Personally (and as a Brit! ) I am glad the story came out...Agents, Outfitters and PH's are quick enough to use free advertising on these forums, but don't like it when they receive negative feed back...
How ever you look at this hunt, it was a hunt for PAC ele and the quota for this didn't turn up until the last day of the hunt..
Whatever went wrong is not the Clients fault...The Outfitter and the Agent know things can go wrong and should presumably have contingency plans for when they do...This should both be in the practical sense ie where can I borrow a vehicle if one of ours gets "totaled", to financial, if a refund needs to be paid..
Quite frankly, the clients should be dealing with the Agent, not the outfitter...The Agent took the money, and it up to him to give them a refund..What financial transactions then go on between him and the outfitter is their business and not the clients...
It seems there are a lot of Agents who dabble in the business to the extent they are willing to book hunts and make money, but won't face up to the responsibility when a hunt goes bad through no fault of the Client...
I know I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I have hunted in Zimbabwe. The questions that come to my mind are: 1) Why use a booking agent, if he isn't held responsible (either financially or otherwise) when things go wrong?
2) Why, after the hunts that went sour previously with this particular hunting outfit/PH/whatever Tim Shultz is, did the agent continue to book hunts with him?
3) How were the previous hunts with Schultz that went bad addressed by the booking agent? For example, did the booking agent respond positively and work out an mutually acceptable with the previous clients, or were their complaints felled on deaf ears?
I had a wonderful hunt in Zimbabwe with HHK Safaris. It was in a great conservancy, huge tract of wild lands and so much interesting wild game that I was in awe the whole time. My agent held monies and made sure I was satisfied before reaching a "close-out" agreement with the outfitter/PH.
If the booking agent is only a portal to send money to the PH, which I don't believe they are, then why not arrange hunts direct and save the booking agent's fee? I used a booking agent because I knew I had a written contract with him if something went wrong I had legal/financial recourse here in the USA, and someone would be held responsible.
Without someone being liable for a truely f'ed situation, I can see no reason to go through a booking agent... Booking agents make money from outfitters/PHs by handing over clients to them without the outfitter/PH having to mess with the communications and paperwork. However, for the clients paying the premium of using the agent, there should be some responsibility on the part of the agent to insure the client isn't sold a bridge in BFE without delivery. When previous clients start having problems and those are either ignored or otherwise cast aside, any future bookings by the agent seems to be an accomplice in the fraud to future clients.
I couldn't agree more with these statements.
Seems a lot has transpired on this thread since I last checked in, but I find it ironic how the fingers of the booking agent and the safari company are pointing at everyone but themselves. Schultz even implies it is the hunter's fault since they didn't mention it while they were in country. I find this really hard to believe. In my case, the PH knew about it immediately when I was not happy and he relayed this information to both Tim and Bianca Schultz. Bianca was involved since she is co-owner and was handling company business and since Tim was often in the field and could not be reached. I personally told Bianca Schultz why I was unhappy. There were no offers of compensation or even apologies. Just more finger pointing back at the booking agent and other people in Zim.
In this current case, based on the emails posted, there seem to be a lot of stories being told here and little truth on the part of African Dream Safaris. Be that as it may, as others here have stated, it matters little what the reasons or stories are on the part of the agent or outfitter. The only thing that matters is if the client is happy or not and if they feel that they have received what has been paid for. Most of the folks who participate here in the Africa forum are relatively experienced hunters and have been clients on enough guided hunts so know things will not always be rosy and that sometimes things happen that are beyond the PH and Safari company's control. I think most of us when faced with these situations, as evidenced by the hunts described in this thread alone, make the best of it and continue on with the hunt without complaint. However, when things are blatantly the fault of misrepresentation, mismanagement, monies not paid, quotas not available, areas not available to hunt, camps not available, etc., these are things that are completely avoidable and that should not happen on a hunt of this magnitude, whether it is a PAC hunt or not. If these things are not taken care of before the hunter arrives, then he/she has not received the services that they are paying, or have paid, for. As has been mentioned, these hunts are not "on the cheap" hunts, with pricing very similar to others offering these types of hunts in Zim, so it is not simply a matter of getting what you pay for.
