I know the guys went, but I have not heard anything?
Any updates?

Well, seeing as you're asking, here's a thumb-nail sketch.

It was basically a disaster. We killed our elephants, but a last minute location change that nobody was informed of, to a camp that didn't even know we were coming, only to find out there were no non-trophy elephant quota to be had anyway, managed to filter out any fun that there was in the experience. Getting booted out of that camp in the middle of the night added to the pleasure, but continueing to hunt the same goat, donkey and snare infested area ensured that our days were consistantly glum.
On day 10 (yes day ten)of my ten day hunt a permit was procured to shoot elephant in Zambezi National Park.Another member of the group got his on his eighth day. That fleeting moment of elephant hunting was great, but not enough to save the trip. Honestly, how bad does a trip have to be when 3 hunters can kill elephants and still wish they had stayed home? Somehow we managed to achieve it.

What a bummer, did you all hunt buffalo or was that a wash as well?

DISASTER

Model70Guy is being polite.I got there 2 days befor the other 2 guys only to find that we were not going to the promised MULTIPLE buff area but to some [bleep] whole that had no buff on it and no quota for non trophy elephant.But some guy named Charles was suppose to show up and get things straightened out.Well when I left that area after 4 days still no sign of Charles or the non trophy elephant quota.On the first day in camp when I came in for lunch I was confronted by the fellow running the camp asking me what the [bleep] I was doing there, he then asked if I was hunting donkey or goat because there was nothing else on Quota on that property.I was later offered a PAC elephant hunt to be hunted at night with spotlight.I had booked a nontrophy elephant hunt so I could experience the tracking and HUNTING of an elephant,not a night spotlight hunt which I could have booked WAY cheaper then I was paying.
I moved on the fourth day after the 3 truck traffic jam trying to hunt the same small area as the other 2 guys.
I was jacked to go to another place but that was short lived when we couldn't get on one of the places where there was actually buffalo because there was a problem with money being owed to the property owner by the Operator which never did get resolved while I was there.
I felt pretty stupid booking a package hunt where I paid for my animals up front with no refund if the animals were not shot.
Both the booking agent and Operator were guarantied
their money regarless if I got anything or not.This was my own STUPIDITY so PLEASE learn from me and NEVER book a package hunt it doesn't give the operator much insentive to get you your animals.I to ended up shooting my elephant and a buff but that is another story.
But as Model70Guy said even with the animals taken the hunt FOR ME was a complete CLUSTER[bleep].
I never did see a buff bull on the properties that the Operator had for me to hunt.Most of the properties were villages where most of the game had been snared and killed off,far from the great buff and elephant places that we had been promised .Just read the 24 hrs campsite hunt thread that was selling this hunt.
I guess BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!!

The third member of our party killed the only mature bull that any of us saw in the hunting areas we had. I was into buffalo a few times, without a shot at a suitable bull. Most days we couldn't find so much as a track to follow. Evening recaps of our days were sometimes won by the guy who had seen an impala or baboon. Better than an endless string of bell wearing goats I guess.
I was offered a chance to up-grade my hunt to trophy elephant, which there was quota for. Now, attempting to fix their problems with liberal applications of MY money wasn't way up on my list of things to, but it was a way of pretending to hunt elephants. If I'd actually seen a big bull I would have shot it and ponyed up the dollars but unluckily didn't have to make that choice. I did have a thrilling stalk on 4 bulls that proved too small to legally shoot as a trophy. Better than nothing again, but very frustrating as these were exactly the animals that we had booked for.These were the only elephants I saw in the first 9 days.

Very discouraging news....I feel terrible for you guys. Seems like most everything was misrepresented

This was the deal worked out by Safariman, correct?

that's a bummer!


?? sounds "out of character" based on previous reviews ??

Very sorry. This is extremely discouraging and depressing. I've been saving for a safari and this is exactly the kind of crap that will keep me from going.

Well I was the number three Hunter on this rip off we did not get the hunt we paid for and were promised. As soon as I realized that we were going to be hunting in the Matetsi Communal areas I knew we had been duped.I shot the only Buff that I saw in the hunting area except for a young Bull we found in a snare which I dispatched. As I had read eleswhere this area is poached out. I would not have left home if mention of this area had been made as a possible hunt location.. On day 4 the owner Tim showed up and took my trackers replaceing them with a Skinner and a guy who had been intro duced to me as the truck watcher when we were in the bush.What do you do when your 15,000 miles from home I tried to make the best of it.A expensive lesson! I doubt if I,ll ever see the stuff I did shoot.

Wow! Who was the hunt with? If i get the job I am in the process of getting (United States Border Patrol) I am planning on a 2010 trip with some friends.

If this hunt was organised by who I think it was, it's unusual in that although I don't know much about him, I always thought the guy was of good repute and would be suprised if he was to blame for anything.

How about the guys who went on the hunt, write a proper hunt report detailing all the good and bad etc (for example how they came to be kicked out of camp in the middle of the night and did they have a contract etc) so that the agent has a proper chance to address the entire issue properly. He's contributed a lot to this forum over the years and surely he's at least owed that....

Alternatively, keep it off the public forum entirely and deal with it completely in private which might actually be a far better option.

Trial by internet is always a dangerous thing because most of the time only one half of the story is ever heard and all they usually achieve is to disrupt the forum where the trial takes place and no-one comes out a winner. - Incidentally, it also often lays at least some of the contributors and indeed also the forum owners open to the risk of prosecution for libel. Internet libel laws are extremely strict and often ignored.

But hey, it could have been worse. It was reported on another forum by a well respected and highly reputable Zim resident that during the election period one Brit hunter spent 5 days in a Zim jail without food or water because (as I understand it) his paperwork wasn't in order!

This is disturbing...I'd like to hear what Mark has to say on the issue. powdr

We need to hear both sides of the story. Was there anything discussed concerning a refund ?

Good luck on the refund. (not grinning)

What a shame to hear about hunts like that. I've had trouble on hunts before also and it sucks.

It's been awhile since the original hunt was set up. How about naming the booking agent/operator who set up the hunt and telling us his position and if he did anything to make amends for a hunt obviously gone wrong. I'm sorry to hear about your bad hunt, but please let us know who is at fault so nobody else gets taken.

I'm sure we would also like to hear the agent/operator side of the story.

I don't pretend to speak for Mark (Safariman)but I will say that he was brought up to speed as soon as I got home. There is nothing posted here that he will deny. I also know that at the current time he has suspended booking with African Dream Safaris. He's on holidays until Aug 21. Between knowing that he wasn't available and also knowing that the other 2 hunters were out chasing sheep and caribou, I felt no immediate need to get the report up, at least until the question was asked. As it is at least 2 of us are bouncing off satellites from the bush and tundra to post.

As for refunds, there are some things that money can't fix.Some things can't be fixed at all. My report has been filed with ZPHGA, for whatever good that may do.

Mikey,
I'm sorry your tripped sucked so bad. I can't imagine how absolutely frustrating it must be to be on a dream trip and have it go so wrong. My heart goes out to you guys.

Wow. Glad I didn't cancel my wedding to go on this one!

Give it a few years!

On a serious note, sorry you guys had a bad experience.


Travis

Hunts that go bad SUCK. I had one recently.

Everybody loses, I suspect, except the guys still in Africa.

I'll bet Mark wishes he could wring some necks, and I bet the hunters do too.

For the record, except for Mark arranging it for guys on this site, thus the title, 24hourcampfire had nothing to do with arranging this hunt. We're not in the outfitting business.

Best of luck to all who deserve it, and a scourge on those who may have double-dealt. It seems clear it will all come out in the wash, for better or for worse.

Glad to see, at least, that all made it home safe to hunt another day. Getting kicked out of a camp in the middle of the night sounds like something that could have gone real bad, real quick!

Packing up at 10 O'clock (Dark 6 to 6) wasn't the greatest feeling, but by them I was past mad and working on the more advanced stages of depression and disappointment. That unplanned move was about past disputed bills of course.

Money issues between landowner and outfitter, as well as between "partners," was the issue on mine too, it turned out.

Smart move getting philosophical. Mad gets me in trouble more often than not. I've been known to blow a fuse now and again. Doing so on another continent or in any situation where somebody else is writing the rules is just asking for trouble.

Deep in the heart of Mexico ain't the place to insist on your say. Neither is Zim at 10:00 pm!

Glad you got outta there!

If it makes you feel better, Air Canada lost my (and my wife's) baggage on our honeymoon. A week with one pair of undies and one t-shirt (washing them in the sink - best wife EVER!) can ruin a vacation too.

Sometimes the disasters are the most fun to talk about when you get down the road a few years.

I feel really bad for you guys on this hunt. I hunted with African Dream Safaris last year, and I would never hunt with them again. My dad and I hunted Leopard for 12 days and never saw a track. I did take a nice Sable, but I was in the wrong camp and I shot it on the way to zero in the rifles. Our trip was so messed up they offered us 2 or 3 days of free hunting if we came back. To make matters worse, my buffalo I shot had red mold on it when it arrived in the US. Good thing I have a good taxidermist. I think the best thing do, is to make sure no one evers hunts with African Dream Safaris again. The owner is Tim Schultz(sp). Good luck,

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences as well. Like MotorCity, I too hunted with African Dream Safaris last year and had a miserable, bad experience hunting there. Went for buff and couldn't find any decent bulls, problems with property owners/disputes, too many hunters in the same location, etc. We made do, like you have to when you're over there, but I would never hunt with or recommend anyone hunt with them. I felt like the hunt had been misrepresented to me at the time and let Mark know about it, but felt the open internet forums were not the place to handle this dispute. From all the other glowing reports here, I thought perhaps this was a one time experience and I was just the unlucky guy who got left holding the bag. I'm sorry you guys got caught up in this, though. No hunt in Africa is "cheap" and to have a miserable time while there is an experience I will never forget or wish to relive. It will be interesting to see what Mark has to say about this.
Test

I presume somebody have had the courtesy to inform the owners of African Dream Safari about this case. It would be only fair, and in everybody�s interest, to hear the story from both sides.

Nan,
Suit yourself. [email protected] Personally I've already tried talking to Schlutz, and now prefer to tell the story to the rest of the world, and ZPHGA. Mark will, I'm sure, give his own view when he can.

Nan,
I was in Africa 2 weeks and saw Tim a total of 30 minutes. I talked to his wife on several occasions and Mark(Safariman)called Tim several times when I was there last year. That is why they offered me free days to come back. Unfortunately, Tim has very bad leases(if he leases) and other wise hunts property that has very little game. In my first 5 days of hunting we saw less then 10 Impala while hunting for Leopard. We could not find any bait to shoot. My PH told me he has never hunted property with so little game. He was shocked how skitish the game where. I said very little on the internet at the time, because I was affraid I would not get my game out of ZIM. I did tell anybody who PM me or called me about TIM.

Same here. I saw Tim Schultz twice while in Zim, each for about 15 minutes. His wife Bianca, who is co-owner and handles all the finances, got an ear full from me at the end of the hunt. We were hunting in an area where there was no cell service and no one had a satellite phone, so calls to Mark, Tim, or Bianca were not made and we did the best we could with what we had. After I had my say with Bianca, she made it seem as though Mark knew all of this and should have informed me prior to getting over to Africa. Whether this was the truth or not, I have no way of knowing. I will say that after talking with Bianca, my PH (who was present and heard everything I had to say) told me that he was very pleased that I spoke up and let her know about all the problems since they (Tim and Bianca) would not listen to him when he commented about conditions after previous hunts and thought he was just spinning yarns. I believe that African Dream Safaris knows full well this is the game that they are playing, but are able to find enough gullable hunters to not worry about it. It's also my opinion that one of the games (scams) they play is what others have mentioned here, i.e. get you over there and then try to get you to upgrade your hunt to get into more favorable hunting locations or to hunt the game they do have available rather than the game you intended or wanted to hunt. Those that are unwilling or unable to fork over the extra cash get stuck on the farms with no game. Just my humble opinion. By the way, I exchanged PM's with MotorCity just a week before I left for Africa and just after he had gotten back and he did inform me of the conditions he had encountered while there. At that point, it was really too late to do much about it and since it was my first trip to Africa I was overly optimistic and hoping I would have a different experience. Too bad I didn't listen and had to find out for myself.
Test

A most unfortunate story here folks. Right or wrong, perception is what counts or at least it's 90% of the discussion. All I can say for now is that I'm sorry this happened to you folks. Like all of you, I really can't afford to have a bad safari, so I tend to pay more, go less often and so far it's paid off for me. Like my dad once said, "it only costs twice as much to go first class." Again I feel bad for all concerned and look forward to the explanation. As a sidebar, those of you who hunted last year, can you repost photos of the game taken? thanks, jorge

Guys, My heart goes out to you. A bad hunt anywhere is a bad memory for life. I have had a couple, both for elk in Colorado. I agree with jorge, to have one in Africa would be an absolute disaster for me--I simply can't afford it.

