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https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/def...e-passcodes-njs-highest-court-rules.html

IMHO. Even though he may be guilty, this ruling violates the constitutional right against self incrimination.

By Joe Atmonavage | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com
New Jersey’s highest court ruled Monday that authorities can compel defendants to turn over their phone passcodes in order for them to retrieve information from the device through a search warrant.


The state Supreme Court’s 4-3 ruling was a result of the case of Robert Andrews, a former Essex County Sheriff’s officer, who alleged it was unconstitutional to make him provide his cell phone passcode to authorities as they investigated him for aiding a man who was under investigation for drug trafficking. Authorities executed a search warrant on Andrews’ phones, but were not able to access information without the passcodes.

The majority of the state Supreme Court concurred with Justice Lee Solomon’s opinion that found “neither federal nor state protections against compelled disclosure shield Andrews’s passcodes.”

The opinion says that the lawfully issued search warrants, which Andrews did not challenge, gives the state “the right to the cellphones’ purportedly incriminating contents.”

The ruling now sets a precedent across the state that authorities have the ability to compel criminal defendants to disclose their cell phone passcodes in order to retrieve information from the device they were seeking to obtain with a search warrant, legal experts say.

Attorneys and advocates who argued forcing the disclosure of a defendant’s passcode was unconstitutional said they view the ruling as a blow to privacy and a defendant’s constitutional right to remain silent and not self-incriminate.



“(The ruling) is taking a stick of dynamite to that fundamental right and imploding it from within,” said Matt Adams, vice president of Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers of New Jersey.

In the dissenting opinion, authored by Justice Jaynee LaVecchia, the justice raises concerns that this an example of citizen’s right to privacy “constantly shrinking” and a “direct violation of (Andrews’) right not to testify against himself.”

“We are at a crossroads in our law,” she wrote. “Will we allow law enforcement -- and our courts as their collaborators -- to compel a defendant to disgorge undisclosed private thoughts -- presumably memorized numbers or letters -- so that the government can obtain access to encrypted smartphones?”

Charles J. Sciarra, Andrews’ attorney, said in a statement that the decision is “a major defeat to the United States Constitution when it is already under substantial attack.”'

“It’s time to rethink whether you should keep anything simply private or personal on a personal electronic device because if the government wants it they can now get it,” Sciarra said.

A number of organizations, including the Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers of New Jersey, New Jersey State Bar Association, and the American Civil Liberties Union, all argued that criminal defendants should be shielded from disclosing information that exists only in their mind, like a phone passcode.


Adams, who argued the case on behalf of the Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers of New Jersey, said he hopes the U.S. Supreme Court takes on the case and reverses the decision.

“This is a fundamental matter of individual rights that should not have been decided this way,” he said.

Brandon Minde, the chair of the New Jersey State Bar Association’s Criminal Law Section, said the organization agrees with the dissenting opinion and will continue to monitor how this decision affects privacy concerns for New Jersey residents.

“In a world where right to privacy is constantly shrinking, our Constitutional rights must not,” Minde said.

Justice LaVecchia wrote that forcing Andrews to turn over his passcode raises Constitutional issues because Andrews is being asked to “essentially turn over what is presumed to be incriminating information, in direct violation of his right not to testify against himself.”

But, according to the majority opinion, Andrews is not protected against self-incrimination because the search warrants had enough evidence to “provide ample support to compel Andrews to turn over his passcode.”


“This was no ‘fishing expedition,’” the majority opinion says.

The case

As authorities were conducting a narcotics investigation into Quincy Lowery in 2015, Lowery provided investigators with information: he told detectives that Andrews was providing him information about their investigation and advice to avoid criminal exposure, according to court documents.

Lowery allegedly told authorities that he and Andrews were members of the same motorcycle club, and the two regularly talked on FaceTime, according to the opinion. During one of those calls, Lowery said Andrews told him to “get rid of” his cell phones because law enforcement was doing wiretaps.

Lowery said Andrews also provided information on law enforcement officers who were following Lowery as a part of their investigation and to check if his car was being tracked, according to the opinion.

According to the opinion, the state obtained communication data warrants for cellphone numbers belonging to Andrews and the man under investigation. The warrants revealed 114 cellphone calls and text messages between them over a six-week period.


Andrews was indicted in 2016 for official misconduct, hindering and obstruction.

