I'm getting a new rifle for shooting pretty much everything here in the Western US and I plan on doing a plains game safari soon to RSA and/or Namibia with the same rifle.

I'm very sensitive to recoil (lots of shoulder surgery/reconstructions) and prefer to have rifles that shoot .30-06 class cartridges or less in terms of recoil.

The two cartridges I'm consiering ar the the 7mm-08 and the .308 Win. I'd like to get the 7-08 if for no other reason than it kicks a bit less so I'll shoot it more, and I don't really see much difference in its performance on game compared to the .308.

I'm hoping some old Africa hands can persuade me in one direction or the other, though, for usefulness on the Dark Continent. I'm interested in plains game, the largest of which would be kudu, zebra and wildebeest. I'd think both cartridges whould suffice, but am open to suggestons. What say you all?

And, if both are light, what about a .338 Federal? It would seem a 200 grain, .338 bullet would offer a bit more than both in terms of knockdown power while still being within the outer limits of my recoil tolerance.

.308win is used extensively over there, and so is the 7x57mm, so either choice would do ok..

My only concern would be ammo availability for the 7-08 should you loose your ammo on the trip over...its a small consideration really, and I am sure your PH would advise on the local availability prior to the trip...

.308 is a safe bet all-around. The 7-08 will work fine...unless you run into ammo problems like Pete mentioned, though its never happened to me in half a dozen trips...

Not sure how far and how much carrying of the rifle you'll be doing, however, with your shoulder issues is it possible to up the weight of the rifle (heavy barrel) and add a muzzle brake?

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, I'm pretty deaf in one ear, and I'd kinda like to keep the other one in good working order, so a muzzle break is out of the question.

I am going to be carrying around the rifle here in the states, so I'd like for it to be at least a comfortable weight and a good handler. I'm liking the new M70 FWT very much.

Get a good lime saver recoil pad an forget it.All 3 cal. u said would work fine I have all 3 my pick would be 338 federal then 308

Have you considered the 280 Remington? You can load it down below 7mm-08 or load it up to being on the heels of a 7mm Rem Mag. The 150 gr PT would cover almost everything.

JD338

I have thought about a .280. But every one I've shot feels pretty close to a.30-06 so I figured I might as well go with the .30 cal if I'm going to take that much recoil.

If Winchester made a Model 70 in .338 Federal, my question would be answered.

I'd own one. Very happy with my Ruger in 338 Fed though. FWIW, the 338 Fed doesn't kick bad at all shooting 180s and 185s. That's even considering the relatively hard recoil pad of the Ruger.

I just wouldn't take less than an '06......YMMV

I'm a big fan of the 7mm-08. I have 3, Browning x-bolt, Sako Grey Wolf and the new Win 70 featherweight. All 3 shoot sub MOA @ 100yds with Federal 140gr TSX. I primarily hunt deer and hogs and have been very pleased with the terminal performance with the 140gr TSX in this caliber.

Which do you like best? Why?

I really like all 3. The browning is the lightest and therefore kicks a little harder, nice trigger and accurate. I'm just breaking in the Win 70, beautiful gun with nice balance and the MOA trigger is good OOB, tad heavy for my taste. My favorite though is the Sako 85 grey wolf, slick bolt, trigger breaks like glass at 2 lbs and extremely accurate. I think the Winchester 70 is the nicest looking factory rifle I've owned and this is my first. But, I have been spoiled by my Tikkas and Sakos, Great triggers and slickest bolt action I've ever handled. I haven't owned one yet that wasn't accurate out of the box.

Get the Win M70 Featherweight!

DITTO! I'd take the 308

get the .308......



maddog

I have been using the 308 with 125 gr. ballistic tips for whitetail here in Arkansas with much success. They have very little recoil so would be good for practice and smaller game and then you could go with heavier bullets as needed. I also have a 7mm08 and can see little difference on game. miles

The .308 bullet is about 20% bigger area then the 7mm. That is a significant amount!

The 30/06 and the 308 are not much different in recoil when the gun is fitted to the shooter properly. I've shot several 308's that were hard kickers and a few 30/06's mine especially that you would never guess was a 30/06.

I would not choose a 308 over a 30/06 but I would pick both over the 7mm just for bullet frontal area and the blood trail advantage.

Both are good, but I'd veer towards the 308 for a number of reasons: slightly better suited for larger game, much more common, probably the easiest cartridge to find accurate loads for. As for recoil, the difference is not noticeable with similar bullet weights (140 vs. 150). I'm afraid I don't concur with JJ on the recoil issue, as I own both 308 and 30-06 and the difference is easily noticed - the 308 is more friendly.

... oh, and definitely go for the Win FWT - maybe in stainless, considering where you live.

That is currently at the top of my list, followed closely by the Extreme Weather. Truth be told, the EW probably makes the most sense for me, but I've always loved the FWT and having stainless as an option with it may just tip the scales in its favor.

I still plan on checking out the Ruger All Weather and Sako Grey Wolf (if I can find one) in .338 Federal, too.

I would have to believe that the heavier bullets at similar velocities of the .338 fed would recoil more than a .308 with lighter bullets. Unless there is some magic to the .338 fed - physics will likely bear out. It's easy to feel the difference in 150 gr and 180 gr bullets from a 30-06.

I have the stainless FWT in 308 and use it for just about everything now. It wears a McMillan FWT stock and I've mounted a 2-7 Leupold on it. It's fairly light and handy, much more so than my 30-06's. Highly recommended.

Re: the 338, I don't see the advantage. I think it's a bit much for that little case, and wouldn't offer any significant gain over the 308 in practical use.

Custom 7mm-08 Montana Rifleman action LH in an Accuracy Int stock. 20 in bbl
Talley LW rings Leupold scope.
Whitetail nightmare, finding a load is like tripping over a log. Whats not to like?