I was fortunate that I met Marius Van Deventer of Africa Bushveld Safaris at the Harrisburg, Pa. hunting show two years ago, and booked a PG hunt with him on the Eastern Cape of RSA for my first trip in 2007. It was outstanding in every aspect, and reasonable in price. I took seven great animals, including two kudu and both black and a blue wildebeast and a gemsbok. I went again with a friend in 2008, and we had the same great hunt. Marius has been scruplousy honest and above board and has delivered 100% on everything he has represented. He is not the middleman. You will hunt with him or one of two other PHs that have worked together for years. They have a great facility and staff, and plenty of game.

If you are contemplating a PG safari, you really should check these folks out. I am going for Cape Buffalo in 2010, and it will be with Africa Bushveld Safaris. They deliver.

Geez, what can I say, I'm bummed for you guys. Sorry you all had such a rough go of it and got the short end of the stick. Hope refunds and ammends are forthcoming.

Contary to Shakiri's comments regarding keeping this stuff private, seems that if others with poor prior experiences with African Dream Safaris had publicly posted their stories and regrets, this would have been prevented. (Not that I'm pointing fingers at those who didn't, just that info on the good or bad is useful and public disclosure isn't all bad.)

Looking forward to reading Mark's response and comments.

JPK

I like sharpsguy have felt the sting of an elk hunt gone bad. This did help me understand what to look for and ask in the future.
I am sorry for the loss of a good experience in Africa that each failed to have. It is such a unique place and it is so hard to get back there. I treat each trip like it is my last trip (do we really know if we can go back?).
As far as keeping this offline in discussion, this situation is unique in that we were all solicited on this opportunity. So yes it needs to be discused. It has been kept civil and professional and that is all that can be asked.
We can each make up our minds how we feel on this subject.
One lesson to be learned is to check out all referances,research expections, and try and not get caught up in the emotion of the moment.
In this case I believe each hunter placed trust in a hunt and experience of Africa that was professionally prepared for them and enacted by a safari company in Zimbabwe.
This did not happen.

JPK

My point was to avoid the trial by internet thing (esp) whilst one party is away and unable to respond....... it could well be, and my guess is that none of it was his fault at all and the blame lies elsewhere.

The problem with doing it in public is that the world and his dog, many of whom don't know which way is up all get involved and raise temperatures needlessly with comments and opinions that have no bearing on anything. - Better, fairer and safer to wait till Mark is back and then sort it out in private and then the members involved can post the outcome if they so wish.

Anyway, just a personal opinion!

JPK,

On one hand, I agree that it would be nice if we could openly discuss bad hunts or problems so that everyone was aware of what went on. On the other hand, Shakari is correct in the fact that whenever these disagreements are brought forward, the poster inevitably gets raked over the coals for what they did, didn't do, or should have done, irrespective of what the outfitter did. In addition, all of the folks that have had previously successful hunts with the particular outfit mentioned come riding to the defense, whether or not they know any details. So...it usually is not in a person's best interest to share all of the gory details on these sites. I know you've seen this scenario play out on this and other sites previously.

In my own personal situation, when I got back to the US, I was so upset and mad that I was ready to come on here and blast away. However, Mark and his outfit, had (have) a good reputation and several very satisfied clients who frequent this board. I could not say definitively that I was not an exception to the many apparently satisfied clients who had previously hunted with them. Therefore, I chose to keep this a private matter. Unfortunately, none of my phone calls or letters to Mark were ever acknowledged by him, so I still do not have any additional information that would justify how my hunt was handled. I was not asking for a refund or any other compensation for a hunt gone bad, so the fact that there was no acknowledgement whatsoever of my hunt leads me to believe that money in hand is the only motivation.

Now that it has been a year since that hunt, enough time has gone by that I no longer harbor ill will towards anyone involved and hopefully can look at thing objectively. That is the only reason I feel I can come forward at this time, if for no other reason than to corroborate what others have said about hunting with African Dream Safaris.

As others and myself have said, I would like to hear from the other side to see if there is some way to justify carrying out a hunt like has been reported. It seems doubtful to me, but I haven't convicted anyone yet.

Test

Gents, any hope of posting some of last year's pictures from said hunt? I'd be interested to see the quality of animals taken, particularly the buffaloes. jorge

Here is a link with some pics.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1608684/page/0/fpart/1

Jorge,
As you know through PM's, I did not shoot a buffalo except for a young soft bossed bull who had been wounded by someone else and that the game scout asked me to shoot so as not to cause anyone any trouble down the road. Fortunately for me, my PH confirmed with him before I shot that this would not count as my trophy and that no trophy fee would be due. I have little doubt that if we had not asked this ahead of time that he would have tried to make us pay for it. I did shoot a decent impala and a steenbok, but spent most of my time driving from one place to the other looking for properties we could hunt. Here are the pictures. (I'm not sure why the image size on the impala pic is different?)









I will add that the camp/property where we were based did have buffalo, but the property was very small. The buff would come onto the property at night to water and then would head back across the boundary where we could not pursue them. We did chase several small herds around the property quite a bit, but never were able to see a hard bossed bull. I had let my PH know up front that I would not shoot anything but a hard bossed bull. I was not looking for a trophy book animal, but did want to be sure to shoot only a mature bull. Fortunately for me, my PH understood this and agreed with this philosophy. He and I both were very frustrated by the lack of mature bulls and were quite PO'd over the fact that the game scout/property manager was constantly urging us to just shoot any buffalo just so he could collect the trophy fee. We also found out during this hunt that this same property manager was letting other hunters from other safari companies onto the same property while we were out of camp to hunt for buffalo. We found this out only after discovering other hunters tracks, finding their truck, and then confronting the manager. I believe my PH would have shot the guy if he thought he wouldn't go to jail since we were really working our asses off to get a buff and then this guy was sabotaging us. There is much more of this sort of thing that I could relay, but this just gives a glimpse.
Test

Shakiri,

No doubt that reporting results of a hunt, good or bad, are best done after the fact - which in this and other cases might include a workout plan for a hunt gone wrong, or in the case of even a great hunt some trouble with paperwork or whatever at the end...

Here, the whole topic came up sideways, and not as an attack. And I think that, at least so far, no internet trail situation is causing undue emotions or whatever to take hold. In fact one of the guys who had the misreable experience has mentioned that he is awaiting Safarimans's return from vacation. Its pretty clear though that this hunt was FUBAR from the outset and ammends need to be made.

So far as libel and other issues you raise in your earlier post, truth is an affirmative and absolute defense to libel and no one should ever hesitate to post a truthful hunt report, even the worst. Reports, truthful reports, on poor hunts and disasters should be made regularly for all's benefit, including the booking agent or outfitter who avoids them or makes things as right as possible after the fact.

We do all need to keep in mind that hunting is hunting and not livestock buying, so not all hunts will be resounding successes from the trophy point of view, but that is very different from the reports given in this matter.

For an example of a hunt report where the results of the hunt from the perspective of the trophies taken are disapointing, and an issue or two during the hunt needed to be dealt with, but the hunt was still first rate and the outfitter, PH, etc, weren't improperly or without warrant skewered, take a look at my recent report from my very difficult and not all together successful report on my May elephant hunt. (EDIT: Which report went largely unnoticed here.)

JPK

I don't know anyone involved in this situation but it confirms a valuable lesson: I cannot "afford" a "bargain" hunt.

I've had excellent luck with the outfitted trips that I've been on and for that reason I use the same booking agent for everything. He's probably not the cheapest but he has a stable of repeat customers that he knows better than to let down.

As someone who is currently saving for my next African hunt (I've only been home from my last one a month) I truly feel bad that you guys didn't have the hunt that you expected.

Shakari,
I think when you hear the other side, it will be the same.
Test and myself hunted at 2 separate times with different PH's and both had the same problems. Then you have 3 separate people here all post the same problems. I think I see a trend.
Mark(safariman) was in camp with me the first few days in 2007. He had several heated discussions on the phone with Tim the owner and his crew. Mark, did his best and truly had our best interest in mind when trying to fix the problems. I would share a camp with Mark in a second. But, never with Tim Schultz or his company.
He will tell you we were in the wrong camp, as a matter of fact the camp had not been used in several years. No windows on the buildings, we ran out of fuel, no animals, short 1 PH, etc.
Again, I was offered 2 -3 days free hunting if I would come back.
I am only here to make sure no one else has a similar experience with African (Nightmare) Safaris.

Guys those looked like some nice trophies except the aformentioned "green buffalo".Anyhow I hope things get worked out and some recompense is in order. jorge

I agree with jorge if it looks to good you had better take a close look. Going first class does cost more but in the end you get what you have paid your money for. All safari's I have looked at don't ask for fee's up front but only if you are successful. I will be looking for comments by Mark and the safari operator on there point of view.

How can anyone be held accountable without consequences? I would be very disapointed if someone held out a negative opinion on a hunt. I am not an outfitter only a hunter, but I am very interested in hearing a hunters perspective. You never know someone's true character until things go really bad! I have been in business for 17 years and the customer is always right and their account of the incident is the only one that matters. I do however agree that there is two sides to every story and I am interested in hearing the other side. This case just seems to be very well documented and everyone involved seems to be very level headed. I only wish the negatives could have come to light sooner so that someones dream (safari) could have been saved.

Jorge,
Trophies taken on past hunts in a different area have little bearing on the treatment we were shown on this one. We booked a tented elephant/buffalo safari in the Omay, or lodge style in the Sengwe Buffalo Research area. We received a truck ride in a goat ranch in Matetsi, with no notice, no reason I can accept, no compensation and no permits for the primary quarry for most of the hunt. Amazingly, Schultz sees nothing wrong with that.
We may have felt like having a torch and pitchfork parade, but it wouldn't have done any good. I don't think this thread will help me either, but I'll participate as a warning to others.

FWIW,

Omay has some buff, but not a ton in my limited experience there. Too many people I think. Omay has its share and then some of problem elephants, again in my limited experience. I killed two PAC bulls in Omay on one hunt there.

Don't know much about Sengwe, except that I understand that it is small in size.

JPK

Guys

My point was that these trial by internet can so often get hysterical, esp when one party is absent from the debate although I have to say that hasn't happened here and I congratulate the forum for it's restraint!

One good point has been raised here in that you don't get what you don't pay for and it's a sad fact that many hunters don't appreciate that fact when they book a hunt. The reality is that African safaris are obscenely expensive but if you want quality you have to pay for it.

An example of this is I can offer a wide variety of hunt locations in Tanzania. All are pretty good but some only ever take half the quota and pay the Govt for all the quota..... which means that trophy fees for example on those animals taken are efectively doubled........ BUT the Leopards are like Lionesses, the Lions like something out of an old MGM movie and the Elephants look like something out of the old King Soloman's Mines movie....... they're a helluva price though!!

Mod70: Totally concur, I was just trying to remember the pictures as I distinctly remember a "green" buffalo, but Test explained his and I maybe confused it with a picture of a pretty crappy buffalo (plus another green one) that I think were shot by someone else. If a PH purposely allows a "green buff to be taken, I wouldn't shoot it and he should have his license pulled. Unless it's a wounded or sick one of course as was the case in Test's example.

I totally agree with you that your experience was a very bad one and needs to be addressed. In a customer service business like the Safari Industry, customer service & recommendations are the central key to success. jorge

What's really unfortunate about this is that there were apparantly very poor hunt reports to the outfitter a year ago about African Dream Safaris but bookings continued. I really feel bad for you guys. I've only been shafted on one hunt for a few grand which has to be absolute chicken scratch in comparison but I surely never forgot the experience.

Shakari,
The prices that we paid weren't far from average for Zimbabwe hunts, the deal sweeteners were such things as a second buffalo.
Tanzania is a place I want to hunt someday, perhaps sooner than later. If you were to sell me a hunt for MGM lions and King Soloman style elephants, only to announce after arrival that there was no quota available for either, I'd feel the same way as I do now.Would you do it? I didn't think so.

The "average" for a quality Buffalo Hunt in Zimbabwe at last year's rate should hover around 900/950 per day plus the trophy fee that I think was 2500 last year (it's 2750 now). That should be for no less than ten days in my view. Also, the areas offered should be thoroughly researched, exclusivity (or not) of the hunting camp and of course ALWAYS references. ALWAYS. And all tht I said on my previous post of course. Game quality...jorge

Well,


As Model 70 guy and others knew I have been away from the 'net for a couple of weeks. I want to start out by thanking Model 70 guy and others for delaying posting for a bit while I started to try to sort out what went wrong here. Later today or perhaps in a day or two I will have more info but for now I have stopped advertising here and elsewhere with respects to hunts in Africa. It is a possibility that I will not re-start again for some time, if at all, as it is my practice to only book hunts with operators whom I at least THINK that I know pretty well and with whom I have personally hunted.
Tim Schultz was an excellent and very highly regarded PH for a hunting operation that I used to book for but who came to provide poor service for my hunters and with whom I have not had much contact in a long time other than hello at SCI. A long story there that may come to light on another day..... For now, it seems to me that Tim Schultz MAY have bitten off a bit too much with starting his own safari company lately but I have to reserve judgement until I can get more input from him and others in Zim which I am seeking.