Lowery said much of what he told investigators could be confirmed by contents of phone communications with Andrews, however, neither state or federal authorities were able to to search Andrews’s two iPhones without his passcode because they had an operating system that makes them “extremely difficult” to access without the passcodes, according to the opinion. (Lowery said communications were gone from his phone after resetting it.)

Prosecutors asked the court to require Andrews to provide his passcodes so the phones could be searched.

Andrews opposed the motion, claiming that disclosure of his passcodes violates the protections against self-incrimination.

However, the trial court ordered Andrews do so, but limited the search of his phone and ordered that when conducted, the search “be performed by the State, in camera, in the presence of Andrews’s defense counsel.”

Andrews appealed the order, but the state’s Appellate Division’s 2018 ruled against Andrews. The court found that using self-incrimination as a defense to not turn over a cell phone passcode “would essentially preclude the State from obtaining the contents of any passcode-restricted device as part of a criminal investigation.”


After the state Supreme Court’s ruling Monday, Andrews’ criminal case, which is still in the pretrial phase due to the legal battle, will move forward. He must turn over his passcodes so that the Essex County Prosecutor’s Office can execute the warrants on his phones, a spokeswoman for the prosecutor’s office said.

Sciarra, Andrews’ attorney, did not respond to multiple requests for comment on if he plans to appeal the decision to the U.S. Supreme Court or if Andrews will oblige with the order to turn over his passcodes.

Chief Justice Stuart Rabner and Justices Anne M. Patterson and Faustino J. Fernandez-Vina joined the majority opinion, while Justices Barry T. Albin and Walter F. Timpone joined the dissenting opinion.
But, I gots the 'nesia now. Can't 'member nothin'
Direct violation of the 5th amendment.
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Direct violation of the 5th amendment.


With the present construct I wonder how the scotus would rule on this?

Surely this case will head in that general direction, you’d think.
"authorities can compel defendants to turn over their phone passcodes"

Unless they use torture or threats of harming your friends/family they can't compel [bleep]
I suffer from CRS disease.
Originally Posted by victoro
"authorities can compel defendants to turn over their phone passcodes"

Unless they use torture or threats of harming your friends/family they can't compel [bleep]



I like the way you think. OTOH, no water or pork n beans for you for 2 weeks, comrade. Cuomo or deBlasio or dimocommie Judge leroy Bean would have you singing in 2 days. wink
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Direct violation of the 5th amendment.


We have dimocrap judges who dont know what youre talking about.
Originally Posted by Lennie
https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/def...e-passcodes-njs-highest-court-rules.html

IMHO. Even though he may be guilty, this ruling violates the constitutional right against self incrimination.

It does. Same for the fact that cops can force you to give them a blood sample during a traffic stop. Yet the courts say it's okay.
Originally Posted by victoro
"authorities can compel defendants to turn over their phone passcodes"

Unless they use torture or threats of harming your friends/family they can't compel [bleep]


What they mean is that it will be considered criminal if you don't.
Originally Posted by Morewood
I suffer from CRS disease.



Even if they got Pelosi to get buck nekit and walk around in the questioning room????
Airwaves are an area of law that has been used against the citizens with the foundation that they are public domain.

So if it was broadcast (even with full intent to conceal as a matter of privacy) the courts have held that any broadcast at any time with full will and volition of the broadcaster, the domain is not private, so no breach of the 5th amendment can be evoked.
When you voice it taken by a 2nd party or 3rd party and broadcast over any air waive you have some grounds for Constitutional challenge, but when you do it yourself (a cell phone is a prime example) all rights to privacy are waived (so said the courts anyway.)

As in the old days when the FBI sometimes tapped into a wire, if you use a land line and a 2nd party uses your voice over the air (like you phone co, or some company that owns your phone co) there is no assumption of waiveture in some cases. The FISC courts have hashed this out many times. But someone calling someone else and plotting a crime over a radio or any cell phone is never protected.

Cell phones are "so convenient" and cost less too. There is a very important reason for that.

Regulations are written by the FCC and they heavily favor the cell system so as to make rates cheaper then land lines. It's not an accident.
If the government can get everyone to use cell phones, only then 100% of telecommunication is exempt from the 5th amendment. Oh what a surprise!!!!!!!!!!!

