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When I took my sons they were 11 and 15 and they shared a 308 and it worked great with the 168 TSX. I also brought along 150 gr Win XP3 as we started our shooting on sprigbuck and I wanted to see how it performed. We shot 12 of those up to 400 yards with the Winchester load till a 80 yard shot on Blesbok had a massive bullet failure angleing in to the front shoulder and 1-1/2 hr and 385 yard shot finished that bullet being used on the trip. The 168 TSX did not bring any complaints on recoil and performance was great. Lechwe was largest animal taken with the 308. The 168 TSX is my 308 load period.
If I feel the need for something bigger I go to the 375 H&H with 270 TSX.
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I have still old man's dreams of my picture being taken with plains game taken with my Sav 99 lever in .308. Liken to Teddy's pics and Oso's pics with their 1895 Win's. Life is good.
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croldfoot
I have one in my safe that is going to be registered to my daughter. It would be great to have her and her rifle on the next trip.
Randy
Praise the Lord for full Salvation
Christ Still lives upon the throne
And I know the blood still cleansess
Deeper than the sin has gone
Lester Roloff
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I've shot a lot of game with the 7x57 and 160 partitions at 2750 fps and it worked flawlessly in Namibia up to kudu. JJHack has a lot of experience with the .308 and obviously it works well. The plains game dies just like our game.
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Killing game in the USA or Africa is about the same. It's the recovery that is always the issue. When you take about 2/3 of the game in the last hour of light finding what you shoot before you go back to camp is quite important.
There are a lot of hungry meat eaters living in Africa. Most are not picky about where they start to chew, and most worry something bigger is coming right behind them. So they rip away what they can and scurry off to devour it. Then sneak back in to rip off another chunk.
Certainly that animal was dead from whatever your choice of cartridge, from .223 on up. Dead is dead, but the evidence trail that is left for you to locate that dead critter is another story! Not many herd animals you shoot in the USA, and fewer yet that live in dusty conditions that will settle over every drop of blood.
When 30-50 animals spook and run at the shot there are thousands of tracks but only one set was left by the punctured animal. Now try and find that set and the blood that identifies which way it went through the bush and where it lays dead.
It's gonna be several hundred to several thousand bucks when you pull that trigger and hit something. Whether or not you find it is not relevant. You are paying for it. This is not catch and release fishing to see how big a fish you can land on light line.
There is nothing wrong with with a calling your good shot and a quick kill using a smaller gun. However it's my experience most shots will be quick and quartering away in low light leaving some level of possible error. Passing those shots leaves you with far lower opportunity.
I've taken out lots of sub 30 caliber hunters. We have also had plenty of hunters with larger then 30 caliber. It's not my own single opinion on this, it's well accepted that more game is lost by smaller calibers then larger. That line in the sand has to be made somewhere right?
The 375HH is minimum for DG, some folks argue it and some know better then this? It is nevertheless where the experts over decades of experience have settled at for this "line in the sand". Much can be said for the 30 caliber diameter for blood trails. There must be a base line or minimum for acceptable blood. Where do we suggest that falls? It's clear to us and most everyone else in Southern Africa that 30 caliber is that level.
It's nearly 20% bigger then the 7mm, put another way if you think 20% is nothing to sneeze at....... want a 20% pay cut? would like 20% more MPG? Would you like a 20% pay raise? Would you like to be 20% richer? Would you like a 20% discount on your next safari?
20% is a lot to consider, 1/5th bigger!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Joined: May 2009
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,262 |
Killing game in the USA or Africa is about the same. It's the recovery that is always the issue. When you take about 2/3 of the game in the last hour of light finding what you shoot before you go back to camp is quite important.
There are a lot of hungry meat eaters living in Africa. Most are not picky about where they start to chew, and most worry something bigger is coming right behind them. So they rip away what they can and scurry off to devour it. Then sneak back in to rip off another chunk.