I have to agree that it was a poor practice to switch hunting areas on everyone at the last minute and not tell me or anyone else of the change in plans. I held on to everyone's deposits on this hunt until close to the time for the hunts to begin as a safety net in case things got too sticky in Zim and was assured as late as the end of May when the deposits were finally sent over that Sengwa ll in the Limpopo region was in fact the hunt destination. I am still hoping to hear why this was changed. Also, to not have the quota available for the animals hunted until late in the hunt is quite unnacceptable. I have asked Tim for an explanation of this and a partial refund of Mikes and other hunters monies paid and am still talking with him regarding these matters albiet quite slowly as he is in the field hunting a lot at the moment and communications there have always been hit or miss with about anybody. One of the challenges we face. Added to that my own trip abroad that I just returned from a few hours ago and I can only say that I am still working on this problem but quite agree that the trip went quite badly and I am truly sorry for the events that took place out of my control. I will be doing a cut and paste of the comments from the 24hrcf hunters here and putting them into an e-mail to Tim in a bit. For what it is worth, I do not think Tim intended to hurt anyone on this trip, just planned it poorly and failed to inform me and the other hunters of changes coming or anticipated. Motor City, Model 70 Guy and others were there last year when Tim and Bianca waxed glowingly about these great new areas that were to be hunted this year and I really anticipated wonderful reports of many animals taken and great fun when Mike and the others returned. As all monies were sent long ago and or given there in Zim at the time of the hunt I can do little else besides continue to try to get explanations and hopefully money from Tim and stop operations as to new hunters until, and if, this is all given to my satisfaction.

Very sincerely,

MARK

Although I wasn't there, it sounds to me like you may be passing the buck for not exercising the necessary due diligence. Have you considered offering refunds out of your own pocket? I'm surprised none of the hunters has consulted with a lawyer.

There are other outfitters who keep nearly all the funds in the USA, in escrow, until after the hunt, when everything is settled up. That's a good way to prevent things like this happening again.

"There are other outfitters who keep nearly all the funds in the USA, in escrow, until after the hunt, when everything is settled up."

I was always under the impression that was the primary reason to use a US based booking agent. I have to agree this sounds like a lot of CYA and excuses. At there very least Mark's commission should already be on it's way back to the hunters.
What really stumps me and maybe I totally missed the boat here but Mark is saying that he had great reports last year but that's surely not what I see Motor City saying about his hunt. It seems to me that this was a lot more than just a wee bit of "poor practice" or poor planning. It amazes me when things like this go go south that people with other wise stellar reputations resort to excuses and side stepping. Some one else summed it up very well when they said;
"As for refunds, there are some things that money can't fix. Some things can't be fixed at all"
However a refund of the commissions and a serious apology would probably go a long ways. I very much doubt any of them give a rats behind about hearing excuses about why they were sent to a different area to hunt and worse.
I'm sure many of us remember our drill instructors. Mine was a big mofo with a neck as big as a tree. When he yelled I swear the earth shook and when he yelled this little ditty that I've never forgotton you knew you were in seriously deep kim chee.

Excuses
Excuses
Excuses
Excuses build monuments to the incompetent

Guys,

Mark hasn't even had time to look into things yet and already he's being crucified by trial by internet by a jury who haven't any idea what happened, have only heard one side of the story (if that!) weren't there, possibly haven't even been to Africa, let alone Zimbabwe or that particular hunting area etc etc etc.

All this will do is cause a lot of bad feeling and hyteria on this forum for no reason.

Remember that comms are always slower in Africa in general than they are in the western world and especially difficult in Zimbabwe.

Why not do the forum in general and Ric in particular a big favour and simply STFU for now, and let the guy investigate things and then either come back here or deal directly with the parties involved and then let them come back to the forum if they feel so inclined..........

"simply STFU for now"

It's just a thought but you could always consider your own advice. Earlier you suggested we wait until Mark was back. Now he has responded so we do indeed have input from both sides. Unless a major refund is on the way I don't see any more excuses making a difference for why the hunters were treated this way. Mark even stated that aspects of this hunt were unacceptable. Period.
Trying to sweep a poor hunt under the table benefits no one but the outfitter.
I hope theese guys at the very least get the commission from the outfitter returned. That much is not out of Marks hands.

I believe at this point Mark has spoken and we have all had our say. We were allowed to comment on this as we were all solicited for the hunt. Now it is over and Mark has responded and really what else can we accomplish in a positive manner. It is started to travel in a strong direction. When we start using letters to state expressions for sayings that we use only to inflame because to actually type out the words sound too harsh. We are starting to go too far. Mark has said at least for now he is out of the Safari booking business. What happens between his clients and him at this point is really not our concern. It is up to them to work out anything if there is anything to work out.
Let us let this die down for now. The ball has been kicked out of bounds and the whistle has been blown.
Do you really want to keep kicking it?

To get everyone a good deal on this trip a lot of corners were cut in costs, including commisions. The idea was to enable everyone to have a great time at a good value and promote the great experiences that Africa has to offer, maybe inspring others to go. Didn't work out that way, obviously. I am still researching and trying to get solutions figured out. My pockets, in this business and on this trip in particular are not very deep. Some of this financial considerations, reductons in hunt fees) could have perhaps been handled in person at the end of the trip before the final payments were made but unfortuantly I could not be there this year and I know it can be difficult to argue financial points on the spot with your hunt operator right then and there at the end of a trip. I wasn't there so will not say what should have happened.

I appreciate Shakari and many others here who are allowing me a little time and space to try to sort out all that I can. Probably Closing up shop and not sending more hunters when I have sent many over the years is, I hope, enough of a negotiating lever to obtain some relief here, though I understand that the time is lost forever and I can do nothing about this. Lost to me may be a lot of investment of time, good will, advertising expenses, DVD production costs and time etc. But that is a risk we sometimes take in business and this thread is not about me. I am still seeking and waiting for Tim Schultz's reply to all of this. I cut and pasted many of the posts here and sent them to him. When he replies I will post his comments here. Lets give him an opprotunity to get back to all of us and hear his side as well as any offers he may or may not make to rectify the situation.

Again, many thanks to those who have spoken with good will regarding my character and hunting abilities and to those who are giving the VERY slow wheels of Africa, Zim in particular, a chance to turn. More to come.

BTW, I just updated my signature line and personal profile to reflect the changes going on.

On the topic of other hunts, I just had a hunter come back from a terrific Cape Buffalo with a bow hunt, and he loved it. His second hunt in as many years with Tim and myself. My last hunters of 2007 liked thier hunt and PH and overall experience so much they bought me a new GPS with sattelite link up etc. plus gave me a cash tip and are planning to go again. Very unuslal in this business. I have hunters from last year and this one who would be willing to be references if asked to do so. The 24hrcf trip was unusual and needs to be addressed, just updating and informing. Again, more to come when I have responses from Tim Schultz and other with whom I am consulting including members of the Zim proffesional hunters association.

You've just proved the point I was trying to make when I said 'All this will do is cause a lot of bad feeling and hyteria on this forum for no reason'.

At the risk of labouring my point, below are just a few of the things that might (note the word might) have happened to cause the situation. To make it easy, I'll number them and then I'll go onto possible solutions that might (note the word might) still occur and I'll letter those points. I'm not suggesting for a moment that any individual, group or company are to blame, nor am I intending to insult anyone. - I'm just pointing out a few possibilities and nothing more.

Also remember that the lists below wll be very incomplete and are only the ones that have sprung to my mind at the moment.

Until Mark has had time to look into it no-one knows the situation etc.

1. The original promised area might have been taken over by 'war vets' - If the guys had hunted there, they could have been prosecuted under the Lacey Act and thereby faced large fines and possibly long jail terms to say nothing of facing severe aggression from the 'new owners'. Therefore a last minute change of area might have been essential and it could be that area was the only one available.

2. The original promised area and/or camp might have suffered a severe bush fire rendering it unusable.

3. See above and replace the words bush fire with drought.

4. The GD might have closed the area, possibly at short notice for reasons such as disease etc.

5. Any of the various parties involved might have failed to (previously) pay another of the parties involved, which could have caused a late change of venue...... note, all payments have to go through the central bank and they could possibly have not paid on time.

6. Correct paperwork might for some reason have been unavailable at the last minute for the promised area or for a particular hunter etc. Remember that during the election period a Brit hunter got thrown into a Zim jail for 5 days without food or water for that very offense! - Surely a change of area would be preferable to that other option.

A. A refund of some kind might be coming from any of the parties involved.

B. A replacement hunt (either partial or total) might be coming from any of the parties involved.

C. Various court cases in various countries might be pending and debate here or elsewhere might affect those.

They're just a few possibilities and Im sure there are bucket loads more.......... and with that I'll sit back for a while and STFU and see if the forum has the maturity to adopt the policy of wait and see or if it feels the need to comment on things they know nothing about and tear the forum apart in the process.

Bye for now

This is the reason that Zim is not the destination it once was.
This is why recomendations are for anyone doing business in Zim and that includes going on a hunt to check it out carefully. The list of bads we cannot deal with is real. A fine line is walked and skirted on this issue.
Good areas do exist in Zim but there are a whole lot of places that are plain and simple bad. The governement allows a quota that is too ambitious to get the trophy fees. The good operators will not take the full quota. Poaching is a BIG problem in some areas. Zim is bit by bit falling apart. What will kill it will not be a total ban on hunting from US hunters. What will kill it is the deteriating condition of the amount of areas with huntable game. A report such as what was reported here is just the beginning as people try and ink out a living in the Safari business in Zim. We remember how it was. It is not that way anymore. Too many farms have been confiscated and consumed beyond repair. For many it is a moral descision whether to go or not. For most they will not go if the game promosed is just not there.
Africa is becoming more expensive and areas that offer good hunting at what is considered a more competitive rate are shrinking. This is not a lesson to be learned on just this safari operator in Zim.
I for one feel bad for anyone trying to do safari business in Zim at the moment.

"When we start using letters to state expressions for sayings that we use only to inflame because to actually type out the words sound too harsh."

Blaser guy, There is no "we" in that statement. Direct that at the poster that made the comment.

Shakari,
Not to put an overly fine point on it but you've been opining about this getting "hysterical" and out of hand. I firmly believe that that's exactly what your intent was when you used the "STFU" in an attempt at deflection and to quash the facts with a digressing thread. You've done a bang up job of showing your true character.
Your entire list of "reasons" for a failed hunt may have potenential for validity although I have to wonder about the part where the hunters were run out of camp in the middle of the night or multiple hunting parties in one area, no permits etc.
No doubt you have a long list of "reasons" there as well.
Then there is my confusion about how Mark insists that all of his hunters from last year were thrilled. When I read Motor City's and Test1328 posts that doesn't appear to be the case. Not even close.
Maybe I'm the only one seeing that or I have seriously missread something.
I rather doubt this was a charity hunt with zero commission so at the risk of being redundant I'll simply close by saying it's just MHO but it would seem a refund of commissions and an aplogy would go a long ways. No response from Africa is required for that when the outfitter openly acknowledges that aspects of the hunt were "unacceptable"

Shakari,

Most of the reasons you have given are good reasons why a trip should be canceled, even at the last minute, by the opperator and a full refund given to the hunter.

Draughts for example do not happen overnight. A dispute between an opperator and a landowner may or may not happen overnight, but they are the absolute responsibility of the opperator and so if a dispute that is irresolvable prior to or during the hunt develops again a full refund is the prper recourse.

Last minute switches should "never" happen, but if they do, it should be only to an equal or better location, and not the opposite and sure as hell not to an area without quota.

Quota is know well in advance, changes infrequently and in Zim there is a provision for optional quota above annual quota within the concessions greater management plan. A Concession holder shouldn't be in the bisiness of SELLING QUOTA HE DOESN'T HAVE!!! In the event of a FU, and they will happen, the only recourse if a full refund to the hunter.

Private landowners are responsible for the management of their wildlife, and cooperate with Parks. Much of the quota setting is at the landowners discretion, he need to use it, to insure that he has both the quota and the game available that he has ALREADY SOLD!!!

I hope Mark is successful is wrangling refund money from an opperator who, from the reports here, seems to be selling what isn't his to sell.

JPK

Stetson

Yes you have missread something........ in fact, in this case, most things. What I'm trying to do is exactly what I've said in my earlier posts. Nothing more and nothing less. It's so ridiculous when these things turn into flaming wars because of uninformed comments from people who were not there, don't know anything about what happened and probably know very little about Africa or the African hunting industry.

The reason I used the expression STFU is that it's more polite than using the entire words........ the reason I use the word [bleep] is that I'm British by birth and English by the grace of God and in our culture, we use the word [bleep] a great deal.

