I cannot attest for the scientific accuracy for this survey but the general idea clearly filters. I am not in any way associated with this survey and I did not contact the author at all. Below is merely what the author reported. The source is mentioned right at the end and if you want to remain unbiased then read the report before going to the source. I am also unsure as to when this survey was undertaken and I'm sure salesmen now have a better idea about what to sell because hunters are seemingly becoming better informed prior to arrival.

Pieter

This is the report:
A SURVEY OF WHAT AFRICAN PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS WANT YOU TO BRING.
During the past years, I have undertaken an intensive survey of African outfitters and Professional Hunters, (PH�s).
Most PH�s have said that there are two times they are scared when hunting, (ok, maybe three):
l. When they go to meet a client at the airport that they have never met before. He has no idea what this guy looks like and what kind of shape he is in.
2. When the client opens up his gun case, and they head for the range. Lord only knows what the salesman at the local discount store sold this poor guy. This is especially true, since odds are that the salesman has less experience than the client does.
The client tells the clerk that, "He is going to Africa and what does he need?" The salesman immediately hands him a 300 Loudenstomper-Ultra-Wounderby with a muzzle brake and a great big scope.
The salesman never even asked what he was going to hunt or at what ranges or conditions might be encountered.
3. The final time he is scared is when the client wounds a Buffalo, Lion or Leopard, because he (the PH) is the guy who must find that animal and finish the job. Moreover, guess who has the best chance of being chewed on?
Below is listed the replies of the PH�s contacted.
What do "most" PH�s want a hunter to bring for guns?
For Plains game: (Including Leopard)
Most important, is that a client bring a gun he is familiar with and can shoot the best.
1st choice is 300 Win Mag with 26 votes
2nd choice is 30-06 with 24 votes
3rd choice is 338 Mag with 18 votes
4th choice is 7 mm Rem Mag with 9 votes
5th choice is a 270 Winchester 7 votes
6th choice is 7 mm STW or any of the ULTRA Magnums
For "Dangerous" Game (Buffalo, Lion, Elephant, Rhino, or Hippo):
1st. Choice is 375 H&H with 54 votes
2nd Choice is 416 Rem with 11 votes
3rd Choice is mixed Double Rifles of 470 etC.
Are many of the scopes hunters bring too big? 48 yes and 5 no.
Is there any particular gun or scope that you HATE to see one of your hunters arrive with?
First place went to Weatherby (aka, Wounderby), they got 27 votes. The new ULTRA Calibers and STW�s are not getting any raving reviews so far either.
Followed by the 308 Win, 264 Win.
The reason the most everyone hates the Weatherbys, (and the Ultra�s) is because the recoil is too severe, and the client flinches and then makes a bad shot.
IF a man uses the RIGHT bullets AND can stand the recoil, the Weatherby and Ultra�s are awesome killers.
Scopes were not a major factor, except if a variable power, the client always has it cranked up to max all the time. Better to set it at 4x or 6 x and then if needed, power up to 9x or 12x.
Do very many hunters bring reloaded ammo? 48 yes. Which is about 1/3 or more of their hunters.
Is there particular factory ammo that you LOVE to see your hunters bring?
Federal Premiums with Nosler Partitions or Trophy Bonded Bear Claws got 51 votes,
Remington ammo with Swifts got 19 votes.
PMC or Wby with Barnes X bullets got 14 votes.
Winchester Fail Safes got 9 votes.
Have you ever experienced any misfires?
Factory misfires. 78 no 5 yes
Reload misfires? 79 no 4 yes
Do you or any of your PH's reload? 17 yes 49 no.
Do you think that the "Super Premium" bullets, like Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frames, Fail-Safes, and Barnes-X etc are worth the extra cost? 59 yes 24 no.
How about Nosler Ballistic Tips and other "plastic tipped" bullets?
A simple NO will cover the replies. They are too violent on impact, and seriously lack reasonable penetration.
Should your hunters practice more? 77 YES
Do reloaders tend to be better shots than those that do not reload? 66 yes 2 no
Do you like hunters to bring guns with KDF or Mag Na Ports?
75 NO and 0 yes (Better to bring a smaller gun that kicks less.)
If hunting dangerous game, does the client REALLY know what might be in store for him?
No way, they watch all the Mark Sullivan videos and see TOO MANY charges, (and most of those are allegedly staged anyway.) What they really do not realize is that their little soft bodies are not ready for the bush.
They bring Boots that are new, and their feet will hurt an hour after arrival. No way are they ready for a long hard hunt on foot or their belly.
Many clients are there only because they feel it is the "IN" thing to do and they must keep up with the "Jones". They are much wiser the second time around.