I'll add one other thing: Obviously trying to take care of this kind of dispute in private does not work. It didn't work for me and it's not working in this case since nothing is being done to make the customer (client) happy. The only thing that is being done is to get everyone's versions and from the emails from Tim, he seems to come up with new ones depending on who he is talking to. So for those that call for this matter to be taken care of privately, you need to buy a clue to see that no resolution between the parties will take place. The responsible parties are offering no resolution. Therefore, the only good that can come of this is that the dispute is brought out in public so that others may be forewarned so as not to fall into the same trap with the same people. It seems to me that this is the only thing trying to be accomplished by Model70guy and I agree and support him in this endevour.
I have been trying to quietly observe this thread for it's duration,but have been waiting for it for at least a year and a half. 1)Assuming there is a "jury" ,how are they supposed to deliberate without full disclosure of the facts ? 2)Back about a year and a half ago,I was one of the first 24Hour Campsite members interested in SafariMan's first solicitation for the first hunt.MoccassinJoe1 was another.What brought us together,and eventually sent us on another path,was what we both considered to be SafariMan's very unbusinesslike way of doing business. He continually failed to answer contacts by email and phone,needed to get my contact info over and over again. When he finally sent me a contract,NONE of what he promissed was filled in,nor was it even signed....but he wanted me to sign it.....and send him a check.He did send a VERY comprehensive "hold blameless" form which he also wanted me to sign.My eventual partner received the same things.We decided to meet, and go in another direction. I will not say SafariMan did anything dishonest,don't even intend to intimate that.....but my experience is that his business practices ,at least at that time were very sloppy,and I told him so at the time,after he asked for my contact info. for the fourth time.We had already spoken on the phone two or possibly three times,and emailed back and fourth perhaps five or six times. I had just told him I would not continue to persue hunting with him,and he was still trying to convince me otherwise.My eventual African hunting partner had an experience that mirrored mine.I had not yet met MoccassinJoe and spoke only for myself.Their contacts were seperate,but Joe basically described to me exactly what I had experienced. SafariMan immediately ceased contact with both of us at that point. Judging by my experience,I have no doubt that SafariMan had no idea what was actually going on during these two hunts.He constantly has claimed expertise,as an agent, that my experience would lead me to doubt. We eventually went to another booking agent and our experience was the polar opposite.Unfortunately for the "complainants" in this case,our hunting experience was also the polar opposite.Caveat Emptor.
I must admit I have had issues other than 24hr upon my mind of late but having the opportunity to do a bit of reading found my old hunting partner an friend, Steve1's post with my screen name in it peeked my interest in this topic. I will attest that Mark aka Safariman office practices are a tad sloppy. After a few rather long phone conversations with him about the 2007 Campfire buffalo hunt I asked him to send me a detailed contract. What I found in the mail 1 week later was a blank contract of 1 page and a 3 page "Hold Blameless" document with a request for a deposit and my signature. Thankfully I've dealt with enough booking agents and signed enough contracts to see a red herring when presented with one. Steve1 is correct that I suggested we meet and discuss the use of another booking agent (Jim McCarthy of Harrisburg, Pa)whom I've used several times in the past to make hunt arrangements with. We did just that an booked our buffalo trip into the Selous with him rather than Mark. The rest is history suffice to say we had a trip full of fond memories from beginning to end. This Selous trip cost us no more than Mark's Campfire trip was offered for...both were bargain rate an as I see it price surely did not play a part of our excellent adventure. I did speak with Model70 after the buffalo trip and am a bit perplexed as to why he rebooked thru Mark after what he told me occured on that first trip. I also think volumes can be read into Mark's suddenly not booking African safaris with anyone at the time. MJ
"I also think volumes can be read into Mark's suddenly not booking African safaris with anyone at the time. MJ"
What you can read into this is that I am still waiting for all info to come in and for other hunters to return from their trips this year to make a final determination regarding which way to go or what to do. No more, no less. I have presented Tims statements so that those who wish to read them and factor them in may do so. I have not asked him for more information as the other data I am collecting is from 3rd party sources in Zimbabwe with no bones to pick but good insight and information. This is all I will say about any of this until I have more info and data at the end of the hunting season. I have considered Mike aka Model 70 guy AND Tim Schultz to be my freinds. It is very difficult to choose sides as each has points of value. This whole thing is quite a mess but as for me right now....Over and out on this topic until after I have collected more info and recon. which will come in after the safari season is over and the 3rd party folks and September and October hunters have time to respond. Nothing for me to do otherwise at the moment. I will see you all at other Africa topics and a few other forums I visit here at 24hrcf. Cheers..... MARK
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
I wonder if you've advised your other hunters of "potential difficulties" with this outfitter or are you going to send them out blind to test the water?