Very often, in fact usually, it's not meant in an insulting way, just to add sentiment or underline a statement. For example, if something is nicer than nice, it's [bleep]' nice, if something is uglier that ugly, it's [bleep]' ugly and if a Buff is bigger than big.......... I'm sure you can work out the rest!

All races have individual cultures and sub cultures and none are better than the other......... they're just different and in my culture the word [bleep] is a very useful word....... and as we invented it, I reckon we have every right to use it any way we [bleep]' like......... but hey, don't get upset, I'm only pulling your [bleep]' leg!

JPK

My point is that no-one knows what happened yet, not even Mark and that it's unfair that he be crucified until he discovers what happened and takes whatever action he feels appropriate etc....... that's all. Nothing more and nothing less.....

I'm sure you know southern Africa has been suffering a well known drought for several years and you should also know that drought has affected areas very differently depending on a lot of factors such as number of waterholes and overgrazing etc. My point is WE DON'T YET KNOW.........

BTW - My short list of reasons didn't include quota at all....

Like you, I hope Mark is successful in wrangling refund money from the operator.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but from what I know of Mark he's a stand up guy, and will do the right thing. seems the only ones fanning the flames here weren't on the trip. the ones that were know that flying off the handle won't help, the damage has been done. it takes a cool head to sort through things at this point. everyone agrees the trip sucked over all. it doesn't look to me like anyone is intentionally trying to cover anything up.
its too bad it went south for all parties involved.
I'm interested to see how this pans out, I won't post anymore, just follow along. I hope all parties are satisfied when it gets settled.

Stetson,

I'll add rather than edit for clarity....... you do make one very good point, which is about the guys getting kicked out of camp in the middle of the night. As far as I'm concerned, that is unforgivable and simply should never have happened. Ive never heard of such a thing in all the almost 30 years I've been involved in the hunting industry. Even if money was owed, it's not the fault of the clients.......

"It's so ridiculous when these things turn into flaming wars because of uninformed comments from people who were not there"

Perhaps that's true but then it applies to you as well. Your speculation and opinions are no more valid than any one elses that wasn't there.
I'm sure we are all intelligent enough here to understand the difference between a humorous F this or that and "STFU". It's not polite by any stretch. We all know what it means and we all know if we spell out something like,
stiff assed [bleep] Britt it gets bleeped.
I have nothing more to add other than to say I think the most relevant point is that we are all hoping for the best outcome possible for the hunters.

In order, ending whenever I get bored.


1)Area was not taken over by war vets. Hunts had been very recently held there, and more were planned. My PH voiced the opinion that that is where he wished we were.Although it isn't relevent the Lacey Act does not apply to Canadians.Whatever the reason for the change was, it was not the above.The area we were in may have been all that was available but not for these reasons.

2)No fire. The outfit had experienced a fire in another area/camp that I had hunted last year and told me about it. Since fires seemed to be worth mentioning, they wouldn't have forgotten about one in the hunting area.

3) No drought, quite the opposite in fact. Cover was a bit thicker than average for that time of year.

4)Nope, no game department closure. One of the discussed areas was never opened in the first place, but that was known far in advance of the hunt to the outfitter.

5)Money..BINGO!! The root of all evil. Schultz had two money disputes that we know about. One stopped a member from hunting the area that he moved to hunt. Another had us moving camps at night.Things have gone down-hill badly when the clients are being told about the owner's money disputes or woes.For the record, the clients held up their end, moneywise.

You're right, I wasn't there. However, I have been in the African hunting industry for 28 years, live in Africa and in recent years have spent something like 6 months (sometimes more) a year in the bush..........(this year is different for me, but that's by the by) but I'm not the one that's ready to cricify various parties before the result is in........

Here's one Brit that isn't stiff assed......... in fact, it's a concept that I don't just hate, it's a concept I [bleep]' hate!

Sharari,

First off, I gotta good kick out of your post prior to the one responsing to mine... [bleep]' funny post,,hahaha...!!!

On other issues, hey I'm not crucifying Mark, only the outfitter.

Nothing like a drought or a change in allowed quota, or probably anything beyond his control changed between his selling the hunt, taking the money and then renegging on his obligations. Furthermore, he went on to collect money at the conclusion of the safari, rather than stand hat in hand appologetically handing back refunds. Which is what a fair and straight up guy would do. FU's happen, how you fix them is what counts. This guy swindled money.

And if something beyond the outfitter's control changed, he should have cancelled the hunt and refunded the money, or if it happened mid-hunt done all he could to make things right, like a change to a decent area and/or a refund. BTW, hope like hell the fellows who shot an ele in a Zim park are not prosecuted under the Lacey Act. Even though these hunts are being offered the violate the Zim game laws.

Selling quota you don't have or acquire, for hunts in areas you either don't have or haven't arranged for is just wrong and is a form of theft.

JPK

JPK

Glad you enjoyed a bit of English humour! - sometimes if people aren't Brits, they just don't appreciate the humour at all....

The examples I used were just suggestions of the sort of thing that could have been a factor in what happened..... nothing more.

It certainly sounds like the hunt went tits up for some reason but as I keep saying, all I'm trying to do is avoid this thing turning into a trial by internet with a jury of people who weren't there and don't know what happened, before Mark has had a chance to find everyhing out.

Mark has been a member of this forum a long time and has contributed an awful lot and I feel it's unfair for anyone to find him guilty before he's had a chance to do any more than make an opening statement that simply says he's trying to look into the matter. Hell, he wasn't even along on the hunt, so in effect, he probably doesn't know much more at this point that you, I or the rest of the jury..........

Lets also remember that Zim is deeply in the doo doo right now and many places only have occasional electricity or phones so it's gonna take a while to even get hold of anyone over there....

Shakari,

I'll repeat, I'm not trying to crucify Mark, just the opperator.

I am aware that there can be some extremely few and rare legitamate reasons for a nessecary but unexpected move. None apparent nor even remotely likely in this case.

On Zim comms, well, I dunno, just ten minutes ago got off the phone confirming a "last minute" Zim hunt with "my" PH, who set the hunt up at my request, made maybe two weeks ago, during which intervening time the PH was in the bush. We'll be hunting three tuskless and a bushbuck in Chewore, a trophy bull and two tuskless in Makuti as well as a leopard there. Huny dates Oct 1 - ? I need to be back in town for a business obligation the 21st.

Non-export bulls were also available elsewhere in Zim.

There is still elephant quota available in Zim, so moving the hunter to a non-scheduled area back then and not having ele quota when hunters who have paid for an ele hunt arrive was particularly weak, don't you think?

JPK

JPK

Most of my comments were not aimed at you and I appreciate you don't blame Mark...... but I really do think we all need to wait and see what Mark discovers and does etc...... these issues are never sorted out overnight.

I'm glad to hear you can get through to Zim..... I've been trying to get through to Bulawayo for weeks and still haven't had much luck!......... I've been trying to export some machinery from there to RSA for months and am still trying!!!

I wish you all the luck in the world on your hunt....... except perhaps on the [bleep]' Elephant cows!

Shoot straight on that Leopard!

Yes, I got through to Zim (rather the PH got through to me - maybe by sat phone? I emailed the PH and he emailed me with no trouble either way.), but importantly, the guys in Zim are getting through to each other, even on short notice. Otherwise there'd be no way to find that many elephants in so short a time, and there were more elephant opprtunities the PH and I culled through to come with a workable plan with what time and elephants were available and where.

The tuskless hunts will surely be a [bleep] 'n good time!

Edited to add that I will surely do my best on the leopard, that is one creature that needs to be shot well, as your photos attest. I've shot a few hyhena when it was too dark to see them with the naked eye, and each was a good boiler room shot, so I suppose I'm ready for any low light opportunities. If its light enough for the PH, Rich Tabor, to see nuts, I should have plenty of light for a shot.

JPK

Shakari,

They're on to your English humor and my appreciation of it, they've turned on the [bleep] 'n censor machine!!!

JPK

[bleep] yes.

[bleep]' Brits!

I tip my hat to a great response Rick Bin.

I may not stop laughing until tomorrow.

JPK

Good one Rick. I'm taking time out from heating up the tar now!

Feckin' good one Ric!!!!!

Don't try to CY [bleep] A like that! No doubt you offered that same little cover your azz disclaimer BEFORE the hunt. RIGHT? You endorsed this deal the moment you allowed the 24 hour hunt title to be utilized. Expressed and implied warranties certainly could apply to you. It's a funny little thing about disclosing information, you have to do it before the deal goes to schit not after. It's entirely feasable and reasonable to conclude that those involved may well have accepted a hunt with terms like this solely or at least partially based on the faith and trust of the campfire name.

I am rolling on the floor laughing my azz off!!!

Congrats Shakari!!!

JPK

Sometimes my sense of humour just gets the better of me and I just can't help myself......

With fall approaching, a load of feathers is easy to procure.

Time for me to lock up my (bleep)ing tea chests....... (bleep)ing colonials!

JPK,

On a more serious note (for a second or two) might I recommend a Surefire Kroma as a very useful tool on your Leopard hunt.

Hi: On a lighter note. You are on your Honeymoon you only need one pair of underwear and a T for shopping etc. Sorry could not help myself. Regards Dan

I got ahold of Tim by phone today. He told me some of what went on but he will be answering all of the concerns via e-mail to me within a few days and I will post his reply here when I get it. He may have tried to send it already but e-mails are a bit scetchy even now. We will see what is forthcoming.

Mark,
It will be interesting to see if he still maintains the position that neither the lack of permits or a camp are his fault.

I know I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I have hunted in Zimbabwe. The questions that come to my mind are:
1) Why use a booking agent, if he isn't held responsible (either financially or otherwise) when things go wrong?

2) Why, after the hunts that went sour previously with this particular hunting outfit/PH/whatever Tim Shultz is, did the agent continue to book hunts with him?

3) How were the previous hunts with Schultz that went bad addressed by the booking agent? For example, did the booking agent respond positively and work out an mutually acceptable with the previous clients, or were their complaints felled on deaf ears?

I had a wonderful hunt in Zimbabwe with HHK Safaris. It was in a great conservancy, huge tract of wild lands and so much interesting wild game that I was in awe the whole time. My agent held monies and made sure I was satisfied before reaching a "close-out" agreement with the outfitter/PH.

If the booking agent is only a portal to send money to the PH, which I don't believe they are, then why not arrange hunts direct and save the booking agent's fee? I used a booking agent because I knew I had a written contract with him if something went wrong I had legal/financial recourse here in the USA, and someone would be held responsible.

Without someone being liable for a truely f'ed situation, I can see no reason to go through a booking agent... Booking agents make money from outfitters/PHs by handing over clients to them without the outfitter/PH having to mess with the communications and paperwork. However, for the clients paying the premium of using the agent, there should be some responsibility on the part of the agent to insure the client isn't sold a bridge in BFE without delivery. When previous clients start having problems and those are either ignored or otherwise cast aside, any future bookings by the agent seems to be an accomplice in the fraud to future clients.

Yeah...and I'm also sure Rick gets rich from letting you post here for free...

Seems that nobody remembers T-I-A...ZIM is about the best example of this. Don'cha love the new "majority rule" sweeping Africa? If you have gobbs of loot to throw at a safari, chances are that all will be perfect. Honor and good will mean nothing anymore, with a very few exceptions. I found that out early on in dealing with safari outfitters.

Another thing I learned was easy given promises often mean a measured lack of candor when dealing with ANY outfitter, here, there, anywhere.

I feel Mark acted in good faith, but remember, T-I-A; it ins't just a quaint saying.

My 2cents worth. It is quite possible that Safariman was just as much a victim as the paying hunters. I've had two excellent hunts with Steyn Safaris out of Barberton, SA. Both of these hunts were absolutely fantastic. I found the Steyns to be honest, hardworking professionals. If Abie (my PH) tells you, that he can get you within 20 yards of a buff, Believe It (he got me within 8 meters of a herd). If your chances for leopard are less than 20% over bait, he will tell you up front. I would book with them in a minute. However, that doesn't mean I will always get a super hunt, but I do believe they will never cheat me or misrepresent the current situations.

But as someone said, "hunting is not a sure thing". That is true, but misrepresenting the area "oh, its full of buffalo", when there hasn't been a fresh track in months, is not "just hunting", it is blatant "lying".

Should Safariman be responsible for outcome of the hunts? Not unless he knew in advance that the areas to be hunted were less than desirable.

As for the outfitter, the fact that a land owner wouldn't let him hunt his place, because the outfitter still owed him money, says it all for me.

One of the side effects of the Zimbabwe political situation, is that white people are leaving in droves. Those that are still there, are probably trying to get as much money as possible before they decide to abandon their homes and businesses.

Although ZIM still has areas with a lot of game and good tariffs, things seem to be spiraling downhill at a faster rate.

Just my thoughts.

