The Nazis would have lost whenever they attacked Soviet Russia. As Victor Davis Hanson said, Hitler was successful in small border wars against his neighbors and never realized that war against Russia was a different game. When he did invade Russia, his supply lines became too long and his short-range attack strategy could not destroy Soviet manufacturing far behind the lines. Later in the war, Russian forces were more mobile than German forces which relied heavily on horses. The Russians had all those American lend-lease trucks.

One of the greatest "what ifs" of all time.

And once they determined there would be no attack from the Japanese an could bring the Far Eastern divisions to bear on Germany, it was all over for Hitler.

By '42 Stalins' forces, some four million men had been wiped out and they had to start all over again with new troops! And when German forces began closing in upon Russian manufacturing, the entire manufacturing forces, including all railroad equipment was moved 1800 miles eastward!!

Western populations have often wondered why Russia is so rabid concerning defense and when one considers that they lost 20 million people...the answer becomes quite clear!!

Hindsight is always better than foresight, and that's applied equally across the board, so it's easy for us to sit here in 2020 and speculate as to what "could" have happened 80 years ago. But, I have always believed that had Hitler had some sense, the world today might be a lot different than what it is now. After the fall of France, and the ease at which it happened, he got a sense of superiority, and got greedy. Of course, there are many different paths Germany could have took, but the bottom line is that the one they did led to their defeat.

Bottom line for Germany was invade Russia or be invaded by Russia. Stalin was preparing to invade Germany when Germany invaded Russia. I don’t think Germany could have succeeded in defeating Russia but Germany probably saved all of Western Europe from Soviet socialism. If the Soviets had invaded on their timeline and terms I think the Soviets would have swept across all of Western Europe and imposed soul crushing Bolshevik socialism.
The use of the atomic bombs on the Japanese was more a demonstration and message to Stalin than a means to defeat Japan. The Japanese had already sent word that they were willing to surrender under the terms that they ultimately surrendered under before the bombs were dropped. We demanded total surrender and refused to accept terms that allowed for the continuation of the Japanese Emperor. After we dropped the bombs we accepted surrender of the Japanese with the continuation of the Emperor.

I have often wondered what would have happened if Germany had been able to conquer England.........and they came very close to doing so. With the British out of the way, they wouldn't have needed troops in either France, North Africa, or the Mediterranean. Those troops, along with the Luftwaffe, might very well have provided the boost that was needed to defeat the Soviets. Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Hitler was against Japan starting a war with the US, because he wanted to keep us neutral as long as he could.

There are so many scenarios that could have played out in WW2, and one can spend a lifetime speculating about what could have happened.

Versailles, Versailles, Versailles. 😊😊😊

The war was a setup from the outset. Germany didn't pull itself up by its bootstraps. It was Jewish bankers that funded the rebuilding of Germany, and I am sure that it was Jewish bankers who were calling the shots, Just like it was Jewish bankers calling the shots in WW1. The war was meant to decimate another generation of European youths, just as WW1 did. The winners were the Jews.

That the Soviet Union was going to attack in '41 is an alternate history, eg BS. But there had been tensions between Prussia (then Germany) and the Russian Empire for a long time. German expansion into the east had been going on for centuries. There wasn't anything new there. Germany had won the WW1 war against the Russian Empire in 1917. So they thought they could do it again, look how easy 1940 was in the west compared to 1914-1918. Seems pretty logical doesn't it.

If Germany has not attacked the Soviet Union, Colonel Klink couldn't have threatened sending Sargent Shultz to the Russian front.

had

Again, the Jews would have ensured that the Soviets attacked Germany. Wars are ALL about who is fronting the money, and why. If you don't realize that, you won't ever see reality in "history".

Frederick II was lucky he was presented in the middle of the fight with a Prussian friendly new regime in St. Petersburg. Potsdam, Brandenburg, San Souci and all were spared. Then it was on to Leuthen and a route of the Austrians, Maria Theresa, and all her allies!

Lets also not forget Hohenfriedberg

Hitler said if he knew the Russians had the T-34 he wouldn’t have attacked.
T-34 kicked panzer butt

No, it wasn’t. The Soviet’s had already attacked Europe in 1922 and it was the OFFICIAL policy of the Soviet Union to spread communist revolution worldwide by military means.

I have to find more STUPID Awards....Now it is the "Jewish Bankers" who called the shots for Hitler.

Germany made a number of mistakes that prevented them from defeating Russia. They kept changing the focus of each spring campaign. First was Moscow, then they switched to Stalingrad. They would have been more successful if they had surrounded Moscow by attacking 50 to 100 miles away from Moscow and surrounding it while destroying the railroad lines connecting the USSR.