Source: African PH opinion survey source

Interesting read Pieter. Thank you.

Very cool Pieter, though I must say after half a dozen trips to Africa, your survey pretty well mirrors what I have learned over the years.
We ( Ingwewife and I )make it a point to do a LOT of practice shooting, primarily offhand, or from other field positions. No bench shooting ( havent seen a bench in the bush to use anywhere Ive been in Africa..)
We bring well worn and well broken in hunting clothes and footwear ( unlike most I see who get off the plane in Jo'burg with brand new head to foot 'safari' gear)
The largest scope Ive ever used over there was a Leupy 1.5-5....on anything. No muzzle brakes.
Our rifles are usually as well worn as our clothing,and Ive done far more shooting with conventional cartridges over there than I have with magnums...


Ive had a lot of people ask for advice going over there, and the #1 thing I tell them is to be a good client, don't be an azzhole. Do what your PH tells you, before and during the trip, shoot what your PH tells you to shoot, and DON'T arrive with a "shopping list" of animals you want and minimum scores you will accept!

Yours is great info Pieter....hopefully some will follow it....

that list works just as well for the states as it does Africa

Very good stuff!!

My first safari in 1990, the PH was very well known, with 30 years experience at the time.

He told me the 3 things he hated to see when the client opened the rifle case were:
1. muzzle break
2. set trigger
3. anything that said Weatherby on it


Pete

I have to ask. Why such dislike of the muzzle break? Is it noise or do they assume with a muzzle break the hunter has too much gun and is trying to over compensate?

Why the hate for the 308?

I shot an 06 AI in Africa, and sure didn't need 6.6 shots per critter...

Thinking about my 25-06 with 2-7X leupy for Argentina next year...my outfitter suggests good ol .270 or -06 class rounds. Maybe I will suprise him by showing up with my .340 Wby and brand new shiny camo just to make an impression, then pull my .270 or .25-06 out and change into jeans and plaid shirt to ease his mind.

In re-reading the thread...I musta missed that part....

Wish I knew why. We cut our teeth on the 308 and I like it a Lott. For many years it was our family hunting rifle - in fact, our only family hunting rifle. My younger brother inherited it when my father passed away and I still look at it longingly when I see it.

Nice to see the .375 H&H held in such high esteem by the PHs. In my limited experience, it kills elephant, hippo, and buffalo just as easily as a .458 with much heavier bullets.

Thanks for the reply. When I get the chance to head over there I'm bringing a 308 with me for the hell of it.

Coincidence I have been preaching here for a decade now that 30 caliber and bigger diameter is the base line for good success.

Coincidence that our loaner rifles when I'm in camp are 30/06 rifles?

Probably

Don't forget the 223 AI. I'm wondering if you could kill an eland with it

Hi Pieter
nice reading
Saw slightly myself in mirrow when read this report
It's seems that most of African vistorts are from US (ammo, guns). I was slightly supprised that 30-06 get so high valuation and 308 so low. Same time was supprised about muzzle brake and Weatherby hate. Have myself for Africa 40 years old Sauer-Weatherby 9,3x64 with mzzle brake and both my PH have value it has good gun

Anyway good to know what specialist think about "greenhorms"

YUP! Although I've only been there twice, I agree with ingwe verbatim.


maddog

I wonder if the no love for the .308 is because they have been seeing tacticool ninja warriors that want to do the sniper thing. Those guys certainly are a bore to me.

It was a bit of both, but mostly that a break indicates a rifle that the owner is afraid of and consequently can't shoot well. This ties in with point no. 3, two sides of the same coin.