TIM SCHULTZ'S REPLY:

Hi Mark

Regards Kanak and company, I am highly pissed off with what these guys have posted on the internet. If they had spoken to me before going as far as they have I would have considered some form of compensation towards their hunts, but their reports are damaging. I was in camp with Kanak and Matheson for at least a week and not once whilst I was there did they complain or mention they were unhappy in any way. Nobody was booted out of camp in the middle of the night as Kanak states (outright lie), I decided to move out of the camp we were using because I was not happy with the camp managers attitude, my client and Matheson moved camp at lunch time during the day and whilst we were hunting in the afternoon met Kanak's hunting crew and told them we had moved camp, so that when they finished hunting they just had to collect their stuff and move camp which of course was in the evening so they did not have to lose any hunting time. I might add that when we were packed and leaving camp, the camp manager said that there was no need to leave but by then the damage was done by telling the clients that there were only goats, donkeys and cattle in the area, so I arranged another camp.

As regards to hunting elephant, my client and I in 6 days hunting in the same area saw numerous elephant and three times came upon elephant with at least 45lb tusks, my client eventually shot a 50lb + elephant. My understanding is that Kanak would have been happy with a 40lb. My client then went on to shoot a 43" sable and 39" buffalo with 13" solid bosses, the following hunt after Kanak and company, a 190lb leopard with 16 and half " skull was taken as well as 2 huge hippo and 2 11 foot crocodiles and 2 very good solid boss buffalo, not bad for a goat, donkey, snare infested area!!!!

Matheson has no room to talk, he had already shot his non-trophy elephant and a very nice buffalo by the time I got to camp, the trackers that he talks about were my trackers that I took over, he had a 3rd tracker (Jeremiah) who had been with him all the time who I might add is very experienced, the skinner who went with them was Sylvester, my top skinner who also fills in as a tracker and is very experienced in his own right. I would like to know where Matheson read about this area as it comes under Matetsi which is prime hunting area. It is part of a campfir area and I did not think it was an issue, you do see goats and donkeys in campfire areas. Once again Matheson never once suggested he was unhappy even when asked. How could I even try to improve things if these guys did not let anyone know how they felt.

As for Dale Strong he still shot his animals he was contracted to hunt, but he was also very negative from the start, how do you please a guy like this? It did not help that he had an idiot for a professional hunter but unfortunately that was my mistake.

Regards Sengwe I and II, We pulled out of this area very recently on short notice as an army base was established down there after the elections and there was a lot of intimidation towards the locals, as it is an opposition party stronghold we did not think it would be safe to have any clients in that environment at the time therefore relinquished our rights to hunt there, we have not hunted there this year at all. Also, a government minister is wanting to control these areas to sell hunts and it is unadvisable to be in competition with these people.

We hunt all our buffalo and elephant in Omay North and Matetsi near Victoria Falls. I will send you pictures of animals taken in these areas.

On the lighter side of things Bianca shot her first non-trophy elephant with a heart-lung shot from a 375 winchester, we then had to shoot a charging elephant in self defense and dropped it at 8 paces, exciting stuff - her first experience with shooting an elephant and a charge, good experience!!

Best regards

Tim


I will add that this is essentially what Tim told me on the telephone a couple of days ago. In essence that the decision to change area's was made in the best interest of the hunters safety and quality of hunting experience. On the phone I was advised that the army guys were shooting up the game as well and making things pretty wierd. He also tells me that the camp manager who was so rude to everyone told him that there WERE non trophy ele on quota in the area and Tim was not advised that there were not until very late in the game. Tim did his best at a trying time to get something done and getting permits to hunt Ele in the nearby park (legally, under PAC rules) was the best option available to him and took a lot of footwork by his office staff to pull off in such a short amount of time.

I was not there, unfortunately, so I cannot comment much beyond what I have already said, I am just presenting Tims side of things including what I have from a phone call from him plus the e-mail that I cut and pasted as promised.

It looks as though a big part of the problems experienced came from the camp manager who sounds like a plant from PITA or something like that. Maybe a guy with a power trip emotional problem. Hunt was placed there on short notice based upon this guys reprsentations RE good hunting, non trophy ele quota available etc. and Tim is EXTREMELY dis-satisfied
(Putting this mildly....) with the way this was all handled. The hunt area / camp was arrainged on relatively short notice when it became readily apparent that the original hunting area was not going to be a good plan due to ARMY activity and the areas being strongholds for anti Mugabe villages and people. Tim was holding out hope until the last possible minute that the ARMY and others would leave in time to still have a good hunt there. It was sincerely beleived by Tim, according to him, and as represented by the same idiot who gave the hunters so much grief that the area and hunt would be a good one. Tim will NOT be utilizing this guys hunting camp ever again.

I have personally hunted with Tims trackers, Edward and M'buta, several times and I know them to be fantastic trackers. I have known Sylvester and his family for quite a few years and he is a class act. I have plans to sponsor his kids soccer team this winter.

We now have Tims reply and information so that we now have some of both sides of the issue. Thanks again to those who held out the flaming until both sides of the story could be heard. I have several more hunters going to hunt with Tim in the next weeks and months. I am meeting with some of them in person tonight to show them photos of a new area that we want to hunt them in 'Denlinyan' in the Beitbridge region surrounded by Orange groves as our original location of Shosane (Mike shot his girrafe here last year and I shot my Zebra there last year) lodge was hit by brush fires and apx 90% of the area was just burned. If it rains before these folks go in October we may still pt them there as this could cause vegetation growth and a return of the game animals in good numbers with great visibility. I would sure love to be one of the first hunters to go in there next year for plains game!

I hope this post helps to shine some light on the subject. I am still putting advertising and hunt placements on hold for further info and reports back from both my other hunters going this year and still waiting on info from others in Zimbabwe who are all out hunting right now.

MARK

And that gentlemen is exactly why trial by internet with a jury who weren't there, don't know what happened, have only heard one side of the story and often don't know a great deal about the African hunting industry (to say the least)can be so dangerous.

I'm not suggesting the matter is over, or if one party or another is innocent or guilty, but it is a good example of how one party might possibly not be quite as completely guilty as many here first thought.

Like I said, sometimes it's a better idea to settle these things in private and then, if necessary, to announce the result.

I'm almost tempted to suggest that one or two of you might possibly owe Mark and indeed Rick a [bleep]' apology.......

Incidentally, I thought some of you might enjoy this from a stiff assed Brit! (if the bleep machine permits it!)

http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/[bleep].html (You'll have to replace the word (bleep) with the F word!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=M_cjRvIuQgc

If people had followed this small suggestion and held their �fire� for another 6 days, until Tim Schultz had had a opportunity to give his side of the �story�, we would, as Shakari so rightly point out, have avoided this undignified �trial by internet�. And I do agree; a few apologies just might be in order.

NAN

As I stated before, I had nothing to do with this hunt. No apologies are necessary in this direction. I'm just a casual observer of the thread as much as anyone else.

Rick

My innate and possibly stiff assed English good manners prevents me from quoting the post, but there was one I felt was bloody rude to you, (esp as you're our host)......... which was why I suggested you were also owed an apology.

Although I guess it might have been what passes for America humour........ or should that be humor?

I appreciate the sentiment. The principals in this deal are the ones that need the love. Hunts that go bad suck!

One thing I noticed is Schultz says he would consider some "compensation" but won't because he's mad at them now. I say BS. If they are entitled to compensation they should get it and denying it for any reason is just weaseling out of it.

Other than that, in hunting diputes like this, there are at least three sides to every story.

Where Schultz is concerned there can be more than 3 sides to a story, he is quite capable of having more than 1 side himself depending on how it suits him. Judge for yourselves which version which version of Schultz' "truth", if any, you care to believe.


----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
Date: Friday, August 8, 2008 3:49 am
Subject: Hunt

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi Mike
>
> I trust you got back home ok, I believe there were a few issues on
> your hunt you were not happy about, I'm surprised you never said
> anything before you left.
>
> Firstly the area you were in only had no quota for non-trophy
> elephant, which unfortunately we did not know about. The reason we
> had to go to that area was due to the fact that Mark Claiborne did
> not send forward your deposits until just before your hunt, I
> remember Dan e-mailing you regarding this, we even threatened to
> cancel all of Mark's hunts unless we received deposits. Had we
> received your deposits earlier on in the year we could have secured
> animals for you elsewhere. We had originally booked you down to go
> to the Omay (where we do most of our hunting) which is one of the
> best areas in Zimbabwe and received an e-mail from Mark Claiborne
> requesting that his clients are not sent there due to the fact that
> one of his client's not shooting a buffalo in the 7 days that he
> was up there, therefore the change was a result of that as it had
> to be a last minute decision to send you to the Matetsi area. Only
> 2 clients out of 10 who have been sent to the Omay have not taken
> their buffalo.
>
> When we did find out we made some enquiries for non-trophy elephant
> and were offered 5 by our National Parks, as you know. National
> Parks issued us with the permit for these and will receive their
> payment in trade ie equipment that the Parks & Wildlife Authority
> need desperately, like landrover parts and fuel for example. This
> is happening all over the country as it is a culling management
> program and there is nothing illegal as far as I am aware, we do
> not conduct business illegally. I am very surpised that Don Heath
> does not know about the culling management program.
>
> I had made arrangements with the camp prior to your arrival, the
> camp manager and I did have a fall out, because of his attitude and
> not because he kicked us out, I am awaiting an apology letter which
> I will forward on to you once received. I have received a verbal
> apology but am awaiting the written one.
>
> As for Dale Strong he was not sent to another area, he left of his
> own accord, his PH then took it upon himself to take Dale where he
> thought he could hunt, we have not hunted on the property he took
> Dale to hunt on for some time due to a small dispute over some
> animals which does happen occassionally. Dale's ph did not liaise
> or communicate with us much at all and has a lot to answer for.
>
> I am sorry that you were disappointed with your hunt and wish that
> you had discussed this with us and we could have ironed a few
> things out.
>
> Yours in hunting
>
> Tim Schultz




Tim,
It would be an enormous relief to believe the permits are legal, and as long as I'm not going to be charged with anything I'm probably happier leaving that part alone. The permit copy will be appreciated though.


You have done a fair job of outlining our complaints, area change, and lack of permits. We all discussed these issues with our respective PHs daily and have already received the same answers. The trouble is the answers change nothing, we were still in the same area with no quota until in the last day in my case. How would you react if you booked and paid for in advance a North American Elk hunt, were sent to a different area without any notice and didn't have a licence until the last day? At that point no amount of reasons could salvage the hunt. There are some kinds of "broken" that can't be fixed.

The camp manager Shane? Sean? (who I agree is very much an [bleep]) took great delight in telling us nightly that he was going to kick us out soon. This started before you got there, so it was no enormous surprise when we were left packing our bags in the middle of the night. The camp manager also claims that he had no knowledge that we were coming at all. Someone is not telling the truth.

The area may have only been missing permits for non-trophy elephant, but since that was what the 3 hunts were booked for, it's a deal stopper at that point. How hard is it to pick up a phone to find out? It must be somewhat easier than the method we used, which was to fly halfway around the world to learn the same thing.

Dale Strong did ask to be moved, not that he could be blamed for that. He also insisted that all calls made by his PH be made on speaker phone, so has heard plenty on both sides of those conversations.

What goes on between you and Mark is your business. What transpires between you and camp managers is your business. Securing quota for the hunts is your business. Not letting your business become your client's problem is your business. Why should we be happy? Why would you think we would be?

I don't remember telling anyone that we were pleased with the hunt, indeed the opposite was true. Whether a few animals died or not, we didn't get the hunt we were sold. My only recourse may be to help prevent others from making the same mistake. Once everyone has had their say, I'll post the hunt report that 24 hour campfire and Accurate Reloading are expecting. I doubt very much that anyone will be impressed, but needless to say I've been wrong before.
Mike Kanak

I sometimes wonder what it is in human nature that so often makes us seek approval from people we don't know.........

All that'll be achieved by airing it all in public will be to cause arguments on the forum and get EVERYONE involved a bad reputation.

Surely this is even more reason this needs to be sorted out privately between the parties involved.

As this hunt was solicited to me and others on this web site I do have an interest on the outcome. It is clear that clients were not happy with aspects of this years and last years hunt. If this hunt was not brought to the attention of the viewers of this site in the form of a solicitation I would not have the same interest. Since this has been an ongoing event the last two years I would appreciate feedback from the parties that went as referances. That is a problem with selling these kind of hunts is that the operators and agents take alot of chances if things do not go well. If it worked then you hit a home run.
We each make our own minds up.
What I read into this is alot of excuses. Too many for what is spent on a safari in regards to time and money.
I have not seen anything that would give me hope that I would like to take a chance on one of these hunts. It does apear that too much is left to chance trying to make these hunts work. With all the changes in Zim due to the political issues I feel you must work very hard choosing operators that have established areas that they are able to have ongoing stable operations. Let us face it. The real meat of this situation is that the safari operator "tried to make do" with a hunt.
If I book a hunt accross the world the operator and booking agent better understand that I do not want to experience a "try to make do" hunt. For me I want to be told that all is not well so I can decide whether to give them my money and take a chance.
I think that some times the American (or Canadian)hunter is seen as having too much time and money. It is not the case with all of us. I know these safari operators are trying to hang on in a country that is trying to milk its legendary past for all it is worth. They need hunters. Hunters need good and professionaly run hunts. I am sorry but this hunt did not work. I would not take one of these hunts for any cost.

