What's the deal with the American prairie reserve? Good for Montana? Good for hunters? Heard a podcast with an apr rep that sounded ok, but also had some weird moments (concerning hunter access).

Merry Christmas

I want to find out as well.....I want to hear the facts, no rhetoric from either side...……..bob

I think you will find that the private landowners aren’t as taken with this philosophy as those that are promoting this concept...

Yup !

Dipshits from all over have thought about how they can steal Montana and wide open spaces for their own concept of using someone else’s property for their benefit. This isn’t new...

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/22/us/plan-for-preserve-aired-in-montana.html

What struck me as odd in the podcast a question was posed to the effect of "could you add into your mission statement a promise to always provide some sort of public hunting easement?" The rebuttal was to the point "no". And then subject of legal easements should be studied for years before putting them in writing due to the difficulties of changing them. Which wasn't the question. Nobody wanted the actual physical easements in place, it was a ceremonial gesture of good faith (in my opinion) that hunters would always be welcomed in some fashion.

Then the apr rep bemoaned lazy tightwad hunters that are unwilling to pay their fair share for wildlife conservation.......not really the stance I'd take if I was begging for money....

My understanding of the APR is that they buy the land. How is that “stealing” someone else’s property?

I wonder where they get the money to buy land?

I'm not from MT, however I looked into APP a bit on their own website. When I look on a map of exactly what they have and where they have it, what's apparent to me is that they can buy a few small (for that country) private pieces and lock-up/deny access to enormous pieces of public land.

The board of directors has some Bios on their website, you might have a look into them.

https://youtu.be/QUW-XemFSFo

I found it interesting that Mr Gerrity gushes about hunting with Steven Rinella, but fails to even mention it at Google......odd. it almost sounded like a big part of his life and apart of conservation, but yet he forgot all about it.

Like so many so called "conservationist" groups out there, APR has been able to paint themselves as pro hunter. They use this to avoid massive backlash against their buying of enormous chunks of land and taking it out of production. They put buffalo on the land and then when they get out, they aren't very neighborly. It's all a big hippie pipedream tied to the Big Open. They are hated in ranching communities by virtually everyone. Hollywood/ big city money is buying up Montana so it can be made into this fool's wonderland.

I know several people that have hunting big game and upland birds on APR property. No complaints.

When I look at what they've purchased, it looks to me like they could nearly close off public access to the N side of the CMR.

Can you imagine only being able to access the CMR by the Hwy on the W end or via the river with the only other option being paying $125/night to stay in one of their Yurts?

I have 0 issue with working ranches doing what they do. I have serious complaint about buying up land specifically to block access to even larger parcels of public land.

It is also odd that all the APR proponents don't own any of that land, haven't lived there, drive a Subaru Outback and yet they know what is best for that land and America. They don't address farmers and ranchers, only their Utopian idea of another wilderness and not only that but the largest in America, referencing the Serengeti in Africa and using it as a model to bring Africa to the plains of Montana.

All Gerrity said is we, us and his view of what he wants to do with Montana. He doesn't like farming and ranching taking up the land to raise beef and grain, when it could be used for a better purpose, APR.

He not only lays claim to private property but all state, BLM, and federal land within his proposed "Ecosystem." How he can propose that when he and his kind keep claiming the Republicans want to privatize federal land, and under his Model, he can change and manage much of the same property they want left alone. When you show me the ranches and farms with "For Sale" signs and the landowners with their hands out for his "buy out" money, then maybe I would be less critical...

so if a rancher buys the land, and intends to block access…...then that is different? .its all the same......bob

The vast majority of rancher's block access, and most deny hunting access to the public given the prevailing prices outfitters will pay. I'd rather have bison grazing on unbroken landscape than cows on fenced-up sections.

I'll keep an open mind about this as I don't have all the facts. However, there's a lot of popular sentiment expressed on this thread, most of which would have left us without National Parks, National Forest, or Wilderness Area's.

> I would agree both ways are very wrong,but some on this post got their own deals with the ranchers in a small way. but in the future we could all lose ? some working ranchers do block access and that`s not good either !