As for the set trigger, he told the story of a client who was lagging behind the PH and tracker, endlessly fiddling with his ST.
Then BOOM, round passed between the two of them and hit the dirt 10 yds ahead of them. The old and very experienced tracker just turned around and walked back to the truck, refusing to hunt with that client from then on. The old guy was no coward either, having stood flat footed next to this PH during several lion charges over the years. But getting ventilated by the client was more than he was willing to chance.


Pete

Dude...you are giving me ideas....


Actually Ive often thought if I get to go back, to take the .223AI and shoot a bunch of impala sized stuff..


My last trip over all I took was a .22-250 loaded with TSXs...killed my biggest warthog!


The remarks on the Weatherby's and muzzle brakes are not unique to Africa...Anytime, anywhere someone sees a shiny new Weatherby or any rifle with a brake it is symbolic of two things. 1. The shooter has more gun than he can comfortably handle and 2. He is devoutly hoping that equipment will take the place of expertise ( i.e. he should have spent the extra funds shooting his rifle, and getting to know it...)


I went on one guided hunt with a freind and we spent the first couple hours in camp getting to know guide/outfitter. When we remarked that we'd better get the guns out to check zero and let these guys know we can shoot we got the quick retort " Oh...you guys can shoot...."
I asked him how he knew that and he said simply that we had been there for a couple hours and hadnt drug out our rifles for brag and show and tell....indeed he didnt even know what we had brought to shoot.
Apparently, and Ive noticed since then, one of the first things a visiting hunter does is drag out his ultra-cool rifle to show it off and impress the guides/PHs...
Hint...it doesn't.....



At least not in the 'good' way...

That article contains way too much common sense for many people! For nearly all game other than DG or eland, a fellow really doesn't need anything more than a 30-06. If a fellow wanted to hunt Africa many times and only own one rifle, a .375 would be the ideal 'one gun for everything' rifle.

On my 4 safaris, I've taken a .270, .300 win mag, .338 win mag, .416 Hoffman, .458 win mag and .470 NE. If my next hunt is for plains game only, I'll take a .270 or .30-06 unless Eland is on the license, then will take my .338. If DG is part of it, then my .338 and .416.

My loaner 30/06 has killed well over 20 eland, almost every one with a single shot. It has also killed Giraffe and a couple other very big things.

It's not the best choice for some animals. However it's so easy to shoot and so accurate that the hunters just do so well with it.

I had a hunter bring a 375HH. He shot and wounded and missed several animals with it the first few days. I deliberately loaded it for him on the stalk, I had no bullet in the chamber. We were stalking impala and had a decent ram in sight. The chamber was deliberately empty.

I watched him jerk that rifle 3-4 inches up when he yanked on the trigger and heard click.

That day we went to shoot the 30/06 for practice. He nailed every animal he shot one after the other the rest of the week with the 30/06. This is a perfect and all to frequent example of a hunter that is way over gunned for his comfort level.


A muzzle brake for a hunter is bad, but not a deal breaker, while solo hunting. However as a PH when you have 10-12-20 hunters a year, and half come with a brake, your hearing takes a beating in a bad way. Year after year this is really bad for your future hearing.

Muzzle brakes are a nightmare for a pro hunter. I cannot even count the amount of times I have had crap blown into my eyes from the blast while a hunter is shooting prone. I don't like them at all, however I would never tell a hunter not to use one. There are things I do much different with a guy using a brake on the rifle.

Pieter,

Very interesting--partly because the results are very similar to those from other surveys. The one difference might be that in others the .30-06 led the .300 magnums, though not by much.

Among all the PH's I've hunted with and otherwise known, there's only been one who was anti-.30-06. He was only 32, and out of the business within a couple more years. The rest have all been emphatic about how they'd much rather see a hunter show up with a well-used .30-06 than a shiny new magnum of any caliber, especially if the PH learns the magnum has been purchased just before the safari, due to all the stuff the hunter heard about the toughness of African plains game.

I knew Finn Aagaard pretty well. He wasn't anti-.300, but did say about a third of his clients who brought .300 magnums couldn't shoot them well. Here in the U.S. I know a mule deer outfitter who claims he's never had a client who could shoot a .300 magnum accurately, which says a lot about hunters who believe trophy mule deer require a .300 magnum!

Hard to believe that most hunters are as stupid as this survey would lead you to believe.