"I also think volumes can be read into Mark's suddenly not booking African safaris with anyone at the time. MJ"
What you can read into this is that I am still waiting for all info to come in and for other hunters to return from their trips this year to make a final determination regarding which way to go or what to do. No more, no less. ....Over and out on this topic until after I have collected more info and recon. which will come in after the safari season is over and the 3rd party folks and September and October hunters have time to respond. Nothing for me to do otherwise at the moment. I will see you all at other Africa topics and a few other forums I visit here at 24hrcf. Cheers..... MARK
I have no dog in this fight. This is tragic for the hunters involved and they have a legal right to ask for compensation/damages.
Mark may not be immune to a potential lawsuit. From what someone said, he may be partly responsible and just because he decided to temporarily close his safari booking agency just now may not absolve him of any responsibilities while he was acting as an agent.
Arguably, he still has obligations to his current clients. Further, by not making a "reasonable effort" in contacting the other hunters (his clients), given the facts that he has acknowledged that he is now aware of, he may be opening himself to possible legal damages should they have a similar experience and read this on the internet or find out somehow. Either way, it's morally ethical to at least advise these people of what they may be facing soon. Maybe a real lawyer can make a few statements but this is what may be.
As someone that was considering going on the 2008 hunt I'm glad to see a hunt report. I'd be happier if it had been a positive experience (I'm sure that everyone else would be too), but information is information to be put to use to benefit the person receiving it.
Now to decide on where to go and who to hunt with in 2009.
"This duty fell upon me and was the worst job I ever had in my life. I have known men I would rather shoot than the worst of dogs."
Mark: I simply stated what facts about you I am aware of unlike some posters to this topic whom have never spoken or dealt with you whom jumped into the melee to stir the pot. You did indeed send me the documents I wrote of an a bit of rummaging around my home office would more than likely turn them up. To over simplify the matter by stepping back from this mess even for a short furlough will not be to your advantage. But do as you wish it is your business reputation not mine. For the sake of those patrons of yours whom have yet to make their trip with this operator it would be the decent thing to allow them to opt out just as you have an return their deposits...or are the few dollars you've made off them worth the bad press?
WHile the situation is not funny and should be resolved amicably by Mark quickly, the attached cartoon is kinda funny and sums up the situation as some people here seem to se it
Where Schultz is concerned there can be more than 3 sides to a story, he is quite capable of having more than 1 side himself depending on how it suits him. Judge for yourselves which version which version of Schultz' "truth", if any, you care to believe.