You didn't actually believe the old established wired phones with a near 100% success record and exceptionally good reliability in a system that has existed for 70 years were going to truly cost more to use then a whole new set of technology did you? Wire tapping takes a warrant and warrants can fail, cops (mostly Feds) can have trouble getting them ,and sometimes they get called on the carpet when they push the bounds of the Bill of Rights. and have personal accountability when they do things a bit to overreaching.

So.............write laws to give "reasons" for the public to "waive" their rights and broadcast everything. Listen to everything and make it 100% legal.

Remember, those were politicians that wrote those laws to favor rates of cell phones and not land lines.........and who have more reasons to want no more privacy inside the public's affairs? Control is largely a function of the lack of privacy----- in every totalitarian state.




Anyone that would keep their phone and computer, when they are about to have legal problems...... is dumb. Those are the first two things I would get rid of. Burn them, shoot them full of holes, throw them in the lake, something to destroy them so they couldn't be used. Then give them all the passwords they want.... make up some new ones!

I lost my phone and the computer was stolen.
I keep a burner phone for amputee porn
It only matters what a court rules if you think it matters what a court rules. In my opinion, when a court rules in direct opposition to the Constitution, or when any government body passes or enforces a law in direct opposition to the Constitution, the are openly declaring themselves traitors, and all that is left to do is the rope. Government officials would disagree, I'm sure.
The answer is ALWAYS “I don’t know”
Well they are Liberals...
They might put you on the rack to sweat it out of you.
Pull your fingernails,
Slather your feet in lard and hold them to the braizer...

You know you could always take the fifth.....

But as someone else said:
" I am not a constitutional.lawyer."
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Lennie
https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/def...e-passcodes-njs-highest-court-rules.html

IMHO. Even though he may be guilty, this ruling violates the constitutional right against self incrimination.

It does. Same for the fact that cops can force you to give them a blood sample during a traffic stop. Yet the courts say it's okay.
The idea behind a blood sample at a traffic stop is that the evidence will disappear if not collected right away. By the time the courts order it, the evidence is gone. Not the same thing as a cell phone at all.
The operative here is “search warrant”. If the state has enough on you to get a search warrant, and they have good enough cause to put it in the warrant, they can search your bank accounts, your medical records, look up your azz, whatever they want.

Why would a cellphone be any different? I don’t say I like it, but it’s not some magical item that is immune to the laws about evidence.
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
The answer is ALWAYS “I don’t know”

Unless it's to the FBI. It's actually a crime to state an untruth to an FBI agent when questioned.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Lennie
https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/def...e-passcodes-njs-highest-court-rules.html

IMHO. Even though he may be guilty, this ruling violates the constitutional right against self incrimination.

It does. Same for the fact that cops can force you to give them a blood sample during a traffic stop. Yet the courts say it's okay.
The idea behind a blood sample at a traffic stop is that the evidence will disappear if not collected right away. By the time the courts order it, the evidence is gone. Not the same thing as a cell phone at all.

The court was divided in Schmerber v. California

Justices Black and Douglas (dissenters) contended that the blood test did indeed force Schmerber to provide self-incriminating testimony, thus violating his Fifth Amendment right. It's hardly, therefore, as open and shut as you suggest.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Lennie
https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/def...e-passcodes-njs-highest-court-rules.html

IMHO. Even though he may be guilty, this ruling violates the constitutional right against self incrimination.

It does. Same for the fact that cops can force you to give them a blood sample during a traffic stop. Yet the courts say it's okay.
The idea behind a blood sample at a traffic stop is that the evidence will disappear if not collected right away. By the time the courts order it, the evidence is gone. Not the same thing as a cell phone at all.

In most states, refusal to give a blood sample will result in your DL being taken.
Originally Posted by Lennie
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Lennie
https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/def...e-passcodes-njs-highest-court-rules.html

IMHO. Even though he may be guilty, this ruling violates the constitutional right against self incrimination.

It does. Same for the fact that cops can force you to give them a blood sample during a traffic stop. Yet the courts say it's okay.
The idea behind a blood sample at a traffic stop is that the evidence will disappear if not collected right away. By the time the courts order it, the evidence is gone. Not the same thing as a cell phone at all.

In most states, refusal to give a blood sample will result in your DL being taken.