One PH I know, as does Mule Deer, had his left ear "blown out" by a client (I was going to call them something else) when the client fired his muzzle braked 375, a couple of feet from the PHs ear. The man is now deaf in that ear, and gets infections in it real easy. My feeling is, and probably the PHs too, is, if it needs a muzzle brake for you to shoot it, get something with less recoil. When I was in RSA last year, another hunter was there too, hunting the same farm. He used a 300RUM and I used a 308 W. Neither round killed the animals any more than dead.

Actually, having done a lot of Hunter Sight In work for years now, I'm not at all suprised that most hunters that dense. Won't say stupid, just ignorant and seem to want to remain that way.

Part of the problem with the folks going to Africa is, there is so much BS spread around, about how hard African game is to kill, on various hunting sites, the campfire not being immune. Perhaps if folks would start remarking that they found Impala, Waterbuck, etc., no harder to kill than the whitetails and mule deer here, it'd get folks to take their 06, rather than their RUM. But, kinda guess, that most folks going to Africa or even out west, to hunt, don't know about the campfire, or other places they might get some information and/or ask questions.

Warren Page wrote an article that is in his book and was a column about what to take to Africa. He said a .270, 30-06 or one of the 7 MM Mags (Rem, Weatherby, Mashburn) and a .375 of some sort with GOOD bulletss that have high sectional density.

That article must be almost 50 yrs. old (1965 or so) and the truth of it hasn't changed. Sage words from the Professor.

This OP posted survey is an inaccurate copy of an article published in 2009 by Terry BlauKamp. It is a story posted on AfricaHunting.com. SCI is not the accurate source of this info that is reported to be a survey. The SCI clearly plagiarizes the original and adds and omits pertinate info.

Having retread the article again, it is clearly written for entertainment value and has little basis in fact.

I'm sorry, but any time a PH has disparaging comments about Weatherbys, I assume he's either ignorant (as in lack of information) or an anachronism. The "hatred" for Weatherbys although not unfounded, revolved around their high velocity and at the time bullets that just could not take the velocities. Today, with the advent of modern premium bullets that actually hold up, Weatherby calibers and for that matter any of the magnums just don't have an issue. And place no comments about proper shot placement, that has to be the most overused and obvious "given" in all of hunting. Love the 3006, but sorry, it just can't carry the water of what the 300s do.

i think it has to do with the vast majority of Weatherby's showing up in Africa are with ppl that have owned them a matter of weeks before the safari and had not shot anything bigger than a 308 before that......with someone thats used to them with good bullets they are great rifles.....but put a 340 Weatherby in a guys hands who has never used anything bigger than a 308 before going to Africa and you gonna send a shiver down any PH's spine cause you know its not gonna end well....

Link to original story:

http://www.africahunting.com/conten...professional-hunters-want-you-bring-235/

All valid points and I concur, but what gets me is their often-times "anti American" attitude as they won't take the same position if the same client shows up with an H&H 465 that recoils as bad if not worse.

well if a 465H&H didnt cost as much as a car im sure you would see PH's beotching about them a whole lot more .....Weatherby's, being in the average mans price range, are seen a whole lot more....

I don't understand this about Weatherbys and recoil. I have owned two Weatherbys in .300 Mag. and one in 7mm Mag. I now have a .300 RUM, and the recoil from any of these does not bother me in the least.

Before my health went down, I fired these rifles on a regular basis from a bench rest. I handload and I spent a lot of time trying different loads. Full power loads, too. I have a lot more experience than 2 or 3 sighting shots a year with .300 Magnums.

The only cartridge that I have ever fired that I would not want to repeat is the .460 Wby.

I do not like to be disagreeable, but the recoil from these cartridges just does not bother me at all, and I do not understand it when someone talks against the .300 Wby. because of recoil, and why a guide doesn't like it when a shooter shows up with one.

I think I could go on an extended African trip, where a lot of ammo was expended, without worrying about recoil. I have never been to Africa, and because of health reasons, I will never go, but during my shooting days, it would not surprise me to learn that I have fired more .300 Mags from a bench, in one day, as I would have fired on a dozen African trips, total.

To me, the recoil from the .300 RUM and Wby. is about like that of a .375 H&H, so I don't think I would have a problem with one of these, either. At least I never have, allthough I don't have as much experience with a .375 as I do with the .300 Mags.