----- Original Message ----- From: timbeehushmail.com Date: Friday, August 8, 2008 3:49 am Subject: Hunt
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Mike > > I trust you got back home ok, I believe there were a few issues on > your hunt you were not happy about, I'm surprised you never said > anything before you left. > > Firstly the area you were in only had no quota for non-trophy > elephant, which unfortunately we did not know about. The reason we > had to go to that area was due to the fact that Mark Claiborne did > not send forward your deposits until just before your hunt, I > remember Dan e-mailing you regarding this, we even threatened to > cancel all of Mark's hunts unless we received deposits. Had we > received your deposits earlier on in the year we could have secured > animals for you elsewhere. We had originally booked you down to go > to the Omay (where we do most of our hunting) which is one of the > best areas in Zimbabwe and received an e-mail from Mark Claiborne > requesting that his clients are not sent there due to the fact that > one of his client's not shooting a buffalo in the 7 days that he > was up there, therefore the change was a result of that as it had > to be a last minute decision to send you to the Matetsi area. Only > 2 clients out of 10 who have been sent to the Omay have not taken > their buffalo. > > When we did find out we made some enquiries for non-trophy elephant > and were offered 5 by our National Parks, as you know. National > Parks issued us with the permit for these and will receive their > payment in trade ie equipment that the Parks & Wildlife Authority > need desperately, like landrover parts and fuel for example. This > is happening all over the country as it is a culling management > program and there is nothing illegal as far as I am aware, we do > not conduct business illegally. I am very surpised that Don Heath > does not know about the culling management program. > > I had made arrangements with the camp prior to your arrival, the > camp manager and I did have a fall out, because of his attitude and > not because he kicked us out, I am awaiting an apology letter which > I will forward on to you once received. I have received a verbal > apology but am awaiting the written one. > > As for Dale Strong he was not sent to another area, he left of his > own accord, his PH then took it upon himself to take Dale where he > thought he could hunt, we have not hunted on the property he took > Dale to hunt on for some time due to a small dispute over some > animals which does happen occassionally. Dale's ph did not liaise > or communicate with us much at all and has a lot to answer for. > > I am sorry that you were disappointed with your hunt and wish that > you had discussed this with us and we could have ironed a few > things out. > > Yours in hunting > > Tim Schultz
Tim, It would be an enormous relief to believe the permits are legal, and as long as I'm not going to be charged with anything I'm probably happier leaving that part alone. The permit copy will be appreciated though.
You have done a fair job of outlining our complaints, area change, and lack of permits. We all discussed these issues with our respective PHs daily and have already received the same answers. The trouble is the answers change nothing, we were still in the same area with no quota until in the last day in my case. How would you react if you booked and paid for in advance a North American Elk hunt, were sent to a different area without any notice and didn't have a licence until the last day? At that point no amount of reasons could salvage the hunt. There are some kinds of "broken" that can't be fixed.
The camp manager Shane? Sean? (who I agree is very much an [bleep]) took great delight in telling us nightly that he was going to kick us out soon. This started before you got there, so it was no enormous surprise when we were left packing our bags in the middle of the night. The camp manager also claims that he had no knowledge that we were coming at all. Someone is not telling the truth.
The area may have only been missing permits for non-trophy elephant, but since that was what the 3 hunts were booked for, it's a deal stopper at that point. How hard is it to pick up a phone to find out? It must be somewhat easier than the method we used, which was to fly halfway around the world to learn the same thing.
Dale Strong did ask to be moved, not that he could be blamed for that. He also insisted that all calls made by his PH be made on speaker phone, so has heard plenty on both sides of those conversations.
What goes on between you and Mark is your business. What transpires between you and camp managers is your business. Securing quota for the hunts is your business. Not letting your business become your client's problem is your business. Why should we be happy? Why would you think we would be?
I don't remember telling anyone that we were pleased with the hunt, indeed the opposite was true. Whether a few animals died or not, we didn't get the hunt we were sold. My only recourse may be to help prevent others from making the same mistake. Once everyone has had their say, I'll post the hunt report that 24 hour campfire and Accurate Reloading are expecting. I doubt very much that anyone will be impressed, but needless to say I've been wrong before. Mike Kanak
Just for everyones' information, Shultze's quote regarding Omay, "Omay (where we do most of our hunting) which is one of the > best areas in Zimbabwe" is a fiction in my opinion and experience. Omay is an overshot, over poached, overpopulated campfir area. However, it would be a good choice for a non-trohy elephant hunt. Relative to other areas I am familiar with, it has fewer buff, poor buff hunting.
JPK, In your experience as a client elephant hunter, where in Zimbabwe should a hunter direct his efforts? I'd like to minimze mistakes like this hunt, since I don't think my enthusiasm could remain intact through many of them.
Life begins at 40. Recoil begins at "Over 40" Coincidence? I don't think so.
Wow, what a thread. Feel the need to say (after reading every comment posted):
1. I feel terrible for the hunters! 2. Why would Tim "have considered some form of compensation towards their hunts" if nothing was wrong? That smells very funny to me. 3. It seems to me that a booking agent should shoulder some responsibility for what they book. 4. Everybody has the right to speak an opinion. Agree or disagree if you will. However, personal attacks and antagonism aren't necessary.