I hunted in RSA this past September with my 7x57 and 160 grain Accubonds. I didn't take anything on the large side, though I did shoot two kudu cows for meat. One dropped within 25 yards the other went over the edge of an escarpment and down into the sidehills. Took half a day to to recover it. I had wished for more cartidge for that cow that would have anchored her a bit more securely. My thoughts at the time were I wish I had brought my '06 and 180 grain Nosler partitions. That is still my recommendation today.

For your hunt, I would definately lean towards the 308. You could use 168gr Barnes TSX instead of the 180gr bullets to lighten recoil slightly. I would also caution of getting a rifle too light. Stick to a 8-8.5 lb rifle ready to hunt and the recoil will also be less felt. A good recoil pad is may be called for as well.

Just my opinion, but stay away from lightweight/featherweight rifles if recoil is a concern.

no, this is not true. the 7-08 ammo is common. but have to agree with most take the 308. i hunt with a 308 and a 300H&H. the 308 has never failed me. though i have failed it more than once.

Another option to reduce felt recoil significantly is to figure out what your real LOP should be so the stock fits you, and add a Limbsaver slip on recoil pad over the stock recoil pad (I recommend a decelerator recoil pad as your stock recoil pad by the way). You may have to have a gunsmith shorten the LOP of the stock to make the gun fit you with the Limbsaver slip on installed. My CZ 500 Jeffery was too short for me (I have gorilla arms with 14.5" LOP needed), so slipping the on the Limbsaver recoil pad over my decelerator fixed the LOP problem and significantly reduced felt recoil. Try this with one of your existing rifles even though the LOP will be wrong and see if it reduces the recoil for you. Make sure you buy the 1" thick version.

Here's a link on midway usa

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=755820

Hope this helps,

Chuck

I'm not sure about that but others certainly know more than I do. It would seem a 200gr, .338 cal bullet with the same trajectory as a 165gr, .308 cal bullet has an advantage in both pentration and frontal area. It also arrives at 300 yards packing some 300 ft. lbs. more energy. All rather significant, I'd think, although maybe not to the dead critter.

I liken the .338 Federal vs. .308 Win to the the .338-06 vs. .30-06. The .338-06 gives similar trajectories as the .30-06 but with heavier bullets and more frontal area. Whereas with the '06s you compare the 180gr 30-cal to the 225gr .338 cal, in the smaller cartridges you compare the 165gr 30-cal to the 200 & 210gr .338 cal. All these fly about the same speed and have the same trajectories, but in all instances the larger, heavier bullet has a distinct advantage in enrgy and frontal area smaller rounds simply cannot match. Again, the dead critters may not know the difference, but I think the bigger hole has to account for something.

The .338 Fed's recoil numbers when launching 200 - 210gr bullets are about equal to a .30-06 and 180gr bullets. If you drop down to 180/185gr bullets in the Fed, it starts to feel more like an '06 shooting 165 grainers.

Yup. Less powder in the Fed helps with the recoil a bit. The downrange energy of the -06 and 338 Fed are nearly identical too. 338 Fed has a fatter bullet which I prefer (I figure it can't be a bad thing to create a bigger hole), but there is a penalty in velocity at pretty long ranges, say >450-500yds. If recoil is a really big deal go 7mm-08 or lighter bullets in the 308, if not a that big a deal, consider the 338 Fed (still much less recoil than any magnum).

There is no wrong answer here given the choices...

Big time, and the 338 Federale wouldn't even cross my mind for a trip like this..

Dober

My oldest son used a 30-06 with 165gr. Trophy Bonded Tips in Namibia summer 2009 on Wildebeest, Kudu, and Gemsbok.

I borrowed it to kill my mountain Zebra.

Based on our experience with the ought six, I wouldn't have any qualms toting a .308 for PG loaded with either 165gr. or 180gr. premium bullets.

In fact, that's exactly what I'll be using this summer.

I really am leaning toward either the 7-08 with 140gr TSXs or the .308 Win with 150gr TSXs. I highly doubt one would kill any better than the other, and I do need to consider that the rifle will be used far more for deer around here than it will be for kudu and zebra in Africa.

Truth be told, my choice has more to do with me wanting a new Winchester Model 70 rifle as much as needing a failry mild cartridge in terms of recoil. If the Winny came in .338 Fed, then it would be a tougher choice.

I also need to make a choice on stainless vs. blued or matte. I'd assume my PH would prefer matte or blued but again, I live in Seattle and hunt in the rain and snow so I need to consider that when the purchase is made. Also...synthetic or wood stock? I prefer wood, but sythetic is probably more practical.

Killing is not the issue.......... finding what you shoot is!

I lived in North Bend Wa. for 25 of the last 33 years. All my gun are stainless and I would not consider a blued rifle again. My SS rifles in RSA at our camps have never been a problem. A matte stainless finish is no different then a dry sun bleached grey branch. If it bothers you sent it to Robar and get them coated in Black. I have three this way and it's a far more durable finish then a blued gun. Plus the Action is slicker then anything else made when they are done with it.

I would definitely agree with JJhack. I had a Tikka M695 blued 270 win restocked with a McMillan and Cerakote coated. The action was even slicker than before. Great inclement weather gun!

Ariighty, then. It'll be the venerable .308 Win. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a new SC Model 70, as well.

Now it comes down to the Stainless Featherweight vs. Extreme Weather. I've a darn good notion to get the FWT and have someone replace the Schnabel with a straight ebony tip.

SS,

I've come into this thread very late, but from a practicality viewpoint you can't beat a 308 in Africa.......but the 338 Federal's bullets have a much better frontal area and if you can handle the recoil a 200gr Trophy Bonded Tipped, would be bloody nice out of the 338 FED.

The other thing you could try to cut the recoil is fit a Danuser Counter Coil in the butt.....adds weight and looks ugly, but will cut recoil by 30-40% with no added noise...........

I've never hunted Africa, but I know a fair bit about recoil. Pachmyr Decelerators rock.

NAP = no appreciable difference

+1.