Also the Brit F jokes are getting too old for me. Nothing personal but could we let them go.

What will be achieved is simple. People will be warned of potential problems with a certain outfitter. They may also be able to take steps to protect themselves, such as the escrow account that someone suggested. In addition there is the little matter of someone calling me a liar, a situation that I find intolerable.

I'm not suggesting the outcome should be kept secret, I'm just suggesting that trial by internet never works for any of the parties involved because the jury that's created by trial by internet weren't there, don't know what happened, have often only heard one side of the story and often don't know a great deal about the African hunting industry (to say the least). - Far better to sort it out offline and then announce the result.

The other factor is the libel laws I mentioned earlier. Make no mistake about it the penalties can be very severe if someone posts an untruthful statement.

Blaserguy,

About the F word............... not fcuking likely!!!!!

Explanation/Excuses for why things went wrong won't change what has already happened. References are what sell hunts. The feedback from the guys that went on the hunt are the ones I'm concerned with. One hunter on this trip has a terrible hunt, might be a rare case. All the hunters having simular opinions raises concern. Based on what I've read, I'd expect a substantial amount of money returned. But that's me and I know it's not likely. Some things like time and airfare can't be replaced.

Shakari,
I left Africa knowing that there was nothing that would ever get sorted out. The private discussions have already been done, nothing was resolved, and this is the announcement of the results.
As for libel, I was there and know the truth.

I would imagine if the hunt was everything it was supposed to be these men would have glowing reports that would delight the outfitter and bolster his reputation and I highly doubt people would be demanding to silence the praise.

I personally, want to hear the good, the bad and the ugly so I can make an informed decision as to whose services I might employ in the future. My .02.

Censorship might be a tactic employed by the British but it don't carry water in the good ol' U.S of A.....thank God.

I'm with blaser_guy and rmpace on this. This was a train wreck, pure and simple, and there should be a refund. It WAS kept quiet and off the internet for over a year, The outfitter and agent KNEW there were problems, and did nothing. Continued silence would only have resulted in someone else down the road having the same bad experience at a later date.

If shakari thinks this is a normal way to do business, I don't think I would want to book with him, either.

Totally uncalled for... jorge

How so???

Cricketts........<grin>

Out of this whole abortion of a thread with f*ck this and bleep that my comment about the Brits propensity for censorship is uncalled for? Not untrue but uncalled for? That's a classic. Especially considering your signature line calling somebody un-American.

No crickets, I just had other things to do on a Sunday to immediately drop everything and respond to your post. I don't agree with your censorship comment regarding the Brits. I believe all Shakari was advocating was time in order to let both sides respond as one side was out of pocket. As far as this whole apparent fiasco of a hunt, there might be two sides to every story, but in the customer service business perception is a central component to success, as is the costs incurred for a particular hunt. I am truly sorry for all concerned here as all involved seem to be decent gents.

As far as anti-American goes, if one supports the democrap platform, well, if the shoe fits...jorge

+1!

The way Tim speaks about his clients is a lot less than professional. He admidts compensation was something he would have considered before theese guys complained and then later states no one told him there was a problem. I doubt many of us believe that, however I can completly understand why a hunter under theese circumstances might not confront Tim in Africa but they are surely telling him now!
We have multiple hunters from two years telling us there were problems. We have the guy in the hot seat pointing fingers and making excuses. It wasn't hard to see where this was going from the beginning.
In the end Mark and Tim are seemingly trying to dump all the problems on another guy. The questions I see for for both Mark and Tim;
If this guy was such a flaming idiot as you state then why did you employ him? Why did you send your paying clients to an UNPROVEN camp and most importantly why would Tim continue to "hold out hope" that any information from an individual that you describe as potentially having "emotional problems" might be accurate? It just doesn't add up other than to simply say IMO Tim was grossly negligent in sending theese guys to that camp.
Mark had admitted some aspects of this hunt were unacceptable. Tim is "EXTREMELY dis-satisfied
(Putting this mildly....)"
So where is the refund? How are Mark and Tim attempting to make this right? By blaming the clients?
No doubt Shakari will now try to regale us with posts ad nauseum of F this and F that in an attempt to convince us all that excuses are more than satisfactory when a hunt goes bad.
I continue to feel poorly for the guys that got burned on this deal.

a HUGE +1 on this....

keeping my nose from going where it does not belong, but i do sympathize with all involved!

Jorge---Do you define censorship thru the lenses of your own offense?

I am amazed at times, how fast some are to condemn fellow Americans while standing up for foreigners who do the very thing they condemn in their countrymen....but if the shoe fits.

No I define censorship according to Webster's or any other accepted medium. I just don't see it here, from anybody. But if it's your goal to bait, you go right ahead, Ace. jorge

Censorship only matters when the GOVERNMENT does it. If I tell soemone to shut up, that isn't censorship.

Thanks for putting it into your own words kiddo. Carry on....

[quote=Blaine]Censorship only matters when the GOVERNMENT does it./quote]

Really.....

Schultz, in his email to Mark has added his own "Idiot PH" to the list of people at fault other than himself. Apparently we three clients are to blame and lie or is it complain too much or not enough? The camp manager lies about everything, and his own booking agent conspires to destroy hunts by changing the hunt locations and lied to us about opportunities. He really should choose his business associates more carefully, these ones are just dragging him down.

Gentlemen,

Nowhere did I mention censorship of any kind and if anyone truly thinks I did, they need to buy temselves a dictionary and/or a pair of glasses.

What I've been repeatedly advocting was that the parties concerned stay calm and sort it out in private and then come back onto the forum and announce the result......... the reason I suggested that, as I've repeatedly stated, was to avoid a flaming war (that does nothing but damage the forum) between a jury who were not there, don't know what really happened and mostly don't know much about the realities of the safari business etc etc. Don't feel offended by that last point, it's not meant to insult, it's meant to illustrate the point that the safari business can be extremely complex and one needs to have been in the business for a long time to appreciate that fact.

That hasn't happened and it comes as no suprise to me that a flaming war that will contribute nothing to the outcome and is already damaging the forum has broken out............ Wow, what a suprise!

I'll add that if the various parties involved had proper safari contracts then it should be fairly straightforward enough to sort out and if they didn't, then they should have done. Also that you don't get what you don't pay for and anyone who doesn't realise that simple fact of life really is mistaken.

Please note that I'm not taking sides here or saying who is or isn't to blame.......... I wasn't there so I don't know what happened......

Alleging damage to the forum strikes me as a bit of a red herring. With any due respect, I don't see it.

Don't you think that insults and accusations cause bad feelings?

I do. Esp when they're made by people who were not there and have no idea what really really happened.

I don't worry much about insults or I'd never gotten on, but it's just the internet. When that's all that's involved, most people with something else to do move on.

Unanswered accusations stand on their own, depending on the poster. It doesn't take long to figure out the credibility of a poster who's been around a while.

Personally, I think it's very common for people to take sides. - It's human nature and has very obviously happened here. As there are 3 sides involved then someone must be (at least partially)right and someone must be (at least partially) wrong and some members seem to be taking one side and some the other...... with insults and accusations being made (etc) therefore, logic tells us that bad feeling between forum members is caused.

All I'm trying to do is suggest that those who were involved and know what happened sort it out between them and then if they feel the need, to announce it. Quite simply really.

Doing it in public with all the inherent hysteria doesn't do any of the parties any favours - and that includes the clients.

Fighting in the forum is fruitless. Airing concerns not so prblematic. Except for the exact words I've written, I don't have a firm position on this yet and may never have one. I'm trying to disagree on the value of posting info without being disagreeable about it. I believe you are doing the same.

Exactly how many posts have you contributed to that? Five times as many as any other poster?
What you have been attempting to do is invoke the herd mentality. We've all seen it before in threads like this. The popular guys and the parties involved all back up in a circle like a herd of musk ox to protect their hind quarters. Any one that says anything against the popular guy or the status quo gets the bull by the horns. Never mind the truth or helping others not go down the same path in the future.
This thread has been virtually devoid of the lynch mob mentality that you have done so much gum flapping about. However since the beginning of this thread you have been trying to shut every one down.
You keep spouting off about years of experience so tell us all Shakari what exactly would you do in this case? Blame your clients? Refuse refunds? Tell us your PH is mental?
I hope for the sake of your clients that you don't carry on with them the way you have on this thread.
In regard to your claims of hard feelings aparantly in all your years in Africa you never developed a thick hide. If this thread does continue down some slippery slope I have little doubt it will be in no small part from your enumerate contributions.

I know this is probably a waste of time because the point appears to have been missed repeatedly. But...


It seems a though the appropriate way to do business is behind closed doors in which the hunters experience is suppressed. And as stated earlier, only if the hunt was a disappointment. The fact is the hunters were/are not happy and felt the need to disclose this information to make other hunters aware of the potential for a not so great hunt. Nothing wrong with that and as far as side go, I am a potential candidate for a hunt not for running a safari business. As stated earlier as well, references sell hunts.

Stetson,

I've been trying to keep the situation calm rather than have all the fisi pile into what may well be an innocent man.

As to what I'd do in this situation......... I dont know, I wasn't there and consequently don't know what happened. Therefore how would I know what to do? .......... I think you need to re-read my posts, because I'm not defending anyone, I'm just pointing out that trial by internet doesn't work because the jury aren't given all the info, weren't there, don't know what happened and don't know much about the African hunting industry.....

You're right, I do have quite a lot of experience. I've been in the business for close to 30 years, hunted a variety of African countries both personally and professionally co-written one small book, am effectively writing another far more comprehensive one now and also write for a variety of hunting magazines. Using that experience, I know enough to know that all kinds of things could have happened on the hunt but as I wasn't there, I can't comment on who's right or wrong. If you want to know more about my experience you can visit my website. You'll find the address on my profile.

How about you? - Perhaps you could tell us what personal experience you have of Africa, it's hunting and it's hunting industry that makes you so very sure you know who's to blame? Or perhaps you just gazed into your crystal ball to find out what happened...... either way, I'd be very interested to hear!

Regarding your comment about lynch mob mentality, it was pretty controlled until you arrived on the scene and pretty much all you've contributed are efforts to stir it up. I've no idea why.

The one little tidbit that you have never gleaned in your vast experience is that it does NOT matter who is to blame. Mark admidts the hunt was unacceptable.
End of story.
US booking agents are supposed to hold the funds until after the hunt. This is why they get a commission. This is the point of using them and not booking direct. No funds, no leverage.
The rest is just twaddle.
As far as your comments about this thread being "controlled" you have proven my point over and over.
I have little doubt that you will continue on this tact no matter what gets posted or by whome.

I think it all boils down to this. On this one forum we have 6 different people unhappy with their experiences with African Dream Safaris over the last 2 years. Myself, my dad and Test1328 from last year. (We did not hunt together or at the same time) and three people from this year. If you do not think this enough information to stay away and not hunt with Tim Schultz, then that is your choice. I for one will not go back to hunt with him.

PS.Looking for a Sable and 2 leopard hunts in 2009.

You're mistaken about that as well....... there's no rule that says that and of the many, many outfitters I know in a variety of African countries only very few would accept that stipulation. (Even in Zimbabwe). Of the agents I know, very few would even suggest that to the outfitter. Believe me, most agents that tell you that are not being quite accurate. Hell, in some African countries the client isn't allowed out of the country until some or all of the various Government fees are paid.

The reason agents get the commission is because if they don't get it, they introduce the client to someone who will pay the commission. - Simple as that.

Now lets get back to your experience of Africa, it's hunting and it's hunting industry?

Wrong... All the outfits I booked for required their payments be wire transferred well before the hunts or that I deposit monies into their US based accounts. Most would not conduct the safari if not paid at least six weeks prior to the start of the safari.; too much advanced planning and expense is involved for them to take chances of not getting paid.

Some required Full Payment, then paid back my commission After the safari was completed and all fees paid by the clients.

It wasn't worth all the problems and headachs, and things slowed down greatly after 9/11, and I quit the whole thing in 2002, accordingly.

From my perspective, this was a sad thing for the clients. I like and respect Mark, but I don't believe the outfitter had his schidt together and is making excuses. For the pittance that Mark makes on these bookings, it Is Not worth the problems involved with dealing with Majority Ruled Africa...These governments have turned things into a real cluster-bleep!

Hi Mark
Regards Kanak and company, I am highly pissed off with what these guys have posted on the internet. If they had spoken to me before going as far as they have I would have considered some form of compensation towards their hunts, but their reports are damaging.

