Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game For the Montana folks..

I don't give a "flying fuuck" what your intentions are with the land you own, nor should you care about anyone else's intentions on land they own.

You either value/respect private property rights or you don't...period.

I'm not talking about private property.

I also don't care who leases BLM, FS, or State as long as they pay their required fees...you shouldn't either.

Would you care if we wanted to change the rules on our lease to benefit our long term goal(s)?


Maybe you aren't aware.



The end game is free range buff declassified from the current livestock status to wildlife.

As in free range......

As in sorry neighbors, my buff are no longer my livestock so I don't have to keep them in my pasture.


Wildlife free to go where ever they want.



IMO that is pretty disrespectful to your neighbors. Cows are one thing to fence out, buff I hear require a little more FENCE.


Not to mention the negative economic impact to the area where some of us actually live and work.

Lots of "ifs" there Sam.

I doubt if bison are going to be reclassified as wildlife in Montana, in particular with the current make up of the State Legislature.

As far as fencing goes. If I live in Montana or Wyoming and I don't want your livestock grazing my land and chitting on my porch, I have to fence them out. That sword cuts both ways, but seems you don't like it when on the receiving end of fencing out others livestock.

I don't have a problem with Turner having bison, I don't have a problem with APR having bison either. Livestock is livestock and the definition applies the same to cattle as bison.

No, I wouldn't care about you changing your lease as long as it was approved by the Agency/owner you were leasing from.

At least you're being honest.
(about where you stand)


Absolutely not surprising.



But I do think you are being naive in regards to APR's long term objectives regarding 'sport' hunting.



Time will tell.

i think there is some bison north of hwy 2, that run amuck from time to time,,,, they cant tell where there supposed to be without a fence,,,

spent few thousand dollars fencing 100 acres few years ago because neighbors dont feel like spending money to keep cows home and my alfalfa is for the deer,,,, livestock enforcement officer made a believer out of me it was "my" problem,,,,

and its a felony to shoot those wondering cows damaging my property,,,, i understand the fencing requirements for cattle vs bison, been on both sides of that fence,,,,,,, ag industry has too much "pull" to let bison status be changed i am thinking,,,, so not much worry of free range bison in our lifetimes(if your over 30) , ha,,,,

how about 8000 head of elk on APR, whose gonna complain about that,,, (just a number for instance), elk are allready managed based on landowner wants/needs vs actual carrying capacity,

i have spent some time trying to classify, identify, the actual negative economic impact, vs not much impact vs positive impact, i am not smart enough to get there though, dont have a PHD,

i see, hear read the hate, blame discontent in the area at the bars, grocery stores, race track ect,,,, but i have seen heard some postive vibes about what is being done on their stuff right now,,,

i wish i could find a pic of the signs couple years ago in the area, was pretty much aimed sportsmen not helping to keep APR out of the area, so the landowners arent going to help you sportsmen out, ACCESS, was the direction locals were headed,,,,,

dont know the right answer but i want my private property rights respected as much as i want apr and sams respected, whether you have cows, sheep , llamas, or a whiskey still

Sam, I also respect and understand your position and concerns, they are legitimate and have merit.

I agree, time will tell and hopefully things work out for the best.

if they landlock a bunch of blm we can have a new place to fly into,,,,

I dont care about them buying land, I dont care about them leasing public land. I do care about them acting like hunters are a vital part of their management plan while talking to hunters (to garner support and $$$ in donations) and not even mentioning hunting while pitching it to silicon valley types (while also begging for money).

It seems disingenuous at best, and shady at worst.

Prediction, once they complete their grand plan, the only thing you'll be doing on apr land is photo safaris, and glamping.

From the APR web on "Hunting"

I suppose you're OK with the Wilkes and Koch Brothers buying up large Ranches, at least their not You know your not going to get to hunt those places and up front that's GOOD?

APR web on Hunting

Again, look at who is behind this and what they have done in the world. Ignore what they are writing.

Sam is right, their long term intentions, imo, do not have hunting as a realistic option. Their long term goals are more about changing the entire NE Montana landscape into a serengeti of the US where they have free roaming bison and host photo safaris.

The effects on the local economies are huge, including the decrease of tax revenue in these counties.