I did fire a .458 Win. Mag. that weighted about 7 pounds, maybe less. That one, I would leave at home if I was going to Africa.

Of course, now, before I shot one of these rifles, I would have to wonder what effect the recoil would have on my pace maker.

I've never been to Africa, but I have a hard time believing a 30-06 kills African game, at least up to elk size stuff, better than a 7mag. I ain't buying that one. One thing my buddies who have been over there numerous times have told me repeatedly is that the "African game is super tough" label is generally BS. When I've seen at least 15 300lb free range aoudad rams killed with a 7mm-08 and a 140 gr core lokt I'd probably believe my buds.

I'm lusting to get to Africa though, big time.

They sure are prejudiced against Weatherbies. My first PH was disappointed that I brought a .300 Wby, though it wasn't new. I'd used it in Alaska. He preferred a 30-06 and hand loaded 180 grain bullets to only 2400 fps. 8 shots and 8 dead animals later I partially convinced him.

I prefer the 180 grain Nosler because I can make absolutely no trajectory allowances at any range I care to shoot and not worry about bullet performance, at least on plains game. I load it to about 100 fps less than Weatherby does. My PH told me the bushveldt would not permit shooting at more than 100 yards but three of my shots were in excess of 200.

I wanted to shoot a lion with it (legal in Zimbabwe) last year but my PH said, "No." Rule: Do what the PH says.

My .300 Weatherby kicks harder than my .375 H&H but it weighs a lot less.

JGR I don't think there is an observable difference in how the 7 RM, the 30-06, or the 270 kills plains game assuming good shot placement with the best bullets. The results are the same.

MD has a M24 30-06 which he uses and he gets great results. I have used the 270 a lot and a 7RM and both work very well with good placement and great bullets. In both cases we have confidence backed by experience.

Shoot poorly with anything and you will have an unhappy rodeo.

After all these years and developments the 30-06/.375 still rule. Mr. O'Connor would be pleased. Good to see the Swift A- Frame and Trophy bonded get some respect. Copper bullets seem to get all the love lately....

Having spent a few years as a guide in a somewhat misspent youth (not Africa), and having observed a lot since, I know of few professions where tribal lore seems more firmly imbedded. The whole weatherby legacy is an example. I am convinced that particular prejudice does in fact pre-date most of the current crop of PHs' births. And just like their fathers, the same guy who currently holds his sport's weatherby .300 in disdain will, without hesitation, hand out his loaner .300 Win Mag to the next.

I would also guess that campfire dialogue (the real ones - not here) involve incompetent client stories in one form or another at least at a 4 to 1 ratio. I suspect most of us have laughed at a guide or PH's tale of the client who was afraid of his shadow, couldn't see the buff - elephant - fill in the blank - at 25 yards, etc etc. Bad shooting and "bad" calibers invariably form a rich content to many of those tales. And there is nothing wrong with any of that; it is highly entertaining. The last camp I was in had a Spanish Grandee and his son, who took an hour to dress each morning, looking like they stepped out of the pages of the latest Beretta catalogue. Best I could tell their shooting technique consisted of wearing the animal down by sustained fire. Will make a great campfire story about which Nick and I will laugh for years. It also ignores the vast majority of this year's clients who shot competently and well.

Surveys interest me for what most might have missed.
The PH's I have met have all been experts in the field but were not what you would call gun looneys in there knowledge of cartridges. They used what they could get based on what was available and not what they might have researched and purchased. One PH friend uses a 416 Rem in Winchester M70 and when I asked why that gun he said it was a gift, he shot it well, and it worked. Very honest but true. In places like Zim they cobble together what ammo that is left behind. Not by choice but by default.
There are allot of hunters that can't shoot period whether it is a magnum or not. So many have never even tried a gun with a good trigger. The trigger is the most important start. I have used a Savage Accutrigger rifle with some kids that wanted to jerk the trigger. It helped with the happy finger until they got over the anxiety of the gun going boom.
The interpretation that I got out of the 308 not being liked or the Weatherby not being liked is that one was too big and one was too small.
The only reason a PH would not like a 308 is that he thought it was too light. It gave me a good laugh because so many hunters are lousy shots and I could see where the PH could think the 308 would be too light.
On my last trip to the East Cape with my family we took a 308 and a 375. Hardly what you would consider for the area but I wanted to try the 270 TSX in the 375 because I am a gun looney. The 308 mostly was for the kids. Shots up to 450 yards were successfully taken. The tracker couldn't believe how good my sons shot as they see so many adult men that can't. The key was the littlest shell of them all, the 22 LR. Practice, practice, practice with a good trigger