You are an unhappy import that wants what is best for you and don’t want to respect private property rights that have existed longer than Montana has been a state. Quit your bitching about ranchers and landowners that don’t want you on their property or go back to where you came from...

You been arrested yet for defacing public property?

Funny a criminal lecturing me...

And of course you're too ignorant to understand the irony of land seizure in Montana...

if trump foundation wants to buy all that land and more, have there own recreation area , so to speak,
willing buyer, willing seller type deal, pay 2x what the real market will bear, good or bad?

more taxes for local economy?, could cut of access, but so could anyone, dont understand rationale of being upset over private parties buying private land and doing as they see fit, pay there taxes ect,,,, wilkes have a big piece of pie in montana , what if they want to run buffalo on there land?

i live there, own property, recreate, ect, locales really seem to hate the idea, i hate the ideas of some of the locales how they treat there land and there leases,,, but im not trying to tell them what to do with there private land,,,,

ive spent numerous days recreating on AP land so far, some of it well managed some of it not so much,

way to many legal roads thru the north side to worry about closing all access,
will always be a great debate though,,,

This sums it up, at least partially. Open mind, you have to be kidding. Against the livestock industry, absolutely...

Un-prosecuted felon, absolutely...

pretty much how I think about it...……….bob

>>>1st Chuck Norris of Montana NO YOUR A DEAD BEAT "FELON" IN MONTANA ! why has this felon not been arrested ? somebody needs to contact a law office and put this idiot in jail/prison !

>> Bob you 110 % right << thanks for posting the truth !

How long have Local ranchers been buying up private land to lock up large parcels of public? Seems to me that the rate at which it's happening has increased exponentially with the advent of the outdoor channel and the internet. Maybe I'm wrong, I only really started paying attention to that sort of thing about 2000 when I'd graduated college and landed a career that afforded me enough time and $$ to consider hunting out of state. For all I know that sort of thing has been going on since WWI.

My opinions regarding APR come from reading what I've read on their website including the BIO's of their BOD, nothing more. I've spent a whopping 2.5 days in that country during opening week of 2018 deer/elk season and that's the only time I've spent off of Hwy 2 in that country. That said, I can read a map and it wouldn't take very many road closures in that country to have an awful lot of the W end of the CMR inaccessible short of Hwy191 or coming up off of the river.

There's a loop off of Cow Island Road that runs through the Wilkes Ranch on the NE end and through the Pinwheel ranch on the SW end. That loop of trail provides access to nearly 100Sq Mi within 3Mi of the trail. When we got to the Wilkes Ranch access to that trail was gated off and posted private road, which it certainly appears to be. ~2300ac blocks access to 100Sq Mi. According to the big paper map we bought in Chinook or Harlem (can't recall which) it looks like this should be a public trail but given how the gate was signed, I wasn't about to test the water. Based on the BLM maps and GPS chips I have, It wouldn't take but about 12-15 similar situations and the N end of the CMR would be nearly impossible to access.

We weren't really hunting, more scouting deer #'s and access to country we'd never been in. We'd killed our elk early further south and decided to look at new country. I can't say I hunted any of that country, more like took a few days driving around with binocs and spotting scopes.

If I'm missing something, I'm all ears.

horse...…..my point is ...it doesn't matter who buys it...….rancher, or anyone else...….more than likely access will be cut off.

been happening since the west has been settled.....

if it is for sale, its going to be bought...……….on the other hand, friend of mine had a ranch eastern montana….put it up for sale no one bought it till either the land or nature conserves' bought and gave it to the CMR …..now its all public land.

everyone had a chance to buy it...…...bob

Everyone wants to make the claim that ranchers buy the land to close it off same as possible with APR.

Not true. Not a valid comparison.