I think that would look pretty weird, there's not enough meat in the forend of a featherweight to do that and make it look good.

How common is the 308win in africa?

When I took my sons they were 11 and 15 and they shared a 308 and it worked great with the 168 TSX. I also brought along 150 gr Win XP3 as we started our shooting on sprigbuck and I wanted to see how it performed. We shot 12 of those up to 400 yards with the Winchester load till a 80 yard shot on Blesbok had a massive bullet failure angleing in to the front shoulder and 1-1/2 hr and 385 yard shot finished that bullet being used on the trip. The 168 TSX did not bring any complaints on recoil and performance was great. Lechwe was largest animal taken with the 308. The 168 TSX is my 308 load period.
If I feel the need for something bigger I go to the 375 H&H with 270 TSX.

I have still old man's dreams of my picture being taken with plains game taken with my Sav 99 lever in .308. Liken to Teddy's pics and Oso's pics with their 1895 Win's. Life is good.

croldfoot

I have one in my safe that is going to be registered to my daughter. It would be great to have her and her rifle on the next trip.

Randy

I've shot a lot of game with the 7x57 and 160 partitions at 2750 fps and it worked flawlessly in Namibia up to kudu. JJHack has a lot of experience with the .308 and obviously it works well. The plains game dies just like our game.

Killing game in the USA or Africa is about the same. It's the recovery that is always the issue. When you take about 2/3 of the game in the last hour of light finding what you shoot before you go back to camp is quite important.

There are a lot of hungry meat eaters living in Africa. Most are not picky about where they start to chew, and most worry something bigger is coming right behind them. So they rip away what they can and scurry off to devour it. Then sneak back in to rip off another chunk.

Certainly that animal was dead from whatever your choice of cartridge, from .223 on up. Dead is dead, but the evidence trail that is left for you to locate that dead critter is another story! Not many herd animals you shoot in the USA, and fewer yet that live in dusty conditions that will settle over every drop of blood.

When 30-50 animals spook and run at the shot there are thousands of tracks but only one set was left by the punctured animal. Now try and find that set and the blood that identifies which way it went through the bush and where it lays dead.

It's gonna be several hundred to several thousand bucks when you pull that trigger and hit something. Whether or not you find it is not relevant. You are paying for it. This is not catch and release fishing to see how big a fish you can land on light line.

There is nothing wrong with with a calling your good shot and a quick kill using a smaller gun. However it's my experience most shots will be quick and quartering away in low light leaving some level of possible error. Passing those shots leaves you with far lower opportunity.

I've taken out lots of sub 30 caliber hunters. We have also had plenty of hunters with larger then 30 caliber. It's not my own single opinion on this, it's well accepted that more game is lost by smaller calibers then larger. That line in the sand has to be made somewhere right?

The 375HH is minimum for DG, some folks argue it and some know better then this? It is nevertheless where the experts over decades of experience have settled at for this "line in the sand". Much can be said for the 30 caliber diameter for blood trails. There must be a base line or minimum for acceptable blood. Where do we suggest that falls? It's clear to us and most everyone else in Southern Africa that 30 caliber is that level.

It's nearly 20% bigger then the 7mm, put another way if you think 20% is nothing to sneeze at....... want a 20% pay cut? would like 20% more MPG? Would you like a 20% pay raise? Would you like to be 20% richer? Would you like a 20% discount on your next safari?

20% is a lot to consider, 1/5th bigger!

Wouldn't a .338-cal be even better?

Blood trails are about diameter not velocity. You only need enough velocity to penetrate them, after that it's about the blood flow. Anything bigger diameter then .308 gets exponentially better the bigger you go!

Sounds like a .338-06 running 185gr TSXs would be about right.

Jim do you remember when Cyril shot the impala and it wasn't found until the next day?

Roger my point exactly, this is what is found when you have no blood trail right before dark.

You know me, you've spent a lot of time hunting with me. You know I have no agenda other then helping people the best I can. There are not a lot of things worse then the guy who has not recovered an animal before dark around the campfire that night. He is brooding over the loss, uncertain of the outcome, and everybody else is laughing and having a great time. The poor bugger that has not recovered his animal is drowning his sorrows and will have a sleepless night.

But as you point out in this photo. That could be your 60" kudu, your zebra skin, or whatever. Its a loss many times when you find it, and we were darn lucky to find this impala anyway. Not much more to have had a hyena pack away the whole thing!

Isn't the percentage relative to size though? 20% of a dollar isn't much, but 20% of a million is. The difference between .308" and .284" is .024". That doesn't seem like much to me nor a deal breaker and seems like it'd be more dependent on bullets or cartridge. While math has never been my strong point, I don't believe .024" is 20% larger. If I'm correct, .308" would be slightly more than 20% larger than .243/6mm or am I missing something here?

I used a CZ .308W on my first hunt in South Africa loaded with Woodleigh 165 PPSN's. It performed flawlessly on Plains Game including Zebra, Gemsbok and Blue Wildebeast. I am taking a 7x57 on my third trip (Botswana).

If you are not going to consider the mild recoiling 7x57 then either the .308W or 7-08 will do the job. I would recommend the 154grain 7mm or 165grain .308 projectiles.

Try to arrange shooting both back to back and make your own conclusions.

The difference between .284 and .308 caliber is 7.8%

The difference between .284 and .308 caliber measured in frontal area is more than 7.8%. The 308 is almost 18% larger than 284.

Comparing frontal area of the 7mm bullet and a 30 cal bullet is silly.

First, starting diameter is irrelevant when you use expanding bullets.

Second, the expansion of those bullets on game is inconsistent (being dependent on velocity at impact, animal hide thickness, bone vs muscle vs lung...). So how can you say one is better than the other when the after diameter expansion may or may not be larger than the other?

Real world hunting performance between the two is identical. Anecdotal evidence is helpful, but certainly not gospel. For every .308 is the debil story, there is a 308 saved the day story. Same for the 7mm-08. The fact that there is so much discussion about which is best with no clear choice tells me there is no real difference.