Theres also the fact the Fins held off the Soviet
invasion of 1939, with few tanks and aircraft
(to the humiliation of the Soviets) .. Hitler would be
thinking?.. well what chance have Soviets got against
my 3.8 million men, thousands of tanks and aircraft.

Yet even Poland was not a pushover and presented
some challenges for Hitler, he was just fortunate
that Poland finally capitulated like France.

Historians love the great man in history, but if you look at history, it's surprising how consistent national interests act on history.

And some, how the great leader uses that interest!

Stalingrad was an arrogant mistake by Hitler. It had more implications than simply bleeding the German army, it showed the fallibility of Hitler.

When Germany invaded Russia, they only had half the tanks per division that they had against Poland and France. German generals wanted to get the tank strength up. It was easy to get the manpower up quickly, but German tank production couldn't double the tanks until after 1942. Had Germany waited one more year and had their tank production up, as well as more aircraft, they could have been in Moscow the first year of invasion. Moscow was the nerve center of the Russian military. Without Moscow, Russian troops could not communicate with each other. Germany could have divided and conquered the remaining Russians by the second year and been at the Urals.

Also, the Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, and Lithuainans cheered the Germans coming in as they wanted out from under Stalin. With their support it would have been easier to get the long supply lines up and running. Instead they turned their guns on them.

Declaring war on the US after they invaded Russia was also stupid. We kept England in the war and kept the Russians supplied to fight the Germans. I think 8-10,000 Shermans went to Russia as well as Jeeps and trucks. They they loved the Tommy guns for house to house fighting. We sent them food also.

Germany calculated it didn't have the oil reserves
to go much beyond late 41' with its existing tanks,
aircraft, and other vehicles... Hence the critical
[strategic] push for the Caucasus. (Case Blue)

Hitler is on record saying:

"If I don't succeed in seizing the oilfields at Maykop
and Grozny I must END the war."

So Hitler knew he was rolling the dice in his ambitious
eastern campaign.
Wagner (quartermaster General) calculated Germany
had the resources to go 500-800 km into the Ukraine
prior to Barbarossa,.. the 42' push fior oilfields in the
South was some 1600 km... they made that push with
poor-haphazard logistics and vastly insufficient
number of divisions for the strategic objectives
in mind.
============

Those oilfields were important for three reasons

- The German military needed them,
- The German nation and its annexed territories
were in desperate need of oil.
-Seizing them would deny the Soviets the oil.

It wasn't just the oil fields, but remember Germany starved during WW1 . The grain fields of the Ukraine were very important as well. Stalingrad was protection on the flank and would cut Volga oil transportation .There were rail links and tanks could drive there. Taking Stalingrad would have worked if it was taken on the march, instead the battle ground on from the summer.

Yes, Hitler had the strategic objectives of
Ukraine r for food supply and Caucasus Oil.

Hitler was desperately sourcing food from annexed
territories to feed his army.. and getting his army
to supplement by living off the land in the east.
(which meant stealing from the poor civilians)



Case Blue didnt necessarily include taking Stalingrad
when gruppe B- 6th Army were attempting to form the
protective flank line to Astrakhan.

Hitler did however suggest destroying Stalingrad factories
with artillery .. but I read Paulus told Hitler he could take
Stalingrad 'on the march'..!!

Gruppe B (6th army, Hoth 4th Panzer, XXIX Corps)
had all been battered prior to Stalingrad.
Paulus then got reinforcements for 6th army, but didn't
get the much needed fuel and ammunition.

Occupying Stalingrad was an afterthought by Hitler,
and Paulus began such objective with just a few days
worth of fuel and ammunition.

Stalin drove the machine to superior (unrivaled) tank production. Something like 2,200/mo vs Germany's estimates of 500/month..
In addition to underestimating the T-32(?).
And the determination of the Russian troops/commanders.

And of course Hitler's ADD played a role.. had he not waited so late in the season....
Much might have been different....
Divine providence, perhaps.

Hitler was not planning on invading the Soviet Union in 1941. After the fall of France, they actually converted some wartime production back to civilian products and cut shifts across the board. One reason Stalin was so surprised in June of 41 was because the Germans were so seemingly unprepared at every level. Once the knockout blow failed, the Germans were done. In fact, that they didn’t end up in a disastrous retreat back to Germany in the winter of 41-42 ala Napoleon was a minor miracle.

The greatest "What If" of WWII is what if Rommel had been in charge?

Hitler was well aware of the German population's lack of support during the final years of the Great War. Britain went on to total war economy in '39, US in '42.