True, some ranches are bought by private parties and they clamp down access. But show me a rancher who is acquiring land in the scope the apr is with the specific desire to control the wildlife and access. Not out there.

apr is a consortium of out-of-state money that is being used to greatly alter the landscape of our rural area. Read the bios of those behind this. If you think these guys have anyone's interest at heart but their own idyllic view of how us they know better than the rest of us about how things should be done, you are kidding yourself. Typical liberal viewpoint that they are so much smarter than the rest of us.

look at a bunch of ranches for sale,,,,, if the public land attached to the private, that fact would never be mentioned in an add,,,,,, ranches are sold everyday on the fact of how much public land leases go with the ranch, how well those public parcels can be secured,

over night a 1000 acre deeded ranch is advertised as a 4500 acre ranch and priced accordingly, but , its still 1000 acre of private, health of range and wildlife on those leases add many dollars to the total price,,,,

not many of us, if we had the funds, would not do the same as apr, buy and piece together a large spread so we can control access, resources( water, grass, wildlife),

look at sold realestate in the west , over 1000 acres, when your research is done, tell us how many of these ranches have controlled access to the resources, leased to outfitters, non tresspassing, private resorts of such, its being done everyday,,,


now if apr were scamming every landowner out of there land or locking every gate maybe i would be dead set against them, in the coming years pay attention to private land access and see if it gets better or worse for us non-rich people,,,

i could almost see the day that APR and CMR end up in bed together, will just take the right political climate,,,,

VERY WELL SAID AND POSTED ! this is what I have been saying and posting too !

DENIED ACCESS and Montana shoulder season go hand in hand just watch how poor elk hunting will be in a few years ?

So why don't the locals want these guys buying land, they're hippies and won't be running cows?

I thought all you right wingers believed in private property rights. Or is that only when convenient?

who says they don't?...…...for the record......I am for property rights....be it...ranchers....tree huggers...or the guy with a house in a subdivision.....bob

This thread is a literal retard magnet.

Throw in some wolves, wilderness trophy homes and a whole bunch more outta state money/influence and we'll be saved!


And buffalo and yurts....



How could I forget that eco-tourism is gonna be our saving grace.



Hunting?



Yeah right.



Like I said, retard magnet.



Seacrest out.

t

the thing is......if someone puts their land up for sale........no telling who's going to buy it.........bob

I've done a fair bit of hunting on APR land and I have no complaints about the access.

Also, a deal struck between a willing buyer and a willing seller is nobodies business but the 2 parties involved.

If you don't like APR buying private land, good, find some funding and out-bid them or stop complaining.

I don't dive a flying fuuck about them buying land.


It's their intentions that annoy me.


Of course you'd suck it right up.

I don't give a "flying fuuck" what your intentions are with the land you own, nor should you care about anyone else's intentions on land they own.

You either value/respect private property rights or you don't...period.

I'm not talking about private property.

I also don't care who leases BLM, FS, or State as long as they pay their required fees...you shouldn't either.

Would you care if we wanted to change the rules on our lease to benefit our long term goal(s)?


Maybe you aren't aware.



The end game is free range buff declassified from the current livestock status to wildlife.

As in free range......

As in sorry neighbors, my buff are no longer my livestock so I don't have to keep them in my pasture.


Wildlife free to go where ever they want.



IMO that is pretty disrespectful to your neighbors. Cows are one thing to fence out, buff I hear require a little more FENCE.


Not to mention the negative economic impact to the area where some of us actually live and work.

Lots of "ifs" there Sam.

I doubt if bison are going to be reclassified as wildlife in Montana, in particular with the current make up of the State Legislature.

As far as fencing goes. If I live in Montana or Wyoming and I don't want your livestock grazing my land and chitting on my porch, I have to fence them out. That sword cuts both ways, but seems you don't like it when on the receiving end of fencing out others livestock.

I don't have a problem with Turner having bison, I don't have a problem with APR having bison either. Livestock is livestock and the definition applies the same to cattle as bison.

No, I wouldn't care about you changing your lease as long as it was approved by the Agency/owner you were leasing from.

At least you're being honest.
(about where you stand)


Absolutely not surprising.



But I do think you are being naive in regards to APR's long term objectives regarding 'sport' hunting.