So long as they cannot compel you, that wouldn't, in my opinion, be a violation of our Constitutional rights, since we don't necessarily have a Constitutional right to a driver's license. If, however, they tied you down and took the blood, that would be a violation of the Constitution. Not sure if there are any states that permit cops to restrain drivers against their will to forcibly take their blood.
Originally Posted by Wannabebwana
The operative here is “search warrant”. If the state has enough on you to get a search warrant, and they have good enough cause to put it in the warrant, they can search your bank accounts, your medical records, look up your azz, whatever they want.

Why would a cellphone be any different? I don’t say I like it, but it’s not some magical item that is immune to the laws about evidence.
True. Plus, the STATE has to find the evidence. They can search your stuff for it but they can't force you to tell them where to look.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Lennie
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Lennie
https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/def...e-passcodes-njs-highest-court-rules.html

IMHO. Even though he may be guilty, this ruling violates the constitutional right against self incrimination.

It does. Same for the fact that cops can force you to give them a blood sample during a traffic stop. Yet the courts say it's okay.
The idea behind a blood sample at a traffic stop is that the evidence will disappear if not collected right away. By the time the courts order it, the evidence is gone. Not the same thing as a cell phone at all.

In most states, refusal to give a blood sample will result in your DL being taken.

So long as they cannot compel you, that wouldn't, in my opinion, be a violation of our Constitutional rights, since we don't necessarily have a Constitutional right to a driver's license. If, however, they tied you down and took the blood, that would be a violation of the Constitution. Not sure if there are any states that permit cops to restrain drivers against their will to forcibly take their blood.

I'm not arguing your point. I actually agree strongly. However, where they have been given permission this has been used by the powers that shouldn't be.
There's been cases involving the drawing of blood under duress. Where and how far in appeal they went, I never researched. Michigan state troopers were trained years ago to draw blood on the roadside to run inaccurate test kits for drugs.

I remember a case involving a man charged with cocaine use. Even though he admitted guilt, the cop took him to the hospital to get evidence.
He continued to electricute/torture the man repeatedly attempting to force the poor man to urinate into the specimen cup while he was cuffed to a bed.

There's two big volumes of case law that are filled with all kinds of violations of constitutionally protected rights violations under official oppression, etc.
I know of a pastor who was tortured severely at a 4th and 5th A violation check point. Face slammed into broken window shards, close to eyes, electrocuted over and over and over for their pleasure.
I'll post one short segment interview that doesn't get graphic if I can find it quickly.
I think he should have set his phone with a poison pill switch: one phone call to the unit and all info is gone,gone, gone.. Cheers NC

Here's the documentary. It's worth the time IMHO.
Many thousands came to Christ because of the way God used this persecution.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by Wannabebwana
The operative here is “search warrant”. If the state has enough on you to get a search warrant, and they have good enough cause to put it in the warrant, they can search your bank accounts, your medical records, look up your azz, whatever they want.

Why would a cellphone be any different? I don’t say I like it, but it’s not some magical item that is immune to the laws about evidence.
True. Plus, the STATE has to find the evidence. They can search your stuff for it but they can't force you to tell them where to look.


All good points, IMO.


Simply for the sake of legal arguments:

With a properly requested and authorized search warrant the State can have a safe opened to search the contents for evidence. Why is digital information locked in a device any different?
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Direct violation of the 5th amendment.


What happened to the right to remain silent?
Originally Posted by northcountry
I think he should have set his phone with a poison pill switch: one phone call to the unit and all info is gone,gone, gone.. Cheers NC



Care to elaborate on the switch?
Originally Posted by windridge

Simply for the sake of legal arguments:

With a properly requested and authorized search warrant the State can have a safe opened to search the contents for evidence. Why is digital information locked in a device any different?



One, by its nature, requires the defeat of the person's will to retain information, while the other requires a locksmith or a blow torch.
If the guy refused to give the codes regardless of a court order, will they torture it out of him?
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
If the guy refused to give the codes regardless of a court order, will they torture it out of him?

No, but withholding it would result in additional charges independent of the charges they were seeking evidence for.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Direct violation of the 5th amendment.


We have dimocrap judges who dont know what youre talking about.

it is mostly the GOP that is supposedly law and order. 95% of the time judges rule in favor of the deep state / police state
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
If the guy refused to give the codes regardless of a court order, will they torture it out of him?

No, but withholding it would result in additional charges independent of the charges they were seeking evidence for.