It could have been a Retreat From Moscow if Hitler had listened to his generals, instead he said stay put and big Russian offensive failed. Because it was failure, it didn't get much fanfare. It wore down the armies on both sides.

Very interesting viewpoint, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you were entirely correct.

Actually it was a huge pile of garbage. Sherman's lit them up in Korea pretty good.

The war would have been over sooner for Germany.

The wehrmacht could have took Moscow and it would have made little difference. Just ask Napoleon.

When did Japan ever offer to surrender under any terms before we dropped the bombs? They had already told their people to prepare to die for their Emperor. To sharpen their bamboo spears and form up their Banzai suicide battalions. Operation “Ketsu-Go.”-
Japanese slogan in the summer of 1945. To not lose "face" was more important than hundreds and hundreds of thousands of lives.

Whatever mistakes they made I'm glad they made them.

It took the USA, England and various allies from late 1942 through spring 1945 to kick the Germans out of North Africa and drive them back across Italy and Europe - we were still slogging up Italy mountain by mountain and river by river on VE day - and we never fought more than a fraction of the German army. I really can't imagine how much longer the war in Europe would have taken and how many more casualties we would have taken facing those extra 100+ divisions plus the Luftwaffe that were engaged on the Eastern front.

I've heard it said that American steel, British intelligence and Russian blood won the war. That mix is okay with me.

Declaring war on the US after they invaded Russia was also stupid. We kept England in the war and kept the Russians supplied to fight the Germans. I think 8-10,000 Shermans went to Russia as well as Jeeps and trucks. They they loved the Tommy guns for house to house fighting. We sent them food also.

not so fast. those shermans sent to russia had thompson's in them, but NO ammo. Besides they had a perfectly aedequate smg already in service.
those thompsons sat in russia for many years, eventually were moved to croatia, and then repatriated here.
I was at a business in tucson a number of years ago looking at those brand new thompsons being cut and turned into parts kits.
a parts kit at the time minus the "bad" parts was about 800 dollars or so as i remember.
i ended up buying a thompson barrel with a cutts compensator on it for not much money.

another comment, i see the word germany being used pretty loosely, in combination with the prussia kingdom.
germany as a country didn't exist until the late 1800's.
it was prussia that butted up against the russian conbination. my family were prussian, and along the baltic, re gdansk, and in pomerania.
still trying to find where the ancestral lands were before confiscation.

thank you for that robert, makes me want to get out and march in the street. how could i forget hohenfriedberg, given great great papa's history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Heinrich_von_Wedel
lots of people don't know that a lot of northern poland was once prussian, until the end of WWII when they disemboweled prussia.

Interesting videos, thanks.

Steven Bungay in his book The Most Dangerous Enemy”

https://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Enemy-History-Britain/dp/1781314950

makes similar points about the Luftwaffe on the eve of the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe had suffered significant manpower and logistic losses in the campaign to take France, was a tired force at the outset, and the British far outstripped them in aircraft production.

Bungay points out too that the German practice of elevating Aces to superstar status could inhibit fighter staffel effectiveness as the emphasis on at least some missions was on affording the likes of a Molders or a Galland more opportunities to run up their scores.

The T-34 has a great on paper rep, but a tanker ,Chieftain, did a vid on Inside the Hatch on the T-34 . His view was it wasn't a great tank to fight with. What it was, was cheap to make.

Hitler went into little France with a large military
3.6 million, 2500 tanks, 5600 aircraft
then into the vast spances of the east with
a military manpower force not much bigger,
more tanks and artillery, but not more aircraft.




Everyone likes a hero, but the detriment of such
propaganda was that the bulk of pilots were not
so gifted yet many would try to emulate their
hero figures and get killed prematurely, thus
accelerating the loss of pilots...The personal
competitive nature of fighter pilots also drove
up the loss rate.

You should mention horses, between trains and horse drawn wagons was how their logistics moved..

Not really funny but I wrote a summation a while back of "The Forgotten Soldier" about fighting on the Eastern Front.

This place sure is big.
It's really hot and dusty here.
The Russians have a lot of artillery.
We mow down 1000 of them and 1000 more come at us.

This place sure is big.
It's really cold here.
We're hungry.
The Russians have a lot of artillery.
We mow down 1000 of them and 1000 more come at us.

Holy crap this place is big.
It's really, really cold here.
We're really hungry.
The Russians have a hell of a lot of artillery.
We mow down 1000 of them and 1000 more come at us.

Holy crap this place is fricken huge
It's really hot and dusty here.
We're really hungry.
The Russians have a hell of a lot of artillery.
We mow down 1000 of them and 1000 more come at us.