Time will tell.

i think there is some bison north of hwy 2, that run amuck from time to time,,,, they cant tell where there supposed to be without a fence,,,

spent few thousand dollars fencing 100 acres few years ago because neighbors dont feel like spending money to keep cows home and my alfalfa is for the deer,,,, livestock enforcement officer made a believer out of me it was "my" problem,,,,

and its a felony to shoot those wondering cows damaging my property,,,, i understand the fencing requirements for cattle vs bison, been on both sides of that fence,,,,,,, ag industry has too much "pull" to let bison status be changed i am thinking,,,, so not much worry of free range bison in our lifetimes(if your over 30) , ha,,,,

how about 8000 head of elk on APR, whose gonna complain about that,,, (just a number for instance), elk are allready managed based on landowner wants/needs vs actual carrying capacity,

i have spent some time trying to classify, identify, the actual negative economic impact, vs not much impact vs positive impact, i am not smart enough to get there though, dont have a PHD,

i see, hear read the hate, blame discontent in the area at the bars, grocery stores, race track ect,,,, but i have seen heard some postive vibes about what is being done on their stuff right now,,,

i wish i could find a pic of the signs couple years ago in the area, was pretty much aimed sportsmen not helping to keep APR out of the area, so the landowners arent going to help you sportsmen out, ACCESS, was the direction locals were headed,,,,,

dont know the right answer but i want my private property rights respected as much as i want apr and sams respected, whether you have cows, sheep , llamas, or a whiskey still

Sam, I also respect and understand your position and concerns, they are legitimate and have merit.

I agree, time will tell and hopefully things work out for the best.

if they landlock a bunch of blm we can have a new place to fly into,,,,

I dont care about them buying land, I dont care about them leasing public land. I do care about them acting like hunters are a vital part of their management plan while talking to hunters (to garner support and $$$ in donations) and not even mentioning hunting while pitching it to silicon valley types (while also begging for money).

It seems disingenuous at best, and shady at worst.

Prediction, once they complete their grand plan, the only thing you'll be doing on apr land is photo safaris, and glamping.

From the APR web on "Hunting"

I suppose you're OK with the Wilkes and Koch Brothers buying up large Ranches, at least their not You know your not going to get to hunt those places and up front that's GOOD?

APR web on Hunting

Again, look at who is behind this and what they have done in the world. Ignore what they are writing.

Sam is right, their long term intentions, imo, do not have hunting as a realistic option. Their long term goals are more about changing the entire NE Montana landscape into a serengeti of the US where they have free roaming bison and host photo safaris.

The effects on the local economies are huge, including the decrease of tax revenue in these counties.

Again people are referencing the Wilkes etc. Difference is these landowners are not working to rewrite the livestock/wildlife laws to get bison as wildlife to turn them loose on those of us working and traveling in this state.

Twelve or fifteen years ago APR's stated goal was to eventually, when they got control enough land, to turn it over to the federal gov't for a national park. I haven't seen anything about that for a while, but I'm pretty sure it is still on their mind, judging from attempts at other changes. If they realize that goal, no more hunting. As it is now, you cannot hunt any non-game on their property, and they try dissuade it on their leased BLM land, too. Last year they were trying to get BLM to waive land management requirements on the leases such as fence maintenance, rotating grazing pastures, etc; in fact they want to remove all interior fencing. As noted above, buffalo are considered livestock, not wildlife. They evidently think they are special enough they shouldn't have to abide by the rules other grazers need to follow. Being livestock they have to pay property taxes for agricultural land, but I've been told by a former county commissioner that if buffalo status changes to wildlife they would get tax breaks due to their non-profit status.

The buffalo fence has already changed the habits of elk re: accessing winter feed areas; they now stay longer on a ranch that adjoins another ranch that doesn't allow access. The first one has started charging access fees to try make up some of the grazing and hay loss. Too soon yet to tell how well that will work for them.

As far as ranchers blocking off access for hunting, so far it's pretty uncommon in this county; I can think of only two in the southern part, and one of them sometimes allows hunters to go after cow elk without charge when there get to be a bunch hanging around for too long. Of course, that is always subject to change; but for now many ranches are enrolled in block management, and others will allow access if you are polite and make arrangements timely.

One of the stated "benefits" is increased tourism in the area, but it's pretty rare for that to benefit local businesses; it's too far, time wise and primitive roads, from Malta and it seems most of their visitors do any shopping before they get here, bringing it with them from wherever they flew in, Billings or Great Falls.