Certainly that animal was dead from whatever your choice of cartridge, from .223 on up. Dead is dead, but the evidence trail that is left for you to locate that dead critter is another story! Not many herd animals you shoot in the USA, and fewer yet that live in dusty conditions that will settle over every drop of blood.
When 30-50 animals spook and run at the shot there are thousands of tracks but only one set was left by the punctured animal. Now try and find that set and the blood that identifies which way it went through the bush and where it lays dead.
It's gonna be several hundred to several thousand bucks when you pull that trigger and hit something. Whether or not you find it is not relevant. You are paying for it. This is not catch and release fishing to see how big a fish you can land on light line.
There is nothing wrong with with a calling your good shot and a quick kill using a smaller gun. However it's my experience most shots will be quick and quartering away in low light leaving some level of possible error. Passing those shots leaves you with far lower opportunity.
I've taken out lots of sub 30 caliber hunters. We have also had plenty of hunters with larger then 30 caliber. It's not my own single opinion on this, it's well accepted that more game is lost by smaller calibers then larger. That line in the sand has to be made somewhere right?
The 375HH is minimum for DG, some folks argue it and some know better then this? It is nevertheless where the experts over decades of experience have settled at for this "line in the sand". Much can be said for the 30 caliber diameter for blood trails. There must be a base line or minimum for acceptable blood. Where do we suggest that falls? It's clear to us and most everyone else in Southern Africa that 30 caliber is that level.
It's nearly 20% bigger then the 7mm, put another way if you think 20% is nothing to sneeze at....... want a 20% pay cut? would like 20% more MPG? Would you like a 20% pay raise? Would you like to be 20% richer? Would you like a 20% discount on your next safari?
20% is a lot to consider, 1/5th bigger! Wouldn't a .338-cal be even better?
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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Blood trails are about diameter not velocity. You only need enough velocity to penetrate them, after that it's about the blood flow. Anything bigger diameter then .308 gets exponentially better the bigger you go!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Blood trails are about diameter not velocity. You only need enough velocity to penetrate them, after that it's about the blood flow. Anything bigger diameter then .308 gets exponentially better the bigger you go! Sounds like a .338-06 running 185gr TSXs would be about right.
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Killing game in the USA or Africa is about the same. It's the recovery that is always the issue. When you take about 2/3 of the game in the last hour of light finding what you shoot before you go back to camp is quite important.
There are a lot of hungry meat eaters living in Africa. Most are not picky about where they start to chew, and most worry something bigger is coming right behind them. So they rip away what they can and scurry off to devour it. Then sneak back in to rip off another chunk.
Certainly that animal was dead from whatever your choice of cartridge, from .223 on up. Dead is dead, but the evidence trail that is left for you to locate that dead critter is another story! Not many herd animals you shoot in the USA, and fewer yet that live in dusty conditions that will settle over every drop of blood.
When 30-50 animals spook and run at the shot there are thousands of tracks but only one set was left by the punctured animal. Now try and find that set and the blood that identifies which way it went through the bush and where it lays dead.
It's gonna be several hundred to several thousand bucks when you pull that trigger and hit something. Whether or not you find it is not relevant. You are paying for it. This is not catch and release fishing to see how big a fish you can land on light line.
There is nothing wrong with with a calling your good shot and a quick kill using a smaller gun. However it's my experience most shots will be quick and quartering away in low light leaving some level of possible error. Passing those shots leaves you with far lower opportunity.
I've taken out lots of sub 30 caliber hunters. We have also had plenty of hunters with larger then 30 caliber. It's not my own single opinion on this, it's well accepted that more game is lost by smaller calibers then larger. That line in the sand has to be made somewhere right?
The 375HH is minimum for DG, some folks argue it and some know better then this? It is nevertheless where the experts over decades of experience have settled at for this "line in the sand". Much can be said for the 30 caliber diameter for blood trails. There must be a base line or minimum for acceptable blood. Where do we suggest that falls? It's clear to us and most everyone else in Southern Africa that 30 caliber is that level.