Again people are referencing the Wilkes etc. Difference is these landowners are not working to rewrite the livestock/wildlife laws to get bison as wildlife to turn them loose on those of us working and traveling in this state.

Twelve or fifteen years ago APR's stated goal was to eventually, when they got control enough land, to turn it over to the federal gov't for a national park. I haven't seen anything about that for a while, but I'm pretty sure it is still on their mind, judging from attempts at other changes. If they realize that goal, no more hunting. As it is now, you cannot hunt any non-game on their property, and they try dissuade it on their leased BLM land, too. Last year they were trying to get BLM to waive land management requirements on the leases such as fence maintenance, rotating grazing pastures, etc; in fact they want to remove all interior fencing. As noted above, buffalo are considered livestock, not wildlife. They evidently think they are special enough they shouldn't have to abide by the rules other grazers need to follow. Being livestock they have to pay property taxes for agricultural land, but I've been told by a former county commissioner that if buffalo status changes to wildlife they would get tax breaks due to their non-profit status.

The buffalo fence has already changed the habits of elk re: accessing winter feed areas; they now stay longer on a ranch that adjoins another ranch that doesn't allow access. The first one has started charging access fees to try make up some of the grazing and hay loss. Too soon yet to tell how well that will work for them.

As far as ranchers blocking off access for hunting, so far it's pretty uncommon in this county; I can think of only two in the southern part, and one of them sometimes allows hunters to go after cow elk without charge when there get to be a bunch hanging around for too long. Of course, that is always subject to change; but for now many ranches are enrolled in block management, and others will allow access if you are polite and make arrangements timely.

One of the stated "benefits" is increased tourism in the area, but it's pretty rare for that to benefit local businesses; it's too far, time wise and primitive roads, from Malta and it seems most of their visitors do any shopping before they get here, bringing it with them from wherever they flew in, Billings or Great Falls.

Written by someone who actually knows what the hell they are talking about.^^^^^^^


Hopefully the uneducated are paying attention.

So the "private property rights" you speak of don't apply to the APR if they want to buy and hold land?

Doesn't the APR have that right too?

There are all sorts of rights that need protection, but their motive is disingenuous...

Here is an interesting quote form the hunting page on their website: "We invite the public to cross our private land to access your public lands."

One question: it is no secret that the APR people are a bunch of dirty hippies with a plot to ruin Montana. Why in the world would anyone up there sell to them? Who are the people selling the land? Are they a bunch of greedy traitorous bastages or is there some other explanation?

Money talks..

Interesting read. I’m not from Montana but it’s concerning that public access is getting very limited. And public access is everyone’s access not just people from Montana’s access whether I want to elk hunt,fish or take my dog for a walk. Problem I see here and everywhere else is, these things are discussed among outdoorsman and we sweat the BS details, bitch amongst ourselves and get nowhere. Where the fruitcakes have us beat is they actually can get along for a common cause and whine out loud in public until they get their way. Perhaps we need to study their playbook and use it against them.
Hunting survives today not because it is our right but because we piss away so much money doing it and it’s damn good business. We need to start directing that money a little more in our favor. Our numbers are dropping which means so is our revenue and that means soon we won’t matter at all. Only good news is that more women are becoming hunters and nobody spends money like women.

LOL, you've managed to both encourage and insult an entire segment of the population in the same sentence!! But I think you're wrong about women spending more money on hunting, if you peruse any of the many current threads on stuff like which rifle to build, which scope/binoculars to buy, or my favorite, which cartridge is best for elk, looks to me like most men here spend a lot more than the average female hunter. Most of the women hunters I know are one-rifle kind of gals.

But to your point, one of the reasons public land hunters as a group are so fragmented is, every single group I can think of that's been formed over the years to advocate for public access has its rabid detractors, and most hunters don't join or participate in them. RMEF is a bunch of no good elitists, because back during wolf reintroduction they mistakenly supported it for a short time. Never rmind that they switched their stance and never mind all the acreage they acquired and kept public including a place I hunted this yeat and last. And BHA is just a front for globalist commies, even thought you have people like BigFin on its board of directors. So what's left?

Ooops, correction, Big Fin is on the board of RMEF, not BHA.