Written by someone who actually knows what the hell they are talking about.^^^^^^^


Hopefully the uneducated are paying attention.

So the "private property rights" you speak of don't apply to the APR if they want to buy and hold land?

Doesn't the APR have that right too?

There are all sorts of rights that need protection, but their motive is disingenuous...

Here is an interesting quote form the hunting page on their website: "We invite the public to cross our private land to access your public lands."

One question: it is no secret that the APR people are a bunch of dirty hippies with a plot to ruin Montana. Why in the world would anyone up there sell to them? Who are the people selling the land? Are they a bunch of greedy traitorous bastages or is there some other explanation?

Money talks..

Interesting read. I’m not from Montana but it’s concerning that public access is getting very limited. And public access is everyone’s access not just people from Montana’s access whether I want to elk hunt,fish or take my dog for a walk. Problem I see here and everywhere else is, these things are discussed among outdoorsman and we sweat the BS details, bitch amongst ourselves and get nowhere. Where the fruitcakes have us beat is they actually can get along for a common cause and whine out loud in public until they get their way. Perhaps we need to study their playbook and use it against them.
Hunting survives today not because it is our right but because we piss away so much money doing it and it’s damn good business. We need to start directing that money a little more in our favor. Our numbers are dropping which means so is our revenue and that means soon we won’t matter at all. Only good news is that more women are becoming hunters and nobody spends money like women.

LOL, you've managed to both encourage and insult an entire segment of the population in the same sentence!! But I think you're wrong about women spending more money on hunting, if you peruse any of the many current threads on stuff like which rifle to build, which scope/binoculars to buy, or my favorite, which cartridge is best for elk, looks to me like most men here spend a lot more than the average female hunter. Most of the women hunters I know are one-rifle kind of gals.

But to your point, one of the reasons public land hunters as a group are so fragmented is, every single group I can think of that's been formed over the years to advocate for public access has its rabid detractors, and most hunters don't join or participate in them. RMEF is a bunch of no good elitists, because back during wolf reintroduction they mistakenly supported it for a short time. Never rmind that they switched their stance and never mind all the acreage they acquired and kept public including a place I hunted this yeat and last. And BHA is just a front for globalist commies, even thought you have people like BigFin on its board of directors. So what's left?

Ooops, correction, Big Fin is on the board of RMEF, not BHA.

True. That last part was an attempt,although likely poor one, at being light hearted about it. And, you are very correct about them being sensible about hunting gear. Perhaps that will help in the future with public perception of hunting as well. Less chest thumping and more thinking. What we as hunters need to do is try harder at getting along more and being less competitive between ourselves. This forum is a prime example. Just take a look at the debate over long range hunting. We need to get over the little chit and unify for the important things.
Also setting an example and policing ourselves in public. Nothing has hurt our hunting tradition more than these idiots “high fiving” each other after killing an animal on TV. I’m not sure who it was that thought that was a good idea. Even the simple things like the stupid kid in his jacked up diesel pickup blowing out black exhaust at every stop light being a jerk. What does the person behind them remember? The drop tine buck sticker and the “People Eating Tasty Animals “ sticker before the plume of soot. Not saying you’ll cure the morons but maybe if people check themselves before they have a moment of ignorant bliss it might make things a little easier for the next guy. No one took these fruit cake liberals seriously in the beginning but they started with the little things and it snowballed from there. We need to take a hard look at ourselves and how we present ourselves to the public in this day and age. We need to ask ourselves do people see us as a dumbass Elmer Fudd or do they take us seriously and see us as an asset or valuable resource? And, if you are a dumbass and you know who you are please stop feeding the stereotype.

People love managing other people's land almost as much as they love spending other peoples money. I've looked over APR's website and the part about their buying up grazing leases and then letting them lie fallow makes me seriously question their motives. I think it's bad for the economy, bad for the range and makes me question how much they're actually grounded in what's truly best versus their view of "we're here to save you stupid hicks from yourselves". I'm leaning towards their being more of the latter.

Pot, meet kettle.

Why should you worry about what APR is doing with their legally acquired property???

good thoughts on this post ,things probably won`t change, I do feel if large tracts of private land that surround public land there should be public access roads every mile to the public land with public parking on the public land.section line roads would work too ?