The 7mm-08 is the modern 7X57 if that makes you feel any better.

Personally, I would get a good donor rifle rebarreled to 7X57 and load it with 160ish grain bullets and call it a day.

Silly to you, Witness 2-3 thousand big animals killed by every cartridge available, and get back to me on that. When we take 120-180 big game per season with our hunters the numbers and the resolution to what really works add up quick. This is not counting the culling of so many smaller "big game" like springbok and impala.

It's always the call of the hunter, certainly I'm not going to enforce something that is not the law. I'm just pointing out the experience we all share with the numbers of game taken here. Your experience may differ and thats fine we all come here to share. I have no dog in the fight. I don't get a commission for .308 diameter ammo!

Frontal area is a big deal with the entry, no bullet is fully expanded at the instant of impact, that happens almost entirely internal. Without an exit hole all you have is bullet size entry puncture. Again Seeing 1000's of entry wounds helps with this kind of opinion and the huge resolution. This gives me great confidence in my opinion here.

I did not dream this up one day and decide to post this as a joke to con unsuspecting sportsmen!

JJ, it is silly.

Lets look at just the entry wound.

Skin is very elastic. What happens if it is hit when it is tensed vs relaxed? Is the entry wound static or is there temporary expansion? Is the skin overlying tense muscle, bone (rib), fat, or thin muscle/lung (air)?

I dont doubt your experience, but I do know how certain events stand out and bias future observations. Kinda like when buying a new car or truck. If you drive a Ford, you never really notice how many Tacomas are on the road until you start shopping for one and then they are everywhere. In a similar fashion, having bad 7mm-08 experiences back to back can bias future opinions.

With the innumerable variables when it comes to killing game, placing all your eggs is in a basket labeled 0.24" is a bit silly.

Like you, I don't have any financial interest in 7mm bullets either!

duckear,

I think JJHack is talking about percentages. If you look at a graph of the size of entrance and exit wounds with a 7mm and overlay a graph of the size of the entrance and exit wounds with .308" bullets, there will probably be some overlap in the two bell curves (assumes a large number of samples), but the median with the .308" bullet will be larger than the median with the 7mm bullet, given comparable impact velocity and bullet construction.

Probably 80 to 90% of the time (maybe even more than 90% of the time) it would not matter whether you were using a 7x57 vs. a .308 Win. That other 2% or 5% or 10% of the time is what JJ seems to be focused on. When you see hundreds of animals shot a year, I'm sure the 5% (or whatever it is) adds up to a sizeable number. People have to decide for themselves how they like the odds they are going to play.

How is .308" 18% larger than .284"? Seems to me terminal effect would be more dependent on the bullet rather than the .024" difference in frontal area.

In the past I had a 7mm-08, 308, 338 Federal and 358 win.

The one I miss the most is the 7mm-08, with a good recoil pad it was easy to shoot even being a very light 700 Ti.

M1Garand,

area of a circle is pi divided by four times the diameter squared or A = pi/4*(D*D)

Some people think the cross sectional area (total volume) of the hole matters more and some people think the surface area (circumference) of the hole matters more than the volume. The total volume of the hole is dependent on the frontal area of the bullet (which is based on diameter squared) while the surface area of the hole is based on just the circumference of the bullet (which is pi times diameter). I think both matter, but I'm not a terminal ballistics expert.

How was the .338 Federal on game? I'v heard very good reports on its "killing ability vs. recoil" performance.

I'm very seriousl considering getting a 7mm-08 for most hunting and a .338 Federal for heavier game like elk and Africa. I think they may represent a very good combo for someone with a shoulder injury like me.

I bought a Browning 338 cal. BAR 10 years ago and love it. I have taken two Bears,one elk, &several deer. The recoil is similar to a 270 mostly because the BAR is a semi auto rather than a bolt action. The accuracy is great out to 400 yards.The only drawback is my Bar has a muzzlebreak and the noise when fired is deafening. Wear hearing protection.

That just dawned on me it was the area of circle, not what I was thinking, thanks for the clarification RR.

Just saw a vid of a guy dropping a Kudu with a 7.08 propelling a 165 gr.TSX load. Go with what you can shoot with confidence and enjoy yourselves.

This coming from me after 4 months of mulling it over is a big boy step.

You sure about that? Sounds like a .308 size bullet. Most folks shoot either 120gr or 140gr TSXs out of the 7mm-08.

My bad and excuse me. It was a 140gr.

Lets see if this works another way.

If the .308 diameter is no better then the .284 then is the .338 no better then the .308? Anyone who has used a .338/06 knows without question it's killing power and follow up functionality is by a wide margin better then the .308 diameter. Same as the .375 is better then the .338....... or the .458 better then the 375! The 375HH is really exceptional at providing blood, although there are times it also falls short, it's the exception rather then the rule. The cartridges bigger then 375 usually have a blood trail you can follow at a walk, and they open game up so you're following blood and chunks as you go.

If the 284 is close enough to the .308 then certainly the .277 is as good as the .284, and then the .250 must be as good as the .277.....Hmmm then a good .243 must be as good as that .250 right? It only stands to reason that a .223 must be as good as the .243! What the heck might as well use a .22long rifle no recoil at all!

Where does the line in the sand get drawn? At some point there is a diameter that provides better or more consistent blood. What would you suggest this diameter is? At no point have I said or even suggested that the 7mm is a worthless choice that is not going to kill a bunny. In my work I have to search for game every week during the season. Maybe 20 times a week, or more! nearly every animal shot runs off. Rarely do they fall in the sight of the hunter. Imagine how many hours are spent wondering where this perforated critter has gone. Is he laying dead, or facing your direction horns pointed at you waiting to clear the next bush?