This. Search warrants are part and parcel to due process procedures, and there is the element of force and insistence by the State to execute them. "Torture" isn't part of the process, but jail and fines are.

Defendants can't be compelled to testify against themselves, but they can be compelled to turn over existing evidence.
Originally Posted by mrmarklin
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Direct violation of the 5th amendment.


What happened to the right to remain silent?


Being silent is not anything like having to turn over existing evidence. This issue is in no way related to the ban on compelled self-incrimination. It's all about evidence, a big difference.

Some are confusing testimony with evidence.
Originally Posted by windridge
Originally Posted by mrmarklin
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Direct violation of the 5th amendment.


What happened to the right to remain silent?


Being silent is not anything like having to turn over existing evidence. This issue is in no way related to the ban on compelled self-incrimination. It's all about evidence, a big difference.

Some are confusing testimony with evidence.

Any time you open your mouth and speak a word to the police, that can be used against you in a court of law, thus it's supposed to be unconstitutional to compel it.
Black's Law Dictionary (US):

SELF-INCRIMINATION: Acts or declarations either as testimony at trial or prior to trial by which one implicates himself in a crime. The Fifth Amendment, U.S. Const. as well as provisions in many state constitutions and laws, prohibit the government from requiring a person to be a witness against himself involuntarily or to furnish evidence against himself.

That seems to allow for little to no ambiguity. Regardless of warrants or whatever papers the government wants to manufacture, being compelled to furnish evidence against yourself is a direct violation of the Law. And the people attempting to do it, regardless of what color they claim to wear, need to be removed post-haste, because they are proving themselves by their actions to be enemies of that Law.
Is not the fifth, in testimony, that you cannot be compelled to self incriminate?

Discovery is the process of finding evidence.
You may should have an attorney present at a discovery deposition who may advise you not to answer particular questions.

If you do not have to tell them where"it" is. What about a box of papers buried in the back 40. Or a safe deposit box in the Cayman islands?

Who knows where the phone servers are... the Chinese required that data for Chinese customers must be in China. I don't believe that the U.S has stipulated that...

Opening the phone may open a link to a bunch of servers which may not be accessible any other way.

And don't some phones automatically brick with too many wrong codes?
First "wait 5-min"
Then "wait 15"
Then an hour, six hours, 24 hours.....

Oh and the blood test? I think it is considered a "contractual provision" of your drivers license.

But i am not a constitutional attorney....J

I have lost the foot race to huntnshoot
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
Black's Law Dictionary (US):

SELF-INCRIMINATION: Acts or declarations either as testimony at trial or prior to trial by which one implicates himself in a crime. The Fifth Amendment, U.S. Const. as well as provisions in many state constitutions and laws, prohibit the government from requiring a person to be a witness against himself involuntarily or to furnish evidence against himself.

That seems to allow for little to no ambiguity. Regardless of warrants or whatever papers the government wants to manufacture, being compelled to furnish evidence against yourself is a direct violation of the Law. And the people attempting to do it, regardless of what color they claim to wear, need to be removed post-haste, because they are proving themselves by their actions to be enemies of that Law.

There you go. Exactly. Our protections against tyranny are steadily being eroded by the powers that be.
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
Black's Law Dictionary (US):

SELF-INCRIMINATION: Acts or declarations either as testimony at trial or prior to trial by which one implicates himself in a crime. The Fifth Amendment, U.S. Const. as well as provisions in many state constitutions and laws, prohibit the government from requiring a person to be a witness against himself involuntarily or to furnish evidence against himself.

That seems to allow for little to no ambiguity. Regardless of warrants or whatever papers the government wants to manufacture, being compelled to furnish evidence against yourself is a direct violation of the Law. And the people attempting to do it, regardless of what color they claim to wear, need to be removed post-haste, because they are proving themselves by their actions to be enemies of that Law.


That's the compelling argument against it, yes, and a good one. Where does the right of the State to subpoena evidence end? It can be argued that by having legally seized a cell phone, the State has the evidence, just as they would in taking a murder weapon from an accused for forensic evaluation. If the State knew the gun was in the safe would they be able to compel the defendant to open the safe under a search warrant?

Attorneys will argue both points to death, and that's the system. I think this issue has varying shades of gray. It'll be interesting to see where it ends up.
Originally Posted by OldmanoftheSea
Oh and the blood test? I think it is considered a "contractual provision" of your drivers license.