It's not the private land owners I worry about. They at least have a stake in managing their property to maximize some potential it has. I worry about corrupt politicians (all of them) who make laws based upon who puts money in their pocket, and how those laws generally impact public property in very negative ways. Like how the MT state legislature decided to decimate the GYB elk population, and has done a fine job of that, reducing it to about 1/8th of what it was just 20 years ago. Someone bribed those legislators. They aren't acting to benefit the elk-hunting population.

your very right and the shoulder season is part of elk decimation being done on private land,its shameful how these elk are being slaughtered from August 15 th - January and allowing up too 3 elk per person.plus RMEF does approve of this elk slaughter being done on private land.

Give it up already. Maybe you should try something like a spelling contest because you don't know what you are talking about. You are only allowed 2 elk in Montana. In the 60's 70's and 80's you weren't allowed more than a single elk in any part of Montana. Now you have the opportunity to take 2 due to the proliferation of elk in many of the regions that never had even a sustainable population decades ago.

Shoulder seasons are still a part of elk management and well studied by the FWP. If the elk were threatened in these areas where the shoulder seasons were allowed, they wouldn't be hunting them...

Good idea. Perhaps an easement agreement along a utilities right away. Something that would give folks accessibility.

The further away form agriculture the APR gets, the less wildlife is using the land because of mono culture. I have hunted on the APR lands 3 times about 2-3 yrs apart each time. Every time I hunted there I saw more game on land that was still being farmed or not long after being farmed. The last time there, I saw little to no game where I had hunted successfully the first years, because no farming for about 6 years . Just the APR prairie grass and sage brush was all that grew. I killed a speed goat on the place they had just bought that year in a Wheat stubble field. I know people around there whose families homesteaded that country. There was always good hunting access and lots of game. The more the APR buys the less game there is and their buffalo fences also disrupt the game that is there. And no the APR should not get special treatment from the BLM for their grazing leases to run buffalo. They should follow the same rules as the cattle ranchers have to. People that have not ever been in this area on the ground, should not try to be experts on the situation

Some years ago they had a meeting in Lewistown. A lady who attended said the presenter from APR said the APR doesn't want to get rid of people from the land-- for now. Since then they have been playing up to the hunter trying to get them on there side. Rather successfully too. I personally don't trust the APR. There vision (mostly paid for by overseas interest from what I have read) remove agriculture from the seen. While I have my problems with landowners who block access for hunting it is there right. This will also devastate the small communities in north central and north eastern MT,. The APR says eco tourism will be a boon to these communities. Well I don't see people going there much in the winter and how much hunting will they allow when the car tours they are talking about happen and a hunter is gutting a deer/elk/antelope on the route. Montanans and most on here will congratulate them, but a city person or European will not think highly of it. How long will they allow hunting after that or after they get what they want.

The APR wants the BLM to grant them special privileges on grazing leases on public ground to take out fencing so the bison can roam freely and stay on the land permanently. Things not granted to other ranchers. The thing is if the ranchers hadn't taken care of the land in the first place, private and otherwise, I would bet the APR wouldn't want it.

I talked to a guy north of the river this year who got an elk. He had to walk a ways out of his way to get around the bison to get back to his vehicle. He commented he would hate to run into them in the dark. Now every hunter has to deal with wild animals when walking in or out of an area in the dark. Grizzlies are becoming more prevalent for example. They are finally confirmed in the Little Belt Mtns.

I'll say again I don't trust the APR.

>>hi sharpnel: is it true you were convicted in Montana for a crime ? maybe someone can post what happened ?

Remember what I said about a spelling contest? Well you better forget that too, it is shrapnel, not sharpnel. You don’t even have the IQ of a bucket of chum...

shrapnel, why do you bother with these morons.???. They don't have guts enough to list where they live, or show their face.. I enjoy your stuff, but arguing with these people is not worth your time.. Everyone out of our states has the answer to what we should do, and they can't even manage their own state...

Great idea! I did go rabbit hunting today and it was on private land and didn't see a thing but cows...

Did you slay any bunnies????