Imagine how many times the hunter asks, which way did he go? do you see blood? do you know which tracks are his? Should we go back and get more people to help us look? do you have a dog we can use? When these questions come up every week, many times a week, and you hear this over and over, the pressure to find game is significant. It would be so much easier with a bigger HOLE........ this is a simple undeniable truth.

All I have said is that over decades of experience with a lot of hunters, rifles, cartridges, and bullets. The .308 diameter begins to have a higher percentage of quicker recoveries then those smaller. I could say the same about the 338 or 375 being much faster to recover game then the .308. That is a fact, but was not the original question.

One of the more complicated parts of these conversations is that everyone posting is an expert shot that never misses, wounds, or loses any game. Where are all these guys in my hunting camps? We search hours for game every single week, I cannot recall a single 10 day hunt in my life that we did not scratch our heads wondering where the animal went, or struggle to locate at least one animal for some time. Diameter does not matter when everyone is an expert that takes only the perfect shot in open country. I don't know that world, it's not the one I live in!

JJHack,

Would you say that the benefits of jumping to say 33/35 caliber over a 30 are just as pronounced as going from 28 to 30?

Or, is there a minimum "blood trail" threshold to reach, and once there, it does not matter so much about getting bigger?



BTW--the name of that world is "Internet." It's atmosphere is "cyberspace."

Just a couple of the many head of African plains game that fell to Darrel Holland's 7-08AI, Nosler 140NBT back around 2002. The whole story was written up in the VHA magazine:


The 7-08 is no different ballistic wise than the famed 7x57 or 275 Rigby which earned its reputation on the vast game fields of old Africa and respected by the likes of Ted Roosevelt, Finn Aagaard, Jack and Elanor O'Conner.

Finn Aagaard's son wrote of his father back in 2000: "He once wrote an article, complete with pictures of a dissected goat, showing all the vital organs in the body cavity to demonstrate proper bullet placement. In his mind, this was far more important than gun caliber."

MtnHtr

My cousin used a 7x57 for plainsgame and was very happy. Using 160 gr. NP at moderate 2550 fps, took everything up to kudu, wildebeest without problems.

Animals there are tougher than deer, or even elk. Suck it up and take something 30-06 or hotter that you can shoot 200 or 220 gr. bullets out of. I don't think the recoils is much different than 7mm. I think the perfect rifle is the 300 winmag. Wounding or losing stuff on your safari is painful( I've done it). More power=better.

Good luck.

GDOG

GDOG,

In a word: baloney. African animals are not all equally tough, and even the toughest aren't any harder to bring down than the toughest North American animals of equal size.

Amen JB!

GDOG,

More power does not = better. More shooting ability=better. All animals are tough the world over, if you don't put a bullet in the vitals.

Jeff

From Finn Aagaard on cartridges for Africa.

Having killed Wildebeast and Zebra, I respectfully disagree that they are not "hardier" than Elk or any NA deer.

-GDOG

Why use the very minimum? Get a .30-06 and be done with it.

George,

Please tell us how many of each you've taken: elk, zebra, wildebeest.

The also explain how you've lost wounded game in Africa. Was it because you were using a .30-06, which "only wounded" something, instead of a .300 Winchester, which would have done the job?

Before you answr, you might like to know that my wife has taken trophy zebra and blue wildebeest quite neatly with the .308 Winchester and .30-06, along with a bunch of other super-tough African game including gemsbok.

Dude, get your math right.

Area of a circle is pi TIMES the radius squared.

Area of a .284 bullet is 3.1415 x .01183 ft x .01183 ft = .00044 square feet

Area of a .308 bullet is 3.1415 x .01283 ft x .01283 ft = .000517 square feet

.308 bullet has 1.175 times the area of a .284 bullet....

Joel Slate 7RM In Africa

Boddington - Sensible Sevens

None of the above have issues with 7s in Africa. I've known lots of folks who have used various 7s in Africa on plains game and they had no complaints.

MtnHtr

I want to bring up one aspect of bullet construction that I have not read much about, and have not noticed during the discussion so far on this topic.

The Europeans designed bullets such as the RWS Torpedo Ideal Geschoss ( ID Classic) and the Sellier & Bellot Cutted Edge that have a sharp shoulder to cut full diameter holes in the impact side hides of game animals. Most common hunting bullets do not have this "feature" but it may be significant.

I suspect that if blood trails are the goal, wide blunt nose bullets, or those with a distinct "cutting" edge will provide a entry hole in the elastic hide that will be much wider and clearer than that made by a smoother spitzer. It may even make up the difference of 20% in "surface area" that is being argued here. A bullet with a blunt point or cutting edge might leave a better blood trail from the entry wound than a larger diameter bullet with a sharp & smooth tapered point.

I have used .30 - .35 caliber round nose bullets, and 7mm bullets by RWS and S&B just enough to think there is some merit to the concept. The dozen or so animals I have taken with such bullets have provided good blood trails and clear entry wounds.

I also like 7mm bullets for their great sectional density and killing effect on game combined with low recoil and "shoot - ability".

More experienced hunters please comment!

Interesting thought castnblast. While not more experienced, I may be able to comment on such bullet construction's effect on game in a few months. I've got some A Square Dead Tough softpoints for my 9.3x74R drilling, which have a shape kind of like you're talking about. They have a very blunt nose, followed by a parallel sub bore diameter nose that terminates in a very sharp shoulder to full diameter. they cut holes in the target/backing similar to what you'd see made by a wadcutter. Very different from the holes made by the Hornady spire points I was also shooting. Hope to see what they do on RSA plains game in late April! I don't expect any revolutionary performance, I'm just curious, and want to try a different bullet.

Hopefully, someone on the fire has tried this style of bullet on game, and will chime in.

Jeff

My math is right. The area of a circle is pi divided by four times the diameter squared (D * D). You can calculate the area of a circle with either the radius or the diameter (after all they are always related by a constant factor of 2) - it doesn't matter as long as you divide by four when you use diameter, as I showed. You either divide the diameter by two to obtain the radius before you square the dimension or you divide by 2 squared (i.e., 4) after you square the dimension. I've calculated the area of a circle more times than probably 99% of the population, and I've found it simpler to use the (pi/4) * D^2 approach when the data lists diameter instead of radius, as it usually does for my uses.