thats a pretty goodobservation......im the only full bore gun looney in the group i hunt and fish with.....the others(except my wife) have no real concept of a custom rifle, handloading, wildcats or a damn good trigger as they all shoot factory stuff as they bought it.....only reason my wife knows any different is she shoots my rifles though at the moment her gun is a plain factory Rem 7 youth that happened to have a decent trigger when we bought it....

I like what I like because I have seen it work. Not once, or twice but many times. If you come over with a 30-06 and a 375 you are covered to hunt African game period.

I have NO distaste for Weatherby's or muzzle breaks. If you can shoot your rifle well with premium grade ammo we are in for a good hunt.

The Weatherby's may have built a reputation because of velocity where apart from sound, the projectiles have easily been deflected by small branches. Hunted with a Senator once who had a Weatherby Mag of some sort but man could he use it. I was impressed as is the case with someone who shoots a 22-250 with great ability.

Ingwe, my big worry starts when a new hunter shoots too well when sighting the rifle. Mostly when a hunter shoots his first shot in the bull is when I start worrying becaue they NEVER perform well in the field. I am no gun nut - in fact I know very little about guns but I know people. Had a guy with an O/U 375 with interchangeable barrels to a 12/ga 7X57 combo. I was going to slit his throat with a blunt knife on day 8 when the outfitter gave me a different hunter. His talking bravado ruptured my spleen on day 5 and my trachia on day 6. He missed MANY shots.

In the Free State shot number 18 at a springbok broke the left rear leg about 4" off the ground. Try and find that springbok in a herd of 20?? Shot 23 finally put it down. That was my lucky shot.

I much prefer a hunter (young, my age and older) who arrives with well used gear. That indicates you care for your gear and more important: you use it. Know your rifle, know your ammunition and most of all, know and admit your limitations.

Safe hunting.

My 7 Wby Mag will be in a 700 action. I hope no one notices.

It is not Africa but when I was younger I would be called on to find and dispatch badly shot bear. Without fail the hunters were excuse makers with an attitude

Rick,

I've not only used the .30-06 in Africa but have taken a 7x57 on two safaris that were partly cull hunts, so have some experience with it as well. Used it on quite a few animals including kudu and wildebeest with no problem, using various bullets in the 160-grain range at 2650-2700 fps.

On one of the safaris my PH was Kevin Thomas, an extremely experienced PH who started as a game ranger in what was then Rhodesia when he was 17. He's a big 7x57 fan, having used it to kill hundreds of animals on both control and as his back-up rifle on plains game hunts--including a number of eland. Mostly he's used South African factory ammo with a 170-grain roundnose.

Eileen used a .308 with 150-grain Nosler E-Tips on a similar cull/trophy hunt in the Eastern Cape in 2008, and killed a bunch of animals quite neatly, including a very nice zebra. Her PH, Keith Gradwell, is a big .308 fan, as are several other RSA PH's I've run into. He liked Eileen's shooting!

I know someone else who has hauled a 7x57 to Africa a few times.....

but no one cares bout him.....

John,
Loved your statement,"He liked Eileen's shooting." That says it all.
Best to you,
Rick
PS I can't believe I continue to participate in these posts and attempt to explain that regular old standard cartridges work well. Makes me think that evidence based upon actual experience is worthless and yet outlandish statements that fly in the face of facts are readily accepted and perpetuated.

Since nobody cares about him, did he go on a DG hunt with that 7X57 or were the boundaries reset with a 223 AI

Careful, I hear he's partial to the .204 Ruger these days... For zebra anyway!

If I was that 223AI I'd be getting pizzed that the .204 Ruger is the new mistress.

Heeler, and I though what goes in the bush....

*I* did...