This PH needs a few lessons in customer service. Seems to me he's acting more like a child than a PH. Talking about this with the booking agent and not the hunters is not how things should go. This is totally unproffesional. I've never been on safari to Africa but thanks to jorge, DPhillips and a few others I am getting the itch to go but reading reports like this make a guy think twice before flopping down his hard earned cash on what could be his 1 time shot to hunt Africa.

I have been trying to quietly observe this thread for it's duration,but have been waiting for it for at least a year and a half.
1)Assuming there is a "jury" ,how are they supposed to deliberate without full disclosure of the facts ?
2)Back about a year and a half ago,I was one of the first 24Hour Campsite members interested in SafariMan's first solicitation for the first hunt.MoccassinJoe1 was another.What brought us together,and eventually sent us on another path,was what we both considered to be SafariMan's very unbusinesslike way of doing business.
He continually failed to answer contacts by email and phone,needed to get my contact info over and over again.
When he finally sent me a contract,NONE of what he promissed was filled in,nor was it even signed....but he wanted me to sign it.....and send him a check.He did send a VERY comprehensive "hold blameless" form which he also wanted me to sign.My eventual partner received the same things.We decided to meet, and go in another direction.
I will not say SafariMan did anything dishonest,don't even intend to intimate that.....but my experience is that his business practices ,at least at that time were very sloppy,and I told him so at the time,after he asked for my contact info. for the fourth time.We had already spoken on the phone two or possibly three times,and emailed back and fourth perhaps five or six times.
I had just told him I would not continue to persue hunting with him,and he was still trying to convince me otherwise.My eventual African hunting partner had an experience that mirrored mine.I had not yet met MoccassinJoe and spoke only for myself.Their contacts were seperate,but Joe basically described to me exactly what I had experienced. SafariMan immediately ceased contact with both of us at that point.
Judging by my experience,I have no doubt that SafariMan had no idea what was actually going on during these two hunts.He constantly has claimed expertise,as an agent, that my experience would lead me to doubt.
We eventually went to another booking agent and our experience was the polar opposite.Unfortunately for the "complainants" in this case,our hunting experience was also the polar opposite.Caveat Emptor.

All I gotta say, across the board on this whole thing, is "damn........"

I'll stand partially corrected because this may well be the case with guys working out of their homes but it's certainly not my understanding of the way the larger outfitters work.
I think most of us would be a whole lot more comfortable if the funds were held in a US escrow account or in any US account until AFTER the hunt. The larger outfits selling hunts obviously have a lot more pull. In either event we are full circle to the fact that both Tim and Mark openly admidt it was a poor hunt. Many of the larger US outfitters warn hunters about booking like this.
Here is just one such warning;

"Use a booking agent that has actually been to the place he or she intends to send you. Also, be certain that they are a full-time professional agent, not someone who books "on the side" or as a way to hunt for free."

IF all the parties are SCI members perhaps that will be yet another avenue to persue with complaint resolution.

Well said, and obviously there is a difference between censorship and voluntarily refraining from posting an opinion. jorge

Personally (and as a Brit! ) I am glad the story came out...Agents, Outfitters and PH's are quick enough to use free advertising on these forums, but don't like it when they receive negative feed back...

How ever you look at this hunt, it was a hunt for PAC ele and the quota for this didn't turn up until the last day of the hunt..

Whatever went wrong is not the Clients fault...The Outfitter and the Agent know things can go wrong and should presumably have contingency plans for when they do...This should both be in the practical sense ie where can I borrow a vehicle if one of ours gets "totaled", to financial, if a refund needs to be paid..

Quite frankly, the clients should be dealing with the Agent, not the outfitter...The Agent took the money, and it up to him to give them a refund..What financial transactions then go on between him and the outfitter is their business and not the clients...

It seems there are a lot of Agents who dabble in the business to the extent they are willing to book hunts and make money, but won't face up to the responsibility when a hunt goes bad through no fault of the Client...

I couldn't agree more with these statements.

Seems a lot has transpired on this thread since I last checked in, but I find it ironic how the fingers of the booking agent and the safari company are pointing at everyone but themselves. Schultz even implies it is the hunter's fault since they didn't mention it while they were in country. I find this really hard to believe. In my case, the PH knew about it immediately when I was not happy and he relayed this information to both Tim and Bianca Schultz. Bianca was involved since she is co-owner and was handling company business and since Tim was often in the field and could not be reached. I personally told Bianca Schultz why I was unhappy. There were no offers of compensation or even apologies. Just more finger pointing back at the booking agent and other people in Zim.

In this current case, based on the emails posted, there seem to be a lot of stories being told here and little truth on the part of African Dream Safaris. Be that as it may, as others here have stated, it matters little what the reasons or stories are on the part of the agent or outfitter. The only thing that matters is if the client is happy or not and if they feel that they have received what has been paid for. Most of the folks who participate here in the Africa forum are relatively experienced hunters and have been clients on enough guided hunts so know things will not always be rosy and that sometimes things happen that are beyond the PH and Safari company's control. I think most of us when faced with these situations, as evidenced by the hunts described in this thread alone, make the best of it and continue on with the hunt without complaint. However, when things are blatantly the fault of misrepresentation, mismanagement, monies not paid, quotas not available, areas not available to hunt, camps not available, etc., these are things that are completely avoidable and that should not happen on a hunt of this magnitude, whether it is a PAC hunt or not. If these things are not taken care of before the hunter arrives, then he/she has not received the services that they are paying, or have paid, for. As has been mentioned, these hunts are not "on the cheap" hunts, with pricing very similar to others offering these types of hunts in Zim, so it is not simply a matter of getting what you pay for.

I'll add one other thing: Obviously trying to take care of this kind of dispute in private does not work. It didn't work for me and it's not working in this case since nothing is being done to make the customer (client) happy. The only thing that is being done is to get everyone's versions and from the emails from Tim, he seems to come up with new ones depending on who he is talking to. So for those that call for this matter to be taken care of privately, you need to buy a clue to see that no resolution between the parties will take place. The responsible parties are offering no resolution. Therefore, the only good that can come of this is that the dispute is brought out in public so that others may be forewarned so as not to fall into the same trap with the same people. It seems to me that this is the only thing trying to be accomplished by Model70guy and I agree and support him in this endevour.

Test

Amen!

I must admit I have had issues other than 24hr upon my mind of late but having the opportunity to do a bit of reading found my old hunting partner an friend, Steve1's post with my screen name in it peeked my interest in this topic.
I will attest that Mark aka Safariman office practices are a tad sloppy. After a few rather long phone conversations with him about the 2007 Campfire buffalo hunt I asked him to send me a detailed contract. What I found in the mail 1 week later was a blank contract of 1 page and a 3 page "Hold Blameless" document with a request for a deposit and my signature. Thankfully I've dealt with enough booking agents and signed enough contracts to see a red herring when presented with one. Steve1 is correct that I suggested we meet and discuss the use of another booking agent (Jim McCarthy of Harrisburg, Pa)whom I've used several times in the past to make hunt arrangements with. We did just that an booked our buffalo trip into the Selous with him rather than Mark. The rest is history suffice to say we had a trip full of fond memories from beginning to end. This Selous trip cost us no more than Mark's Campfire trip was offered for...both were bargain rate an as I see it price surely did not play a part of our excellent adventure.
I did speak with Model70 after the buffalo trip and am a bit perplexed as to why he rebooked thru Mark after what he told me occured on that first trip.
I also think volumes can be read into Mark's suddenly not booking African safaris with anyone at the time. MJ

"I also think volumes can be read into Mark's suddenly not booking African safaris with anyone at the time. MJ"

What you can read into this is that I am still waiting for all info to come in and for other hunters to return from their trips this year to make a final determination regarding which way to go or what to do. No more, no less. I have presented Tims statements so that those who wish to read them and factor them in may do so. I have not asked him for more information as the other data I am collecting is from 3rd party sources in Zimbabwe with no bones to pick but good insight and information. This is all I will say about any of this until I have more info and data at the end of the hunting season. I have considered Mike aka Model 70 guy AND Tim Schultz to be my freinds. It is very difficult to choose sides as each has points of value. This whole thing is quite a mess but as for me right now....Over and out on this topic until after I have collected more info and recon. which will come in after the safari season is over and the 3rd party folks and September and October hunters have time to respond. Nothing for me to do otherwise at the moment. I will see you all at other Africa topics and a few other forums I visit here at 24hrcf. Cheers..... MARK

Mark,

I wonder if you've advised your other hunters of "potential difficulties" with this outfitter or are you going to send them out blind to test the water?

Peter

I have no dog in this fight. This is tragic for the hunters involved and they have a legal right to ask for compensation/damages.

Mark may not be immune to a potential lawsuit. From what someone said, he may be partly responsible and just because he decided to temporarily close his safari booking agency just now may not absolve him of any responsibilities while he was acting as an agent.

Arguably, he still has obligations to his current clients. Further, by not making a "reasonable effort" in contacting the other hunters (his clients), given the facts that he has acknowledged that he is now aware of, he may be opening himself to possible legal damages should they have a similar experience and read this on the internet or find out somehow. Either way, it's morally ethical to at least advise these people of what they may be facing soon. Maybe a real lawyer can make a few statements but this is what may be.

BULLCRAP!

As someone that was considering going on the 2008 hunt I'm glad to see a hunt report. I'd be happier if it had been a positive experience (I'm sure that everyone else would be too), but information is information to be put to use to benefit the person receiving it.

Now to decide on where to go and who to hunt with in 2009.

Mark: I simply stated what facts about you I am aware of unlike some posters to this topic whom have never spoken or dealt with you whom jumped into the melee to stir the pot. You did indeed send me the documents I wrote of an a bit of rummaging around my home office would more than likely turn them up.
To over simplify the matter by stepping back from this mess even for a short furlough will not be to your advantage. But do as you wish it is your business reputation not mine.
For the sake of those patrons of yours whom have yet to make their trip with this operator it would be the decent thing to allow them to opt out just as you have an return their deposits...or are the few dollars you've made off them worth the bad press?

Sometimes a picture says a thousand words.

WHile the situation is not funny and should be resolved amicably by Mark quickly, the attached cartoon is kinda funny and sums up the situation as some people here seem to se it

Just for everyones' information, Shultze's quote regarding Omay, "Omay (where we do most of our hunting) which is one of the
> best areas in Zimbabwe" is a fiction in my opinion and experience. Omay is an overshot, over poached, overpopulated campfir area. However, it would be a good choice for a non-trohy elephant hunt. Relative to other areas I am familiar with, it has fewer buff, poor buff hunting.

JPK

JPK

JPK,
In your experience as a client elephant hunter, where in Zimbabwe should a hunter direct his efforts? I'd like to minimze mistakes like this hunt, since I don't think my enthusiasm could remain intact through many of them.

Wow, what a thread. Feel the need to say (after reading every comment posted):

1. I feel terrible for the hunters!
2. Why would Tim "have considered some form of compensation towards their hunts" if nothing was wrong? That smells very funny to me.
3. It seems to me that a booking agent should shoulder some responsibility for what they book.
4. Everybody has the right to speak an opinion. Agree or disagree if you will. However, personal attacks and antagonism aren't necessary.

This is a question which could take a LONG time to answer, partly because the answer will depend on what it is the prospective client is looking for. The most thrilling hunt, an economical hunt, an economical hunt with some ivory to bring home, ivory first and foremeost...

Since that client is you for the purpose of the answer here, and you booked a non-export bull the first go-round, than I'm going to guess that the experience and thrill of the hunt are what you are most interested in.

If you are not averse to shooting a tuskless cow elephant, I would point you in this direction. Tuskless are available in some of the great safari concessions where there is no one but Parks game scouts, the camp staff and the PH's and hunters in the whole concession. Places like Chewore, Sapi, Nyakasanga, Chete... Generally controlled by first rate outfitters who have renewable five year leases or offered by Parks at auction as two week camps to avoid too much hunting land being held by a few companies.

Lions, buff, elephant and leopard areas, some with more of one than the other, generally not crawling with plains game though there will be some, even a lot in a couple of them.

The tuskless hunt is THE MOST EXCITING ELEPHANT HUNT THERE IS. And tuskless are typically the least expensive elephants to hunt. Non-export only. The trophy is the experience and your video and/or photos too. Not typically the most physically demanding elephant hunt, but it can turn out that way. The hunt is so exciting that it is either a turn off for some or an addiction for others. A great 2x1 hunt for two guys to double their fun, each pursuing a tuskless. (I'm not generally a fan of 2x1 hunts but this is one that would work great for two good buddies to share.) A great multi-elephant opportunity for guys who are better off financially.

Next up in expense would be PAC Bulls or non-export bulls. While cow elephants are damn big, bulls are huge, with some strains just huge. Bulls are typically more shy than cows and less aggressive, though this is not something you can rely on. You can generally approach bulls closer than cows. Ten yards is very close for a tuskless, and it is much easier to close to ten yards with a bull or a small group of bulls. Close is intense. Close is good and satisfying, close is addictive as hell.