Holy crap this place is fricken huge
It's really, really, really cold.
We're really, really hungry.
JFC the Russians have a lot of artillery. I mean, a whole lot of artillery.
We mow down 1000 of them and 1000 more come at us.

The End.

The Germans were way under motorized for
Blitzkrieg in the east. Only about 20%. of the
army was such...and more wouldn't help coz
they didn't have the oil.
A train could transport the equal of some
1000+lorries... and they had the coal to fuel
them... but the management of the rail system
was a nightmare with trains tangled / banked up
on lines unable to reach destinations toward the
advancing front...operating at about 50% of rail
capacity.

When Case Blue failed in later part of 42" the
Germans were fortunate that it coincided with
the train backlog being cleared. There was so
much fuel on those trains that it allowed the
Germans to keep fighting for a number of months,
otherwise they would have been screwed.

When Case Blue started, at one point Paulus
had to wait two weeks for fuel, and 1st Panzer
( gruppe A headed for the Caucasus) ran out
of fuel..When 4th Panzer came to assist Paulus
in his push toward Stalingrad, it had supply issues
and was restricted in how it could help.

Hitler put enormous emphasis on how vital
success was for gruppe A/B to succeed in
Case Blue/Edelweiss or else Germany was out
of the war, yet even such a high priority 72 div.
taskforce could not be properly supplied.

Horses were slow and vulnerable to attack,
they didn't have enough of them and fueling
them was an issue, as fodder like gasoline
and ammunition had to be transported coz
the lanscape did not offer much.

=======

Spearhead Panzers/armored units that could
advance many km in short time, having to rely
on critical supplies by horse and infantry on foot
to hold and consolidate gains made... Hmmm

Hitler told others it would work, saying the soviets
were so weak that they would totally collapse after
Germany kicked their door in.

But when soviets showed strong resistance and
German intelligence and logistics failed.. things
went pear shaped for Hitler's rather audacious
roll of the dice dreams of conquest.

Russia used a wider gauge rail track to force any invader to reset a lot of railroad track.

What about the 6 million that went up the smoke stacks? Can't see how they were winners.

There you go again...messing up the antisemitic world with truth.

Jewish bankers could have been a problem for them in WWI, but not WWII. Think he got his wars mixed up.

Ahh, Maria Theresa. What a worthwhile rabbit hole of historical reading.


PS- She was the original Matchmaker of the gentry.

They never considered not having air superiority, either.

Gotta figure ethnic snobbery into all of this. Hitler weren’t joking about Germans being the master race. I grew up in a still lily-White England, we thought of each other as races.

Prob’ly Hitler and an awful lot of Germans thought they could kick the a$$es of any number of Slavs, logistics be damned.

In the same way Germany? Beat England? Even tho they were rightfully scared most Brits in their heart of hearts couldn’t see that happening.

And of course them little yellow Japs could never be a serious threat to America, meanwhile the Japanese fighting spirit was sufficient to defeat any number of those soft, cowardly, decadent Americans.

A part of reality as all parties perceived it in the 1930’s.

My Dad landed with first American troops in Europe. Spent whole war in combat. He said in an equal fight, Germans always won. In A battle 3 t o 1 Germans, he said they won. He said the only reason we won is that we overwhelmed them with more of everything.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/wwii-tank-engine-longevity.50254/

Here's some really interesting thread about tank engine longevity, and it might surprise folks about how short a life tank engines had, especially the German heavy tanks. The transmissions weren't too good, either.

By 1944, Germans had some war experience, or their sergeants did.

TIK, on YouTube, is doing Stalingrad. If you are interested in the battle, it a worthwhile watch.

After Normandy,the Canadian troops had the task of clearing the low counties , then into Germany. A lot of the time the odds were even. This was one of Eisenhower and Montgomery blunders, It slowed the opening of the port of Antwerp .Montgomery even said so after the war. Dad complained the Germans when they retreated had always mapped out their range.

Nine parts at over 40 min. each, I viewed earlier
in the year.. Combat casualty rate on approach
to the city (eg: July/Aug) vs actually taking the
city in urban fighting is interesting... Paulus was
receiving the lowest rate of reinforcements
when casualty rate was the highest per month.
additionally, monthly reinforcement numbers
were lower than the loss rate.

The airlift to supply the encircled 6th is interesting
in that von Richthofen was upfront and said the
idea is not realistically achievable... but it seems
OKH kept stringing Paulus along with the idea.



And considering German divisions at Ardennes
were well under strength in men, machines, supplies.