So, back to my question... would a blunt nose or cutting edge bullet design make up the difference in entry hole diameter when comparing a .284 ( 7mm) cutting edge bullet and a .308 (7.62mm) diameter spitzer bullet even though the spitzer is larger in area? I suspect it does!

Bullet design and velocity are what kill, bleed, drop, and make holes in animals. Not the caliber difference between 7mm and .30. MOST factory loaded 7mm bullets have been of soft point nature for decades. It has only been the last 5 years or so that any ammo makers have put stout bullets in any of the 7mm calibers. Most of the factory loads wouldn't penetrate an elk fully. The bullets were always of 140 grain or 160 grain soft point design (very soft points). Soft point bullets at 3,100+ fps simply don't exit, hence, no blood trails. I would bet my left nut that 95% of the "poor performance" JJ has experienced over the years and why he is so down on anything under .30 caliber is due to the wrong bullet choice, not the caliber. The silly notion that 20% difference in frontal area makes or breaks the tracking job, due to a 20% smaller entrance hole between .284 and .308 is pure hogwash in my experience. Been there done that MANY times. What the bullet does on impact and exit is what makes the blood trail, not the diameter it left the barrel at. Premium bullets in the 7mm's now make it perform with good entrance and exit holes. I have killed many truck loads of deer and elk with .30's and 7mm's. The bullet construction has MUCH MUCH MUCH more to do with the entrance and exit holes sizes than the "caliber". The tissue, muscle or bone that is contacted on entrance has as much to do with the the hole size as anything. This is a silly argument. Put good pullets in any medium bore and go hunting in Africa, Alaska or your back yard. Flinch

I happen to agree with JJHACK. The man has seen thousands of animals shot and tracked. Where "exactly" does the line get drawn? If there is no difference in entry and exit holes with the 308 versus the 284 bore size, then there must not be any difference in the 284 versus 264 and 257 bores---right? So, that means we can also assume that the 257 bores make no bigger holes than .223 bores---right?

So lets all get a 223 and run off to Africa.

Don't tempt me....

Last time i went the only rifle I took was a .22-250...

Flinch I agree with you on the 7mm's in general but very good 7mm bullets have been available a lot longer than the last 5 years.....I mean even the first X bullets have been around since(when?) the 90's?The Swift Aframe and TBBC also date back to the 80's and early 90's. These are all very capable 7mm slugs.

There have been others that had a fine reputation even back to the 50's;maybe not as numerous as today but they were certainly there..

Pick up a copy of Hagel's "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter".This will tell you more.

Premium bullets were available to a point, but VERY hard to get in reloading form, let alone factory ammo (in 7mm mag or 7mm-08). Good factory premium ammo was as scarce as an honest politician 5-7 years ago. The Barnes bullets sucked pretty bad 5-6 years ago (pre XLC era). I know, I tried a bunch of them. The TBBC were horribly inaccurate along with the Swift bullets, but performed well if you could hit what you shot at. Both were REALLY hard to get and were generally $2+ a bullet, If you could find them, I know, I tried. Most guys simply grabbed whatever was available in 7mm and went to Africa, with very poor results. My buddy took 10 boxes of 7mm magnum 160 grain Federal TBBC to Africa 6 years ago. He experienced FLAWLESS performance on everything he clobbered, big and small. He killed over 30 critters from duiker to kudu. His PH was NOT a 7mm fan at all and wanted him to bring a different caliber. The 7mm magnum was all he had and he was comfortable with it. The PH had a lot of really bad experiences with run of the mill 7mm bullets clients brought out, just like JJ experienced. He was so tickled with the performance of the TBBC bullets after my buddy finished his safari, that he was going to recommend them to his 7mm clients from then on out. Things have changed dramatically in the 7mm in the last 6-7 years. Flinch

A taxidermist and daughter I know used his Ruger 77 in 7RM on a full range of African plains game about 8-9yrs ago, all he used was Federal factory ammo loaded with 160grNPTs. (I've posted pictures of some of his African kills in the past on a similar 7mm bashing thread on here). His PH was very impressed especially the way the daughter could shoot the 7RM.

I know for fact the 160grNPT is one penetrating SOB, I've put 'em thru elk and huge black bears with exits. And the 140grNPT in the 7-08 seems to have the same trait, it would work perfectly on African game.

As for African game tenacity or toughness, Mule Deer wrote a nice article recently on the subject.

I still grin when someone labeled the 7RM as the "hit 'em again 7", apparently they've been reading too many books or don't know good shot placement. Or feel the crowd here is easily fooled.

MtnHtr

I've killed kudu, gemsbuck, hartebeest etc with the 7x57 and 160 partitions at 2750 fps. No problems with them, the 7-08 would be pretty much more of the same.

MtnHtr, I never heard anyone say "hittem again seven", that is funny. I am sure there must be others for cartridges people have a grudge against.

Yep. Loaded with 140gr TSX at about the same velocity, the 7mm-08 should penetrate and kill every bit as well.

Had a friend kill his last minute Kudu (last couple hours remaining on the very last hunting day) with a 7mm-08 stocked with 140gr. Accubonds.

I had to borrow my PH's 7mm Rem Mag a couple years ago in Namibia, as I had forgot my ammo back in camp (thought it was in my day bag!). Again, 140gr. Accubond which had no trouble dumping two Gemsbok in the dirt.

My youngest boy is going to give the 7x57mm Mauser with 175gr. NP a whirl this summer.

I've just revisited this and seen all the posts about the differences in frontal dia of 7mm and .308 projectiles. I know it is winter in the USA but you guys need to get out more into the fresh air.

A 7mm through the top of the heart will kill the animal just as effectively as a .308 projectile into the heart.