It's nearly 20% bigger then the 7mm, put another way if you think 20% is nothing to sneeze at....... want a 20% pay cut? would like 20% more MPG? Would you like a 20% pay raise? Would you like to be 20% richer? Would you like a 20% discount on your next safari?
20% is a lot to consider, 1/5th bigger! Jim do you remember when Cyril shot the impala and it wasn't found until the next day? ![[Linked Image]](http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab163/RAC1961/ImpalaCyril.jpg)
I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf....
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Roger my point exactly, this is what is found when you have no blood trail right before dark.
You know me, you've spent a lot of time hunting with me. You know I have no agenda other then helping people the best I can. There are not a lot of things worse then the guy who has not recovered an animal before dark around the campfire that night. He is brooding over the loss, uncertain of the outcome, and everybody else is laughing and having a great time. The poor bugger that has not recovered his animal is drowning his sorrows and will have a sleepless night.
But as you point out in this photo. That could be your 60" kudu, your zebra skin, or whatever. Its a loss many times when you find it, and we were darn lucky to find this impala anyway. Not much more to have had a hyena pack away the whole thing!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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It's nearly 20% bigger then the 7mm, put another way if you think 20% is nothing to sneeze at....... want a 20% pay cut? would like 20% more MPG? Would you like a 20% pay raise? Would you like to be 20% richer? Would you like a 20% discount on your next safari?
20% is a lot to consider, 1/5th bigger!
Isn't the percentage relative to size though? 20% of a dollar isn't much, but 20% of a million is. The difference between .308" and .284" is .024". That doesn't seem like much to me nor a deal breaker and seems like it'd be more dependent on bullets or cartridge. While math has never been my strong point, I don't believe .024" is 20% larger. If I'm correct, .308" would be slightly more than 20% larger than .243/6mm or am I missing something here?
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I used a CZ .308W on my first hunt in South Africa loaded with Woodleigh 165 PPSN's. It performed flawlessly on Plains Game including Zebra, Gemsbok and Blue Wildebeast. I am taking a 7x57 on my third trip (Botswana).
If you are not going to consider the mild recoiling 7x57 then either the .308W or 7-08 will do the job. I would recommend the 154grain 7mm or 165grain .308 projectiles.
Try to arrange shooting both back to back and make your own conclusions.
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Campfire Tracker
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It's nearly 20% bigger then the 7mm, put another way if you think 20% is nothing to sneeze at....... want a 20% pay cut? would like 20% more MPG? Would you like a 20% pay raise? Would you like to be 20% richer? Would you like a 20% discount on your next safari?
20% is a lot to consider, 1/5th bigger!
Isn't the percentage relative to size though? 20% of a dollar isn't much, but 20% of a million is. The difference between .308" and .284" is .024". That doesn't seem like much to me nor a deal breaker and seems like it'd be more dependent on bullets or cartridge. While math has never been my strong point, I don't believe .024" is 20% larger. If I'm correct, .308" would be slightly more than 20% larger than .243/6mm or am I missing something here? The difference between .284 and .308 caliber is 7.8%
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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It's nearly 20% bigger then the 7mm, put another way if you think 20% is nothing to sneeze at....... want a 20% pay cut? would like 20% more MPG? Would you like a 20% pay raise? Would you like to be 20% richer? Would you like a 20% discount on your next safari?
20% is a lot to consider, 1/5th bigger!
Isn't the percentage relative to size though? 20% of a dollar isn't much, but 20% of a million is. The difference between .308" and .284" is .024". That doesn't seem like much to me nor a deal breaker and seems like it'd be more dependent on bullets or cartridge. While math has never been my strong point, I don't believe .024" is 20% larger. If I'm correct, .308" would be slightly more than 20% larger than .243/6mm or am I missing something here? The difference between .284 and .308 caliber is 7.8% The difference between .284 and .308 caliber measured in frontal area is more than 7.8%. The 308 is almost 18% larger than 284.