JPK, In your experience as a client elephant hunter, where in Zimbabwe should a hunter direct his efforts? I'd like to minimze mistakes like this hunt, since I don't think my enthusiasm could remain intact through many of them.
This is a question which could take a LONG time to answer, partly because the answer will depend on what it is the prospective client is looking for. The most thrilling hunt, an economical hunt, an economical hunt with some ivory to bring home, ivory first and foremeost...
Since that client is you for the purpose of the answer here, and you booked a non-export bull the first go-round, than I'm going to guess that the experience and thrill of the hunt are what you are most interested in.
If you are not averse to shooting a tuskless cow elephant, I would point you in this direction. Tuskless are available in some of the great safari concessions where there is no one but Parks game scouts, the camp staff and the PH's and hunters in the whole concession. Places like Chewore, Sapi, Nyakasanga, Chete... Generally controlled by first rate outfitters who have renewable five year leases or offered by Parks at auction as two week camps to avoid too much hunting land being held by a few companies.
Lions, buff, elephant and leopard areas, some with more of one than the other, generally not crawling with plains game though there will be some, even a lot in a couple of them.
The tuskless hunt is THE MOST EXCITING ELEPHANT HUNT THERE IS. And tuskless are typically the least expensive elephants to hunt. Non-export only. The trophy is the experience and your video and/or photos too. Not typically the most physically demanding elephant hunt, but it can turn out that way. The hunt is so exciting that it is either a turn off for some or an addiction for others. A great 2x1 hunt for two guys to double their fun, each pursuing a tuskless. (I'm not generally a fan of 2x1 hunts but this is one that would work great for two good buddies to share.) A great multi-elephant opportunity for guys who are better off financially.
Next up in expense would be PAC Bulls or non-export bulls. While cow elephants are damn big, bulls are huge, with some strains just huge. Bulls are typically more shy than cows and less aggressive, though this is not something you can rely on. You can generally approach bulls closer than cows. Ten yards is very close for a tuskless, and it is much easier to close to ten yards with a bull or a small group of bulls. Close is intense. Close is good and satisfying, close is addictive as hell.
The downside to a true PAC hunt is that the hunt will take place in a Campfir area, which will have villages, people and the associated problems, like poaching... The hunt can be physically trying or it can be a walk in the park. Bull elephants move further and faster during the day than cows so they can be trying.
Trophy bull hunts are next up. These range from damned expensive to expensive, based generally on the size of the expected ivory... Here the hunt is a goal but the ivory is the driver. Much more expensive than a PAC bull, probably 2.5x or 3x tuskless hunt. Trophy bull hunting is very similar to PAC hunting, but the end game comes up more infrequently since you will be selective on ivory size where with PAC bulls you will not be so selective.
Trophy bulls are available in many areas in Zim, but expected ivory weigh varries quite a lot.
Tuskless cows are the most aggressive elephants around. The fact that they are tuskless seems to make them real irritable. I suppose it's a way of compensating in elephant society.
"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett
I feel sorry for those who had such a terrible hunt. But on the other hand I have read the threads throughout and also have sympathy for safariman. He made the arrangements in good faith based on his previous experience with this PH. Like in all business dealing there are times when what we think will occur just doesn't. From his responses it appears he is making a dilligent effort to correct a wrong. Lets give him some time to sort out what has happened. There are just times when you hunt where there are few animals and all of us that have hunted for any length of time have been in this situation. It is terrible but it happens.
From his responses it appears he is making a dilligent effort to correct a wrong.
You mean hes going return the monies he took off these gents?
Originally Posted by driftwood
There are just times when you hunt where there are few animals and all of us that have hunted for any length of time have been in this situation.
Thats a bit different to sending two guys to Africa on a hunt that can't take place as the quotas have not been sorted and with out mentioning that the ground they thought they were going to hunt is now occupied by the Army; like that happens over night...
) I am glad the story came out...Agents, Outfitters and PH's are quick enough to use free advertising on these forums, but don't like it when they receive negative feed back...![[Linked Image]](http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/Bwnci/welsh-flag-large-anim.gif)
hushmail.com
Really..... 