The downside to a true PAC hunt is that the hunt will take place in a Campfir area, which will have villages, people and the associated problems, like poaching... The hunt can be physically trying or it can be a walk in the park. Bull elephants move further and faster during the day than cows so they can be trying.

Trophy bull hunts are next up. These range from damned expensive to expensive, based generally on the size of the expected ivory... Here the hunt is a goal but the ivory is the driver. Much more expensive than a PAC bull, probably 2.5x or 3x tuskless hunt. Trophy bull hunting is very similar to PAC hunting, but the end game comes up more infrequently since you will be selective on ivory size where with PAC bulls you will not be so selective.

Trophy bulls are available in many areas in Zim, but expected ivory weigh varries quite a lot.

I'll continue later,

JPK

Shut UP!!!

JPK,
I'm all ears! You are right, my interests lie primarily with the nontrophy bulls, but trophy bulls are feasible. Price-no-object safaris aren't.

Tuskless cows are the most aggressive elephants around. The fact that they are tuskless seems to make them real irritable. I suppose it's a way of compensating in elephant society.

1

I feel sorry for those who had such a terrible hunt. But on the other hand I have read the threads throughout and also have sympathy for safariman. He made the arrangements in good faith based on his previous experience with this PH. Like in all business dealing there are times when what we think will occur just doesn't. From his responses it appears he is making a dilligent effort to correct a wrong. Lets give him some time to sort out what has happened. There are just times when you hunt where there are few animals and all of us that have hunted for any length of time have been in this situation. It is terrible but it happens.

You mean hes going return the monies he took off these gents?



Thats a bit different to sending two guys to Africa on a hunt that can't take place as the quotas have not been sorted and with out mentioning that the ground they thought they were going to hunt is now occupied by the Army; like that happens over night...

Again I don't think safariman did this purposely. He acted in good faith and that on the other end their was problems he was unaware of. It is rediculous to think he would spend that much time on this site about a hunt just to rip a couple of guys off and in the course of doing that trash his reputation. I am sure if he was able to see into the future he would have canceled that hunt in a minute. I just love those who never make mistakes or errors. I always say it takes one to know one.

He may not have done it on purpose, but he knew about the problem for a year--and did not take concrete steps to address the situation. He got his money, and as far as we know still has it, but the hunters that booked this hunt with him are still without any refund. It smelled a year ago, and it still stinks today.

+++++1

Judging by corespondence I'm getting, ZPHGA is still maintaining the postion that all of the NT elephant permits except one were illegal.Not a particularly comfortable position to be in, but worse if you're Schultz.

Thankfully booking agents are a dime a dozen. At times it seems as though everyone whom has made a trip to Africa is looking for a means to return on the cheap, few do it as a sole means of income.
I doubt Mark's return on this particular trip was more than a couple hundred dollars from each client to begin with as he originally set the first trip back in 2007 as a 24HrCampfire group safari at a reduced rate.
That doesn't erase nor excuse not following the best interest of your clients. Had he doubted the operator he should've made the changes in his planning of the group hunt back then. Surely not reused that operator until all bumps were ironed out an defenitely allow clients to make changes in operators even at his cost to cover their butts. Refunding all deposits of clients opting out because of the switch.

I've never made a mistake with a large amount somebody else's money because I don't allow myself to get in that situation. Stuffing up your own hunt is one thing; stuffing up the very expensive hunts of two other people is something else..

Acting in good faith would be to give these two guys a full refund and for him to sort out his own refund with the PH ect behind the scenes..That would also do wonders for his reputation as well...

Acting in good faith would also mean that he would warn his other clients who are going to hunt with the same outfit about this thread and the previous problems..Good faith would also mean giving these clients the option to pullout, switch or carry on, depending what they want...

Any updates?

Well, I'm glad that the poor communications skills by Mark when he tried to sell me this hunt caused me to back away quickly.

Interesting . That makes at least three of us that got the same bad vibes,and backed off.

Make that four!!!!

His silence is deafening! He must have subcontracted to crickets, because that's all I hear right now.

As stated several times before, waiting for more info, and the end of this safari season to have a longer talk with Tim who is pretty maxed out with hunts right now. Got a little more recon this AM. Also as stated before, nothing coming from me until all is known which right now it is not.

Well, what about last years mess? Has there been any resolving of that matter, to the hunters satisfaction or are you still waiting for hunting reports.
I really don't see this going away by no resolve.

Last years 24hrcf hunters all got good to great trophies IIRC, and have recieved their trophies. We had troubles in one of the camps being less than stellar at the outset but this was resolved quickly. One of them re-booked for this years hunt and my nearly all of last years other hunters had great trips, test123 being one of few exceptions. Several from last year have offered to be references for me which, of course, I do not now need. AS stated, more intel coming in. I have a few strings yet to pull for releif and will be doing all I can when the opportunity arises.

I follow the proceedings in Zim, to the extent that I can. This cut and paste of an email I just got may be of particular interest to Mark.

Am on don.heath@xxxxxx for two months.

Logged onto 24hr campfire and see that the discussion is still raging. Haven't time or inclination to join another forum, but you could pass on to Mark "safariman" that I notice that Tim is now blaming him- since the only complaints have come from clients he booked!

You are free to attibute that statement to me on the forum. If mark wants my current contact you can give it to him.

Don Heath

I am not surprised Tim is blaming Mark. Tim can't run a succesful business, so he blames his booking agent for his short comings. Because, I know it was Mark fault we were in the wrong camp last yeat, it was Mark fault the PH was a almost 2 days late. It was Mark fault for the lack of game(even the PH's commented on the lack of game). Shame on Mark!

I know I've aked this before, but can somebody produce pictures of last year's buffalo? I know there was one taken that was injured and hence not of trophy quality, but I'd like to see the stuff from last year's hunts. jorge

Shame on Mark, the PHs he hired, the clients, the camp managers, people who want to be paid, the kids he abandanned when he ran off with his secretary, shame on everybody. It's not his fault you see.I know 6 year-olds with a greater sense of personal responsibility.
Oh well, everything bad that can happen on this hunt has already happened and we lived through it. Schultz' troubles are just beginning.

I'm just curious as to what was resolved, if anything?

What was the update after this hunting season too?

No, nothing was resolved nor do I expect it ever will be.

As much as I hate to tear the wounds open again, those who have been following this thread will probably be interested in this one. This guy has to be stopped.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/931108859

It seems Tim Schultz reputation is proceeding him, but all for the wrong reasons...

Well, they do say that if you give a man enough rope he'll hang himself.

I am not surprised TIM and his Nightmare safaris is being accused of shooting illegal elephants in a National Park. I wonder if he will try to blame Mark for this.

Well, it looks like TIM the owner of African Nighmare Safaris has upset enough hunters, fellow PH's and ZIM officials. This according to ZIM sources. This is very sad for all involved.

Well, Tim has been expelled from the Zimbabwe Association of Professional Hunters & Guides for conduct unbecoming of a PH. The SOAZ question is still awaiting the answer to the awkward question as to where tim got the lion for the hunt that he donated at SCi this year, since he had none on quota and was hunting in an area with none on quota...

Schultz has only seen the beginning. His year is about to get worse, he just doesn't know it yet.

Tapera Chimuti, the Director Scientific Services and Anne Mandaza, the Director Operations have both lost their jobs over these and other permits.

Safariman,
Did you ever hear anything more from Tim regarding these issues? Hunting season is now over.

BTT, [bleep] crooked bastard! Always has been, always will be!

You know, after all these years I thought I was over it; but it turns out I'm still mad.

It takes a lot to suck the fun out of Africa, but there's the guy who can do it.

What a disaster!

Dirty, rotten shame he had to ruin it for so many, myself included. Someday I hope to make it back and to hunt with a quality outfit.

Wow this kinda reads like one of marks classified deals. Better yet he involved another crook in africa. Crooks stick together. Safariman needs to go away.

Just read the whole thing too. Think I'll stick to hunting coyotes...........

I never book with any outfitter unless I can check with at least five references who have hunted with him.

Did safariman ever get any of this resolved? or absolved?

Uber-crickets again.

With no answers and a deliberate avoidance of the questions and threads, you are free to draw your own conclusion as to resolution, intent and (lack of) honesty.

Feel free to use past history as a guide.

From nearly 7 years ago.

From nearly 7 years ago.

The response.



Nothing more here since this on 09/14/08.

Wow, just read this whole thread. What an education on African hunts!

Sorry to all the guys that got skrewed. You were good guys to have reported on that chitshow. You likely saved other 24hr guys from getting the shaft.

Seven years is too long to stay mad. What happened, happened. Heads rolled, jobs were lost, money was lost, trophies were lost, reputations ruined, business(s)were closed, charges laid and much of the fun taken out of Africa.

None of us quit international hunting over it.

Dang, maybe I spoke too soon. I started reading a few posts, and I guess I am still mad. Oh well, it may have been my worst hunt; but its one of my best stories.

Anyway, back to repressing the memory.

Yet you're still pals with Claiborne and willing to gamble on him again? At least, that's his position/account...

And Safariman Mark Claiborne continued to lie, scam, and deceive.

We are still talk once in awhile. When his health issues are in hand I'd hunt with him again. It would be something I set up though; I'm liking Australia more these days and as far as Africa is concerned my interests are far from mainstream now.

One thing I can say; any thoughts I ever had of becoming a booking agent myself were abandoned after that trip.

You NEED to book for Bwana Jim.

How many remember the harrowing accounts from one of Bwana Jim's Discount Safaris??


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9094142/1

The reason we
> had to go to that area was due to the fact that Mark Claiborne did
> not send forward your deposits until just before your hunt, I
> remember Dan e-mailing you regarding this, we even threatened to
> cancel all of Mark's hunts unless we received deposits. Had we
> received your deposits earlier on in the year we could have secured
> animals for you elsewhere. We had originally booked you down to go
> to the Omay (where we do most of our hunting) which is one of the
> best areas in Zimbabwe and received an e-mail from Mark Claiborne
> requesting that his clients are not sent there due to the fact that
> one of his client's not shooting a buffalo in the 7 days that he
> was up there, therefore the change was a result of that as it had
> to be a last minute decision to send you to the Matetsi area. Only
> 2 clients out of 10 who have been sent to the Omay have not taken
> their buffalo.






looks like the main problem with your hunt was above.
someone held on to your money for 6 months and screwed up your hunt before you ever left North America....

well, your Dream Safari guy sucked too, I guess.

You are nuts I wouldnt trust SM with monopoly much less going hunting with him after he ffucked you guys over by holding onto your money for 6 months

More & more schit coming out on Safariman....someone shoulda kicked his teeth in long ago!!

You're either insane or being set up for yet another Claiborne con job (or both). There is no alternative.

My thoughts exactly...

Unless the Agent is going to take full responsibility for what happens on a Hunt, good or bad, I really don't see the point of using them..

If I booked a package holiday through a travel agent and it went pear shaped, you wouldn't expect to chase the airlines or hotel owners to get it sorted, you deal with the Travel Agent only as it is they who recieved your money...

No real need to get insulting is there? Besides, I said hunt with, not book with. He expressed an interest in some oddball Australian stuff I do and can make happen and that's about it.

I wouldn't completely rule out insane though.

Unless the Agent is going to take full responsibility for what happens on a Hunt, good or bad, I really don't see the point of using them..


There probably isn't any point. Getting one to take responsibility for what happens is a nice fantasy, but good luck with that.

Talk to folks that have hunted with him. Schitshow, defined.

Please do ask about the Campfire Pig Hunt that he attended from folks that were there. Check out the "ass shot bear" thread. Another fella that brought his kid up to shoot sage rats that was charged a "premium" for .22s for the kid, and haggled several times over about guns and money. There are plenty more.

I don't have an unlimited ability to stay mad so must conserve it some. What I do have I reserve for Schultz. Its been almost 8 years, we did what we could to spread the word then,and did a fair job of hurting everyone we could hurt. I basically got the investigation of the illegal activities started myself, and its been so long that my contact is dead now. Time to move on, seize onto the few bright spots and remember those. Lessons learned and all that. Bad as it was, we still shot some elephants and buffalo. Could have been worse. Crying with elephants doesn't sting as long as crying without elephants.

Sounds like a "I'm forgiving, but I ain't forgetting". No more mistakes twice?

Something like that. No use crying over spilt milk. Or maybe no use crying about it forever.

One could drown in the amount of 'milk' Claiborne has spilled.

You can drown in it, learn to swim in it, or shake yourself off, notice how on the bright-side that your skin is now silky soft and dive on into the adventure/misadventure and hope it turns out better.

The trouble with adventures is you don't always get the adventure you were looking for. That's sort of the nature of adventures; when they're good it wasn't all good. When its all good it isn't much of an adventure. You just can't let the bad beat you.

Big, huge, difference between not letting it get to you and inviting it along for the ride.

What happened on the hog hunt?