at that big ol bear this week! DS

Well you may call it SQUAW BROKE, but I have done rather well in all the trail I have been in. I have placed first a many times. I had one gelding that would sit back and pull posts out of the ground. I didn't correct that with chains, I simply taught him to ground tie. Afterwards I could tie him up whenever I wanted, and he doesn't pull anymore. The vet in our area says we have the best behaved horses she has worked with. He never has to twitch or tranquilize them. I have used a chain over my mares nose, but I use the way you would with a dog on a choke chain. I'll see if I can get my mom to scan some pictures from the vet book. Even the people with the Lipizzan stallion show tie their horses with 'fishing line type string' so it will snap as soon as they pull in anyway. I have seen a horse die because of it( AND IT NEVER PULLED AGAIN!), but I guess it actually has to happen to some people before they think twice about doing it again. Its been lucky that nothing has happen so far, just like some people get away with drinking and driving without killing themselves or anyone else. ( I don't reccommend it) As my friend here with me says "at least it keeps the vets in business."Well I'll let everyone carry on with their "breaking" techniques, rather than "training," I find it nicer to have a horse that'll trust me and do anything for me when I "ask" it to.The problem with Squaw broke horses is,its the old fashion people that don't know how to ask it to do what you want. It ends up being a slave and master relationship rather than a friendship or partnership, because people aren't willing to educate themselves, and take the easy abusive road instead.

Slayer friend, On the bow hunting I won't argue with you. Like I said to MD4 I am not fussing. I won't ever fuss at anybody doing any thing legal that they like to do. [Linked Image]

I wonder about it sometimes though. [Linked Image]

I just said that I (me myself only) won't stick one with a bownarrer and said why. BCR

.......Boggy, I did "respectfully" disagree.....as, in my opinion, you sre one of the most knowledgable posters on this board, I I respect your opinions immensly..... ...I guess that os why I felt the need to "defend" my choice to bowhunt.....I respect yours and Sonnie's decision not to,.....just hope you guys don't think any less of me because I choose to...........looks like Tonya is a little riled about the "squaw broke" comment! [Linked Image]

....I think B'cat was only making a point, that women sometimes are a little "softer" on horse or other animals than those darn ol' calice men are! [Linked Image]

DS

Hey DS ,I have a good one for you on squaw broke horses .Just a little twist. When I worked for a veterinarian as a tech. i went out on lots of farm calls.Well being that i am (lets say not very tall)LOL some of the men had a hard time believing i could handle THERE horses. I had been out to this house before while working on a big thorougbred that had a bad cut on his leg.The next time we went out the owner was there and pitched a big fit that I could not handle this horse,my boss tried to tell him we worked togather all the time and he would rather I handled the horses for him. Well after going round and round my boss gave in. So here stands this owner right in front of the horse petting his little nose and saying now dont be scared you know I am your friend it wont hurt.It was so hard not to laugh but my boss gives me the LOOK like watch out here in comes----and as soon as he touched the leg that great big old horse struck out and nailed the guy right between the legs and sent him flying throught the pole fence,he broke it with his back let go of the horse and was in a ball on the ground. My boss never missing a beat said Hey Deb grab the horse and lets get this job done LOL The owner finally gets up and limp into the house----He never came out again when we had to come back. He was upset that we had used a twitch on his (new best friend)Didnt seem to mind after that. Sometime its the men that are bad. S

Killer, -- ole "no" don't care what you hunt with, I know one guy that shot five deer, with his bow, year before last in Kalifornia and recovered one. He also shot a bear, even hunted for it with a flashlight and his WIFE. I don't have to hunt with a bow and take a chance, so I don't, just like I don't take long shots at game, I don't have to. Not to say I haven't or won't take a shot across a meadow or canyon, but everything must be right. Wounded suffering animals are not my thing, when I touch that trigger I am sure of the outcome and it's not a Texas heart shot. If the shot is not what it should be the animal wins and I eat beef. I hunt off other hunters pushing the game around and I have the advantage of placing the shot. Out back wilderness hunts are different and terrain dictate how anyone should hunt. To glass across canyon and try to stalk in Colorado is folly, far too many hunters on public land, especially the first three days of the season. JMHO -- no ------------------ A hint to the wise is sufficient! Smiles are contagious, infect everyone!