Our original poster needs a low recoiling plains game rifle. The 7x57 is it and despite all the calculations and numbers, the perceived recoil in a full sized rifle like a CZ or Zastava will be less than a .308.

If one handloads, one can get the best of both worlds with the .308 - the recoil of a 7x57 with the larger .308" bullet. With roughly the same bullet weight and same muzzle velocity out of identical guns, a .308 Win will have roughly the same recoil as a 7x57.

Take your pick and use premium bullets. I killed a Gemsbok last month. .308 with 165 SGK's. No exit, no blood trail. I put 4 into the shoulder thru the heart and lungs. I didn't need to put 4 into him, but I didn't want to track him either.

Either should be fine. Make sure you go with a premium bullet.

Dave

I agree with the first part of your post and that makes an excellent compromise. I however owned a heavier .308W than the current 7x57 I use and recoil for me is substantially lower with the 7x57. I don't pretend to know why, I can only guess the case design and less powder makes a difference.

I would guess the difference in felt recoil is probably related to the stocks (designs and materials) on the two different rifles. The .308 Win case is smaller than the 7x57 case (as shown by the difference in case capacity between the .243 Win and the 6mm Remington, which are based on the .308 Win and 7x57 cases, respectively); therefore, the .308 Win should require less powder to achieve the same velocity for a given bullet weight; thus, the .308 Win should theoretically recoil ever so slightly less, all else being equal.

You can always re-barrel a Model 70 to .338 Federal pretty reasonably.

Either of those cartridges will work fine for everything with good bullets and shot placement. I've used a .308 to take hundreds of head of African game, including lots of kudu and wildebeest as well as a few eland and zebra with excellent results. My son has used his .260 with 120-grain TSXs on kudu, wildebeest, zebra, and nyala with absolutely devastating results. This year, he'll use it on eland and, hopefully, leopard. I have no reservations about it because he shoots well and I know the bullet will reach the vitals when it gets there.

You sold me, Greg. Bought myself an absolutely spectacular Model 700 build in .260 that shoots 120gr TSXs into ridiculously small groups.

Should be a nice solution for the critters in question and a guy with eight bolts and a screw in his shooting shoulder.

You'll love it. I've had lots of folks doubt me over the years, but the ones who bought .260s for their wives or kids for Africa have always been amazed at the results.

When it gets right down to it, it's all shot placement and bullet construction. Last season, a buddy in the industry who was hunting with me and my son in South Africa had to shoot a black wildebeest 9 times with a .300 WBY loaded with the 180-grain TSX. He went on and on at diner about how tough they were and how my son wouldn't be able to kill one, how he should way until he could shoot a bigger gun, etc., etc. The next morning, my son and I made a 600 yard belly crawl to get to 205 yards or so of a huge bull. It was quartering towards us and getting more suspicious by the second, so I told Cole to shoot if he was steady. An instant later, he smacked the wildebeest on the point of the near shoulder. The bull ran hard for about 80 yards and then fell over stone dead. The bullet drove through the shoulder, the chest cavity, and a bunch of stomach before exiting the off side - not bad for a sissy gun.

RR, I owe you an apology. You are correct! Although I find it simpler to use the radius method. Must be the Civil in me...

I love the 7-08.
Since 1980's I had shot a 270 BAR. Used to love it, still like.

I bought my 5'3 120 pound wife a Savage 16SS 7-08 around 1999. Bought my 9 year old son a Remington Youth 7-08 same time. Three years later, got my 8 year old daughter a very nice Ruger Compact 7-08.
Wife has killed probably 15 deer with hers.
Daughter has killed at least that many and once killed 2 in one shot (by mistake).
Son killed quite a few with his.

When Matt turned 16, though, he wanted "a man's gun" (his words). He wanted my BAR. My wife was willing to use his youth model because of weight. So I ended up with my wife's Savage stainless.
Let me tell you, it's the sweetest rifle I've ever shot in my life!! I am much more accurate with it than anything and have the ultimate confidence in it. I've been shooting it for about 5 years now. I've shot 10 whitetail bucks with it and almost all fell immediately. Farthest "run" was 20 yards. A 190 pound 12 point fell in his tracks at 130 yards.

My wife and I plan to travel to Africa in 2012.
I plan to give her 7-08 back to my 21 yr old son, since it is his, and buy her another for her own. She wants a Savage Youth SS in a 7-08. I'll likely never use anything else for whitetails.

Kudos to the 7-08 for whitetails!!

I'll start a different thread to ask some questions about our 2012 Africa hunt and rifle choices.

I'm real late adding comments to this thread. I'm going to RSA on PG in early May for two weeks. I'm taking SAKO A7 stainless in 308 Win and TIKKA 270. The 308 shoots SMOA with Federal 165gr TSX and the 270 with 150gr Horn handloads. Both with Leupold scopes. On the menu is Kudu, blue Wildebeast, zebra, impala, warthog and possibly blesbuck.

Personally I think both are a little small for those plains game that reach weights over 300-lbs. Yes, that's my humble opinion! I have seen Impala run for over 175 yards with both lungs taken out, those African plans game seldom go bang flop.

I favor the .338 calibers or the .358 calibers for such animals. Also the 30-06 with a 200 grain bullety, why even the .444 Marlin makes a good choice in the brushveld area as your average shot is only 60 to 75 yards.

I would also change my tune about hunting any Leopard with a .260 caliber rifle.........plan nuts!

A 260 for a leopard is well more than sufficient for a quick kill on a leopard.

You are mistaken about how to calculate the area of a circle. According to your formula the surface area shrinks as the diameter increases.

The correct formula is A = pi * d * d / 4.

Isn't the 7.62X51 problematic in some African countries because it's a military cartridge?