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Comparing frontal area of the 7mm bullet and a 30 cal bullet is silly.
First, starting diameter is irrelevant when you use expanding bullets.
Second, the expansion of those bullets on game is inconsistent (being dependent on velocity at impact, animal hide thickness, bone vs muscle vs lung...). So how can you say one is better than the other when the after diameter expansion may or may not be larger than the other?
Real world hunting performance between the two is identical. Anecdotal evidence is helpful, but certainly not gospel. For every .308 is the debil story, there is a 308 saved the day story. Same for the 7mm-08. The fact that there is so much discussion about which is best with no clear choice tells me there is no real difference.
The 7mm-08 is the modern 7X57 if that makes you feel any better.
Personally, I would get a good donor rifle rebarreled to 7X57 and load it with 160ish grain bullets and call it a day.
Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps.
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Silly to you, Witness 2-3 thousand big animals killed by every cartridge available, and get back to me on that. When we take 120-180 big game per season with our hunters the numbers and the resolution to what really works add up quick. This is not counting the culling of so many smaller "big game" like springbok and impala.
It's always the call of the hunter, certainly I'm not going to enforce something that is not the law. I'm just pointing out the experience we all share with the numbers of game taken here. Your experience may differ and thats fine we all come here to share. I have no dog in the fight. I don't get a commission for .308 diameter ammo!
Frontal area is a big deal with the entry, no bullet is fully expanded at the instant of impact, that happens almost entirely internal. Without an exit hole all you have is bullet size entry puncture. Again Seeing 1000's of entry wounds helps with this kind of opinion and the huge resolution. This gives me great confidence in my opinion here.
I did not dream this up one day and decide to post this as a joke to con unsuspecting sportsmen!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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JJ, it is silly. Lets look at just the entry wound. Skin is very elastic. What happens if it is hit when it is tensed vs relaxed? Is the entry wound static or is there temporary expansion? Is the skin overlying tense muscle, bone (rib), fat, or thin muscle/lung (air)? I dont doubt your experience, but I do know how certain events stand out and bias future observations. Kinda like when buying a new car or truck. If you drive a Ford, you never really notice how many Tacomas are on the road until you start shopping for one and then they are everywhere. In a similar fashion, having bad 7mm-08 experiences back to back can bias future opinions. With the innumerable variables when it comes to killing game, placing all your eggs is in a basket labeled 0.24" is a bit silly.  Like you, I don't have any financial interest in 7mm bullets either!  
Last edited by duckear; 02/01/11.
Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps.
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duckear,
I think JJHack is talking about percentages. If you look at a graph of the size of entrance and exit wounds with a 7mm and overlay a graph of the size of the entrance and exit wounds with .308" bullets, there will probably be some overlap in the two bell curves (assumes a large number of samples), but the median with the .308" bullet will be larger than the median with the 7mm bullet, given comparable impact velocity and bullet construction.
Probably 80 to 90% of the time (maybe even more than 90% of the time) it would not matter whether you were using a 7x57 vs. a .308 Win. That other 2% or 5% or 10% of the time is what JJ seems to be focused on. When you see hundreds of animals shot a year, I'm sure the 5% (or whatever it is) adds up to a sizeable number. People have to decide for themselves how they like the odds they are going to play.
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The difference between .284 and .308 caliber measured in frontal area is more than 7.8%. The 308 is almost 18% larger than 284.
How is .308" 18% larger than .284"? Seems to me terminal effect would be more dependent on the bullet rather than the .024" difference in frontal area.
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In the past I had a 7mm-08, 308, 338 Federal and 358 win.
The one I miss the most is the 7mm-08, with a good recoil pad it was easy to shoot even being a very light 700 Ti.
Ted
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