Slayer Like I said I never think less of anybody hunting any legal way that pleases them. I admire your ability to sneak close enough to one to stick it I just don't want to do it myself. [Linked Image]

On the horse deal you can have either a working horse or a pet horse. Not to say you and your horse can't be friends and partners but you are going to have to come down heavy on one side or the other. You take your pick because only you know what you want. Now this is just my thinking after a lot of years of watching. Where people get in trouble with horses is they forget they are animals. They ain't furry people. Their mind doesn't work like yours does. They are large, strong, relatively stupid animals that are prone to nervous prostration when put under strange and unsettling circumstances. They can and will kill you in a heartbeat maybe not meaning to but still will. It is nice to have a horse trained to ground tie. But you let a thunder storm come up while you are off somewhere and your pony is ground tied and a bolt of lightening and clap of thunder and you can go look for him back at the barn cause he is going home if he can. Doesn't even take that, just let a plastic bag blow in his face. He is going back and when he busts the "tie" he is gone. Take care of your horse and like your horse just don't forget for a moment that he is a horse. BCR

Boggy, one of the best posts I've read in a long time,...and make no mistake, I want him to work. I'll head your words.....Sonnie, I can tell by your words, you have hunted more than your share of seasons in Co. You describe it to a "T"......Deb,.....good on ya, again!....your so right that a lot of the times it's us big men who are bad! [Linked Image]

DS

I guess I have to stick my nose into both topics in this discussion. First of all Tonya, the "SQUAW BROKE" comment was a HUGE generalization and not a shot at you. I am sure you are a very good horseman/horsewoman and second of all, I know the difference between training and breaking. Both methods can and should be used when training a horse. I despise heavy handed horse breakers, because they can ruin a horse just as fast as someone who squaw breaks their horse. Horses with bad habits tend to those that have been spoiled and have got away with something, and the "TRAINER" wasnt much of a trainer. I would never beat on a horse, and I dont believe in it. The horse I ride is very high spirited, and someone has worked him over around his head, but after a couple years we have got him to trust us and isnt nearly as headshy as he used to be. You know what I mean about spoiled SQUAW BROKE horses. ANd in saying that it doesnt have to be a squaw that did it, but rather someone who is afraid to make the horse mind his manners. On the archery subject. I was always the one saying "thats why the indians lost the war"!!! [Linked Image]

Until last year after we had a lion hunter that was really good with a bow. I have never seen a lion come out of the tree deader than when killed with a bow. Frank got me interested in hunting with a bow and I really love it now. I am very hesitant to let the arrows go because I am not confident past thirty yards yet, because I too have found lots of wounded game because of arrows. On the other hand I have found lots of wounded game from rifles too, so I guess it all boils down to the good and the bad archers, and same with the rifle hunters. I know that with the right bow and lots of practice, I have witnessed Frank shoot a barn cat with a rubber tipped arrow at 80 yards. Jason Lee can also hit consistantly at that range with his bow. I am not that good and may never be, but I enjoy getting close to the animals, whether I get to shoot at them or not. The closest I ever got was ten yards last fall and the hunter stuck the big 6x6 in the shoulder bone and the arrow fell out. We bugled the bull for another half hour or so but couldnt get within the majic 40 yard range of this hunter. He was within 80 yards the whole time, but too far for his comfortable shooting range. I have killed elk that had arrrows stuck in them from archery season and it aint pretty!! [Linked Image]

But it is fun and I am going to continue doing it becuase it gives me another month to hunt!!! [Linked Image]

bcat------------------ If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting Homepage </A>