If all that can happen when you say no to a request for blood is the loss of a driver's license, that's not a violation of your Constitutional rights for the reason you state. If, however, they get three or four large officers to force you to the ground and hold your arm out in order to get the blood against your will, that is a violation. I don't know if there are any jurisdictions which permit the latter, but some here have suggested that this is done in some places in the US.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by OldmanoftheSea
Oh and the blood test? I think it is considered a "contractual provision" of your drivers license.

If all that can happen when you say no to a request for blood is the loss of a driver's license, that's not a violation of your Constitutional rights for the reason you state. If, however, they get three or four large officers to force you to the ground and hold your arm out in order to get the blood against your will, that is a violation. I don't know if there are any jurisdictions which permit the latter, but some here have suggested that this is done in some places in the US.

Agreed.
Though if you were using the license at the time is it breech of contract?

The real devils bargain is to let the officer approach to your closed window, pull the keys from the ignition, open a sealed whiskey bottle, and drink a big slug before opening the window...

Same sort of issue. The delay game vs. The contaminated chain of evidence gambit.
Originally Posted by windridge
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
Black's Law Dictionary (US):

SELF-INCRIMINATION: Acts or declarations either as testimony at trial or prior to trial by which one implicates himself in a crime. The Fifth Amendment, U.S. Const. as well as provisions in many state constitutions and laws, prohibit the government from requiring a person to be a witness against himself involuntarily or to furnish evidence against himself.

That seems to allow for little to no ambiguity. Regardless of warrants or whatever papers the government wants to manufacture, being compelled to furnish evidence against yourself is a direct violation of the Law. And the people attempting to do it, regardless of what color they claim to wear, need to be removed post-haste, because they are proving themselves by their actions to be enemies of that Law.


That's the compelling argument against it, yes, and a good one. Where does the right of the State to subpoena evidence end? It can be argued that by having legally seized a cell phone, the State has the evidence, just as they would in taking a murder weapon from an accused for forensic evaluation. If the State knew the gun was in the safe would they be able to compel the defendant to open the safe under a search warrant?

Attorneys will argue both points to death, and that's the system. I think this issue has varying shades of gray. It'll be interesting to see where it ends up.


It seems to me like allowing judges in courts (a branch of government) to determine what powers the government has and what rights we possess in relation to that government is not the smartest way to run a legal system based on the Rule of Law and built on a foundation of Personal Liberty.

Just saying. Did the Founding Fathers ASK the King, or did they DECLARE TO the King? I know it's pretty obvious where I stand. I just can't see that anyone could be standing anywhere else without being an unprincipled scumbag or a coward. There doesn't seem to be much of a debate here, just the endless encroachment of tyranny, until principled and courageous men draw the line and punish the usurpers.
Memories are tricky. Ask Hillary.
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
It seems to me like allowing judges in courts (a branch of government) to determine what powers the government has and what rights we possess in relation to that government is not the smartest way to run a legal system based on the Rule of Law and built on a foundation of Personal Liberty.

Just saying. Did the Founding Fathers ASK the King, or did they DECLARE TO the King? I know it's pretty obvious where I stand. I just can't see that anyone could be standing anywhere else without being an unprincipled scumbag or a coward. There doesn't seem to be much of a debate here, just the endless encroachment of tyranny, until principled and courageous men draw the line and punish the usurpers.

The way the Constitution was before 1913, this was addressed by checks and balances in power distribution based on competing interests. In 1913, though, a lot was turned upside down with the 16th and 17th Amendments. To take just one of them, the 17th Amendment eliminated an important check/balance by taking state governments out of the equation with regard to the US Senate, so there was no longer a natural interest in power to limit the power of the Federal Government, and to check the power of the Supreme Court to favor the Federal Government when conflicts of interest arose. Having state governments in charge of the Senate was a powerful conservative force which extended to keeping the Supreme Court also conservative, since the Senate must confirm all appointments to the Federal bench. Post 1913, state governments have no check against Federal power. The Senate was converted to just another version of the House, elected by the general population of the states, which are more easily swayed by concerns other than limiting the power of the Federal Government. Folks running for Senate now are subjected to pressures to please the masses (that was supposed to be an interest represented by US Representatives only), rather than looking out for the interests of the state governments (vis a vis the Federal Government) that sent them there.
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