The area of a circle is: Pi (3.1416) times Radius squared. Radius is Diameter/2.
Radius of a .284 in. circle is: .142. Squared, is .020164. Times pi, = .06334722 square in.
For .308 diameter circle, radius is .154. Squared, is .023716. Times pi, = .07450619 square in.
The area of the .284 circle, divided by the area of the area of the .308 circle, is: 0.85.

Both rifles are adequate for the game chosen.Which of the 2 can you shoot most accurately? Choose it and the heaviest bullet your rifle will shoot accurately. Trophy bonded Bear claws are a very good choice. Keep scopes down to something like 1.5 to 5x Leupold Gold ring. Your shooting distance shouldn't be more than 150m! If your PH suggests longer shots tell him to work harder at getting you closer!

"If your PH suggests longer shots tell him to work harder at getting you closer!"

Who's hunting the visiting sportsman, or the PH? Not saying that 150m is a problem distance, most shots are under that. However it's the visiting hunters skills that are the functional limitation of the event, whether it be stalking or marksmanship.

These cartridges are so close in performance that you would have to kill a considerable amount of game and average out the results to split the hair adequately and present the findings with the determined degree of bias.

The bullet you choose and where you place it will matter far more that the dfference between these two cartridges which are just hulls.

John

I love it when gearheads get together a split hairs over what amounts to ballistic twins. I have a 7-08 and shoot it with a shoulder pad harness that I can slip on or off. (Past Recoil Shield) It is once again a joy to shoot a deer rifle. I have no experience with the .308, but how different can it be?

Plug my formula into a spreadsheet and plug your formula into a spreadsheet, and you will see that you get the same answer. The mathematical order of operations treats multiplication and division as equivalent in order of operation (one doesn't have precedent over the other); thus pi/4*(D*D) = (D*D)*pi/4 = pi*(D*D)/4 = (D*D)/4*pi. If the parentheses encompassed the 4 and both Ds (4*D*D), the formula would be incorrect, but the formula is correct in the form I typed it.

Do I need to know all that to get into Africa??

No, but after I answered someone's question about what the formula was for area of a circle (with the correct formula), two different posters have tried to say there was some error where there wasn't one.

I can't think of any reason to think about the formula for area of a circle on a hunt in Africa as long as the hole at the end of your barrel is large enough for the game hunted.

And the 7mm has been used for years.

And the .308 has been used for years.
But you are correct pi x radius x radius is the same as
pi x diameter/2 x diameter/2 or
pi x dia x dia /4 all of which give the area of the bullet cross section at calibre.

The area changes in sqare proportion to the change of the diameter. Simply put a 50 cal has 4 times the area of a 25 cal.

You are correct in asking so what?
As long as the cartridge selected has the energy and sectional density to penetrate the rest is just loonie discussion after hunting season has passed.

Randy

None.

The hole size or blood trail is proportional to the size of bullet. It's pi * (1/2D) * (1/2D). So its really proportional to the square of the bullet radius. You get a lot bigger holes with a small increase in radius.

Just wondering out loud but shouldn't the comparison be made made with the expanded bullet diameter for each,given that by the time the bullet exits,it has expanded?

I mean it's the expanded diameter that makes the hole....or am I missing something?

Bob, the amount of exits are much lower, I have found that the majority of game shot is quartering away. finding bullets, parts of bullets, or a internally lost bullets, are normal after the game is found. There are more "one hole" kills then two by a fair amount.

So with only one bullet diameter hole that was my point. Everyone has an opinion on this, it became a bit silly with the math arguments. However the facts as we see them through real world experience remain. There is a definate improvement .308 and above when compared to .308 and below for blood trails.

YMMV

I've already decided that because of Jim's advice, I'll be getting a .338 Federal or .338-06 for plains game.

It's guaranteed the Africans don't know it..

I thought every kid learned at an early age the old axiom.

[pi(r2)] (don't look right on the computer) Pie are square--NO pie are round, cornbread are square. miles

Two rounds that I like. Have one of each. The 338 Fed will be my go to for just about everything. Only ~100 FPS difference, give or take, in weights up to 210. For heavier bullets the -06 probably has an advantage. Noticibly less recoil with the Fed though. I will take my Fed to Africa in the next couple of years and for deer and elk in the interim.

While we are on the subject, it seems as if today is "International Pi day". miles

Pi

Kinda what I figure.

With today's bullets, I think going light (say, 185gr TSX) in the Fed is about all a guy needs for just about anything out to 350 yards or so. It also has a much better factory ammo selection than the .338-06.

I would have a hard time not accepting the advice of someone with the experience of JJ!

Randy

JJ: Fair enough. Thanks for the answer.

BTW, a .308 has slightly less than 15% more surface area than the 7mm, not 20%.

IMO the line in the sand lies between .308 and .338...

JJHack,

I read either a post or an article of yours somewhere...where you were giving a favorable review of 165 bullets for plains game in the 30-06.

In regards to the 308 Winchester, I get 2625 fps muzzle velocity with the 168 TTSX Barnes and great accuracy. Do you think that is sufficient velocity for plains game, along the lines of the 165 grain 30-06 load? I am thinking up to 250 meters.

This thread has been great, the 308 Winchester seems to get the nod, but what bullets at what muzzle velocity and how far?

My loaner rifle uses the 165TSX at 2900 plus. It's taken game to 400 yards or a bit more.

With the 308 an that bullet in the limpopo you won't likely be too far to use it for anything you care to shoot. Hunting the bush is usually a 50-150 yard situation. Longer shots come up, but even a 300 yard shot would be a loooong shot in the bush for most species.

Thanks for the reply.

Prone or from a rest, I have shot a lot of varmints way out there. Yet on game animals my self-imposed limit is now 250 meters since that is as far as I can quickly hit a 12" circle from field positions.

I like the slower speed also. It seems to not damage as much meat.

Get the "damaged meat" philosophy out of the picture in Africa, Just keep shooting til they are dead. I don't care where you hit them or how many times. Just get them on the ground. Meat will not be wasted, plenty of people will take anything I give them. You cannot take any home, so just keep shooting.